The true cost of paradise.

[jomtienisgood]

1 hour ago, abrahamzvi said:

I am happy for your Lady and kids. But, you have not contradicted anything I said. As a matter of fact, you are contradicting your own statements. In one post you are saying that the government should stop spending money on..... and spend more on... and then you confirm that Thais (I assume that your Lady and kids are Thais) enjoy free health insurance without paying taxes, which just confirms what I said.

I think it's not entirely free. I suppose they are in title to the 30Thb program... And this, normally, also is limited to the Province where they are registered . and doesn't cover 100%  

[Leaver]

13 hours ago, possum1931 said:

Yes, but why is a guy with only a Military Academy education, who was never voted in by an electorate become the PM? There can't have been lawyers involved, Oh! Wait!! Or maybe you are referring to western countries politicians.

 

The real concern is, he got voted in, without really getting voted in, thus, Thailand is now under a dictatorship, with no pathway to real democracy in the future.

 

Of course, it's still perfectly fine to buy property and invest in Thailand.  ????

[moontang]

I repatriated to the US and took advantage of open enrollment on the Marketplace...1511 per month..silver plan..got a subsidy for the entire amount, which creates its own hurdles..but very doable.  No preexisting conditions either.  I think the 500 is accurate..what you don't spend on premiums should be saved for deductibles and other emergencies.  Getting money from the Thais?  Yeah, right..and your GF was just a cashier...lol.

[NoshowJones]

7 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

The real concern is, he got voted in, without really getting voted in, thus, Thailand is now under a dictatorship, with no pathway to real democracy in the future.

 

Of course, it's still perfectly fine to buy property and invest in Thailand.  ????

Yes, it is only the virus that is stopping the street protests, so who knows what might happen further down the line, but I will say one thing, if Thailand was the same when I first came to live as it is now, I would never have come, every so often you read here in Thaivisa about expats still wanting to come and live here, how can anyone be so deluded, anyone who comes to live in a country ruled by the military must be off their heads.

[BritManToo]

13 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

but I will say one thing, if Thailand was the same when I first came to live as it is now, I would never have come,

Agreed, closing all the hooker bars has made living here less attractive.

[moontang]

16 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

Yes, it is only the virus that is stopping the street protests, so who knows what might happen further down the line, but I will say one thing, if Thailand was the same when I first came to live as it is now, I would never have come, every so often you read here in Thaivisa about expats still wanting to come and live here, how can anyone be so deluded, anyone who comes to live in a country ruled by the military must be off their heads.

Sadly true.  It dies seem like every great place gets ruined one way or another..but an entire country and culture?  I was having a poolside conversation at a Laughlin resort/casino near the end of 2013.  The guy called it TIREDLAND..declaring the fun was over...I proceeded to move to LOS for seven years.  I recently recalled his remarks...took me 8 years to realize he was spot on....the currency scam alone should be a DQ.

[jomtienisgood]

2 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Agreed, closing all the hooker bars has made living here less attractive.

And picking them up on the street more dangerous. 

[Leaver]

8 hours ago, possum1931 said:

Yes, it is only the virus that is stopping the street protests, so who knows what might happen further down the line, but I will say one thing, if Thailand was the same when I first came to live as it is now, I would never have come, every so often you read here in Thaivisa about expats still wanting to come and live here, how can anyone be so deluded, anyone who comes to live in a country ruled by the military must be off their heads.

 

A holiday in Thailand was Thailand's best advertisement as a potential retirement destination for tourists.

 

You could see pre covid the decline in western tourists here, for a multitude of reasons that have already been discussed.

 

The numbers of retiring expats to Thailand will also decline in the future, which will have a significant impact on the property market in many of the tourist areas, not to mention, they keep building.  

 

Then, you have the unstable government to consider.  

 

There are many expats trapped here now, due to having money tied up in a property or business, or both, also emotional ties.  

 

Covid aside, I could leave tomorrow with no financial loss, and in recent times, many expats have said to me they envy my position, as they are no longer so happy here.  

[NoshowJones]

24 minutes ago, Leaver said:

 

A holiday in Thailand was Thailand's best advertisement as a potential retirement destination for tourists.

 

You could see pre covid the decline in western tourists here, for a multitude of reasons that have already been discussed.

 

The numbers of retiring expats to Thailand will also decline in the future, which will have a significant impact on the property market in many of the tourist areas, not to mention, they keep building.  

 

Then, you have the unstable government to consider.  

 

There are many expats trapped here now, due to having money tied up in a property or business, or both, also emotional ties.  

 

Covid aside, I could leave tomorrow with no financial loss, and in recent times, many expats have said to me they envy my position, as they are no longer so happy here.  

You have just summed up everything I have been saying. Thanks.

[Fat is a type of crazy]

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

 

A holiday in Thailand was Thailand's best advertisement as a potential retirement destination for tourists.

 

You could see pre covid the decline in western tourists here, for a multitude of reasons that have already been discussed.

 

The numbers of retiring expats to Thailand will also decline in the future, which will have a significant impact on the property market in many of the tourist areas, not to mention, they keep building.  

 

Then, you have the unstable government to consider.  

 

There are many expats trapped here now, due to having money tied up in a property or business, or both, also emotional ties.  

 

Covid aside, I could leave tomorrow with no financial loss, and in recent times, many expats have said to me they envy my position, as they are no longer so happy here.  

I am interested why you feel that way. I am looking to retire in Thailand in a few years.

 

To be honest I can't see that Thai governments have been a bastion of democracy for some time so it's a bit same same. I would have thought less tourists in some ways make it more fun for expats. 

I can understand if someone has a business in Thailand affected by covid but that's a world wide thing. I thought most retirees would be living off income from overseas so it would generally be OK.

Would they want to go back home or somewhere else. I haven't heard that property prices have dropped a lot so they could sell up. Maybe units in some locations are not doing so good. I am wondering what makes the expats not happy other than the covid factor which hopefully will be short term from here.  

I think there are probably a lot of people who, for over a year, have been waiting and watching Thailand youtube videos and reading this and some are talking  to their girlfriends by Line and will be keen to go to Thailand. Lot of Australians. Think of the Chinese and Indians. Maybe being there you forget how good it can be.. or maybe I forget it's not that special and too hot. 

[Leaver]

1 hour ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

I am interested why you feel that way. I am looking to retire in Thailand in a few years.

 

To be honest I can't see that Thai governments have been a bastion of democracy for some time so it's a bit same same. I would have thought less tourists in some ways make it more fun for expats. 

I can understand if someone has a business in Thailand affected by covid but that's a world wide thing. I thought most retirees would be living off income from overseas so it would generally be OK.

Would they want to go back home or somewhere else. I haven't heard that property prices have dropped a lot so they could sell up. Maybe units in some locations are not doing so good. I am wondering what makes the expats not happy other than the covid factor which hopefully will be short term from here.  

I think there are probably a lot of people who, for over a year, have been waiting and watching Thailand youtube videos and reading this and some are talking  to their girlfriends by Line and will be keen to go to Thailand. Lot of Australians. Think of the Chinese and Indians. Maybe being there you forget how good it can be.. or maybe I forget it's not that special and too hot. 

 

I could write a very long post addressing various issues, but will make this post somewhat brief, yet quite direct.

 

Firstly, and this is important, have you been anywhere else to compare Thailand to for retirement?  Sadly, many haven't, and openly sing the praises of Thailand, yet have not been anywhere else to compare destinations.

 

I am not suggesting you should not retire in Thailand, I have, and I am happy here, but it's no secret on this forum that Vietnam is my Plan B.  The moment the Thai government gives me any grief, I am off to Vietnam.  Of course, I will come back to Thailand for several months of the year, as a tourists.  To this end, I don't really care who, or what the Thai government does, but I do feel for the Thai people.  I can only see rising tensions and protests here over a prolonged period of time, post covid.  How do you have a military coup to overthrow the past military coup?  It really is at the dictatorship stage here now.

 

Covid aside, Thailand in 2021 is vastly different than the Thailand of the 90's.  Speaking with older retirees, they tell me the steady rise in the cost of living, and more recently poor exchange rates, has impacted their lifestyle considerably.  These were average western retired expats, not rich, but not poor.  They bought properties here, with many of them trying to now sell in order to raise funds, but have been unable to sell for years.  They are now trapped in Thailand, and trapped in their current lifestyle.  

 

By all means retire to Thailand, however, I would suggest be very careful with your financial decisions and relationship decisions. When you are retired, if you blow your retirement funds, or tie them up, it's difficult to go back to work and start again.  You really only have one shot at a happy retirement with the money you have saved over your working life.

 

I am not suggesting my way of doing things is the right way, each to their own, but I didn't work hard all my life to lose my freedom in a 3rd World Country.  I make Thailand work for me, not me work for Thailand. 

 

For me, the saying, "rent is dead money" is not true in Thailand.  I use an agent for my visa.  My 800k baht is back in my home country earning around 6% instead of 1% in a Thai bank.  It earns way more than the cost of the agent, and it remains out of the Thai banking system, and firmly in my control.   Likewise, I am currently renting a decent condo that the money to buy it, left back in my home country earning around 6%, more than covers the rent each month.  With covid, rents will just get lower and lower, but that's discussion for another time. 

 

You have probably heard the saying "make your money in your home country, spend it in Thailand" or words to that effect.  I adhere to that.  The words "investing" and "Thailand" in the same sentence make me laugh.  

 

For me, I can't really put a baht value on the freedom of having no financial and emotional ties here.  I have nothing I can't sell at a fire sale, donate, or throw away, and head straight to the airport, should I ever want to, or more importantly, need to.  My future, or lack of it here, is not at the behest of the Thai government and a visa in my passport.  Basically, they can throw me out, but they don't get to keep my money and / or property, as would happen to many others.

 

I like the nightlife here, the climate, the food, the proximity to other major destinations, and I like how cosmopolitan and vibrant the place is, as I am sure others do, including yourself.

 

I encourage you to enjoy all the good things Thailand can offer you in retirement, and decline to get involved in anything that could / would be an anchor to you. or extend yourself financially, particularly as you are no longer working and earning.    

 

Good Luck in whatever decision/s you make.  

[thaibeachlovers]

On 6/26/2021 at 5:06 AM, Leaver said:

 

The real concern is, he got voted in, without really getting voted in, thus, Thailand is now under a dictatorship, with no pathway to real democracy in the future.

 

Of course, it's still perfectly fine to buy property and invest in Thailand.  ????

Since when was it "fine" for farangs to buy property in LOS in their own name?

 

I can't respond to the "dictatorship" hysteria without getting political, and that isn't permitted on TVF now.

[jomtienisgood]

12 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

I could write a very long post addressing various issues, but will make this post somewhat brief, yet quite direct.

 

Firstly, and this is important, have you been anywhere else to compare Thailand to for retirement?  Sadly, many haven't, and openly sing the praises of Thailand, yet have not been anywhere else to compare destinations.

 

I am not suggesting you should not retire in Thailand, I have, and I am happy here, but it's no secret on this forum that Vietnam is my Plan B.  The moment the Thai government gives me any grief, I am off to Vietnam.  Of course, I will come back to Thailand for several months of the year, as a tourists.  To this end, I don't really care who, or what the Thai government does, but I do feel for the Thai people.  I can only see rising tensions and protests here over a prolonged period of time, post covid.  How do you have a military coup to overthrow the past military coup?  It really is at the dictatorship stage here now.

 

Covid aside, Thailand in 2021 is vastly different than the Thailand of the 90's.  Speaking with older retirees, they tell me the steady rise in the cost of living, and more recently poor exchange rates, has impacted their lifestyle considerably.  These were average western retired expats, not rich, but not poor.  They bought properties here, with many of them trying to now sell in order to raise funds, but have been unable to sell for years.  They are now trapped in Thailand, and trapped in their current lifestyle.  

 

By all means retire to Thailand, however, I would suggest be very careful with your financial decisions and relationship decisions. When you are retired, if you blow your retirement funds, or tie them up, it's difficult to go back to work and start again.  You really only have one shot at a happy retirement with the money you have saved over your working life.

 

I am not suggesting my way of doing things is the right way, each to their own, but I didn't work hard all my life to lose my freedom in a 3rd World Country.  I make Thailand work for me, not me work for Thailand. 

 

For me, the saying, "rent is dead money" is not true in Thailand.  I use an agent for my visa.  My 800k baht is back in my home country earning around 6% instead of 1% in a Thai bank.  It earns way more than the cost of the agent, and it remains out of the Thai banking system, and firmly in my control.   Likewise, I am currently renting a decent condo that the money to buy it, left back in my home country earning around 6%, more than covers the rent each month.  With covid, rents will just get lower and lower, but that's discussion for another time. 

 

You have probably heard the saying "make your money in your home country, spend it in Thailand" or words to that effect.  I adhere to that.  The words "investing" and "Thailand" in the same sentence make me laugh.  

 

For me, I can't really put a baht value on the freedom of having no financial and emotional ties here.  I have nothing I can't sell at a fire sale, donate, or throw away, and head straight to the airport, should I ever want to, or more importantly, need to.  My future, or lack of it here, is not at the behest of the Thai government and a visa in my passport.  Basically, they can throw me out, but they don't get to keep my money and / or property, as would happen to many others.

 

I like the nightlife here, the climate, the food, the proximity to other major destinations, and I like how cosmopolitan and vibrant the place is, as I am sure others do, including yourself.

 

I encourage you to enjoy all the good things Thailand can offer you in retirement, and decline to get involved in anything that could / would be an anchor to you. or extend yourself financially, particularly as you are no longer working and earning.    

 

Good Luck in whatever decision/s you make.  

Good you kept it short and brief.. 5555????

[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, Leaver said:

many expats have said to me they envy my position, as they are no longer so happy here.  

They would IMO be no more or even less happy if they returned to home country. I haven't had a good laugh back home in years- it's a sanuk devoid place IMO.

[BritManToo]

17 hours ago, Leaver said:

There are many expats trapped here now, due to having money tied up in a property or business, or both, also emotional ties.  

I'm not really trapped here ....... it's just there's no better place to go (that will let me in) at the moment.

I'm still having a great time here, much better that I could have back in the UK.

[moontang]

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

They would IMO be no more or even less happy if they returned to home country. I haven't had a good laugh back home in years- it's a sanuk devoid place IMO.

Agreed..many alternatives are anything but normal.  The top reason I left was to be closer to my parents..otherwise I would have waited it out...but the time horizon for normalcy keeps getting bigger.  Glad I got vaxed with Pfizer.  I wish there were a million good lookers out there like there are in BKK but the p4p scene looks great in Paraguay and Argentina....and wine isn't a ripoff.

[thaibeachlovers]

12 hours ago, Leaver said:

These were average western retired expats, not rich, but not poor.  They bought properties here, with many of them trying to now sell in order to raise funds, but have been unable to sell for years.  They are now trapped in Thailand, and trapped in their current lifestyle.  

Should that not be "They PAID FOR properties here"? It's usually the wife that is the beneficiary, excepting of course if a condo.

 

One shouldn't make a mistake and then blame others for the consequences. It has been well known that buying property in LOS can end in tears, for many decades. Seems some will always think that they are different and that misfortune will never strike them.

Given that the risks of buying property in LOS were so well known and published I can't find it within myself to sympathise with any "trapped" by their own error.

 

I myself made a fundamental error by marrying the wrong Thai woman, but I blame only myself for being stupid and making the error of thinking she was different.

 

They are now trapped in Thailand, and trapped in their current lifestyle.  

IMO only trapped by their own inability to adapt to changed circumstances. I dream constantly of being trapped in LOS, as I'd have a significantly better lifestyle wherever I was in that fortunate country, than I do now.

 

Seems to me that many are only too quick to blame anyone but themselves for not making the most of their good fortune in being in LOS.

 

I first heard the expression "a bad day in LOS is better than a good day elsewhere" not long after I was first lucky enough to discover the delights of LOS, and I still think it to be true.

 

BTW, if one can't change one's situation, one must change oneself.

[BritManToo]

12 hours ago, Leaver said:

Covid aside, Thailand in 2021 is vastly different than the Thailand of the 90's.  Speaking with older retirees, they tell me the steady rise in the cost of living, and more recently poor exchange rates, has impacted their lifestyle considerably.

Can't say I see much difference in pricing since I came her in 2009.

When I first came here I was spending 60kbht+/month as a single guy, now I spend 40kbht/month as a family of 5.

MY spending has gone down, and my lifestyle has gone up in that 12 years.

Hookers are 3x the price, petrol and housing around the same or cheaper.

 

Exchange rate has dropped from 50bht/pound to 44bht/pound in that time, not that big a deal IMHO.

[thaibeachlovers]

5 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

I'm still having a great time here, much better that I could have back in the UK.

Speaking as one that lived in London for 10 years, do anything you can to not have to go back there. I only stayed for the money I was earning.

Awful place, IMO.

I like British tv shows like Midsomer Murder, but they aren't real life.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Can't say I see much difference in pricing since I came her in 2009.

When I first came here I was spending 60kbht+/month as a single guy, now I spend 40kbht/month as a family of 5.

MY spending has gone down, and my lifestyle has gone up in that 12 years.

Hookers are 3x the price, petrol and housing around the same or cheaper.

 

Exchange rate has dropped from 50bht/pound to 44bht/pound in that time, not that big a deal IMHO.

Go back before the financial crisis end of the last century and things were not that much cheaper with the value of the baht compared to foreign currency. Seems many complaining must have arrived after the crisis when foreign exchange increased in significantly in value, and inflation hadn't yet occurred. Those were happy days indeed.

[Ron jeremy]

12 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

I could write a very long post addressing various issues, but will make this post somewhat brief, yet quite direct.

 

Firstly, and this is important, have you been anywhere else to compare Thailand to for retirement?  Sadly, many haven't, and openly sing the praises of Thailand, yet have not been anywhere else to compare destinations.

 

I am not suggesting you should not retire in Thailand, I have, and I am happy here, but it's no secret on this forum that Vietnam is my Plan B.  The moment the Thai government gives me any grief, I am off to Vietnam.  Of course, I will come back to Thailand for several months of the year, as a tourists.  To this end, I don't really care who, or what the Thai government does, but I do feel for the Thai people.  I can only see rising tensions and protests here over a prolonged period of time, post covid.  How do you have a military coup to overthrow the past military coup?  It really is at the dictatorship stage here now.

 

Covid aside, Thailand in 2021 is vastly different than the Thailand of the 90's.  Speaking with older retirees, they tell me the steady rise in the cost of living, and more recently poor exchange rates, has impacted their lifestyle considerably.  These were average western retired expats, not rich, but not poor.  They bought properties here, with many of them trying to now sell in order to raise funds, but have been unable to sell for years.  They are now trapped in Thailand, and trapped in their current lifestyle.  

 

By all means retire to Thailand, however, I would suggest be very careful with your financial decisions and relationship decisions. When you are retired, if you blow your retirement funds, or tie them up, it's difficult to go back to work and start again.  You really only have one shot at a happy retirement with the money you have saved over your working life.

 

I am not suggesting my way of doing things is the right way, each to their own, but I didn't work hard all my life to lose my freedom in a 3rd World Country.  I make Thailand work for me, not me work for Thailand. 

 

For me, the saying, "rent is dead money" is not true in Thailand.  I use an agent for my visa.  My 800k baht is back in my home country earning around 6% instead of 1% in a Thai bank.  It earns way more than the cost of the agent, and it remains out of the Thai banking system, and firmly in my control.   Likewise, I am currently renting a decent condo that the money to buy it, left back in my home country earning around 6%, more than covers the rent each month.  With covid, rents will just get lower and lower, but that's discussion for another time. 

 

You have probably heard the saying "make your money in your home country, spend it in Thailand" or words to that effect.  I adhere to that.  The words "investing" and "Thailand" in the same sentence make me laugh.  

 

For me, I can't really put a baht value on the freedom of having no financial and emotional ties here.  I have nothing I can't sell at a fire sale, donate, or throw away, and head straight to the airport, should I ever want to, or more importantly, need to.  My future, or lack of it here, is not at the behest of the Thai government and a visa in my passport.  Basically, they can throw me out, but they don't get to keep my money and / or property, as would happen to many others.

 

I like the nightlife here, the climate, the food, the proximity to other major destinations, and I like how cosmopolitan and vibrant the place is, as I am sure others do, including yourself.

 

I encourage you to enjoy all the good things Thailand can offer you in retirement, and decline to get involved in anything that could / would be an anchor to you. or extend yourself financially, particularly as you are no longer working and earning.    

 

Good Luck in whatever decision/s you make.  

Thumbs up on this one! Can’t or don’t see anyone disagreeing with you!

not the honest ones anyway!

well done!????????

[Ron jeremy]

Is the UK really that bad?

never seen so many disgruntled people talk down about the UK

 

sad really! 

[ICELANDMAN]

On 6/18/2021 at 9:22 AM, 4MyEgo said:

 

First time bad case of Pneumonia, mistaken at the public hospital as a flu.

 

Second time breathing problems worsened, stent required due to narrowing of an artery.

 

1.6 + 1. =2.6 mil

 

Age 60 which is still young in my opinion.

 

 

I'm sorry but at this price it indicates that the private thais hospitals are fraudsters, the best private Europe hospital would not be at a quarter of this price

[thaibeachlovers]

59 minutes ago, Ron jeremy said:

Is the UK really that bad?

never seen so many disgruntled people talk down about the UK

 

sad really! 

IMO yes. It's got some history that is amazing, and the National Trust does great work preventing destruction by developers ( pity that they couldn't stop the ghastly shard horror in London ), but other than that I'd have much rather been in LOS, which has more sanuk in a day than London has in a month.

[moontang]

I just checked the pm 2.5 in Casper... 23...they used to be home to the largest oil refinery in the world. 

[Leaver]

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Since when was it "fine" for farangs to buy property in LOS in their own name?

 

I never said it was.  

 

One can buy a property here, using different structures, but it is the visa that allows you to live in it, and that can be cancelled, or the criteria changed, at any time.  Thus, the property remains in Thailand, but the owner of it may not be able to.  

 

 

[Leaver]

5 hours ago, jomtienisgood said:

Good you kept it short and brief.. 5555????

 

I understand it's difficult for many to maintain concentration for more than a couple of minutes.  ???? 

 

Edited June 27, 2021 by Leaver

[Leaver]

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

They would IMO be no more or even less happy if they returned to home country. I haven't had a good laugh back home in years- it's a sanuk devoid place IMO.

 

Exactly the mentality I addressed in my post.  

 

Why would that have to return to their home country when there are many other options available?  Eg.  Vietnam, or Bali.

 

There seems to be the mentality that Thailand is the be all and end all, and if one can not stay here, their only other option is going back to their home country.    

[Leaver]

5 hours ago, BritManToo said:

I'm not really trapped here ....... it's just there's no better place to go (that will let me in) at the moment.

I'm still having a great time here, much better that I could have back in the UK.

 

I never suggested you were trapped here, but many are.

 

Once again, there are many other options than just having to go back to the UK.  

[Leaver]

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Should that not be "They PAID FOR properties here"? It's usually the wife that is the beneficiary, excepting of course if a condo.

 

One shouldn't make a mistake and then blame others for the consequences. It has been well known that buying property in LOS can end in tears, for many decades. Seems some will always think that they are different and that misfortune will never strike them.

Given that the risks of buying property in LOS were so well known and published I can't find it within myself to sympathise with any "trapped" by their own error.

 

I myself made a fundamental error by marrying the wrong Thai woman, but I blame only myself for being stupid and making the error of thinking she was different.

 

They are now trapped in Thailand, and trapped in their current lifestyle.  

IMO only trapped by their own inability to adapt to changed circumstances. I dream constantly of being trapped in LOS, as I'd have a significantly better lifestyle wherever I was in that fortunate country, than I do now.

 

Seems to me that many are only too quick to blame anyone but themselves for not making the most of their good fortune in being in LOS.

 

I first heard the expression "a bad day in LOS is better than a good day elsewhere" not long after I was first lucky enough to discover the delights of LOS, and I still think it to be true.

 

BTW, if one can't change one's situation, one must change oneself.

 

I agree with your post, but my post was quite general. 

 

For whatever reasons, and there are many of them, there are many guys now trapped in Thailand, in most cases, financially trapped.   That could be the result of making poor financial decisions in the past, or simply their pension for years ago is no longer enough to provide the lifestyle here it has in the past.  

 

The saying, "a better day in LOS........................" once again suggests Thailand is the centre of the universe, when, in my opinion, it's appears to be rapidly losing it shine for many here over recent times, including western tourists.

 

Edited June 27, 2021 by Leaver