Who will never vaccinate except if forced to for visa reasons ? and do you think that they will force us ?

[Tony125]

2 hours ago, ignis said:

for me that is easy 2. both time had to spend days in ICU, later aged 8, forced a vaccine at school, Ambulance had to be called. as this was the early 50s thought maybe advancements had been made on Vaccines. so have tried 3 more in my life, last one being last year, still the same on all 3 - ICU and days in Hospital

Just my luck ? I am one of the  1 in 100,000 people that cannot have vaccines and missed out on all the normal vaccines

But since the Mrna vaccines such as Moderna and Pfizer are made differently than  the old vaxes especially the flue vaxes  you should be ok. Only a Dr can check your past allergic results and tell if anything in the Mrna vaccines might cause a similar reaction.

 

https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2021/09/covid-19-vaccine-allergies.html

Edited December 5, 2021 by Tony125

[placnx]

20 hours ago, codemonkey said:

If this is a pandemic of unvaxxed people, why do the people with two experimental mRNA injections need a 3rd for a disease with a <2% CFR with the average age of covid deaths about the same as the average lifespan in US and other countries?

 

There are a lot of people being called "antivaxxers" who aren't against ALL vaccines, but are against *THIS* (failed) experimental mRNA drug being called a "vaccine" – even though it doesn't effectively stop infections or transmission.

 

The virus is mutating, primarily among unvaccinated, and selection pressure makes for variants, now Omicron, being sometimes successful at infecting double-vaccinated people, more likely those who don't take additional precautions such as wearing masks in confined spaces.

 

The mRNA vaccines are the most successful so far in combatting Covid, but even with earlier variants mRNA vaccine was never more than 95% efficacious. So you prefer Sinovac? 50.1% efficacious.

[placnx]

17 hours ago, codemonkey said:

Ok, but the first know cases of omicron in the USA were in fully vaccinated people who returned from trips to SA. I'm willing to bet the ranch these two vaccinated folks spread some of that omicron despite being vaccinated. Unless otherwise shown, the omicron variant was unleashed in America by vaccinated.

 

The first known U.S. Covid-19 case linked to Omicron was reported Wednesday in a San Francisco resident who had recently been in South Africa. The CDC said the person was vaccinated and the symptoms were mild and improving.

A second California case was reported Thursday, in a Los Angeles County resident who had also recently traveled to South Africa. The individual, who was fully vaccinated, was self-isolating and the symptoms were improving, the county Department of Public Health said.

Vaccinated super-spreader event occurred recently in  Norway where 120 fully vaccinated company employees attended a restaurant Christmas party, and 13 ended up with omicron and more than 50% tested positive for covid infection....all vaccinated!

So quit, quit the "it's a pandemic of unvaccinated" nonsense, it's a laughable and untenable stance for those who attempt to obscure the facts and science.

It was a pandemic of the unvaccinated until Omicron came along. Bear in mind that South Africa is only 25% vaccinated.

 

Hopefully we will learn what some of these new Omicron mutations do to make it so infectious.

Edited December 5, 2021 by placnx

[placnx]

13 hours ago, placeholder said:

Are these judges epidemiologists or virologists? They're not basing their decisions on science. They are basing it on how they construe the law. How is this relevant?  What do epidemiologists say about the effects of these White house policies? Your political obsession has absolutely nothing to do with the public health experts take on White House policies. In this context, it's utterly ludicrous.

 

These judges keep saying that the White House does not have the legal authority to do the necessary in a public health emergency. Sad how libertarian thinking overrides the public good.

[fjb 24]

7 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

Vaccine Mandates

6th circuit just put the big hurt into the OSHA /Biden workplace vaccine mandate, probably end up in the SC and constitutional powers of the feds to be the central theme.

"The Fifth Circuit ruling described the OSHA rule as “fatally flawed” and said that the mandate would likely be declared unconstitutional"

 

"Nowhere in the U.S. Constitution does it say the federal government has the right to force citizens to take vaccines – or any other form of health care, for that matter."

Lockdowns and vaccine mandates haven’t worked. Just look at Sweden and Denmark, or Florida for that matter, all of which ended lockdowns and mask and vaccine mandates and watched as COVID cases and deaths fell.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

16 hours ago, codemonkey said:

Dutch authorities say "around 90%" of those that tested positive for COVID-19 were vaccinated. 100% who tested + for Omicron had taken the shots.

"The infection rate among the passengers from South Africa sparked calls from Dutch health authorities for testing to replace vaccination status for flying."

Makes sense given how covid is spreading so easily and rapidly amongst vaccinated.

You should read the article before posting.

 

The people 62 people who tested positive for COVID-19 (14 tested positive for Omicron) all travelled on two flights from SA. The total number of passengers was o we 600. 
 

Nobody got on those flights who was not vaccinated and/or had proof of recent recovery from COVID.

 

Therefore the people from which the data of infection relates were all vaccinated and/or recent COVID recovered.

Given that vaccination is recommended for those who have had COVID it is a fair assumption that all passengers or very nearly all passengers were at some time vaccinated and that no passengers or very few passengers were unvaccinated.

The report you have linked is ambiguous wrt to the numbers stated, as follows:

 

62 passengers infected with COVID-19 of which 14 infected with Omicron.

 

Or

 

62 Passengers infected with COVID + 14 infected with Omicron.

 

The infection rate on this 10 hour+ long haul flight is therefore between 10 and 13%.
 

This assumes all infections occurred during the flight.

 

Nothing in the report supports your conclusions.

 

 

[earthscar]

10 minutes ago, fjb 24 said:

6th circuit just put the big hurt into the OSHA /Biden workplace vaccine mandate, probably end up in the SC and constitutional powers of the feds to be the central theme.

"The Fifth Circuit ruling described the OSHA rule as “fatally flawed” and said that the mandate would likely be declared unconstitutional"

 

"Nowhere in the U.S. Constitution does it say the federal government has the right to force citizens to take vaccines – or any other form of health care, for that matter."

Lockdowns and vaccine mandates haven’t worked. Just look at Sweden and Denmark, or Florida for that matter, all of which ended lockdowns and mask and vaccine mandates and watched as COVID cases and deaths fell.

 

cherry pick those locations. fyi i wouldn't suggest using florida they are well known to not release information on covid cases and are in a legal bind for actually tampering with the little information they give out. 

 

There is deffinantly room to discuss lock downs, there are pros and some serious negitives to it. Its a tool like any other and should be used correctly and delicatly. 

 

Even before Biden's COVID-19 vaccine mandate, US employers could require employees to be vaccinated during pandemics under federal law.

 

While defiantly unfortunate its been pointed out by doctors that they misunderstand the science.

 

The federal mandate on gov employees and contractors working for them is huge..boeing, lockhead,etc not to mention that companies can mandate it and there is a huge push for them to do so..and they are.

 

Sweden’s public health chief: Latest coronavirus curbs may not be enough

 

I get it you wanna push a narrative but problem one this isn't reddit /conservative so ppl understand what google*.com is, and second..this isn't the echo chamber your looking for.

 

End result is that this may slow down the push for universal vaccines but the ppl that are really paying are the ones who did their own research by searching for facebook posts. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

18 hours ago, codemonkey said:

Ok, but the first know cases of omicron in the USA were in fully vaccinated people who returned from trips to SA. I'm willing to bet the ranch these two vaccinated folks spread some of that omicron despite being vaccinated. Unless otherwise shown, the omicron variant was unleashed in America by vaccinated.

 

The first known U.S. Covid-19 case linked to Omicron was reported Wednesday in a San Francisco resident who had recently been in South Africa. The CDC said the person was vaccinated and the symptoms were mild and improving.

A second California case was reported Thursday, in a Los Angeles County resident who had also recently traveled to South Africa. The individual, who was fully vaccinated, was self-isolating and the symptoms were improving, the county Department of Public Health said.

Vaccinated super-spreader event occurred recently in  Norway where 120 fully vaccinated company employees attended a restaurant Christmas party, and 13 ended up with omicron and more than 50% tested positive for covid infection....all vaccinated!

So quit, quit the "it's a pandemic of unvaccinated" nonsense, it's a laughable and untenable stance for those who attempt to obscure the facts and science.

Given that almost all passengers on flights into the US from SA are vaccinated, anyone traveling from SA who is infected with Omicron is almost certainly going to be vaccinated.

 

It’s only path to travel to the US was via vaccinated individuals.

 

However, this is about to change.

 

The appearance of the Omicron is only days old.

 

We’ll come back to this when it’s taken hold in the wider community and data on the infection rate amongst vaccinated and unvaccinated is known.

[Jeffr2]

22 minutes ago, fjb 24 said:

6th circuit just put the big hurt into the OSHA /Biden workplace vaccine mandate, probably end up in the SC and constitutional powers of the feds to be the central theme.

"The Fifth Circuit ruling described the OSHA rule as “fatally flawed” and said that the mandate would likely be declared unconstitutional"

 

"Nowhere in the U.S. Constitution does it say the federal government has the right to force citizens to take vaccines – or any other form of health care, for that matter."

Lockdowns and vaccine mandates haven’t worked. Just look at Sweden and Denmark, or Florida for that matter, all of which ended lockdowns and mask and vaccine mandates and watched as COVID cases and deaths fell.

 

Supreme court ruled on this decades ago.  It's 100% constitutional.  If in the interest of public health.  You can look it up.

[earthscar]

30 minutes ago, fjb 24 said:

6th circuit just put the big hurt into the OSHA /Biden workplace vaccine mandate, probably end up in the SC and constitutional powers of the feds to be the central theme.

"The Fifth Circuit ruling described the OSHA rule as “fatally flawed” and said that the mandate would likely be declared unconstitutional"

 

"Nowhere in the U.S. Constitution does it say the federal government has the right to force citizens to take vaccines – or any other form of health care, for that matter."

Lockdowns and vaccine mandates haven’t worked. Just look at Sweden and Denmark, or Florida for that matter, all of which ended lockdowns and mask and vaccine mandates and watched as COVID cases and deaths fell.

 

Worth noting the 3 judges on the panel that looked at it are 2 are trump elected and all 3 republican. read into that as you will. Side note if you ever want your hair to go white look into how judges get elected..or sheriff.. to say our system has some flaws is a under Fing statment.

[Jeffr2]

https://qz.com/2042743/do-mandatory-vaccines-violate-human-rights/

“In ethics, there’s this idea that you can do things as long as you don’t harm other people,” says bioethics professor Matthew Liao, director of the Center for Bioethics at New York University. “[W]hen you don’t get vaccinated, you’re putting people in danger.”

 

Hall notes that in the 1905 case Jacobson v. Massachusetts, the US Supreme Court upheld the states’ authority to mandate vaccinations (in this case, for smallpox) for this very reason. The court noted in its opinion:

 

“The liberty secured by the Constitution of the United States does not import an absolute right in each person to be at all times, and in all circumstances, wholly freed from restraint, nor is it an element in such liberty that one person, or a minority of persons residing in any community and enjoying the benefits of its local government, should have power to dominate the majority when supported in their action by the authority of the State.”

[placeholder]

39 minutes ago, fjb 24 said:

6th circuit just put the big hurt into the OSHA /Biden workplace vaccine mandate, probably end up in the SC and constitutional powers of the feds to be the central theme.

"The Fifth Circuit ruling described the OSHA rule as “fatally flawed” and said that the mandate would likely be declared unconstitutional"

 

"Nowhere in the U.S. Constitution does it say the federal government has the right to force citizens to take vaccines – or any other form of health care, for that matter."

Lockdowns and vaccine mandates haven’t worked. Just look at Sweden and Denmark, or Florida for that matter, all of which ended lockdowns and mask and vaccine mandates and watched as COVID cases and deaths fell.

 

Nowhere in the constitution does it say that the federal government can regulate automobile safety. In fact automobiles aren't even mentioned in the Constitution. Nor for that matter are vaccines. But we do know that George Washington mandated vaccinations for his soldiers, and, in so doing, grievously violated those soldiers' human rights.

[blackprince]

18 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

https://qz.com/2042743/do-mandatory-vaccines-violate-human-rights/

“In ethics, there’s this idea that you can do things as long as you don’t harm other people,” says bioethics professor Matthew Liao, director of the Center for Bioethics at New York University. “[W]hen you don’t get vaccinated, you’re putting people in danger.”

Glad to see the debate has been elevated Jeff ????

 

Liao is basically paraphrasing John Stewart Mill's "harm principle", which is a central tenet of the political philosophy known as liberalism and was first proposed by English philosopher John Stuart Mill over 250 years ago.

 

However, some believe the harm principle is not designed to guide the actions of individuals but to restrict the scope of criminal law and government restrictions of personal liberty.

 

It's hard to enough to get consensus here on simple things like stats. Getting consensus on philosophy and ethics, sheeesh good luck with that. Even Plato and Socrates couldn't agree 555

 

 

[Jeffr2]

2 minutes ago, blackprince said:

Glad to see the debate has been elevated Jeff ????

 

Liao is basically paraphrasing John Stewart Mill's "harm principle", which is a central tenet of the political philosophy known as liberalism and was first proposed by English philosopher John Stuart Mill over 250 years ago.

 

However, some believe the harm principle is not designed to guide the actions of individuals but to restrict the scope of criminal law and government restrictions of personal liberty.

 

It's hard to enough to get consensus here on simple things like stats. Getting consensus on philosophy and ethics, sheeesh good luck with that. Even Plato and Socrates couldn't agree 555

 

 

I'd hazard a guess if brought up in criminal court, someone who knew they were infected, didn't take precautions and infected others, could be charged.  That's what's happening with HIV patients. 

[blackprince]

18 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

I'd hazard a guess if brought up in criminal court, someone who knew they were infected, didn't take precautions and infected others, could be charged.  That's what's happening with HIV patients. 

Good point. I posted a while back that last year certain antisocial Brits in the UK were jailed for spitting on other people's faces and shouting "now you've got covid", or something similar. Whether the spitters actually had covid or not I can't remember.

 

Some of these yobs as we affectionately call them were daft enough to spit on cops' faces too. I can't remember whether they got a longer jail term for that or not.

Edited December 5, 2021 by blackprince

[thaibeachlovers]

On 12/3/2021 at 4:27 PM, Danderman123 said:

You are being short sighted here. Vaccination reduces the number of infected people, and every infected person is an incubator for potential mutations, some of which may be lethal to you.

 

With Omicron coming, I would strongly recommend you get vaccinated ASAP.

You assume I'm not? WRONG .

 

Even vaccinated I can still be infected.

 

Just dislike the whole covid covid covid mantra and being treated like I know nothing  and have no rights, by people that should be servants of the public, not our masters. 

[Jeffr2]

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You assume I'm not? WRONG .

 

Even vaccinated I can still be infected.

 

Just dislike the whole covid covid covid mantra and being treated like I know nothing  and have no rights, by people that should be servants of the public, not our masters. 

Sadly, many are not acting properly and need to be treated like children.  No reason not to be vaccinated.  Congrats that you are!  Shame on those who refuse the jab.

[earthscar]

Just now, thaibeachlovers said:

You assume I'm not? WRONG .

 

Even vaccinated I can still be infected.

 

Just dislike the whole covid covid covid mantra and being treated like I know nothing  and have no rights, by people that should be servants of the public, not our masters. 

I always find that stance, specially put in such simplistic way, adorable. Rules/laws are mandated all the time. Most of them are backed up by peer reviewed studies/etc when we find out they are outdated or biased of flawed logic are adapted/changed/dismiss them.

 

At this time peer reviewed and widely held stance is that for the public good,and in this case world good, these mandates need to be in place. When/if something comes out to show that they need to be nullified/changed then that's more then acceptable. If you have some information that's peer reviewed why this particular mandate is unjust or unwarranted i'm all for it. 

 

If your going on your feels then well..ya..adorable.

[thaibeachlovers]

Just now, Jeffr2 said:

Sadly, many are not acting properly and need to be treated like children.  No reason not to be vaccinated.  Congrats that you are!  Shame on those who refuse the jab.

While I am, I absolutely support those that choose not to be.

Just the other day I was talking to a guy that had such a bad reaction to the vaccine that he thought he was dying. Young fit guy too. He's OK now, thank goodness.

[Jeffr2]

4 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

While I am, I absolutely support those that choose not to be.

Just the other day I was talking to a guy that had such a bad reaction to the vaccine that he thought he was dying. Young fit guy too. He's OK now, thank goodness.

Severe vaccine reactions are few and far between.  Severe reactions from Covid are not.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Jeffr2

[earthscar]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

While I am, I absolutely support those that choose not to be.

Just the other day I was talking to a guy that had such a bad reaction to the vaccine that he thought he was dying. Young fit guy too. He's OK now, thank goodness.

lol reminds me of this story out of the UK of a lady who came in complaining she had horrible response to vaccines and needed to get approved for exemption. the doctor told her they need to a controlled stress test. had her sign a waver etc.

 

then he injected her with the solution, she slowly every slowly slide to the ground and went into epileptic seizure. problem being well it was obviously fake, he called in the senior attending who ever so politely told her that she was fine. 

 

She asked for the exemption since it was obvious that she just had a seizure, he informed there was need as she was fully vaccinated now. she threw a fit saying she had never agreed,she had that's what the signed doc was for, and that they had no right.

 

point of that..that story was from reddit..and about just as possible to be true as yours. In either case if the gentlemen you spoke to had that then he should speak to a doc and they should discuss what he will need to do. if you scroll up there is a link to a reliable source about what to do w/ allergic reactions to vaccines.

[Jeffr2]

5 minutes ago, earthscar said:

lol reminds me of this story out of the UK of a lady who came in complaining she had horrible response to vaccines and needed to get approved for exemption. the doctor told her they need to a controlled stress test. had her sign a waver etc.

 

then he injected her with the solution, she slowly every slowly slide to the ground and went into epileptic seizure. problem being well it was obviously fake, he called in the senior attending who ever so politely told her that she was fine. 

 

She asked for the exemption since it was obvious that she just had a seizure, he informed there was need as she was fully vaccinated now. she threw a fit saying she had never agreed,she had that's what the signed doc was for, and that they had no right.

 

point of that..that story was from reddit..and about just as possible to be true as yours. In either case if the gentlemen you spoke to had that then he should speak to a doc and they should discuss what he will need to do. if you scroll up there is a link to a reliable source about what to do w/ allergic reactions to vaccines.

Funny.  Could have been white coat syndrome.  It's a real deal. LOL.  I know I get it!

 

P.S. The worst reaction I ever had was with Shingrix.  Shot #2 was terrible!!!!

Edited December 5, 2021 by Jeffr2

[thaibeachlovers]

On 12/4/2021 at 8:04 PM, Virt said:

Ask your parents how many vaccinations you received as a child.

My mother would have denied me every vaccine if she had the same opinion of the medical profession when I was young as when she was older.

Also, when I was young, I think the only one I had was smallpox, as the others didn't yet exist. My "vaccinations" for measles, mumps etc were to put me together with someone that was sick with them already.

[Jeffr2]

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

My mother would have denied me every vaccine if she had the same opinion of the medical profession when I was young as when she was older.

Also, when I was young, I think the only one I had was smallpox, as the others didn't yet exist. My "vaccinations" for measles, mumps etc were to put me together with someone that was sick with them already.

Terrible way to deal with measles.  Life long consequences are not uncommon.

[thaibeachlovers]

7 minutes ago, earthscar said:

lol reminds me of this story out of the UK of a lady who came in complaining she had horrible response to vaccines and needed to get approved for exemption. the doctor told her they need to a controlled stress test. had her sign a waver etc.

 

then he injected her with the solution, she slowly every slowly slide to the ground and went into epileptic seizure. problem being well it was obviously fake, he called in the senior attending who ever so politely told her that she was fine. 

 

She asked for the exemption since it was obvious that she just had a seizure, he informed there was need as she was fully vaccinated now. she threw a fit saying she had never agreed,she had that's what the signed doc was for, and that they had no right.

 

point of that..that story was from reddit..and about just as possible to be true as yours. In either case if the gentlemen you spoke to had that then he should speak to a doc and they should discuss what he will need to do. if you scroll up there is a link to a reliable source about what to do w/ allergic reactions to vaccines.

??????????????

The reaction was from the second jab, not the first, and he intends taking the booster anyway. He doesn't think it was an allergic reaction, just a side effect.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

2 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Terrible way to deal with measles.  Life long consequences are not uncommon.

Not for me or any of my friends that had the same treatment.

[earthscar]

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

??????????????

The reaction was from the second jab, not the first, and he intends taking the booster anyway. He doesn't think it was an allergic reaction, just a side effect.

 

love the ??? as if I failed to read your anadote wrong

 

"While I am, I absolutely support those that choose not to be.

Just the other day I was talking to a guy that had such a bad reaction to the vaccine that he thought he was dying. Young fit guy too. He's OK now, thank goodness."

 

so what your saying is he had a bad reaction to a vaccine that is ment to stop him from dying or having life long medical problems...

 

yep my response still stands. He should speak w/ his doc about things that can help and that the jab is still preferable to getting covid. 

 

I respect,i don't, ppl that don't want to get the jab. Hermain Cain awards are free and hopefully we get a emote for them soon.

[earthscar]

4 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Not for me or any of my friends that had the same treatment.

awesome hot take on the out come for the treatment back then. definitely the way we should do public policy.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, earthscar said:

awesome hot take on the out come for the treatment back then. definitely the way we should do public policy.

What an adorable response. Keep em coming.

[placnx]

2 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

Supreme court ruled on this decades ago.  It's 100% constitutional.  If in the interest of public health.  You can look it up.

Let's just hope that Supreme Court dosen't just let the 5th Circuit decision stand. The 5th Circuit has a reputation as reactionary.