I want to whine about the West and "woke" generation

[Fat is a type of crazy]

Just now, Sparktrader said:

Media lies

Republicans and Fox News and some of the new right wing ones. Correct. We are talking about the lie of the extent of support for say 'Defund the Police' or shutting down some free speech on University campuses.

There is the additional lie of having no shades of grey in relation to say linking say Black Lives Matter protesters and other more strident or violent protesters. 

[Sparktrader]

Just now, Fat is a type of crazy said:

Republicans and Fox News and some of the new right wing ones. Correct. We are talking about the lie of the extent of support for say 'Defund the Police' or shutting down some free speech on University campuses.

There is the additional lie of having no shades of grey in relation to say linking say Black Lives Matter protesters and other more strident or violent protesters. 

CNN lies non stop.

[Fat is a type of crazy]

6 minutes ago, Sparktrader said:

CNN lies non stop.

If you say so. The difference for me is: CNN tell the truth but they could have shown more positive Republican stories and negative Democrat stories from time to time. They happen to believe in a view of the world that I concur is more of a Democrat view of the world. To me they were anti Trump for good reason and told the truth but could be definitely accused of some bias.

Fox News and the other new right wing ones are different. Sometimes they do the same thing on the right side but most of the commentators go that step further and lie or consciously and obviously distort reality to fit their agenda. That's my opinion but each to their own. 

 

Edited June 29, 2021 by Fat is a type of crazy

[Sparktrader]

he Central Intelligence Agency on Monday evening slammed what it called CNN's "misguided" and "simply false" reporting, after the cable channel's chief national security correspondent authored a hole-filled piece claiming that the CIA had pulled a high-level spy out of Russia because President Trump had "repeatedly mishandled classified intelligence and could contribute to exposing the covert source as a spy."

[CharlieH]

High number of posts removed.

 

If you continue in a political vein the topic will be closed.

This is NOT about Biden orTrump or US politics.

[Thomas J]

On 6/27/2021 at 11:25 AM, Gecko123 said:

At the very least they should make an effort to acknowledge that these injustices occurred and aren't being perpetuated present day. Labeling every effort to highlight inequities in police brutality, incarceration rates, access to health care and educational opportunities, income and wealth disparities as just another (yawn) example of "woke" culture, seems to me to be a very cynical attempt to tune out these realities simply because they're too uncomfortable for the listener to deal with.

Several points

 How many years and generations should countries and ethnic groups acknowledge their injustices.  Should Egypt be apologizing to Israel for putting its people into slavery over 2,000 years ago.  Should Italy be apologizing when Rome ruled the world and raped and pillaged numerous other ethnic groups and countries.  Should Spain be apologizing to Mexico, Central America and most of South America. 

If there is one ethnic group that truly is deserving of reparations it is the American Indian whose land was stolen and they were sent to reservations but surprisingly you hear little complaint from them.  Asians in the USA were treated like slaves but again I hear little complaint from them and unlike some racial groups that "blame" all of their woes on skin color the Asian community thrives, with the highest educational attainment level and highest family income group in the USA.  Jews have been persecuted for centuries, yet despite being at various times slaves and of course in Germany a target for eradication, they are amongst the highest educated, and highest earning ethnic group.  

In terms of tuning out realities that are too uncomfortable, little is made of the fact that the most vocal minority group has a 52% graduation rate from high school and the same minority group has a 72% birth rate to single mothers.   The single biggest determinant of success is being educated not ones skin color.   Lack of education leads to poverty and the lack of sufficient income often leads to criminal activity to earn what their educational achievement will not provide.  Growing up in a single family home makes the hurdle of growing out of poverty that much more difficult.  That has nothing to do with skin color it is cultural.  

Note the percentage of families headed by single parent homes.  Note also the income by ethnic group.   It is not skin color it is ones actions or lack of action that dictates the likelihoods of success.  And that is one of those uncomfortable realities that no one likes talking about for fear of being labeled a racist.  PS one of the highest income groups in the USA is Indian with a significant percentage of of them Doctors or Engineers.  Educational attainment equals prosperity. 

In 2015-19, the share of families headed by single parents was 75% among African American families, 59% among Hispanic families, 38% among white families and 20% among Asian families

 

Edited June 29, 2021 by Thomas J

[Sparktrader]

Woke is about $ and power. They dont care about 100 years ago.

[Hanaguma]

1 hour ago, Thomas J said:

Several points

 How many years and generations should countries and ethnic groups acknowledge their injustices.  Should Egypt be apologizing to Israel for putting its people into slavery over 2,000 years ago.  Should Italy be apologizing when Rome ruled the world and raped and pillaged numerous other ethnic groups and countries.  Should Spain be apologizing to Mexico, Central America and most of South America. 

If there is one ethnic group that truly is deserving of reparations it is the American Indian whose land was stolen and they were sent to reservations but surprisingly you hear little complaint from them.  

Not sure I agree about Native People in the USA.

 

They are far from a monolithic or monocultural entity.  Before the white man came across the sea to bring them pain and misery, they were busy killing and enslaving each other. Scalping and butchering, taking land and treasure and women. 

 

So the problem becomes, which tribes deserve compensation? For example, the Navaho killed the Apache who killed the Hopi. The Lakotah were pushed off their lands by the Chippewa, so they in turn took land from the Pawnee. And so it went for centuries pre-colonization. 

 

 

[Thomas J]

27 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Not sure I agree about Native People in the USA.

You are correct that there are few groups without a history of oppression.  Even with all the cry about slavery.  The term slave has its origins in the word slav. The slavs, who inhabited a large part of Eastern Europe, were taken as slaves by the Muslims of Spain during the ninth century AD. Slavery can broadly be described as the ownership, buying and selling of human beings for the purpose of forced and unpaid labour.

 

The countries of North Africa captured slavs to bring back to their country  The barbary pirates captured slaves to sell.
 

There are an estimated 27 million men, women, and children in the world who are enslaved — physically confined or restrained and forced to work, or controlled through violence, or in some way treated as property.

Therefore, there are more slaves today than were seized from Africa in four centuries of the trans-Atlantic slave trade [11 million total, and about 450,000, or about 4% of the total, who were brought to the United States].

So somehow this idea that slavery is unique to the United States and applies to only the black population is categorically false.   I also push back against the narrative that the blacks because of slavery were disadvantaged.  You will have a hard time convincing me that the average black living in the USA does not enjoy a far better standard of living than if slavery never occurred and they were born in Africa.  

Prior to LBJ's great society social programs which were sold as lifting the impoverished minorities, the rate of business ownership and home ownership of blacks was approximately the same as whites.  Incentivized by the government to take welfare the black population went on a continual decline in terms of business ownership and home ownership. 

As said, it is hard to find an ethnic group that at some point has not been persecuted, imprisoned, and enslaved.   You have the Asians in the USA forced into labor as coolies yet Asians today do not just ok, they are the top of the heap in terms of education and income.  My ancestors came from Ireland.  The Irish were treated as bad if not worse than slaves by the British.  In the USA when the Irish came, they were often banished to regions outside the main urban areas and forced into the worst jobs.  One only has to google No Irish Allowed, or No Irish Need Apply to see how they were discriminated against.  Yet they too rose from the ghetto's.  

In summary, I believe in equal opportunity for all and special privilege  for none.  This woke culture were months are dedicated to a specific racial group, where flags are dedicated to a specific racial group, where loans are targeted towards a specific racial group, where hiring practices are legislated to favor a specific racial group is not equality.  And the constant focus in every aspect of our lives about its racial component does not let racism die, rather the constant focus on race emphasizes the differences rather than the similarities we all have.  People become friends based on things they have in common, not on things that the do not share. 

 

[canthai55]

12 hours ago, Thomas J said:

Several points

 How many years and generations should countries and ethnic groups acknowledge their injustices.  Should Egypt be apologizing to Israel for putting its people into slavery over 2,000 years ago.  Should Italy be apologizing when Rome ruled the world and raped and pillaged numerous other ethnic groups and countries.  Should Spain be apologizing to Mexico, Central America and most of South America. 

If there is one ethnic group that truly is deserving of reparations it is the American Indian whose land was stolen and they were sent to reservations but surprisingly you hear little complaint from them.  Asians in the USA were treated like slaves but again I hear little complaint from them and unlike some racial groups that "blame" all of their woes on skin color the Asian community thrives, with the highest educational attainment level and highest family income group in the USA.  Jews have been persecuted for centuries, yet despite being at various times slaves and of course in Germany a target for eradication, they are amongst the highest educated, and highest earning ethnic group.  

In terms of tuning out realities that are too uncomfortable, little is made of the fact that the most vocal minority group has a 52% graduation rate from high school and the same minority group has a 72% birth rate to single mothers.   The single biggest determinant of success is being educated not ones skin color.   Lack of education leads to poverty and the lack of sufficient income often leads to criminal activity to earn what their educational achievement will not provide.  Growing up in a single family home makes the hurdle of growing out of poverty that much more difficult.  That has nothing to do with skin color it is cultural.  

Note the percentage of families headed by single parent homes.  Note also the income by ethnic group.   It is not skin color it is ones actions or lack of action that dictates the likelihoods of success.  And that is one of those uncomfortable realities that no one likes talking about for fear of being labeled a racist.  PS one of the highest income groups in the USA is Indian with a significant percentage of of them Doctors or Engineers.  Educational attainment equals prosperity. 

In 2015-19, the share of families headed by single parents was 75% among African American families, 59% among Hispanic families, 38% among white families and 20% among Asian families

 

I agree - Education is priority #1

Sad fact is the current state of same

 

[canthai55]

13 hours ago, Sparktrader said:

CNN lies non stop.

Almost 100% of media is slanted to reflect the owners bias.

If a right wing mogul owns it, the slant is Far Right

Same for the Left.

Both sides used by Gov't to further an agenda - and by Gov't I mean the "Power Behind the Throne", those who made the campaign contributions to get a candidate elected, and now come with their hand out for their payback.

Our task is to sort the wheat from the chaff - sadly, chaff is most of it.

 

“Believe nothing you hear, and only one half that you see.”

Edgar Allan Poe

[Gecko123]

16 hours ago, Thomas J said:

Several points

 How many years and generations should countries and ethnic groups acknowledge their injustices.  Should Egypt be apologizing to Israel for putting its people into slavery over 2,000 years ago.  Should Italy be apologizing when Rome ruled the world and raped and pillaged numerous other ethnic groups and countries.  Should Spain be apologizing to Mexico, Central America and most of South America. 

If there is one ethnic group that truly is deserving of reparations it is the American Indian whose land was stolen and they were sent to reservations but surprisingly you hear little complaint from them.  Asians in the USA were treated like slaves but again I hear little complaint from them and unlike some racial groups that "blame" all of their woes on skin color the Asian community thrives, with the highest educational attainment level and highest family income group in the USA.  Jews have been persecuted for centuries, yet despite being at various times slaves and of course in Germany a target for eradication, they are amongst the highest educated, and highest earning ethnic group.  

In terms of tuning out realities that are too uncomfortable, little is made of the fact that the most vocal minority group has a 52% graduation rate from high school and the same minority group has a 72% birth rate to single mothers.   The single biggest determinant of success is being educated not ones skin color.   Lack of education leads to poverty and the lack of sufficient income often leads to criminal activity to earn what their educational achievement will not provide.  Growing up in a single family home makes the hurdle of growing out of poverty that much more difficult.  That has nothing to do with skin color it is cultural.  

Note the percentage of families headed by single parent homes.  Note also the income by ethnic group.   It is not skin color it is ones actions or lack of action that dictates the likelihoods of success.  And that is one of those uncomfortable realities that no one likes talking about for fear of being labeled a racist.  PS one of the highest income groups in the USA is Indian with a significant percentage of of them Doctors or Engineers.  Educational attainment equals prosperity. 

In 2015-19, the share of families headed by single parents was 75% among African American families, 59% among Hispanic families, 38% among white families and 20% among Asian families

 

 

 

The question of how much a society should do to correct past and present injustices is ultimately a moral and pragmatic question. It depends on how much a community values social cohesion and recognizes the benefits of minimizing social inequalities. So many posters on this thread seem to see social justice as a zero-sum game, overlooking the social and economic benefits of having a more just society. Intangible benefits like an improved sense of well-being, safety, and community, and tangible benefits such as reduced crime, lower incarceration rates, lower drug abuse, and fewer mental problems, etc., as well as economic benefits such as better utilization of human resources and improved productivity all accrue when social inequities are reduced.

 

I would just like to add that I found your comments about slavery and the root causes of economic disparities between blacks and other racial groups to reflect a very shallow understanding of these issues.

 

For example, anyone who has studied the history of slavery in the Americas would know that it was characterized by a degree of brutality which went far beyond slavery practices from earlier times. Your comments about how other groups have relatively recovered from enslavement, ignores the fact that African-Americans have suffered ongoing racism and discrimination up until the present day. I also strongly believe that the devastating multi-generational damage that slavery inflicted on the African-American nuclear family and community was probably so great that the recovery process is still going on today, and likely will continue for some time to come.

 

I also found your comments about black graduation rates and black households headed by single parents rather offensive and also revealing a very poor understanding of the socioeconomic factors contributing to these rates. For example, discrimination and racism obviously affect poverty rates which in turn affect where many blacks live and the educational resources and opportunities they have access to. Poverty also increases the chances of being involved in crime, becoming incarcerated, or being killed or otherwise dying prematurely which impact the number of single-parent households. So to suggest, as you seem to be doing, that these statistics are driven in large part by poor family and educational values in the black community just shows a very poor understanding of the realities many black families face on a day-in day-out basis.

 

Edited June 30, 2021 by Gecko123

[Thomas J]

1 hour ago, Gecko123 said:

1 hour ago, Gecko123 said:

 

The question of how much a society should do to correct past and present injustices is ultimately a moral and pragmatic question. It depends on how much a community values social cohesion and recognizes the benefits of minimizing social inequalities

 

 

Now that statement could be called Obamaspeak.  Sounds eloquent but says absolutely nothing. Social cohesion and minimizing social inequalities. 

I suggest that part of the reason for the black community not achieving what it could is the notion that somehow “systematic racism” is holding them back.  It is far easier for a person to have an excuse that they can’t control for lack of success than to face the reality that they made personal choices which were detrimental to their own success.  It is like when the obese person goes to the doctor and says that they are fat because obesity runs in their family.  They don’t like hearing it when the doctor says no, the reason that your family is obese is because no one runs in it.

I respectfully disagree with your assertion than somehow racism is the cause of the disparities in success rates.  Throughout the ages almost every ethnic group has faced persecution, discrimination, and even slavery.  Somehow the notion that U.S. slavery that ended 158 years ago is somehow responsible is nonsensical. 

As mentioned, the Asian community in the USA were treated as much as slaves.  However, they thrive.  It is not coincidental that 80% of Asian children grow up in two parent homes and they achieve the highest educational level and are the highest earning ethnic group in the USA.  Even the recent Asian immigrants, many of them impoverished, not having the advantage of a USA education and not being able to speak English, thrive.   It is cultural that Asians value education, push their children to excel at it and remain predominately in two parent homes.  Conversely, 72% of black children are born to unwed mothers, only 52% of black males graduate from high school.  Tell me what racism forces the black males to drop out of high school and causes the high single parent household.
 

The correlation between education and success is so strong you would have to purposely ignore it. Now is it a lack of spending on the part of the USA that causes this gap.  Well in Washington DC, per pupil spending is $30,115 per pupil, neighboring Baltimore spends $17,493 per pupil How has that worked out.  Well Washington public schools show that 23% of 8^th graders were proficient in math and the same percentage proficient in reading.  By contrast well to do neighbor Fairfax county spends $16,505 per pupil.  61.9% of Fairfax graduates enroll in a 4 year college, and another  19% enroll in a two year college.  58% of black students in Washington DC even obtain a high school diploma.  Now what racism caused that.

I look at people like Dr. Ben Carson and his brother Curtis Carson both black.  They grew up in inner city Detroit in arguably one of the most blighted areas and in the Detroit public schools.  He and his brother studied.  He became the head of pediatric neurosurgery at John Hopkins while his brother became an aeronautical engineer working for NASA. It is personal initiative not skin color.

No one today wants to take personal responsibility for their actions or lack of actions.  It is far easier and less damaging to the psyche to just blame others or your skin color for your misfortunes. 

The USA has no special hiring quotas for Asians, no “historically” Asian colleges, no Asian Caucus in Congress, no Asian history month, no programs to forgive loans to only Asian farmers, and yet despite no special incentives or inducements they achieve.  So long as you continue to provide a ready-made excuse for people and tell them that they are the ones whose behavior will dictate their success in life, you will do nothing more than create the mindset in people that there is nothing they can do to change their lot in life because it was preordained that they will not succeed because of their skin color.
 

Edited June 30, 2021 by Thomas J

[canthai55]

One thing I do know ...

Large numbers of Ukrainians came to settle in Alberta.

Along with large numbers of Italians.

They did not ask for Social assistance - in fact they found it repugnant and demeaning to not support themselves.

Hard work, but all members of the family, made their lives better, and by extension the lives of their children.

These concepts they passed on to their children also.

No Whining, Crying, Hands Out for a Freebee, just get on with the job.

It used to be called pulling yourselves up by your bootstraps.

Sadly, Native Canadians never embraced such ideals, altho they have been conditioned to get everything for free from the Federal Government, so why work ?

[thaibeachlovers]

On 6/29/2021 at 4:35 AM, NorthernRyland said:

Of course not. I don't want this to happen to Thailand either. This is why Thailand is wise to not give citizenship to subversive Westerners that want to turn their beautiful country in ghettoized dumps like in America.

I agree. Thailand is spot on not allowing foreigners to buy land, and making it really hard to become a citizen.

They've seen what happens to every country that does the opposite and wisely rejected that path.

 

Many posters complain that Thais can easily get residency and buy land in their country, so Thailand should reciprocate. IMO it's our countries that have gone wrong. Our countries should be following Thailand's lead.

[thaibeachlovers]

21 hours ago, Thomas J said:

Now that statement could be called Obamaspeak.  Sounds eloquent but says absolutely nothing.

IMO it's easy to identify the woke, as they betray themselves every time they  say something that sounds profound but in reality means nothing. Eg, "we have to do something about climate change" without saying what they believe that "something" should be.

[BritManToo]

21 hours ago, Thomas J said:

So long as you continue to provide a ready-made excuse for people and tell them that they are the ones whose behavior will dictate their success in life, you will do nothing more than create the mindset in people that there is nothing they can do to change their lot in life because it was preordained that they will not succeed because of their skin color.

Assuming all races have equal abilities.

What if Asians are better at hard working and making money?

[Surelynot]

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

IMO it's easy to identify the woke, as they betray themselves every time they  say something that sounds profound but in reality means nothing. Eg, "we have to do something about climate change" without saying what they believe that "something" should be.

Absolutely.......best to ignore

 

Climate change 

Abuse of the Uighurs

Abuse of human rights in HK

Racisim

Religious intolerance

Religious extremism

Illegal migration

Cruelty to animals

People trafficking

Tax evasion

Money laundering

Organized crime

Drug smuggling

 

......if you don't know how to deal with these problems please don't even mention them.

 

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, BritManToo said:

Assuming all races have equal abilities.

What if Asians are better at hard working and making money?

IMO every normal child born has equal abilities.  What they end up actually doing is IMO governed by their family, community, society and environment.

It's a bit hard to succeed if one grows up in a mud hut, and never has access to education. Put an Asian in that situation and IMO they will do as poorly.

 

It's ironic, IMO, that the people that appreciate education the most are those that have the least access to it.

[Surelynot]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

IMO every normal child born has equal abilities.  What they end up actually doing is IMO governed by their family, community, society and environment.

It's a bit hard to succeed if one grows up in a mud hut, and never has access to education. Put an Asian in that situation and IMO they will do as poorly.

 

It's ironic, IMO, that the people that appreciate education the most are those that have the least access to it.

Your are safe to assume we are all of the opinion that what you say is in fact just your opinion...... but that is only IMO.

[BritManToo]

1 minute ago, Surelynot said:

Money laundering

Organized crime

Drug smuggling

 

......if you don't know how to deal with these problems please don't even mention them.

Legalise all drugs and make them freely available at normal cost+ pricing, then these 3 problems have probably gone.

 

[BritManToo]

4 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

IMO every normal child born has equal abilities.  What they end up actually doing is IMO governed by their family, community, society and environment.

It's a bit hard to succeed if one grows up in a mud hut, and never has access to education. Put an Asian in that situation and IMO they will do as poorly.

 

It's ironic, IMO, that the people that appreciate education the most are those that have the least access to it.

Seems you're as 'woke' as anyone, but just pick particular subjects to espouse your wokeness.

(climate change, racial equality, environmental issues, overpopulation)

Edited July 1, 2021 by BritManToo

[Surelynot]

2 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Legalise all drugs and make them freely available at normal cost+ pricing, then these 3 problems have probably gone.

 

Well then....you are allowed to talk about these from now on....well done.

[thaibeachlovers]

5 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Seems you're as 'woke' as anyone, but just pick particular subjects to espouse your wokeness.

(climate change, racial equality, environmental issues, overpopulation)

?

Given I've posted my solutions to every one of those on TVF I have no idea what you are on about.

[thaibeachlovers]

9 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

Your are safe to assume we are all of the opinion that what you say is in fact just your opinion...... but that is only IMO.

and visa versa.

[Mac Mickmanus]

15 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

 

 

......if you don't know how to deal with these problems please don't even mention them.

 

 

 

 

  None of us has been assigned to deal with those problems though . 

   They are not our problems to solve 

[Fat is a type of crazy]

11 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Legalise all drugs and make them freely available at normal cost+ pricing, then these 3 problems have probably gone.

 

Just being having an overdose on the Narcos series on Netflix.. I am a bit late to the party... fantastic show and it makes you think what you are saying .. think of all the taxes 

[Surelynot]

4 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

 

  None of us has been assigned to deal with those problems though . 

   They are not our problems to solve 

Yes.....sorry.....you would have to have read the thread for that to make sense........

[Thomas J]

22 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Assuming all races have equal abilities.

What if Asians are better at hard working and making money?

You are absolutely correct.  Somehow there is this notion that each ethnic group possesses the identical set of abilities.  There is some reason beyond just preference that causes the people from India to be particularly skilled at mathematics, science and computer technology.  I do think however that a huge part of the underachievement in the black community is cultural.  They grow up seeing single parent homes, unwed mothers, drug use, fathers and brothers in prison, the lack of recognition for school achievement etc and they see this as normal and emulate it.  Conversely, the Asian community has traditionally valued keeping the family intact as evidenced by 80% of Asian children being raised in two parent homes.  They push hard their children to excel at education.  I suspect if the black community revered the straight A student as much as they do the persons talents at football or basketball you would have far more black students hitting the school books instead of dropping out of high school.  The dropping out of school pretty much guarantees that their chances of having a career that takes them out of poverty is gone. 

[Phoenix Rising]

43 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I agree. Thailand is spot on not allowing foreigners to buy land, and making it really hard to become a citizen.

They've seen what happens to every country that does the opposite and wisely rejected that path.

 

I see. Maybe you can educate us as to which countries have gone down hill because of that and in which areas Thailand has done better?