Carbs or protein for breakfast?

[jojothai]

7 hours ago, Tropposurfer said:

Yoghurt is a great 'clean' source of protein and is easily absorbed (unless you're lactose intolerant). 

I have lactose intolerance and most yoghurts are no problem.
The problem with yoghurts with breakfast cereals is that they make me gain weight.
i find its better to use milk no lactose. Then  i still get good calcium.

I don't understand now having things like bacon / eggs at breakfast very much.

In Uk it was nice now and again, I find the same here but use it as a lunch treat a couple of days a week.
Oat based cereal is good for the digestive system and is being shown as reducing cholesterol, but do not add sugar.

Cheerios original have claim for fame but get boring, good muesli with fruits and no added sugar is nice.

Hahn mentioned earlier.  I find good.
Granola something to give variation. 

I ordered some Oatibix from abroad that I have at breakfast 3 to 4 times a week. Cannot find anywhere to buy here.
I find it helps with the digestive system. Not too sure if Weetabix would do the same, 
 

[Iron Tongue]

Intolerance to eggs?  Have you tried just having egg whites?  It's probably something in the yolk that bothers you.  

And if it turns out that the egg whites are what bothers you, you need to examine your protein intake.

What's missing from your choices is fiber.

 

[l4ml4m]

Nobody needs to eat carbs, not even animals, because some minimum carb is already found in any food, so why adding more if you do not do 5 hours cardio daily ?

The only thing you need is protein and nutrients, people telling anything else are useless idiots.

 

 

[elgenon]

On 9/5/2021 at 7:06 PM, tonray said:

You can use lean meats if chicken not your style. Lean Pork (Moo Ping is full of fat), or lean beef or grilled fish being the best option. Don't have to mix them, you can eat the oats with some fruit, and have the grilled lean meat on the side.

I eat plain yogurt with some granola of ancient seeds, nuts and whole grains and with mostly fresh fruits. Get your probiotics, anti-oxidants etc

[eezergood]

On 9/9/2021 at 12:51 PM, l4ml4m said:

Nobody needs to eat carbs, not even animals, because some minimum carb is already found in any food, so why adding more if you do not do 5 hours cardio daily ?

The only thing you need is protein and nutrients, people telling anything else are useless idiots.

 

 

You need dietary fats - hence the name of essential fatty acids, you also NEED water.

 

Carbs are recommended, but not essential  

[huangbe]

Breakfast is always a big deal for me. But as for me, I don't have an imagination to always (or at least sometimes) make different breakfasts. I usually eat yogurt or eggs with salad and a peace of wholeseads bread or sth for breakfast. 

[WaveHunter]

Carbs or protein for breakfast?  Neither actually.  Based on sound science, the best thing you can do for your body is to skip breakfast entirely (assuming you are in otherwise reasonably good health), and if you overweight and/or are leaning towards a pre-diabetic state, it is even more advantageous to skip breakfast.

 

It really is a false narrative that "breakfast is the most important meal of the day".  Your body has amply glycogen stores from your previous day's food intake to properly fuel the body through most of the the next day.  Any hunger that you feel by skipping breakfast is psychological, and your body will easily adjust to this in a matter of days.  

 

By abstaining from breakfast, you avoid a completely unnecessary insulin spike in the morning.  If you are overweight, this is even more important because low insulin levels allow your body to easily access fat stores to use as fuel.  If your body has high insulin levels, accessing fat stores is highly inefficient.

 

The very idea that you must eat every few hours is completely bogus and flies in the face of science.  We evolved from a hunter/gatherer culture and so our bodies are adapted to going long periods of time without food. 

 

What they are not adapted to doing is dealing with non-stop eating during your waking hours, which is how most people who have metabolic issues (like being overweight) habitually do. 

 

We have turned into a culture of people who eat three meals a day, and consume snacks in between meals.  We consume food from the moment we wake up in the morning until we climb into bed at night!

 

It's no wonder that so many people have abnormally high insulin levels, which in turn leads to nasty things like obesity, and worse, Diabetes type 2. 

 

It should be no surprise that obesity and Diabetes type 2 are at epidemic levels now throughout Western countries, when 50 years ago,that was not the case! 

 

Clearly there is a link between dietary habits and these metabolic syndromes, and scientific research during the last few years has made it clear the high insulin resulting from constantly consuming food throughout the day, and gross overconsumption of carbohydrates is the cause . 

 

Keeping insulin levels low by skipping breakfast and avoiding unnecessary carbs is the best thing you can do for your body, especially as you get older, and completely skipping breakfast is the easiest and most efficient way to do it.

Edited January 1, 2022 by WaveHunter

[KhunLA]

My first meal is usually corn flakes & raisins, so go for the simple & complex carb morning fix, since needing a bit of energy to take the dog for her first daily outing.  Usually have a large coffee a few hours before the first meal.

[robblok]

I go for oats with some protein powder and milk. Works for me losing fat like crazy.

 

People should just find out what works for them. We are all different in some way all have triggers we have certain likes and dislikes.  Some people can do less of something bad others like me need to totally cut bad stuff out because just a lil bit makes me take more.

 

I love black currant or aplle syrup with soda but cut it out completely. Im an all or nothing kind of guy that works for me.

[robblok]

On 1/1/2022 at 2:09 PM, WaveHunter said:

Carbs or protein for breakfast?  Neither actually.  Based on sound science, the best thing you can do for your body is to skip breakfast entirely (assuming you are in otherwise reasonably good health), and if you overweight and/or are leaning towards a pre-diabetic state, it is even more advantageous to skip breakfast.

 

It really is a false narrative that "breakfast is the most important meal of the day".  Your body has amply glycogen stores from your previous day's food intake to properly fuel the body through most of the the next day.  Any hunger that you feel by skipping breakfast is psychological, and your body will easily adjust to this in a matter of days.  

 

By abstaining from breakfast, you avoid a completely unnecessary insulin spike in the morning.  If you are overweight, this is even more important because low insulin levels allow your body to easily access fat stores to use as fuel.  If your body has high insulin levels, accessing fat stores is highly inefficient.

 

The very idea that you must eat every few hours is completely bogus and flies in the face of science.  We evolved from a hunter/gatherer culture and so our bodies are adapted to going long periods of time without food. 

 

What they are not adapted to doing is dealing with non-stop eating during your waking hours, which is how most people who have metabolic issues (like being overweight) habitually do. 

 

We have turned into a culture of people who eat three meals a day, and consume snacks in between meals.  We consume food from the moment we wake up in the morning until we climb into bed at night!

 

It's no wonder that so many people have abnormally high insulin levels, which in turn leads to nasty things like obesity, and worse, Diabetes type 2. 

 

It should be no surprise that obesity and Diabetes type 2 are at epidemic levels now throughout Western countries, when 50 years ago,that was not the case! 

 

Clearly there is a link between dietary habits and these metabolic syndromes, and scientific research during the last few years has made it clear the high insulin resulting from constantly consuming food throughout the day, and gross overconsumption of carbohydrates is the cause . 

 

Keeping insulin levels low by skipping breakfast and avoiding unnecessary carbs is the best thing you can do for your body, especially as you get older, and completely skipping breakfast is the easiest and most efficient way to do it.

Sorry but the we evolved bla bla bla is always laughable.

 

I normally agree a lot with you but just because we evolved a certain way does not mean its best for us. We evolved without medicine too. Remember our lifespan was not that long in the past. So the we evolved logic does not cut it with me. Also there was no one caveman it depended where and what season so to make the remarks you make is just not true. Some people did have access to food. We learned how to store food quite early. 

 

Insulin spikes can be controlled by amount of food and what kind of food. There have been plenty of tests and none have really shown that fasting is that great (sure there will be research showing it is but there is counter research showing its not needed. So its just whatever you pick.

 

In the end its about what you eat and how much of it you eat. I function best with some carbs (oats and protein) in the morning. Have never lost weight as fast as i do now. We are all a bit different and its all about finding something that fits us. So try whatever you like (unless its crazy outlandish) and see what fits you.

Its consistency that counts and you can't be consistent if your diet does not fit you. 

 

People are not overweight because they eat multiple times a day people are overweight because they eat too much in total and move too little. 

 

 

[WaveHunter]

18 hours ago, robblok said:

Sorry but the we evolved bla bla bla is always laughable.

 

I normally agree a lot with you but just because we evolved a certain way does not mean its best for us. We evolved without medicine too. Remember our lifespan was not that long in the past. So the we evolved logic does not cut it with me. Also there was no one caveman it depended where and what season so to make the remarks you make is just not true. Some people did have access to food. We learned how to store food quite early. 

 

Insulin spikes can be controlled by amount of food and what kind of food. There have been plenty of tests and none have really shown that fasting is that great (sure there will be research showing it is but there is counter research showing its not needed. So its just whatever you pick.

 

In the end its about what you eat and how much of it you eat. I function best with some carbs (oats and protein) in the morning. Have never lost weight as fast as i do now. We are all a bit different and its all about finding something that fits us. So try whatever you like (unless its crazy outlandish) and see what fits you.

Its consistency that counts and you can't be consistent if your diet does not fit you. 

 

People are not overweight because they eat multiple times a day people are overweight because they eat too much in total and move too little. 

 

 

NOTE: My previous post should have been deleted for errors, but so far it has not been.  Here is the correct reply:

 

My point is simply that breakfast is NOT the most important meal of the day.  Your last meal from the previous day provides all the glycogen you need, not only through the following morning but well into the day for most people. 

 

For most people, it takes about 18 hours to completely deplete your glycogen stores after the last meal.  So, if your last meal is, say, at 6pm, you have ample glycogen to last you through to lunch time the next day.

 

By NOT eating breakfast you give your body a chance to lower insulin levels enough to encourages lipolysis (tapping into stored body fat).  It also lessens the degree of lipogenesis (fatty acids being moved from the blood seam to the fat cells.

 

Most obese people follow some variant of Standard American Diet (SAD), meaning that they eat 3 meals a day and snack in between meals.  Obviously this means that their insulin levels are always high.

 

Chronically high insulin levels have been proven in countless studies in the last few years to: 

 

1) Inhibit lipolysis which means fewer fatty acids are available to fuel your muscles and other metabolically driven tissues.  You are therefore limiting your body's ability to burn fat.

 

2) Stimulates lipogenesis.  This means that fatty acids are moved from your bloodstream into fat cells.  Your body therefore is in a fat storing mode, not a fat burning mode.

 

3) Lipogenesis also causes carbs to be converted and stored as fat (i.e.: de novo lipogenisis.).  

 

This is all science-based.  The notion that "breakfast is the most important meal of the day" is not.

Edited January 11, 2022 by WaveHunter

[robblok]

21 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

My point is simply that breakfast is NOT the most important meal of the day.  Your last meal from the previous day provides all the glycogen you need, not only through the following morning but well into the day for most people. 

 

For most people, it takes about 18 hours to completely deplete your glycogen stores after the last meal.  So, if your last meal is, say, at 6pm, you have ample glycogen to last you through to lunch time the next day.

 

By NOT eating breakfast you give your body a chance to lower insulin levels enough to encourages lipolysis (tapping into stored body fat).  It also lessens the degree of lipogenesis (fatty acids being moved from the blood seam to the fat cells.

 

Most obese people follow some variant of Standard American Diet (SAD), meaning that they eat 3 meals a day and snack in between meals.  Obviously this means that their insulin levels are always high.

 

Chronically high insulin levels have been proven in countless studies in the last few years to: 

 

1) Inhibit lipolysis which means fewer fatty acids are available to fuel your muscles and other metabolically driven tissues.  You are therefore limiting your body's ability to burn fat.

 

2) Stimulates lipogenesis.  This means that fatty acids are moved from your bloodstream into fat cells.  Your body therefore is in a fat storing mode, not a fat burning mode.

 

3) Lipogenesis also causes carbs to be converted and stored as fat (i.e.: de novo lipogenisis.).  

 

This is all science-based.  The notion that "breakfast is the most important meal of the day" is not.

Basically what I am saying is that if you limit your food it does not really matter how you spread it out. 

 

A high amount of carbs at once will give a high insulin spike (proven by science)

A low amount of carbs gives a low insulin spike

 

So if the amount of food is the same it does not really matter how its spaced. its about quantity not timing. 

 

I get what your saying about snacking and stuff, but once you got your food program in order it does not really matter that much how you space your food. One meal or multiple. The amount of food is more important then when you take it. 

 

In your example your talking about someone who has no good food program then it certainly would help. But if you have a set amount of food already then how you space it does not really matter much as dividing your carbs in 3 smaller portions instead of one will give about the same insulin window as your one big insulin spike from all carbs at once.

 

That is how i see it. So in basis i can agree with you if we are talking about people who don't have a set program and just eat without thinking.

[WaveHunter]

44 minutes ago, robblok said:

Basically what I am saying is that if you limit your food it does not really matter how you spread it out. 

 

A high amount of carbs at once will give a high insulin spike (proven by science)

A low amount of carbs gives a low insulin spike

 

So if the amount of food is the same it does not really matter how its spaced. its about quantity not timing. 

 

I get what your saying about snacking and stuff, but once you got your food program in order it does not really matter that much how you space your food. One meal or multiple. The amount of food is more important then when you take it. 

 

In your example your talking about someone who has no good food program then it certainly would help. But if you have a set amount of food already then how you space it does not really matter much as dividing your carbs in 3 smaller portions instead of one will give about the same insulin window as your one big insulin spike from all carbs at once.

 

That is how i see it. So in basis i can agree with you if we are talking about people who don't have a set program and just eat without thinking.

It is not the insulin "spikes" that matters as much as the relative level of insulin in the body throughout the day. 

 

If insulin is always at a level that inhibits lipolysis and stimulates lipogenesis, your body will not be able to utilize stored fat efficiently, and will be more prone to store fast, as opposed to using stored fat as fuel.

 

This used to be a controversial hypothesis referred to as the "carbohydrate-insulin model of obesity", but science based studies during the last couple of years has proven it to be absolutely factual.

 

It is true whether you are a fit athlete with a good nutritional plan, or a sedentary person who eats junk food all day.  If you are consuming three or more meals per day, and also snacking in between (i.e.: sweets, energy bars, or, protein shakes that are so popular in gyms), your insulin levels will be high enough to cause impaired fat metabolism.

 

However, when you come out of a fast that is induced by 8 hours of sleep, and then skip breakfast, you are lowering insulin levels throughout the day to a point where they do not inhibit lipolysis or stimulate lipogenesis, and therefore allows the body to optimally utilize consumed calories throughout the rest of the day to fuel the body, and minimally store them as fat.

 

What I like most about the metabolic sciences is that they are discovering new things every day that dispel old myths that many less well-read medical doctors still preach to their patients.

Edited January 11, 2022 by WaveHunter

[robblok]

1 minute ago, WaveHunter said:

It is not the insulin "spikes" that matters as much as the relative level of insulin in the body throughout the day. 

 

If insulin is always at a level that inhibits lipolysis and stimulates lipogenesis, your body will not be able to utilize stored fat efficiently, and will be more prone to store fast, as opposed to using stored fat as fuel.

 

This used to be a controversial hypothesis referred to as the "carbohydrate-insulin model of obesity", but science based studies during the last couple of years has proven it to be absolutely factual.

 

It is true whether you are a fit athlete with a good nutritional plan, or a sedentary person who eats junk food all day.

 

Coming out of a fast induced during your sleeping hours and skipping breakfast achieve the goal of lowering insulin levels throughout the day to a point where they do not inhibit lipolysis or stimulate lipogenesis, and therefore allows the body to optimally utilize calories to fuel the body, and minimally store them as fat.

You are missing the point that if you eat the same amount of carbs, it does not matter one bit.

 

The insulin will be in your blood equally long.

 

One 210 gram serving will last longer then  3 70 gram servings. The result is the same. 

 

I have tested this with blood glucose meters (it might not be a 100% match but its close enough to be of no difference).

 

Just try it yourself once.  

[WaveHunter]

32 minutes ago, robblok said:

You are missing the point that if you eat the same amount of carbs, it does not matter one bit.

 

The insulin will be in your blood equally long.

 

One 210 gram serving will last longer then  3 70 gram servings. The result is the same. 

 

I have tested this with blood glucose meters (it might not be a 100% match but its close enough to be of no difference).

 

Just try it yourself once.  

Yes, I also use a glucose / ketone meter, and you make a good point EXCEPT what I am saying is that by extending the sleep-induced fasting by skipping breakfast means that your resting insulin levels stay low enough throughout the rest of the day so that lipolysis and lipogenesis do not impact fat metabolism as much.

 

I'm not saying that whether or not you eat breakfast is like an "on/off switch" in this regard.  It's more like a "dimmer switch".  Optimal fat metabolism can not occur when insulin levels are too high, and so, by extending your fasted state by not eating until, say, lunch, you have effectively made fat metabolism more efficient.

 

It's not some sort of dramatic change, but over time it can (and usually does) make the difference between  a person becoming obese as they age, or one who is able to maintain a healthy percentage of body fat as they get older.

 

That's the thing that so many people misinterpret about things like OMAD (one meal per day).  It isn't about cutting out meals and getting all your calories in one meal but rather, it is about extending the fasted state after sleeping to keep insulin at a lower level throughout the day...just a little bit.  It is about finding that happy medium where insulin levels to not negatively impact lipolysis or lipogenesis.

Edited January 11, 2022 by WaveHunter

[robblok]

7 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

Yes, I also use a glucose / ketone meter, and you make a good point EXCEPT what I am saying is that by extending the sleep-induced fasting by skipping breakfast means that your resting insulin levels stay low enough throughout the rest of the day so that lipolysis and lipogenesis do not impact fat metabolism as much.

 

I'm not saying that whether or not you eat breakfast is like an "on/off switch" in this regard.  It's more like a "dimmer switch".  Optimal fat metabolism can not occur when insulin levels are too high, and so, by extending your fasted state by not eating until, say, lunch, you have effectively made fat metabolism more efficient.

 

It's not some sort of dramatic change, but over time it can (and usually does) make the difference between  a person becoming obese as they age, or one who is able to maintain a healthy percentage of body fat as they get older.

 

That's the thing that so many people misinterpret about things like OMAD (one meal per day).  It isn't about cutting out meals and getting all your calories in one meal but rather, it is about extending the fasted state after sleeping to keep insulin at a lower level throughout the day...just a little bit.  It is about finding that happy medium where insulin levels to not negatively impact lipolysis or lipogenesis.

To be honest i have my doubts, as I said i tested it and it takes the body the same amount of time to process 210 grams of carbs at once or in 3 times 70 grams. So I am not sure what your saying because you have insulin in an equally long duration in your body.

 

Be it one long time from eating 210 grams or 3 shorter times of 70 grams. So im sorry im skeptical in this case.  

[WaveHunter]

2 hours ago, robblok said:

To be honest i have my doubts, as I said i tested it and it takes the body the same amount of time to process 210 grams of carbs at once or in 3 times 70 grams. So I am not sure what your saying because you have insulin in an equally long duration in your body.

 

Be it one long time from eating 210 grams or 3 shorter times of 70 grams. So im sorry im skeptical in this case.  

I understand your skepticism, and it's fair to be skeptical, but I'm not talking about the relationship of insulin to glucose levels.  That's only one aspect of what insulin does..

 

What I'm talking about is insulin as a hormone, and its' effect on lipid metabolism....two completely different things, really.

 

There is a really good paper on the physiologic effects of Insulin on lipid metabolism from a well vetted academic source (The Yale University School of Medicine.)

https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/physrev.00063.2017

 

And a more simplified version from the Colorado State University School of Medicine at:

http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/endocrine/pancreas/insulin_phys.html

 

 

Edited January 11, 2022 by WaveHunter

[Hummin]

Are you allergic to the egg white or the yolk? 

 

0,8g protein pr kg if not working out up to 1,2g kg if you normal weight training scedule. 1 - 2 times pr muscle group pr week, 3 - 5 days a week. 

 

Dependes on your body weight today, but a normal man passed 50 needs 2 200kg kalorie pr day up to 2 800,- for status Q on your daily activity. 

 

You need carbs and fat as well, and some say about 50g of fat pr day is enough and then you calculate your need for carbs for the rest of the need of your kalorie. 

 

I eat oats, a varity of nuts, youghurt and banana for breakfest. A good start in the morning. Make it easy and not so complicated to continius keep going to reach your goals. I find 2 200 kalories for a day during 3 months easy to do, and keep off alchohol and most sugar it is 6 kg for me loss and when I do so I also gain a little bit mor muscle mass while Im doing it. I do this once a year. Normal intake for me is 2 800 to 3 000 kalorie a day, and every new year now, Im ready to start my diet again. 

 

As said keep it simple

 

 

[robblok]

1 hour ago, WaveHunter said:

I understand your skepticism, and it's fair to be skeptical, but I'm not talking about the relationship of insulin to glucose levels.  That's only one aspect of what insulin does..

 

What I'm talking about is insulin as a hormone, and its' effect on lipid metabolism....two completely different things, really.

 

There is a really good paper on the physiologic effects of Insulin on lipid metabolism from a well vetted academic source (The Yale University School of Medicine.)

https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/physrev.00063.2017

 

And a more simplified version from the Colorado State University School of Medicine at:

http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/endocrine/pancreas/insulin_phys.html

 

 

Thanks, but it actually proves my point. They say the problem arises if glycogen is more then 5% of the livers weight. Average liver is 1500 grams, that means if you get above 75 grams of glycogen its a problem. Below that no problem for fat metabolism. 

 

So a 75 gram serving of carbs in the morning (more then i take) is not a problem as it would not rise above the problematic 5% then. I think your making too much about a small thing. 

 

Just my opinion and then your bigger serving of carbs at your one meal a day IS going to impact your fat metabolism while smaller servings are not going to be a problem. 

[robblok]

@WaveHunter

 

After thinking about it even more i also forgot that a lot of glycogen is stored in muscles. So that 75 grams in the liver is not the only place it can be stored. So i think the chances of your body not burning fat IF your on a caloric defict already are slim to none. 

 

Because in your example your talking about that glycogen is full, however for people on a caloric deficit (most people who are trying to lose weight). That certainly is not a given. I know for a fact that when I am on a caloric deficit im more flat (my muscles) because of the lack of glycogen in them.  So combine that with space in the liver. 

 

The situation your describing is not something that will happen often. I think in your eagerness to promote the one meal a day diet (suitable for some a friend of mine follows it) you forget the big picture of what a caloric deficit does with you. It certainly depletes your glycogen reserves over time especially if you exercise. 

 

Now of course if your not in a caloric deficit or eating huge amounts of carbs you might be right but nobody ever said you would lose weight if your not in a caloric deficit and most people know that eating too much carbs is not good.

 

Sometimes you have to read through data and see if it really applies to the situation your in. While it is possible for people to be in a caloric deficit and still eat too many carbs its not a common thing. But yes it is a strike against carbs but does not mean one meal a day and fasting is needed. 

 

Because like the paper says breakdown of fats gets disturbed once your liver glycogen is more then 5% of its weight below that it does not really matter. 

 

I like to keep my food programs simple and worry about the big things first.

- caloric deficit

- enough protein (universally recommended when dieting to combat muscle loss as that slows down your basal metabolic rate)

- a good exercise program (again i won't go to deep in what is perfect as i believe the 80/20 rule applies diet is king exercise helps a bit

- Also for exercise just doing it good with major compound  exercises and not worrying too much about biceps curls helps.

- Cardio to your exercise program (as i find out to my shame)

 

[WaveHunter]

15 hours ago, robblok said:

Thanks, but it actually proves my point. They say the problem arises if glycogen is more then 5% of the livers weight. Average liver is 1500 grams, that means if you get above 75 grams of glycogen its a problem. Below that no problem for fat metabolism. 

 

So a 75 gram serving of carbs in the morning (more then i take) is not a problem as it would not rise above the problematic 5% then. I think your making too much about a small thing. 

 

Just my opinion and then your bigger serving of carbs at your one meal a day IS going to impact your fat metabolism while smaller servings are not going to be a problem. 

Again, I am not talking about insulin's effect on glucose levels; I am talking about excessive insulin's physiological effect on lipid metabolism, more specifically its' effect on Inhibiting lipolysis (fewer fatty acids being available to fuel your muscles and other metabolically driven tissues), and Stimulating lipogenesis. (fatty acids being moved from your bloodstream into fat cells.).

 

Put another way, chronically high insulin levels in the long-term interfere with "fat adaptation".  What I mean by that is that the metabolic pathways that normally allow the body to shift over to burning stored fat as fuel are compromised, and made less efficient when glycogen levels fall.

 

It is the main reason that I like to practice a low carb, keto-like diet.  As a cyclist, I hate the idea of "carb loading" before a ride or using sports drinks / gels on a ride to maintain glycogen levels because it makes me feel lethargic, and eventually even nauseous after too many gels.   

 

I think the whole concept of carb-loading is wrong!  Instead, by being fat-adapted through a low carb diet, my body is forced to become very efficient at shifting over to fat stores when glycogen stores become depleted (i.e.: "when you hit the wall").  A lot of athletes are beginning to discover this is really an effective alternative to carb-loading.

 

On the one hand, I'm just voicing my personal opinion based on my own experiences of course, but on the other hand there is a lot of science to support it.

 

Of course, everybody is different so I'm not criticizing you if you disagree, BUT I don't think you should dismiss this idea just because you feel off-kilter when your glycogen stores get low because it takes time to become "fat adapted"

 

When I started trying to get away from carb-loading, it took weeks for my body to become fully fat-adapted, and during the transition period I felt horrible on many rides.  But then when it started kicking in, I was really surprised how well it works...and most importantly, from a physiological standpoint, there is a lot of peer-reviewed science-based research to support what I'm talking about.

 

I mean, the human body is a complex and wondrous machine and even today we've barely even scratched the surface in understanding how it really works ????

 

Edited January 12, 2022 by WaveHunter

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

Again, I am not talking about insulin's effect on glucose levels; I am talking about excessive insulin's physiological effect on lipid metabolism, more specifically its' effect on Inhibiting lipolysis (fewer fatty acids being available to fuel your muscles and other metabolically driven tissues), and Stimulating lipogenesis. (fatty acids being moved from your bloodstream into fat cells.).

 

Put another way, chronically high insulin levels in the long-term interfere with "fat adaptation".  What I mean by that is that the metabolic pathways that normally allow the body to shift over to burning stored fat as fuel are compromised, and made less efficient when glycogen levels fall (i.e.: "when you hit the wall").

 

It is the main reason that I like to practice a low carb, keto-like diet.  As a cyclist, I hate using sports drinks / gels on rides. 

 

I think the whole concept of carb-loading is wrong!  Instead, by being fat-adapted through a low carb diet, my body is forced to become very efficient at shifting over to fat stores when glycogen stores become depleted.  A lot of athletes are beginning to discover this is really an effective alternative to carb-loading.

 

I'm just voicing my personal opinion based on my own experiences of course, and everybody is different so I'm not criticizing you if you disagree, BUT I don't think you should dismiss this idea just because you feel off-kilter when your glycogen stores get low because it takes time to become "fat adapted", because there's a lot of recent and well vetted scientific research that supports this notion.

 

When I started trying to get away from carb-loading, it took weeks for my body to become fully fat-adapted, and during the transition period I felt like <deleted> on many rides.  But then when it started kicking in, I was really surprised how well it works...and most importantly, from a physiological standpoint, there is a lot of peer-reviewed science-based research to support what I'm talking about.

 

I mean, the human body is a complex and wondrous machine and even today we've barely even scratched the surface in understanding how it really works ????

 

Again read your own article:

 

1. Insulin promotes synthesis of fatty acids in the liver. As discussed above, insulin is stimulatory to synthesis of glycogen in the liver. However, as glycogen accumulates to high levels (roughly 5% of liver mass), further synthesis is strongly suppressed.

 

So stay below that no problem. 

 

That is where i got the numbers from 5% of the average liver weight and then glycogen that amounts to a certain amount of carbs. 

 

You have to understand your own article and it says no problem processing fats at all if you stay below the 5% of liver weight. So basically, your overdoing it for nothing. 

 

So if vetted stuff supports your notion then use that vetted stuff to back up your claims not this article that basically states there is no problem UNLESS you go over the 5%

 

Maybe that is the problem you don't interpret what is read but assume things. When you read stuff you need to understand what they are saying. A lot of science it taken out of context to support the claims your making.  Like your claim of no fat burning because of the insulin. True.. but only if more then 5% (but they rather conveniently don't mention that when they make their points for their SPECIAL diets).

 

I am all going for low carb, i'm not sure how high my carbs are during a day but its not high 50 grams of oats and 2 slices of bread.  That is about all the carbs i take in (slices of bread are filled with 200 grams of grilled chicken). The oats is together with protein. 

 

Evening no carbs at all as my last meal of the day around 17:00 is salad with chicken. Basically, my diet is high proteins, lowish carbs and veggies. Fats too from cheese and olive oil. 

 

I have never seen my bodyfat go down so fast as now. I suspect its the rowing and the fact that i 100% quite all syrups.

[WaveHunter]

3 hours ago, robblok said:

Again read your own article:

 

1. Insulin promotes synthesis of fatty acids in the liver. As discussed above, insulin is stimulatory to synthesis of glycogen in the liver. However, as glycogen accumulates to high levels (roughly 5% of liver mass), further synthesis is strongly suppressed.

 

So stay below that no problem. 

 

That is where i got the numbers from 5% of the average liver weight and then glycogen that amounts to a certain amount of carbs. 

 

You have to understand your own article and it says no problem processing fats at all if you stay below the 5% of liver weight. So basically, your overdoing it for nothing. 

 

So if vetted stuff supports your notion then use that vetted stuff to back up your claims not this article that basically states there is no problem UNLESS you go over the 5%

 

Maybe that is the problem you don't interpret what is read but assume things. When you read stuff you need to understand what they are saying. A lot of science it taken out of context to support the claims your making.  Like your claim of no fat burning because of the insulin. True.. but only if more then 5% (but they rather conveniently don't mention that when they make their points for their SPECIAL diets).

 

I am all going for low carb, i'm not sure how high my carbs are during a day but its not high 50 grams of oats and 2 slices of bread.  That is about all the carbs i take in (slices of bread are filled with 200 grams of grilled chicken). The oats is together with protein. 

 

Evening no carbs at all as my last meal of the day around 17:00 is salad with chicken. Basically, my diet is high proteins, lowish carbs and veggies. Fats too from cheese and olive oil. 

 

I have never seen my bodyfat go down so fast as now. I suspect its the rowing and the fact that i 100% quite all syrups.

How many obese people do you think have glycogen mass below 5% of their liver weight?  Probably ZERO. 

 

I think we are talking about two different things.  I am talking purely about the physiological mechanisms associated with high insulin levels resulting from excessive carbohydrates in the typical SAD diet, which are usually the same people who "graze" on food throughout the day, eating three or more meals per day and snack in between them.

 

The equation is very simple:

Excessive insulin =  Decreased levels of lipolysis

Excessive insulin = Increased levels of lipogenesis

 

Decreased levels of lipolysis + Increased levels of lipogenesis encourages storage of fat in fat cells instead of it being used as fuel. 

 

This is just basic metabolic science based on peer reviewed research in the last few years.

 

Do you agree or not?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 12, 2022 by WaveHunter

[robblok]

9 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

How many obese people do you think have glycogen mass below 5% of their liver weight?  Probably ZERO. 

 

I think we are talking about two different things.  I am talking purely about the physiological mechanisms associated with high insulin levels resulting from excessive carbohydrates in the typical SAD diet, which are usually the same people who "graze" on food throughout the day, eating three or more meals per day and snack in between them.

 

The equation is very simple:

Excessive insulin =  Decreased levels of lipolysis

Excessive insulin = Increased levels of lipogenesis

 

Decreased levels of lipolysis + Increased levels of lipogenesis encourages storage of fat in fat cells instead of it being used as fuel. 

 

This is just basic metabolic science based on peer reviewed research in the last few years.

 

Do you agree or not?

 

Of course I agree with that, however you went further with your statement and said that for everyone OMAD would be great.

 

I just pointed out that that is absolutely not true and anyone on a good food program can keep the glycogen below 5%. 

 

You even used yourself as an example (im thinking you don't need it as your glycogen are below those levels)

 

Same goes for me i can have my breakfast and not do OMAD and it wont matter a thing for fat burn.

 

Do I agree that obese people should cut back on carbs and or do OMAD sure I do.

 

I just don't go for blanket statement. Because once someone is on a good food program the glycocen levels will drop automatically to below the 5%. So OMAD is just ONE of the ways to diet.

 

Its not needed, it does not mean breakfast is not needed like you stated it totally depends on the situation of the person who your talking about.

 

Its just that people start touting the Insulin levels and fasting as magical, while this research clearly shows its not needed at all if you have a healthy diet. Its not going to improve anything then. 

 

I like finding diets / food plans that fit people then to force people in a one size fits all thing with some mumbo jumbo that just not totally true and taken out of context.

 

One of the guys i train with is doing OMAD, I on the other hand would never ever use it as it just does not suit me and as proven by the research you just posted would not add anything to my diet.

 

Im against blanket statements and the taking out of context of things.

 

Most of the time we are quite on the same page. Lowering carbs for obese people.. YES SURE

OMAD or lowering carbs for everyone.. HELL NO

 

 

 

[WaveHunter]

On 1/12/2022 at 1:24 PM, robblok said:

Of course I agree with that, however you went further with your statement and said that for everyone OMAD would be great.

 

I just pointed out that that is absolutely not true and anyone on a good food program can keep the glycogen below 5%. 

 

You even used yourself as an example (im thinking you don't need it as your glycogen are below those levels)

 

Same goes for me i can have my breakfast and not do OMAD and it wont matter a thing for fat burn.

 

Do I agree that obese people should cut back on carbs and or do OMAD sure I do.

 

I just don't go for blanket statement. Because once someone is on a good food program the glycocen levels will drop automatically to below the 5%. So OMAD is just ONE of the ways to diet.

 

Its not needed, it does not mean breakfast is not needed like you stated it totally depends on the situation of the person who your talking about.

 

Its just that people start touting the Insulin levels and fasting as magical, while this research clearly shows its not needed at all if you have a healthy diet. Its not going to improve anything then. 

 

I like finding diets / food plans that fit people then to force people in a one size fits all thing with some mumbo jumbo that just not totally true and taken out of context.

 

One of the guys i train with is doing OMAD, I on the other hand would never ever use it as it just does not suit me and as proven by the research you just posted would not add anything to my diet.

 

Im against blanket statements and the taking out of context of things.

 

Most of the time we are quite on the same page. Lowering carbs for obese people.. YES SURE

OMAD or lowering carbs for everyone.. HELL NO

 

 

 

OK, I agree with you that OMAD is not suitable for everybody. Even though I have practiced it and feel comfortable with it, I'm planning to change over to two meals a day (lunch and dinner).  My point all along is not about OMAD but about skipping breakfasts.

 

In real simplistic terms, I'm just saying that prolonging the fasted state of sleep by skipping breakfast is beneficial, not just for obese people but for everyone, and the reason is simply that it allows the body to reduce insulin levels throughout the day just enough so that pathways for BOTH glucose and lipid pathways are optimized.

 

If you are always in a satiated state, you are not optimally exercising the pathways for lipid metabolism, and like anything that is not adequately exercised, it becomes compromised if not used.

 

And again, I fail to find any science-based studies that prove that "breakfast is the most important meal of the day". When you look purely at the metabolic mechanisms involved, there are more negative aspects to eating breakfast than positive ones.

 

I also agree that many proponents of Keto overemphasize insulin as a culprit, but the fact remains that there is a growing obesity and diabetes epidemic in the world today, and it coincides with the emergence of junk foods, 24 hour supermarkets, and the prolific use of processed foods, all of which cause may people to have turned into "food grazers" who consume food from the moment the wake up until the moment they go to bed.

 

What's more, most of those food grazers consume FAR MORE carbohydrates than the body needs.  This leads to excessively high insulin levels in the body. 

 

The result of abnormally high insulin levels over time are:

• 1) Inhibited lipolysis  (fewer fatty acids are available to fuel muscles and other metabolically driven tissues.  

• 2) Stimulated lipogenesis.  a shift from "fat burning mode" to "fat storing mode"

OK, sure, if you consume large quantities of carbs but keep your glucose to 5% as you describe (i.e.: by burning the glucose through exercise for instance), increased insulin levels are still present, and over time this will lead to diminished efficiency of insulin receptors in the cells, and a shift in metabolic pathways for glucose/lipids that cause inhibited lipolysis and stimulated lipogenesis.

 

It's NOT all about glucose levels!  Insulin plays just as important a role in metabolic health, and keeping it at optimal levels is just as important as keeping glucose at optimal levels.

 

Edited January 14, 2022 by WaveHunter

[big dendrobenaes]

can not beat cornflakes wiv a banana, or other fruits with hot milk !!!!

[WaveHunter]

19 minutes ago, big dendrobenaes said:

can not beat cornflakes wiv a banana, or other fruits with hot milk !!!!

Personally I love hot Muesli with chopped bananas, and it used to be my favorite breakfast...but now it is an occasional joyful but sort of sinful snack. I don't do too well with grains or dairy products.????

 

Edited January 14, 2022 by WaveHunter

[Hummin]

6 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

Personally I love hot Muesli with chopped bananas, and it used to be my favorite breakfast...but now it is a lunch item for me, or a sinful snack ????

 

Some muesli contains awful amount of sugar. What brand you buy here?

 

https://www.webmd.com/diet/health-benefits-muesli

Edited January 14, 2022 by Hummin

[WaveHunter]

Just now, Hummin said:

Some muesli contains awful amount of sugar. What brand you buy here?

Ergo my "sinful" snack ????.  I like Alpen brand best which they used to sell at the big Food Mart on Thappraya Rd in Jomtien, but they seem to have stopped stocking it ????. Alpen also makes a sugar-free version but I never saw it on the shelves.

 

 

[Hummin]

Just now, WaveHunter said:

Ergo my "sinful" snack ????.  I like Alpen brand best which they used to sell at the big Food Mart on Thappraya Rd in Jomtien, but they seem to have stopped stocking it ????. Alpen also makes a sugar-free version but I never saw it on the shelves.

 

 

I like to make my own based on oats and nuts with a dash of naturell yoghurt and a banana. Good start or at least a good meal any time of the day.