Sinovac shot first then AstraZeneca yields better results than 2 shots of Sinovacs

[oldcpu]

3 minutes ago, wensiensheng said:

A non peer reviewed Thai study. Hmm.

 

let’s see check back in 6 months time and see how the 2 sinovac with AZ booster works out in comparison to 2 AZ. No one actually knows yet.

Indeed. A lot of things are not known. ... No one knows long term effects of mRNA. No studies yet on Moderna as a booster after AZ. ... 

 

A lot of chances are being taken globally. The longer the wait for studies, the more people die. This is not an easy call to make.

[oldcpu]

23 minutes ago, mtls2005 said:

 

I think I'd trust a bar-stool "doctor" before any of these morons.

 

That was an article, not the actual study. One really needs to see the study.

 

Honestly? I would trust their efforts far more than your baseless comments.

 

Why? They are at least trying. You are just shooting peanuts from the peanut gallery

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by oldcpu

[Eric Loh]

1 hour ago, oldcpu said:

Indeed. A lot of things are not known. ... No one knows long term effects of mRNA. No studies yet on Moderna as a booster after AZ. ... 

 

A lot of chances are being taken globally. The longer the wait for studies, the more people die. This is not an easy call to make.

This is a concern seldom brought up regarding the technology behind RNA vaccines and inactivated virus vaccines. 

 

Inactivated virus vaccines were introduced at the end of the 19th century and since been used to treat ailments like typhoid, polio and even the seasonal flu.
 

The RNA vaccines only started human trials in 2009. There are people who feel safer to be vaccinated with inactivated virus vaccines because of their long history of studies and health safety aspects. In a recent study published in the New England Journal of Medicine, Sinovac has 87.5% effective in preventing hospitalization and 86.3% in preventing deaths.

 

Much of the fact has been lost by the noise created by distrust of mainland China. 

Edited August 20, 2021 by Eric Loh
wrong paragraph

[Crossy]

8 hours ago, webfact said:

However, AstraZeneca for the first dose and Sinovac for the second dose is not recommended.

 

I'm glad he said that, I'm booked for my second Az jab next week and I'd hate for them to try and palm me off with sinovac.

[Scrotobike]

Lets face it 2 shots of anything (Whiskey - from Scotland) has to be preferable to 2 shots of a quite ineffective vaccine that still has all the nasty side effects of a real vaccine.

[club]

4 hours ago, hotchilli said:

Yeah okay... 

I will take my chances with 2 jabs of Moderna with a Moderna booster 8 months after second jab. Don't like the idea of mixing vaccines especially when Sinovac is one of them

[oldcpu]

1 minute ago, club said:

I will take my chances with 2 jabs of Moderna with a Moderna booster 8 months after second jab. Don't like the idea of mixing vaccines especially when Sinovac is one of them

Best wishes, and if in Thailand please stay healthy in the mean time. You could have a bit of a wait.

[club]

6 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Best wishes, and if in Thailand please stay healthy in the mean time. You could have a bit of a wait.

Fly back to states in 6 weeks. Thank you

[Bkk Brian]

3 hours ago, wensiensheng said:

Let’s put it this way. No one, and I mean no one, is suggesting to use sinovac as a “booster” for another vaccine. Or as a second shot for another vaccine. Yes, there are various mix and match trials going on. But none where sinovac is used to enhance another vaccine.

 

obfuscate if you wish, but that is the reality. Sinovac is better than nothing, but not better than other vaccines.

 

in Thailand’s case, it is not casual curiosity causing them to try and increase the efficacy and effectiveness of sinovac by adding a dose of AZ. It’s clearly because of some concern over the efficacy and effectiveness of two sinovac doses against delta. And the only available option open to them is to use AZ as a second dose, for the simple reason that it is the only other vaccine to which they currently have access in any quantity.
 

So any investigation by the Thai’s on mix and match is born from necessity to improve on an unsatisfactory situation, not from a desire to enhance a current satisfactory situation to something even better.

Well put and agree with that assessment 100%

 

Firstly there are no Thai studies on covid robust enough to be published and given expert anaylsis by via peer review. There are simply not enough details and required criteria in them to do so, so we have to rely on these often short summaries of claimed results.

 

Previous so called Thai studies stated that Sinovac antibodies waned 50% after 40 days! Considering they have the least efficacy against any strain this in itself is a worry. In another observation the Thai Red Cross Emerging Infectious Diseases Health Science Centre at the Faculty of Medicine of Chulalongkorn University, who were fully inoculated with the Chinese-made Sinovac vaccine, showed rapid reduction of antibody levels, from 90% during the initial stage, to between 30% and 40%.

 

Then you have the very worrying report that it is only 3% effective after the first dose, as reported by the the British Medical Journal, "A study of the Sinovac rollout by the University of Chile reported that the vaccine was 56.5% effective two weeks after second doses were administered in the country. However, they also reported that one dose was just 3% effective (rising to 27.7% within two weeks of the second dose, and 56.5% two weeks later)."

 

Compare the above to the robust large real world trials on AZ with the delta strain. 

 

 

 

[Caldera]

10 hours ago, webfact said:

However, AstraZeneca for the first dose and Sinovac for the second dose is not recommended.

I'm relieved to hear that, otherwise I would have feared they'd consider giving me Sinovac for the 2nd jab.

[robblok]

9 hours ago, RichardColeman said:

If I wait for AZ to make a reciprocal recommendation statement saying mix AZ with Sinovac I'll probably die of old age

Of course because that would cut the profit of Astra. Do you really think they would even admit it if it worked ????

 

Still its stupid to do because astra is cheaper however with shortages its a viable option.

That is if this is al really true and verified by independent research or if they bring this out and let other researchers peer review it.

[mahtin]

Much personal research has convinced me that 2 shots are better than 1 shot, 3 shots are better than 2, and more than 4 are liable to get you shot-faced.

[MrJ2U]

10 hours ago, RichardColeman said:

So, in other words Dr's are saying Sinovac vaccine  only works well when mixed with a better vaccine ! 

Simple.

 

Its like mixing a little water with the dish soap so it'll go farther.

 

It doesn't necessarily clean better though.

[MrJ2U]

3 hours ago, oldcpu said:

Indeed. A lot of things are not known. ... No one knows long term effects of mRNA. No studies yet on Moderna as a booster after AZ. ... 

 

A lot of chances are being taken globally. The longer the wait for studies, the more people die. This is not an easy call to make.

What are gabbling about?

 

mRNA vaccines have been peer reviewed and audited by independent sources.

[Nojohndoe]

32 minutes ago, robblok said:

Of course because that would cut the profit of Astra. Do you really think they would even admit it if it worked ????

 

Still its stupid to do because astra is cheaper however with shortages its a viable option.

That is if this is al really true and verified by independent research or if they bring this out and let other researchers peer review it.

Is AZ not still being produced and sold for just above cost ? Unlike Pfizer who as soon as they learned the EU was rejecting AZ pumped up their price in the knowledge of gaining a much larger paying market !

 

[robblok]

14 minutes ago, Nojohndoe said:

Is AZ not still being produced and sold for just above cost ? Unlike Pfizer who as soon as they learned the EU was rejecting AZ pumped up their price in the knowledge of gaining a much larger paying market !

 

Sure that is business, the EU just wanted a better vaccine. I mean their choice and their budget. Pfizer just used that. Too bad for Europe but that is how business works.

 

The fact that Astra did not deliver on time and gave the UK first would have something to do with it too. Anyway it cost the Eu money. But personally think they made the right choice given the low infection rate now in the Netherlands compared to those in the UK.

 

We have 7 deaths UK had 111 deaths with a country 4 times larger. So seems other vaccines might work better then Astra. But that is just pure speculation on my part by comparing deaths. 

Edited August 20, 2021 by robblok

[Nojohndoe]

1 minute ago, robblok said:

Sure that is business, the EU just wanted a better vaccine. I mean their choice and their budget. Pfizer just used that. Too bad for Europe but that is how business works.

IMO it is extortionism. Pfizer's projected annual profit for this covid vaccine is 50 billion. Moderna  30 billion. And Moderna ,a Start Up Parent Company accepted US  Federal funding . Pfizer did not but demanded  guaranteed orders before commiting to development.

And both have assisted in demeaning competition.

 

[falang1969]

Let me get this straight, Sinovac + Astra Zeneca is better than Sinovac + Sinovac?

 

Well I never! Would never have guessed that!

[robblok]

17 minutes ago, Nojohndoe said:

IMO it is extortionism. Pfizer's projected annual profit for this covid vaccine is 50 billion. Moderna  30 billion. And Moderna ,a Start Up Parent Company accepted US  Federal funding . Pfizer did not but demanded  guaranteed orders before commiting to development.

And both have assisted in demeaning competition.

 

Its not a "nice"  way of doing business, Not ethical in my book but then again I am thankful for the vaccine. 

[Deli]

What about 2 shots of Pfizer or Moderna for everybody NOW ? No, cause Laurel & Hardy failed big time and nobody is laughing.

[johnch99]

of course it is going to work better when sinovac is useless people are just getting the immunisation from the astra jab

[Eric Loh]

13 minutes ago, johnch99 said:

of course it is going to work better when sinovac is useless people are just getting the immunisation from the astra jab

By your account, China will see overwhelmed hospitals and morgues.  

[ALLSEEINGEYE]

Thanks you for the update Captain Obvious!!!!

 

Why not just say that something is slightly better than nothing?

[oldcpu]

2 hours ago, MrJ2U said:

What are gabbling about?

 

mRNA vaccines have been peer reviewed and audited by independent sources.

So ? They have no idea as to any potential long term effects. No one does. What are you gabbing about?????? You need to read more. ???? Clearly you haven't read about concerns many have raised about mRNA. I personally think mRNA ok but many don't. 

[oldcpu]

2 hours ago, MrJ2U said:

 

 

Its like mixing a little water with the dish soap so it'll go farther.

Enjoy your dish soap bath. Those who take Sinovac, while not ideal, will have FAR better protection than you and your silly dish soap idea  ????????????

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, Nojohndoe said:

IMO it is extortionism. Pfizer's projected annual profit for this covid vaccine is 50 billion. Moderna  30 billion. And Moderna ,a Start Up Parent Company accepted US  Federal funding . Pfizer did not but demanded  guaranteed orders before commiting to development.

And both have assisted in demeaning competition.

 

Actually, Pfizer is cheaper than Moderna and arguably cheaper than Sinovac.

[huangnon]

4 hours ago, Eric Loh said:

This is a concern seldom brought up regarding the technology behind RNA vaccines and inactivated virus vaccines. 

 

Inactivated virus vaccines were introduced at the end of the 19th century and since been used to treat ailments like typhoid, polio and even the seasonal flu.
 

The RNA vaccines only started human trials in 2009. There are people who feel safer to be vaccinated with inactivated virus vaccines because of their long history of studies and health safety aspects. In a recent study published in the New England Journal of Medicine, Sinovac has 87.5% effective in preventing hospitalization and 86.3% in preventing deaths.

 

Much of the fact has been lost by the noise created by distrust of mainland China. 

Agreed. If Sinovac was approved for flights and stay without quarantine in the UK from here, I'd probably take this option

[oldcpu]

2 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Compare the above to the robust large real world trials on AZ with the delta strain. 

What many over look is in the current situation, Thailand can not today get enough AZ, nor get Moderna, nor get Pfizer ( aside from USA donations)..

 

Sinovac which is available now can be given in 2 jabs in 3 weeks. It takes 10 to 12 weeks for AZ for 2 jabs.

 

Better yet one can get Sinovac + one AZ mix in 3 weeks for efficacy almost as good as 2 AZ and better than only 1 AZ. ... And faster than 2 AZ. ... The obvious problem is minimal western recognition. But if one is not travelling then why risk one's life by waiting?

 

If one waits for 2 Pfizier, or two Moderna, or even 2 AZ there is a risk of dying while waiting for the better vaccine. I know it must irritate the China haters, but despite it's low efficacy at preventing infections, Sinovac does save lives as it's efficacy for preventing death is good. Not as good as mRNA but still good.

Edited August 20, 2021 by oldcpu

[Bkk Brian]

22 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

What many over look is in the current situation, Thailand can not today get enough AZ, nor get Moderna, nor get Pfizer ( aside from USA donations)..

 

Sinovac which is available now can be given in 2 jabs in 3 weeks. It takes 10 to 12 weeks for AZ for 2 jabs.

 

Better yet one can get Sinovac + one AZ mix in 3 weeks for efficacy almost as good as 2 AZ and better than only 1 AZ. ... And faster than 2 AZ. ... The obvious problem is minimal western recognition. But if one is not travelling then why risk one's life by waiting?

 

If one waits for 2 Pfizier, or two Moderna, or even 2 AZ there is a risk of dying while waiting for the better vaccine. I know it must irritate the China haters, but despite it's low efficacy at preventing infections, Sinovac does save lives as it's efficacy for preventing death is good. Not as good as mRNA but still good.

I've not overlooked that fact, however nor did the poster who I was responding and agreeing with overlook it. Its quite clear the reason they are doing it is because of a shortage of other vaccines. It does not change in any way my post or his.

[DavisH]

11 hours ago, tingtong said:

 

Somehow this option wasnt deemed best solution to vaccinate the medical staff... Pfeizer was used for that....why?

 

Another sales pitch to justify Sinovac...

Which was proven pretty uncertain to be good enough...refer to above fact regarding Pfeizer booster shot.

 

 

Most medical workers were vaccinated early, so they were given to shots of sinovac. Many of them have since been given a booster (az or pfizer).  More recently, they have been given sinovac that will/is being followed by az. sin+az gives similar antibody titers to az+az. This is a good thing, actually, as that will allow the doses to az to go much further. Most Thais don't travel overseas so they don't care that they are mixing vaccines.