What Worried You More?

[MrJ2U]

10 minutes ago, frantick said:

99% worldwide unvaccinated maybe, but only because there wasn't much vaccination going on.

 

Check out countries with large percentages of vaccinated; Iceland, Israel. Their hospitalizations are now starting to become primarily the vaccinated which is logical because nearly everyone is vaccinated. Granted, the vaccines reduce those numbers, I've never denied, but the media doesn't like to report the fact that there will continue to be hospitalizations and death even if everyone gets vaccinated. It's almost impossible to find those vaccinated-hospital vs unvaccinated-hospital numbers, why is that?

 "It's almost impossible to find those vaccinated-hospital vs unvaccinated-hospital numbers, why is that?"

 

Conspiracy theories really bore me.

 

Why don't you ask one of your Qanon friends?

[frantick]

2 minutes ago, MrJ2U said:

 

I don't think you and the tin foil hat guys will ever understand science.

Laughable.

Happy to make you chuckle, we're here to entertain. 

 

I'm sure it's good for you to laugh to keep you from crying and cowering, masked up in the corner, over the coming doomsday virus variant and us (we?) superspreaders.

[ArcticFox]

1 hour ago, MrJ2U said:

Just stay in your room please as your part of the problem.

When you people have nothing of substance to say, when you are completely unable to back your assertions - you go immediately to personal, ad-hominem attacks.  Try working on your debating skills.  Being snarky isn't a good debate strategy.  It just shows you've spent your argument and your out of ammo.

The scientific method demands a degree of skepticism and caution.  Without it?  It's not science anymore, it becomes religion. 
And when the faithful call for the burning of the heretics?  This world turns into a very unpleasant place.  In my estimation, we're pretty close.
 

[frantick]

3 minutes ago, MrJ2U said:

 "It's almost impossible to find those vaccinated-hospital vs unvaccinated-hospital numbers, why is that?"

 

Conspiracy theories really bore me.

 

Why don't you ask one of your Qanon friends?

Just want numbers, you know, science. Oh, I forgot, math is racist now.

[MrJ2U]

4 minutes ago, ArcticFox said:

When you people have nothing of substance to say, when you are completely unable to back your assertions - you go immediately to personal, ad-hominem attacks.  Try working on your debating skills.  Being snarky isn't a good debate strategy.  It just shows you've spent your argument and your out of ammo.

The scientific method demands a degree of skepticism and caution.  Without it?  It's not science anymore, it becomes religion. 
And when the faithful call for the burning of the heretics?  This world turns into a very unpleasant place.  In my estimation, we're pretty close.
 

I couldn't read all that.

 

I'm sure more gobbley gook.

 

Anyway get some rest you'll be hungover tomorrow.

Edited August 10, 2021 by MrJ2U

[ArcticFox]

Deleted.

 

Edited August 10, 2021 by ArcticFox

[MrJ2U]

4 minutes ago, frantick said:

Just want numbers, you know, science. Oh, I forgot, math is racist now.

Why don't you just look at the news.

 

Your so odd.

[frantick]

1 minute ago, MrJ2U said:

Why don't you just look at the news.

 

Your so odd.

vaccinated-hospital vs unvaccinated-hospital numbers

 

Show me where you find those numbers and I'll buy you a beer.

 

 

[MrJ2U]

Just now, frantick said:

vaccinated-hospital vs unvaccinated-hospital numbers

 

Show me where you find those numbers and I'll buy you a beer.

 

 

No thanks.

 

Maybe you should stop also.

 

Your an anti vaxer.

 

Lets just agree to disagree.

[partington]

58 minutes ago, ArcticFox said:

I keep hearing this too, but I never see the studies backing that assertion.  All we hear are 'experts' who tell the public to trust them.  My trust in government ran out decades ago.  I want to see studies, data, and hard facts. 

Now regarding the statement "Unvaccinated people are pools for the virus to mutate."  This animal study shows it's probably the other way around, i.e., Vaccinated people are likely the source of virus mutation.

According to the study, vaccinated people are pools for the virus to mutate - IF - the vaccination does not convey full immunity.  And guess what?  None of the current crop of Covid vaccines provide the recipient with full immunity.

So the commonly accepted narrative being floated out by politicians and the press is that the unvaccinated are creating mutants that creates severe disease in the vaccinated. 

This study shows the opposite to be true:  "Our data show that anti-disease vaccines that do not prevent transmission can create conditions that promote the emergence of pathogen strains that cause more severe disease in unvaccinated hosts."

This is the exact opposite of what is being said by presidents, PMs, and high-level health care bureaucrats.
The former is a political statement; the latter is a scientific observation backed by research and analysis.

https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198

This paper does not talk about "full immunity" - this is a term you seem to have pulled out of thin air.

 

 It talks about vaccines which do not prevent transmission of the pathogen - termed  'leaky' vaccines - , and it specifically talks about the effect of leaky vaccines after hyperpathogenic (fatal) strains of a virus have emerged.

 

It does NOT say that leaky vaccines created the hyperpathogenic strains that kill the host nor that vaccination was responsible.  Here is a direct quote:

 

"Our data do not demonstrate that vaccination was responsible for the evolution of hyperpathogenic strains of MDV, and we may never know for sure why they evolved in the first place."

 

What the  paper ACTUALLY says is that IF a hyperpathogenic (fatal) strain develops then a leaky vaccine can promote the survival of that strain because it will prevent the death of those infected long enough for the fatal strain to be passed on.  Normally a fatal strain dies out because it kills the host before transmission can occur. 

 

Vaccines prevent death, in other words. But this is one of the major reasons we vaccinate people-to save their lives.

 

You have evidently missed the point that this presents a danger only to unvaccinated people and is therefore an additional argument for prompt population-wide mass vaccination, exactly as is done for smallpox say.

Edited August 10, 2021 by partington

[partington]

34 minutes ago, frantick said:

99% worldwide unvaccinated maybe, but only because there wasn't much vaccination going on.

 

Check out countries with large percentages of vaccinated; Iceland, Israel. Their hospitalizations are now starting to become primarily the vaccinated which is logical because nearly everyone is vaccinated. Granted, the vaccines reduce those numbers, I've never denied, but the media doesn't like to report the fact that there will continue to be hospitalizations and death even if everyone gets vaccinated. It's almost impossible to find those vaccinated-hospital vs unvaccinated-hospital numbers, why is that?

 

There is no unwillingness to report these numbers, and it is simple common sense that when a vaccine is reported in the press to have efficacies of say, 85%, 70%, or 95% , it means that this is the percentage of people who are prevented from getting Covid after vaccination, compared to those who are unvaccinated.

 

Clearly this also directly informs you that 15%, 30% or 5% of people who are vaccinated will get Covid despite their vaccination status. There is nothing hidden or obscure about these statements!

 

Contrary to your implication that this is somehow hidden or deliberately obscured information, the mainstream UK newspaper The Guardian published a helpful article detailing exactly this only a month or so ago:

https://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/commentisfree/2021/jun/27/why-most-people-who-now-die-with-covid-have-been-vaccinated

"Why most people who now die with Covid in England have had a vaccination

David Spiegelhalter and Anthony Masters

It could sound worrying that the majority of people dying in England with the now-dominant Delta (B.1.617.2) variant have been vaccinated. Does this mean the vaccines are ineffective? Far from it, it’s what we would expect from an effective but imperfect vaccine, a risk profile that varies hugely by age and the way the vaccines have been rolled out.

 

Consider the hypothetical world where absolutely everyone had received a less than perfect vaccine. Although the death rate would be low, everyone who died would have been fully vaccinated.

 

The vaccines are not perfect. PHE estimates two-dose effectiveness against hospital admission with the Delta infections at around 94%. We can perhaps assume there is at least 95% protection against Covid-19 death, which means the lethal risk is reduced to less than a twentieth of its usual value."

[talahtnut]

1 hour ago, MrJ2U said:

Oh please.

 

Your entitled to your fantasy theories but its so wrong.

 

You need to watch the world news and stop following QAnon right wing conspiracy theories.

 

Ugh.

You exhibit a complete and utter failure to read or comprehend the

meaning of  'documented government data', if you regard that as

a conspiracy theory, then I'm proud to wear a tin foil  hat, I just don't

intend to become a 'lab rat' like yourself.

 

[MrJ2U]

21 minutes ago, talahtnut said:

You exhibit a complete and utter failure to read or comprehend the

meaning of  'documented government data', if you regard that as

a conspiracy theory, then I'm proud to wear a tin foil  hat, I just don't

intend to become a 'lab rat' like yourself.

 

News articles are fine enough.

 

I can't be bothered chatting with a conspiracy theorist.

 

You'll need a vaccine to do about anything including getting a visa pretty soon.

 

Please stay in your room with your tin hat in the meantime.

Thanks little guy.

[MrJ2U]

24 minutes ago, talahtnut said:

You exhibit a complete and utter failure to read or comprehend the

meaning of  'documented government data', if you regard that as

a conspiracy theory, then I'm proud to wear a tin foil  hat, I just don't

intend to become a 'lab rat' like yourself.

 

I'm sure you're proud.

 

Late night always brings out the weirdos in the forum.

 

 

[MrJ2U]

26 minutes ago, talahtnut said:

You exhibit a complete and utter failure

Hmmm.

 

I actually feel sorry for you.

 

Lonely guy spouting confusing theories in his 3,000 baht slum apartment.

 

[cdemundo]

3 hours ago, ArcticFox said:

But the people who balk at taking these brand new, not fully tested vaccines that tweaks your genetics (well except for Sinovac and Sinopharm)? 

It's ok, they don't tweak your genetics.

 

[Emdog]

"In this analysis of 7,280 laboratory-confirmed COVID-19–associated cases among hospitalized adults aged ≥65 years, all three COVID-19 vaccine products currently authorized for use in the United States had high effectiveness in preventing laboratory-confirmed COVID-19–associated hospitalizations. The effectiveness of full vaccination with mRNA vaccines (Pfizer BioNTech and Moderna) was ≥91% and of Janssen was ≥84% among adults aged ≥65 years. These findings are consistent with estimates from other observational studies of the mRNA vaccines and provide an early estimate of the effectiveness of Janssen in preventing COVID-19–associated hospitalization (1–3,5). Although the method used in this analysis does not account for many important potential confounders and results should be interpreted with caution, taken together, these findings provide additional evidence that available vaccines are highly effective in preventing COVID-19–associated hospitalizations and demonstrate that performance of COVID-19 vaccines can be assessed using existing disease surveillance and immunization data."

Not all ages, admittedly... https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e3.htm

[frantick]

2 hours ago, partington said:

 

There is no unwillingness to report these numbers, and it is simple common sense that when a vaccine is reported in the press to have efficacies of say, 85%, 70%, or 95% , it means that this is the percentage of people who are prevented from getting Covid after vaccination, compared to those who are unvaccinated.

 

Clearly this also directly informs you that 15%, 30% or 5% of people who are vaccinated will get Covid despite their vaccination status. There is nothing hidden or obscure about these statements!

 

Contrary to your implication that this is somehow hidden or deliberately obscured information, the mainstream UK newspaper The Guardian published a helpful article detailing exactly this only a month or so ago:

https://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/commentisfree/2021/jun/27/why-most-people-who-now-die-with-covid-have-been-vaccinated

"Why most people who now die with Covid in England have had a vaccination

David Spiegelhalter and Anthony Masters

It could sound worrying that the majority of people dying in England with the now-dominant Delta (B.1.617.2) variant have been vaccinated. Does this mean the vaccines are ineffective? Far from it, it’s what we would expect from an effective but imperfect vaccine, a risk profile that varies hugely by age and the way the vaccines have been rolled out.

 

Consider the hypothetical world where absolutely everyone had received a less than perfect vaccine. Although the death rate would be low, everyone who died would have been fully vaccinated.

 

The vaccines are not perfect. PHE estimates two-dose effectiveness against hospital admission with the Delta infections at around 94%. We can perhaps assume there is at least 95% protection against Covid-19 death, which means the lethal risk is reduced to less than a twentieth of its usual value."

I understand the numbers and the reasoning. Just don't find them easily, if at all, other than these onesy-twosy press articles. Kudos to the UK for printing this one.

 

I'm not a conspiracy guy, just wish these numbers, for example the US, were available in some type of database so we could run them ourselves to get the whole picture.

[smylee52]

What worries me is the anti vaxers stretching out this pandemic longer than necessary . How about we institute vaccine passports you need to show for entry into an ICU if you have Covid . By the end of 2021 I expect everyone wanting to get a vaccine will get it . For those that refuse i respect your right to be an  _ _ _ _ _ _ _ so let's let natural  selection solve the dilemna .  Let's not waste time , money and resources on anti vaxers and allow them to follow their conscience . 

 

 

[frantick]

6 minutes ago, smylee52 said:

What worries me is the anti vaxers stretching out this pandemic longer than necessary . How about we institute vaccine passports you need to show for entry into an ICU if you have Covid . By the end of 2021 I expect everyone wanting to get a vaccine will get it . For those that refuse i respect your right to be an  _ _ _ _ _ _ _ so let's let natural  selection solve the dilemna .  Let's not waste time , money and resources on anti vaxers and allow them to follow their conscience . 

 

 

And what's your vice? Liquor? Food? Smoke? Women?

If so will need a passport for those too. Wouldn't want any of those diseases taking up valuable healthcare resources. 

 

Oh, sorry, I forgot you're young paleo, intermittent fasting, gym crushing, monk man.

 

As it's not the gun that kills you, but the man holding the gun, so it is not the unvaccinated man that kills you, but the virus. Learn to target your enemy.

 

[placeholder]

3 hours ago, frantick said:

vaccinated-hospital vs unvaccinated-hospital numbers

 

Show me where you find those numbers and I'll buy you a beer.

 

 

Is this as opposed to the 99 to 1 mortality rates suffered by unvaccinated vs. the vaccinated in hospitals? Isn't this actually the more important statistic?

[placeholder]

21 minutes ago, frantick said:

And what's your vice? Liquor? Food? Smoke? Women?

If so will need a passport for those too. Wouldn't want any of those diseases taking up valuable healthcare resources. 

 

Oh, sorry, I forgot you're young paleo, intermittent fasting, gym crushing, monk man.

 

As it's not the gun that kills you, but the man holding the gun, so it is not the unvaccinated man that kills you, but the virus. Learn to target your enemy.

 

Well, if I smoke cigarettes and expose others to second hand smoke, despite the consequences for others, you okay with that? If I drive a car while drunk, is that okay with you? When someone's behavior affects the health of others, that's where the problem arises.

[Chomper Higgot]

9 hours ago, ArcticFox said:

I keep hearing this too, but I never see the studies backing that assertion.  All we hear are 'experts' who tell the public to trust them.  My trust in government ran out decades ago.  I want to see studies, data, and hard facts. 

Now regarding the statement "Unvaccinated people are pools for the virus to mutate."  This animal study shows it's probably the other way around, i.e., Vaccinated people are likely the source of virus mutation.

According to the study, vaccinated people are pools for the virus to mutate - IF - the vaccination does not convey full immunity.  And guess what?  None of the current crop of Covid vaccines provide the recipient with full immunity.

So the commonly accepted narrative being floated out by politicians and the press is that the unvaccinated are creating mutants that creates severe disease in the vaccinated. 

This study shows the opposite to be true:  "Our data show that anti-disease vaccines that do not prevent transmission can create conditions that promote the emergence of pathogen strains that cause more severe disease in unvaccinated hosts."

This is the exact opposite of what is being said by presidents, PMs, and high-level health care bureaucrats.
The former is a political statement; the latter is a scientific observation backed by research and analysis.

https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198

Here’s the head of the CDC making the statement:

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/us-coronavirus-deaths-nearly-all-among-unvaccinated-cdc-head-2021-7

 

And while you waffle on about about wanting to see the source data/science, here’s someone else who made the same argument:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/04/fit-and-healthy-man-42-from-southport-who-rejected-vaccine-dies-of-covid

 

Stay lucky, you are going to need it.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

5 hours ago, frantick said:

I understand the numbers and the reasoning. Just don't find them easily, if at all, other than these onesy-twosy press articles. Kudos to the UK for printing this one.

 

I'm not a conspiracy guy, just wish these numbers, for example the US, were available in some type of database so we could run them ourselves to get the whole picture.

The data is available from the CDC.

 

The ability to understand data is not widely available.

 

Its why we employ experts and why airlines don’t provide passengers with the test data for all components of every aircraft they fly on.

 

This faux interest in data is just that, faux, a sham pretense of skepticism being rooted in anything other than personality problems.

[1FinickyOne]

10 hours ago, frantick said:

What worries me more is the mainstream media blasting fear stories left and right to remain relevant.

 

Big print: Next Variant Could be Killer!

 

Small print: Equally, the next variant could be much milder.

I wish my worries could be so easily addressed.. 

 

You can turn the news off... the virus plies onward... 

[Ryan754326]

10 hours ago, MrJ2U said:

Unvaccinated people are pools for the virus to mutate.

 

 

All of the information I’ve seen says that vaccinated people can still get infected. Wouldn’t that mean that the virus can mutate inside their bodies?

[Chomper Higgot]

9 hours ago, frantick said:

vaccinated-hospital vs unvaccinated-hospital numbers

 

Show me where you find those numbers and I'll buy you a beer.

 

 

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/pdfs/mm7032e3-H.pdf

 

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/pdfs/mm7032e3-H.pdf

 

Plenty more ore data available from the CDC but please feel free to continue claiming there is no data. 

 

I’m not drinking alcohol at the moment but thanks for your kind offer.

[mikebike]

11 hours ago, frantick said:

What worries me more is the mainstream media blasting fear stories left and right to remain relevant.

 

Big print: Next Variant Could be Killer!

 

Small print: Equally, the next variant could be much milder.

What worries me even more us that in this day and age people do not understand that MSM always has an agenda. They are the voice of power, not the voice of the people. Expecting anything different is crazy.

[mikebike]

10 hours ago, ArcticFox said:

CNN and AP are not science.  That television. Entertainment.  BTW, The Director of the National Institute of Health recently walked back on the 99% assertion.  She changed it to something like, "Well most of the cases are unvaccinated." 

I'm a "Show Me The Science" kind of guy.  Link the studies up and let me see the source data.  But you know what?  Organizations like the NIH won't release the source data.  "Trust us!"

Hell no.  Publish the data.

http://publichealth.lacounty.gov/phcommon/public/media/mediapubhpdetail.cfm?prid=3302

[mikebike]

10 hours ago, frantick said:

vaccinated-hospital vs unvaccinated-hospital numbers

 

Show me where you find those numbers and I'll buy you a beer.

 

 

See above. I'm in NST. You can send me a craft ale.