Over to you crypto fanboys

[Heng]

1 hour ago, The Cipher said:

This thread has gone on long enough that I kind of wonder if it would be fun to meet up for a beer coffee.

 

But given the recent price action, we'd better do it soon while I can still afford one.

 

Excellent point Cipher.   In crypto, never meet up with anyone, except maybe if you're a developer (and I doubt any of us are).    You wouldn't have meetings with strangers where everyone brings a random bag of cash, right?

 

I'm of course not implying that you're one of those crypto kidnapping types.  Newbies feel free to Google that.  It's a thing.

[The Cipher]

57 minutes ago, Heng said:

Excellent point Cipher.   In crypto, never meet up with anyone, except maybe if you're a developer (and I doubt any of us are).    You wouldn't have meetings with strangers where everyone brings a random bag of cash, right?

 

I'm of course not implying that you're one of those crypto kidnapping types.  Newbies feel free to Google that.  It's a thing.

 

GIVE ME YOUR PRIVATE KEYS! GIVE THEM TO ME!!!!

[Heng]

RIP McAfee, hope you took your private keys with you.   

[GrandPapillon]

and another exchange disappear after an alleged "hack" ????

 

https://www.engadget.com/africrypt-bitcoin-disappearance-174636634.html

 

Founders of South African Bitcoin exchange disappear after $3.6 billion 'hack'

[GrandPapillon]

8 hours ago, Heng said:

RIP McAfee, hope you took your private keys with you.   

gone so soon, didn't have a chance to cut his own pen*s for bitcoins fans ????

[fdsa]

1 hour ago, GrandPapillon said:

and another exchange disappear after an alleged "hack" ????

 

https://www.engadget.com/africrypt-bitcoin-disappearance-174636634.html

 

Founders of South African Bitcoin exchange disappear after $3.6 billion 'hack'

 

 

 

 

traders should have accepted their risks, and just an another reminder to the general cryptocurrency public:

not in your wallet = not your coins

 

 

 

 

[mjnaus]

4 hours ago, GrandPapillon said:

and another exchange disappear after an alleged "hack" ????

 

 

Since you're posting this here, it's save to assume you, somehow, thinks this reflects poorly on the crypto assets that were stolen. How so? 

 

If a bank gets robbed, or a bank employee runs off with a bank's funds, surely you wouldn't make the same argument?

[Heng]

I wouldn't assume that.   Lots of people are true crime enthusiasts.  

[GrandPapillon]

3 hours ago, mjnaus said:

 

Since you're posting this here, it's save to assume you, somehow, thinks this reflects poorly on the crypto assets that were stolen. How so? 

 

If a bank gets robbed, or a bank employee runs off with a bank's funds, surely you wouldn't make the same argument?

banks have insurance, and are regulated, hence why putting money there is not a dumb move

 

but putting money into some "unregulated" custodian run by thugs and criminals, some people are really asking for it ????

[mjnaus]

6 hours ago, GrandPapillon said:

banks have insurance, and are regulated, hence why putting money there is not a dumb move

 

but putting money into some "unregulated" custodian run by thugs and criminals, some people are really asking for it ????

 

Proper exchanges DO have insurance. But I guess we shouldn't let facts get in the way of a nice, uninformed rant ????

 

- Coinbase: https://help.coinbase.com/en/coinbase/other-topics/legal-policies/how-is-coinbase-insured

- Gemini: https://support.gemini.com/hc/en-us/articles/205823016-Are-my-funds-insured-

 

Anyway, I couldn't agree more with your second statement. Just as one wouldn't put his/her fiat funds in some bank run by warlords in Somalia. That would be, as you'd like to say "asking for it". 

 

So I guess we are in agreement that this got nothing to do with crypto. Leaving your assets in any unsafe, uninsured place wouldn't be a smart thing to do, no matter what the asset in question is. 

[GrandPapillon]

7 hours ago, mjnaus said:

 

Proper exchanges DO have insurance. But I guess we shouldn't let facts get in the way of a nice, uninformed rant ????

 

- Coinbase: https://help.coinbase.com/en/coinbase/other-topics/legal-policies/how-is-coinbase-insured

- Gemini: https://support.gemini.com/hc/en-us/articles/205823016-Are-my-funds-insured-

 

Anyway, I couldn't agree more with your second statement. Just as one wouldn't put his/her fiat funds in some bank run by warlords in Somalia. That would be, as you'd like to say "asking for it". 

 

So I guess we are in agreement that this got nothing to do with crypto. Leaving your assets in any unsafe, uninsured place wouldn't be a smart thing to do, no matter what the asset in question is. 

when I was saying insurance, I was thinking FDIC, not some private scheme full of exceptions (hacking will not be covered) and conditions. Those accounts are not insured and not secured.

 

the dirty capitalists in banking might be dirty, but at least they are running something that works, and without it, you wouldn't have credit cards, technology, large production of energy and global travelling.

 

You would still be living like in the 19th century. And without banking and the dirty energy industry, forget about mining cryptos, it wouldn't be possible ????

 

so in short, cryptos needs dirty banking to live, without the old system, everything collapse ????

[mjnaus]

3 hours ago, GrandPapillon said:

the dirty capitalists in banking might be dirty, but at least they are running something that works, and without it, you wouldn't have credit cards, technology, large production of energy and global travelling.

 

 

I never said anything about traditional banks not "working", did I? Although one could, of course, very easily make the argument that banks do indeed NOT work in many cases. Just ask any of those millions (actually billions) of people who do not have access to banking services. 

 

The fact that the current banking system works for you is great, for you. However, that does not mean that the current system is not extremely inefficient and occupied by layers of rent-seeking middle men who control what you can and cannot do with your money and who has access to this archaic system. 

 

If history teaches us anything, it is that inefficient systems eventually get replaced by something better, and finance will not be an exception. Whether that's crypto in its current form, in a future form or something completely different remains to be seen. 

[GrandPapillon]

that's what you and the millennial generation is missing, the current system is ultra efficient, and the middle men are necessary to make this process ultra efficient, without them, there wouldn't be any incentive to make things run smooth. Nobody works for free. How will they pay for your iPhones? ????

 

again the millennials expects everything to be free, without the work, it doesn't work that way. The culture of "likes" like it was a technical validation of things working is just an illusion.

 

Likewise, the cryptos dreamers are confused between operational efficiency and some extra cool "tech stack" to do simple tasks. It's not efficiency, it's complete waste. Cryptos are waste of physical energy and human energy. You are not going to change the world and make it better with that attitude, au contraire, you are going to accelerate its collapse. Maybe that's what this generation really want at the end ????

[The Cipher]

4 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

that's what you and the millennial generation is missing, the current system is ultra efficient, and the middle men are necessary to make this process ultra efficient

 

It is with some trepidation that I let myself get drawn back into this thread, but the quoted statement is not really correct.

 

Rentier capitalism in general is on the rise and, as the circulatory system of the modern economy, financial services is one of the worst offenders. There are many different ways that this creates inefficiencies in fees, as well as in capital and talent allocation. But I don't intend to write an essay. If interested, you can read a little bit about that here.

 

Blockchain technologies and decentralized finance do contain the seeds of possibility for creating a more efficient and more fair system. Although whether the space will ultimately be able to deliver on that promise is uncertain (probably what you guys ought to be debating).

 

For anyone who's worked in high finance, it's not hard to see crypto innovations improving clunky and expensive back office tasks at the very least. And the very heavy push that every major firm is making into increasing automation does mesh well with some of the signature innovations of the crypto space (like smart contracts).

 

If you still need more proof that the current system is not maximally efficient - this past week the Bank of International Settlements (BIS) released a report where they essentially said that adoption of CBDCs is necessary because state currencies would inevitably fall behind private sector offerings without them.

[fdsa]

I think that we are close to the bottom at this moment, so:

 

BUY!

 

(NFA)

[GrandPapillon]

2 hours ago, The Cipher said:

 

Blockchain technologies and decentralized finance do contain the seeds of possibility for creating a more efficient and more fair system. Although whether the space will ultimately be able to deliver on that promise is uncertain (probably what you guys ought to be debating).

 

For anyone who's worked in high finance, it's not hard to see crypto innovations improving clunky and expensive back office tasks at the very least. And the very heavy push that every major firm is making into increasing automation does mesh well with some of the signature innovations of the crypto space (like smart contracts).

 

DeFi is a myth and not feasible for one simple reason: compliance.

 

I work in "high finances" if there is such a thing, and what you refer to "clunky" and "expensive" backoffice tasks are actually processes and tracing requirements that regulators are asking us to do. If you think the middle men is responsible for the "heavy" side of the banking infrastructure, you need to think again. They are not. Banks are lazy and would be more than happy doing 1/3 of the work, even if it meant a small fee cut. The problem is that in the last 10 years, compliance work has increased 10x. The government wants to know everything, every little tasks you do, and more. They want to know everything about your clients and you need to justify every transactions. If you don't, you are a criminal.

 

Even if cryptos were super energy efficient, and were NetZero, that wouldn't solve the problem you are trying to fix. The issue is global transparency and global compliance, and cryptos is everything but transparent and compliant.

 

Hence why it will never succeed apart from being a PoC and a speculating vehicles for small traders and a store of value for criminals ????

[The Cipher]

8 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

I work in "high finances" if there is such a thing

 

I apologize for this comment, but it sounds like you work back office, which isn't quite the same thing.

 

23 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

what you refer to "clunky" and "expensive" backoffice tasks are actually processes and tracing requirements that regulators are asking us to do. If you think the middle men is responsible for the "heavy" side of the banking infrastructure, you need to think again. They are not. Banks are lazy and would be more than happy doing 1/3 of the work, even if it meant a small fee cut. The problem is that in the last 10 years, compliance work has increased 10x. The government wants to know everything, every little tasks you do, and more. They want to know everything about your clients and you need to justify every transactions.

 

I agonized a bit about how to write this comment. Because my intention here is not to come across as an a**hole. I'm sorry if anything I write after this is offends; that's not my intention.

 

So it's true that back and middle offices have been up-staffing up lately due to additional regulatory burden. But it's also true that every c-suite manager in a financial firm is looking for ways to cut that expense ASAP.

 

If you work at a fund or bank of any size, you know that there's a major push towards automation of repetitive tasks. Every back office is trying to automate as much as possible in order to avoid adding headcount - although they will never explicitly say this of course.

 

Back and middle offices aren't revenue generating for firms and are generally seen as expensive fixed costs on the income statement (prime candidates for cost cuts). Beyond that, the reason they're called clunky is because they're also a source of headaches for firms due to human and systems error, which at times has resulted in large fines. That's why every exec wants to automate it as much as possible, with the eventual goal of full automation.

 

Again, if you work in finance in any capacity you know that I'm telling the truth.

 

How does this relate to crypto? Well...crypto pioneered a system called a blockchain public ledger. Transactions that go in there can be visible to third parties and are immutable on the blockchain. If the tasks performed by the chain in those links sound like they overlap with some of the traditional BO tasks - let's just say that the guys in the c-suite have probably noticed that too.

 

In fact - here's the European Investment Bank (EIB) using the Ethereum blockchain to issue a bond. I wonder why they tried that ????.

 

There's a discussion to be had over how much this will impact the values of the crypto assets floating around out there. I don't know the answer to that. Some financial institutions are experimenting with building out their own blockchains - JPM is one that I know. But will the industry eventually settle on use of something like Ethereum? Maybe.

 

Does this mean that someone should leave their back office job ASAP? Well...not necessarily. They're still ok jobs and automation is going slower than execs would like. Folks near the end of their careers might be able to ride it out the last few years to retirement. But I wouldn't count on a lot of those roles surviving the next 10-20 years.

[GrandPapillon]

9 minutes ago, The Cipher said:

 

I apologize for this comment, but it sounds like you work back office, which isn't quite the same thing.

 

nope, front office, but for compliance reasons I have to know and understand what's going on in the backoffice and the middle office. Regulators no longer accept that you didn't know what was going on and you need to be aware of the full process these days. Obviously understanding the process doesn't mean actually doing the hard work of back office.

[GrandPapillon]

26 minutes ago, The Cipher said:

 

I apologize for this comment, but it sounds like you work back office, which isn't quite the same thing.

 

 

I agonized a bit about how to write this comment. Because my intention here is not to come across as an a**hole. I'm sorry if anything I write after this is offends; that's not my intention.

 

So it's true that back and middle offices have been up-staffing up lately due to additional regulatory burden. But it's also true that every c-suite manager in a financial firm is looking for ways to cut that expense ASAP.

 

If you work at a fund or bank of any size, you know that there's a major push towards automation of repetitive tasks. Every back office is trying to automate as much as possible in order to avoid adding headcount - although they will never explicitly say this of course.

 

Back and middle offices aren't revenue generating for firms and are generally seen as expensive fixed costs on the income statement (prime candidates for cost cuts). Beyond that, the reason they're called clunky is because they're also a source of headaches for firms due to human and systems error, which at times has resulted in large fines. That's why every exec wants to automate it as much as possible, with the eventual goal of full automation.

 

the automation process is already there, but that doesn't stop adding more body counts, because regulators increase the burden of compliance every year, and systems have to be "re-organized" constantly to address new compliance and regulatory issue.

 

Automation works when requirements are stable. In banking for the last 15 years, requirements have changed dramatically and are not stable, not because we don't want them to be stable, but because global regulators and most governments are putting in place new stricter rules every year that make the whole thing slower. That stability can never be achieved because no matter what we do or comply with, global regulators always want more. They are the ones to blame, not the greedy bankers, like "predators" and "vultures" they are very efficient in their roles ????

 

To think the whole issue comes down to "automation" and "tools" is just naive, because we didn't need cryptos to automate things. Before regulators became crazy with new rules, a lot of things were running smoothly in the back office and middle office, process automation was doing fine.

 

that's what millennials don't get, and they weren't there, so they wouldn't know, their ignorance is what get them at the end.

 

You think using a hammer is the solution to dig holes, and I am telling you it's not, no matter how cool or pretty that hammer is ????

 

You want to dig holes, use that dirty old shovel ????

[GrandPapillon]

29 minutes ago, The Cipher said:

 

In fact - here's the European Investment Bank (EIB) using the Ethereum blockchain to issue a bond. I wonder why they tried that ????.

 

they tried that because they are cynical and using buzz words and new tech to get mentioned in the press and get the attention of investors for a "boring" product, it's really that simple ????

 

all these are PoC and gadgets for global organizations, they use it as PR. We had the same tech buzz words and hopes back in 2000 discussing the revolutionary nature of XML/BXML and how it was going to revolutionize "trade" and "banking" for "automation" and "better efficiency" ????

 

it never did, it actually made things worse, hence why we have JSON now ????

[Susco]

2 hours ago, fdsa said:

I think that we are close to the bottom at this moment, so:

 

BUY!

 

(NFA)

 

Yes it's going in the right direction.

 

In fact it is RED hot again.

 

[The Cipher]

I'm not sure what benefit there would be in me going further with this other than to argue for argument's sake.

[Heng]

4 hours ago, The Cipher said:

I'm not sure what benefit there would be in me going further with this other than to argue for argument's sake.

 

That's the only reason I'm here.   Just killing time until it's travel time again and the ski slopes open.   

[The Cipher]

I still think a meetup would be fun and an interesting life experience for me personally. If pubs were allowed open it'd probably make for a wild and wacky night out. But clearly I'm alone in that sentiment lol.

 

(I'm not a kidnapper, I swear).

[mjnaus]

10 hours ago, The Cipher said:

I'm not sure what benefit there would be in me going further with this other than to argue for argument's sake.

 

At some point you just gotta stop feeding the trolls my friend ???? I do a lot of work in the crypto space and fortunately get to have daily discussions with both proponents and opponents who do have a solid understanding of the industry and, especially the opponents, who bring actual issues and challenges into the discussions (unlike the regurgitated rhetoric the TV "finance experts" come up with). 

 

I actually would be very happy to meet up, however I am leaving to Europe next week and won't be back until early next year (possibly later depending on how long it takes for Thailand to get it's <deleted> together). 

[The Cipher]

5 hours ago, mjnaus said:

I actually would be very happy to meet up

 

????

 

5 hours ago, mjnaus said:

however I am leaving to Europe next week and won't be back until early next year (possibly later depending on how long it takes for Thailand to get it's <deleted> together). 

 

Have a safe trip home and enjoy the summer! I'll probably be heading back to North America sometime in July/August but intend to be back here in the winter (assuming I can make the schedule with my day job work).

 

Feel free to DM me when you're back if you're still interested in grabbing a beer/coffee!

[fdsa]

a bit more fun for you guys:

Quote

StakeHound, the second biggest ETH 2.0 staking pool lost their users' private keys. 38,178 ETH (~$75m) is lost forever.

 

BS from Stakehound "it's not our fault, it's Fireblocks!" : https://stakehound.com/blog-post/fireblocks-eth-2-key-management-incident/

 

BS from Fireblocks "it's not out fault, it's Stakehound's!": https://www.fireblocks.com/blog/stakehound-eth-2-0-event/

 

and one more reminder to everyone: not in your wallet = not your coins

[Caldera]

29 minutes ago, fdsa said:

and one more reminder to everyone: not in your wallet = not your coins

 

You really cannot repeat that message often enough, it's shocking how many people don't understand that.

[GrandPapillon]

amazing, but transferring your cryptos from the exchange to your offline wallet every time you complete a trade sounds a bit like a pain, and very cumbersome

 

It's like asking for your shares certificates everytime you buy a stock, and then resend your certificates when you sell

 

if you are an active crypto trader with dozens in your portfolio, that doesn't sound very convenient for something as revolutionary and high tech as cryptos ????

 

[mjnaus]

1 minute ago, GrandPapillon said:

amazing, but transfering your cryptos from the exchange to your offline wallet every time you complete a trade sounds a bit like a pain, and very cubborsome

 

It's like asking for your shares certificates everytime you buy a stock, and then resend your certificates when you sell

 

if you are an active crypto trader with dozens in your portfolio, that doesn't sound very convenient for something as revolutionary and high tech as cyrptos ????

 

Exchanges are only needed as an on-ramp. Once you have your crypto assets, you can simply trade directly from your wallet and there's zero need for an exchange until you decide you want turn your crypto back into fiat.