Carbs or protein for breakfast?

[WaveHunter]

1 hour ago, drtreelove said:

If I have been led astray, then astray is where I want to be.  I'm just saying, my health is improving weekly, along with sense of well being, spiritual awareness, progressive mastery of my profession, marriage, and cycling legs and lungs that allow me to ride and breathe in the refreshing farmland, hills and forests. Dropping sugar, alchohol, seed oils, preserved foods, plastic containers, Rx medications, recreationals, and consuming low carb high fat foods, high nutrient density organically grown foods as much as possible, exercising, chi kung, using TCM herbs and acupuncture, observing Ayurvedic Tridosha and TCM dietary principles, yin and yang, five elements, thermal qualities of heating and cooling foods, is not for everybody, 200 years of modern science plus thousands of years of Taoist and Ayurvedic empirical research, all works for me, take it or leave it. 

 

Back to the OP. My favorite breakfast is fish and eggs. 

So you are a cyclist?  Me too!  I used to live in Chiang Mai and miss my daily climbs on Doi Suthep so much!  I envy you if you are still living there!

 

Look, I am not criticizing you or your lifestyle.  Bottom line is whatever works for you is the best way to do things...if they genuinely do, in fact, really work for you.

 

Many people however, delude themselves into believing something works simply because a highly persuasive Guru told them it works. 

 

My problem with gurus like Berg and Ekberg is that they say a lot of things that are simply not the whole truth, from a scientific perspective, and they lead many people astray, particularly the ones that do not follow up with diligent vetting of what they have heard.

 

You may feel comfortable discounting scientific research.  I discount much of it as well, but what I do NOT discount is the "Scientific Method" since that has proven over time to be the ONLY way at arriving at the truth.

 

So many people think of gurus like Berg as being the voice of gospel truth, when in fact, they are not really presenting the full picture.  If you look at Berg's YouTube contents, so much of it touts completely unproven concepts like the virtues of apple cider vinegar, a myriad of different health supplements (many of which he sells), and a whole host of other notions that are highly questionable.

 

His concepts regarding metabolic health are particularly troublesome to me because they are littered with half-truths, and out-of-context cherry picked facts that support his agenda, and rarely provides science-based sources to support his claims, or only sources with a vested interest.

 

The main problem I have with berg and others "Gurus" like him  is that most people who watch his videos are basically lazy people who will accept whatever he says, without doing their own research to see if what he says is actually true.

 

I'm not saying his videos are worthless.  he addresses a wide range of legitimate health concerns.  My issue with him and others like him is he is not unbiased, and present only what support his biased narrative. 

 

However, his videos are good starting off points to explore a new topic you know nothing about, and then to go on and do your own research on Google, and for that purpose I subscribe to his channel and watch many of his videos.

 

I'm just saying his videos should absolutely NOT be considered the final word on any topic.

Edited July 20, 2022 by WaveHunter

[robblok]

19 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

I'm sorry, but the point you are making are not germain because you are only addressing the vanity aspect of losing weight, not the health perspective:

• Do you think that after cutting processed foods, and only eating healthy carbs there is an advantage to going keto or low carb. I am talking about lower then say 200 grams of carbs a day (of stuff like oats / sweet potato  / rice berry brown rice / some fruits ect
• if so how many % more fat (not weight) will you lose then
• Do you think that on a diet as I described you cannot lose weight because im eating carbs

 

What I am trying to say is that "fat loss" is not the real issue from a health perspective.  It is only a symptom of a bigger problem and that problem is poor metabolic health.

 

But OK, I will address your points. 

 

Cutting processed foods and only eating good carbs and limiting carbs to 200g is of course preferred to eating unhealthy, highly processed foods and over consuming .  No question about it. 

 

So the question then becomes, how much body fat will be lost in adopting that sort of nutritional change?  IMO, probably not that much if all you are doing is restricting some calories. 

 

200 grams of carbs will still result in high insulin levels, and if you have been a habitual over-consumer of carbs prior to that change, your insulin response will remain low.

 

Regardless of what you seem to believe, it is a basic scientific fact that if insulin levels are high, access to stored body fat for energy will be highly impaired.  I mean, one of the main purposes of insulin is to determine whether energy should be used or stored.  If insulin levels are high, it will be stored, not accessed for energy.

 

Now, If you restrict calories enough to result in a body fat reduction of, say, 2 pounds per week, it will take you far longer to reduce body fat significantly than most people have the willpower to achieve.

 

I know so many people that are otherwise healthy but wish to drop body fat percentage primarily for reasons of vanity (and there's nothing wrong with that).  The problem is that most of those people have had that as a goal for years, and never achieve it!

 

The simple reason is that the body does not like caloric restriction, and it does everything possible to remedy it.  The body reacts to caloric restriction by reducing the basal metabolic rate firstly, so you may be eating fewer calories, but the body's response to lowering the BMR only results in a no-sum change since you are now burning fewer calories.

 

That is an incredible uncomfortable state and so after a few days most people will abandon the diet.  They may just think of it as a temporary thing (i.e. taking a day off from their diet), the same thing will happen over and over, and in the long run, no body fat will be lost.

 

I mean, no offense intended, but in the three or four years we have traded views on this forums,  you are always talking about wanting to shed a few percentage points of body fat.  If you are still talking about this wish for over 3 years now, maybe you should reconsider your strategy.

 

IMO, dieting to lose body fat is not a wise strategy.  It is a goal based on the desire to look good, not a goal based on the desire to be healthy. 

 

If however, you look at excess body fat as a symptom of a bigger problem, namely a metabolic imbalance (i.e.: Metabolic Syndrome), you may realize that the real problem is hormonal, not simply too many calories consumed.

 

The negative aspects of aging such as higher body fat levels and sarcopenia (loss of muscle due to aging) are not just due to inactivity and poor diet.  They are most importantly the result of poor metabolic health.

 

What I mean is that long-term poor nutrition and not enough physical activity results in negative changes to hormonal balance.  This in turns leads to dysfunctional activity on a cellular level.  For instance, within every cell are structures called "mitochondria".  Basically they are what generate power for our bodies.  They are like the power plants that power our bodies.

 

Amazingly, they even resemble little electric motors!  They generate power just like an electrical generator by physical processes, not chemical processes!  Little structures within the mitochondria literally spin around when viewed under an electron microscope, resulting in the generation of ATP.

 

Take a look at this:

Screen Recording 2022-07-20 at 10.32.45 AM.mov 19.93 MB · 6 downloads

(see the complete video here)

 

Through habitual poor nutrition, these mitochondria can become dysfunctional from alterations in proteins, and the accumulation of these maladapted proteins. 

 

Even more impressive is the growing body of research linking these impaired proteins with disease states that include Alzheimer's, Parkinsons, general dementia, and even many forms of cancer!

 

Believe it or not, excessive carbohydrate consumption is now thought to be a probable cause of these proteins becming dysfunctional. 

 

This notion is born out of the groundbreaking, nobel-prize winning work of Yoshinori Ohsumi, where he documented how these maladapted proteins are purged from within the cells, broken down to basic amino acids, allowing new fully functional proteins to restore proper functioning within the mitochondria.  it is called "autophagy"

 

And how was that accomplished...through a period of nutritional fasting!

 

So, my point here is that your goal should not be to simply shed a few pounds of body fat for reasons of vanity, but it should be to improve your metabolic health which will take care of that problem for you WITHOUT the need to resort to ineffective fat-loss diets which have always proven to be ineffective in the long run.

 

This is NOT just Health Guru speak.  It is all based on Gold-standard scientific research of the Nobel Prize winning kind!

 

I'm not a scientist, nor am I advocating fasting for everybody, but I have proven it to myself, that a intermittent, prolonged fast that results in autophagy is the easiest and most effective way to restore a healthy metabolic state where the mitochondria are functioning at full capacity, insulin sensitivity, as well as a whole host of other metabolic hormones are restored to their proper state.

 

The vanity desire for fat loss will just be a by-product of that since the homeostatic state of the body is to have a HEALTHY level of body fat.

 

TO sum up, the goal should be a healthy metabolic state, not merely to look good through a forced reduction of body fat.

 

 

 

First of you come with a lot of B.S. without proof again going into the miracle of fasting. If I did not know you better id think you were starting a new religion. That something happens under a microscope is about the same proof as the guy who said that vit C wil help you lose weight. Your looking at things from a microscope instead of seeing the whole thing. You been duped by your own research.

 

Your much touted autophagy happens automatic and without fasting (oops bummer whole theory shot) Plus its not only fasting its even exercise and caloric restricton... did you not say caloric restrictions did not work ?

 

So all that B.S about autophagy and the need for fasting is shot out of the water. There are many ways to get auophagy. 

Quote

Autophagy occurs within your body at all times. Still, exercising, fasting, restricting your calorie intake, or following a ketogenic diet can stimulate the process.

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/signs-of-autophagy#Precautions

 

 

Quote

FACTS ABOUT AUTOPHAGY

Autophagy is happening all the time in all of the tissues of our body, whether or not you’re fasting. It is an important process to keep us healthy, and defects in autophagy genes have been associated with many diseases.

Studies show that mild stressors like exercise and food deprivation induce autophagy in animals and likely humans as well. Unfortunately, we don’t have a good way to measure autophagy in humans, and we don’t know how long it takes to induce “autophagic flux.”

We can assume, though, that time-restricted eating, in which you fast somewhere between 12-16 hours, is likely too short. In mice, the minimal amount of time to induce autophagy was 24 hours and in some tissues, it took up to 3 days. What is that in “human days”? I don’t know. I think we can assume that somewhere between 3-5 days would do the trick, but again, until we have more research, it’s all hypothetical.

 

Quote

https://www.whitneyerd.com/2020/01/the-truth-about-autophagy.html

As for your amount of carbs i have seen no research backing that up. You pull a lot B.S out of ... i dont know where. Same like your autophagy acting like fasting is the only way while it happens all the time. Your totally trapped in your own echo chamber only looking for proof not widening your search.

[WaveHunter]

2 hours ago, robblok said:

First of you come with a lot of B.S. without proof again going into the miracle of fasting. If I did not know you better id think you were starting a new religion. That something happens under a microscope is about the same proof as the guy who said that vit C wil help you lose weight. Your looking at things from a microscope instead of seeing the whole thing. You been duped by your own research.

 

Your much touted autophagy happens automatic and without fasting (oops bummer whole theory shot) Plus its not only fasting its even exercise and caloric restricton... did you not say caloric restrictions did not work ?

 

So all that B.S about autophagy and the need for fasting is shot out of the water. There are many ways to get auophagy. 

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/signs-of-autophagy#Precautions

 

 

 

As for your amount of carbs i have seen no research backing that up. You pull a lot B.S out of ... i dont know where. Same like your autophagy acting like fasting is the only way while it happens all the time. Your totally trapped in your own echo chamber only looking for proof not widening your search.

I know you enjoy playing devil's advocate.  All I have to do is mention certain keywords and it sets you off with rude comments like referring to what I say as B.S. .  Seriously, you seem to place more importance in what you read on bodybuilding forums than what legitimate and well vetted scientists have to say...like NOBEL PRIZE WINNING scientists.

 

You are WRONG about autophagy!  Yes, it is a process that happens 24/7, and it is enhanced by exercise somewhat,  but in a fasted state it is vastly accelerated...and that is what makes all of the difference!  

 

In a fasted state, autophagy is radically ramped up, and that is why all serious scientific studies of autophagy are done with subject in a fasted state. 

 

Why?  Because in a fasted state, gluconeogenesis results in the breakdown of proteins into amino acids at an VASTLY accelerated rate!  That does not occur with only caloric restriction or with exercise to the same degree!   The accelerated state is what makes ALL of the difference!

 

DO you even understand the basic biology of gluconeogenesis?  You obviously know NOTHING about what ACTUALLY occurs in the human body while in a fasted state.

 

You also do not seem to understand the SCIENTIFIC proof that links excessive carbohydrate consumption with dysfunctional changes to intracellular proteins, or the fact that accelerated autophagy brought on by being in a fasted state will break down those dysfunctional proteins so the body can replace them with fully functional ones.

 

These concepts have been PROVEN to be true!  They don't hand out Nobel prizes for unproven science!

 

I don't pull these concepts I discuss out of thin air.  I don't get my information from YouTube videos or BS sources like bodybuilding forums or short articles posted on the internet like on Healthline.  

 

What I know about metabolic sciences I get from foundational studies that are well vetted, like George Cahill's famous landmark studies into Diabetes, or his even more groundbreaking research into Liver and Kidney Metabolism in the fasted state.

 

George Cahill is really the father of metabolic sciences.  You probably don't even recognize his name, and think it is some biased, nutty advocate of fasting.

 

The truth is that his work was done well before the idea of fasting was even mainstream. His work was directed at understanding starvation in underdeveloped countries back before the concept of therapeutic fasting was even a topic of discussion.

 

His most famous contribution was his studies into starvation, where he defined for the first time, the precise endocrinology and metabolism of the fasted state via biochemistry.  It was all summed up in his famous paper, FUEL METABOLISM IN STARVATION

 

You can call such studies BS if you wish, but they are the foundation of modern scientific understanding of how our bodies work! 

 

You can call the Nobel-prize winning research into autophagy by Yoshinori Ohsumi "BS" if you want, and rely instead on your half-baked definition of autophagy that you pick up by stray articles on Healthline, and think you know all there is to know about Autophagy but that is just plain foolish, and therefore your views amount only to pseudoscience.

 

You are a very smart man and I enjoy our discussions on a myriad of subjects, but you seem to be totally ignorant of the metabolic sciences, and seem to lash out at me whenever I reference LEGITIMATE SCIENCE!  

 

Perhaps instead of having that knee-jerk reaction to my references to metabolic science, maybe you should read about them FROM LEGITIMATE SOURCES

 

Sorry, but I have no more patience to discuss this subject with you until you are better educated in basic metabolic science, instead of bro-science, and cherry picked, out-of-context tidbits of information.

Edited July 21, 2022 by WaveHunter

[robblok]

20 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

I know you enjoy playing devil's advocate.  All I have to do is mention certain keywords and it sets you off with rude comments like referring to what I say as B.S. .  Seriously, you seem to place more importance in what you read on bodybuilding forums than what legitimate and well vetted scientists have to say...like NOBEL PRIZE WINNING scientists.

 

You are WRONG about autophagy!  Yes, it is a process that happens 24/7, and it is enhanced by exercise somewhat,  but in a fasted state it is vastly accelerated...and that is what makes all of the difference!  

 

In a fasted state, autophagy is radically ramped up, and that is why all serious scientific studies of autophagy are done with subject in a fasted state. 

 

Why?  Because in a fasted state, gluconeogenesis results in the breakdown of proteins into amino acids at an VASTLY accelerated rate!  That does not occur with only caloric restriction or with exercise to the same degree!   The accelerated state is what makes ALL of the difference!

 

DO you even understand the basic biology of gluconeogenesis?  You obviously know NOTHING about what ACTUALLY occurs in the human body while in a fasted state.

 

You also do not seem to understand the SCIENTIFIC proof that links excessive carbohydrate consumption with dysfunctional changes to intracellular proteins, or the fact that accelerated autophagy brought on by being in a fasted state will break down those dysfunctional proteins so the body can replace them with fully functional ones.

 

These concepts have been PROVEN to be true!  They don't hand out Nobel prizes for unproven science!

 

I don't pull these concepts I discuss out of thin air.  I don't get my information from YouTube videos or BS sources like bodybuilding forums or short articles posted on the internet like on Healthline.  

 

What I know about metabolic sciences I get from foundational studies that are well vetted, like George Cahill's famous landmark studies into Diabetes, or his even more groundbreaking research into Liver and Kidney Metabolism in the fasted state.

 

George Cahill is really the father of metabolic sciences.  You probably don't even recognize his name, and think it is some biased, nutty advocate of fasting.

 

The truth is that his work was done well before the idea of fasting was even mainstream. His work was directed at understanding starvation in underdeveloped countries back before the concept of therapeutic fasting was even a topic of discussion.

 

His most famous contribution was his studies into starvation, where he defined for the first time, the precise endocrinology and metabolism of the fasted state via biochemistry.  It was all summed up in his famous paper, FUEL METABOLISM IN STARVATION

 

You can call such studies BS if you wish, but they are the foundation of modern scientific understanding of how our bodies work! 

 

You can call the Nobel-prize winning research into autophagy by Yoshinori Ohsumi "BS" if you want, and rely instead on your half-baked definition of autophagy that you pick up by stray articles on Healthline, and think you know all there is to know about Autophagy but that is just plain foolish, and therefore your views amount only to pseudoscience.

 

You are a very smart man and I enjoy our discussions on a myriad of subjects, but you seem to be totally ignorant of the metabolic sciences, and seem to lash out at me whenever I reference LEGITIMATE SCIENCE!  

 

Perhaps instead of having that knee-jerk reaction to my references to metabolic science, maybe you should read about them FROM LEGITIMATE SOURCES

 

Sorry, but I have no more patience to discuss this subject with you until you are better educated in basic metabolic science, instead of bro-science, and cherry picked, out-of-context tidbits of information.

The point is you have no proof, the pages i visited say there is really limited study done and nowhere does it say that the enhanced version is so much better. There are maybe a handful of studies that is not the proof that you think it is. Most of these studies were on animals not humans.

 

Plus there has never been proof that your enhanced state is better. That is what you and lot of people like you make of it. You act like we know a lot about this process, yet your own nobel price winner says this

Autophagy research is still at an early stage, and our understanding of the physiological role of autophagy in particular is only in its infancy.  (got this from the site on Yoshinori Ohsumi)

 

How can  you make such bold statements as the enhanced version is better while we are still in its infancy. The thing is you make claims the Nobel prize winner would never have made. Could please link where a study between normal occuring autophagy and enhanced version is compared ? I would be willing to read that.

 

I keep saying the same thing your in an echo chamber and are suffering from confirmation bias. I did not start typing about this without before reading several sources. All claiming that there has been minimal study on humans (certainly not a long term study on people who fast and those who don't when autphagy is concerned). So how can you claim all those things when the studies and your prime example say its in its INFANCY.
 

Quote

 

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04842864

 a consequence, there is great interest in developing new experimental approaches to prevent age-associated chronic diseases. In fact, caloric restriction (CR) has been shown to stimulate autophagy and extend lifespan and healthspan in multiple experimental models. While these CR studies were carried out in simpler organisms, such as flies, worms, and mice,7-9 similar studies in humans are largely lacking. 

 

So how can you when even science sites and your famous Dr Ohsumi all say its in its infancy and that studies are lacking make such huge claims. 

 

Sorry but I have no more interest in discussing this until you stop making things up that are not proven. 

 

Yoshinori Ohsumi (its in its infancy)

Government clinical trials (human studies are lacking)

Waverunner.. this is the new miracle and everyone should do it 

 

See the difference between those scientists and you ?

[TravelerEastWest]

On 7/20/2022 at 11:23 AM, WaveHunter said:

So you are a cyclist?  Me too!  I used to live in Chiang Mai and miss my daily climbs on Doi Suthep so much!  I envy you if you are still living there!

 

Look, I am not criticizing you or your lifestyle.  Bottom line is whatever works for you is the best way to do things...if they genuinely do, in fact, really work for you.

 

Many people however, delude themselves into believing something works simply because a highly persuasive Guru told them it works. 

 

My problem with gurus like Berg and Ekberg is that they say a lot of things that are simply not the whole truth, from a scientific perspective, and they lead many people astray, particularly the ones that do not follow up with diligent vetting of what they have heard.

 

You may feel comfortable discounting scientific research.  I discount much of it as well, but what I do NOT discount is the "Scientific Method" since that has proven over time to be the ONLY way at arriving at the truth.

 

So many people think of gurus like Berg as being the voice of gospel truth, when in fact, they are not really presenting the full picture.  If you look at Berg's YouTube contents, so much of it touts completely unproven concepts like the virtues of apple cider vinegar, a myriad of different health supplements (many of which he sells), and a whole host of other notions that are highly questionable.

 

His concepts regarding metabolic health are particularly troublesome to me because they are littered with half-truths, and out-of-context cherry picked facts that support his agenda, and rarely provides science-based sources to support his claims, or only sources with a vested interest.

 

The main problem I have with berg and others "Gurus" like him  is that most people who watch his videos are basically lazy people who will accept whatever he says, without doing their own research to see if what he says is actually true.

 

I'm not saying his videos are worthless.  he addresses a wide range of legitimate health concerns.  My issue with him and others like him is he is not unbiased, and present only what support his biased narrative. 

 

However, his videos are good starting off points to explore a new topic you know nothing about, and then to go on and do your own research on Google, and for that purpose I subscribe to his channel and watch many of his videos.

 

I'm just saying his videos should absolutely NOT be considered the final word on any topic.

Completely agree with your comments about Berg and Ekberg.

[TravelerEastWest]

On 7/22/2022 at 6:30 AM, robblok said:

The point is you have no proof, the pages i visited say there is really limited study done and nowhere does it say that the enhanced version is so much better. There are maybe a handful of studies that is not the proof that you think it is. Most of these studies were on animals not humans.

 

Plus there has never been proof that your enhanced state is better. That is what you and lot of people like you make of it. You act like we know a lot about this process, yet your own nobel price winner says this

Autophagy research is still at an early stage, and our understanding of the physiological role of autophagy in particular is only in its infancy.  (got this from the site on Yoshinori Ohsumi)

 

How can  you make such bold statements as the enhanced version is better while we are still in its infancy. The thing is you make claims the Nobel prize winner would never have made. Could please link where a study between normal occuring autophagy and enhanced version is compared ? I would be willing to read that.

 

I keep saying the same thing your in an echo chamber and are suffering from confirmation bias. I did not start typing about this without before reading several sources. All claiming that there has been minimal study on humans (certainly not a long term study on people who fast and those who don't when autphagy is concerned). So how can you claim all those things when the studies and your prime example say its in its INFANCY.
 

So how can you when even science sites and your famous Dr Ohsumi all say its in its infancy and that studies are lacking make such huge claims. 

 

Sorry but I have no more interest in discussing this until you stop making things up that are not proven. 

 

Yoshinori Ohsumi (its in its infancy)

Government clinical trials (human studies are lacking)

Waverunner.. this is the new miracle and everyone should do it 

 

See the difference between those scientists and you ?

You are not wrong when you say more study is needed. But step by step evidence is coming out in support of the benefits hits of fasting.

 

Dr Walter Longo has not won the Noble prize but people say he is in the running... howeever he is is a very serious scientist and he has done studies in animals and in humans supporting the benefits of short fasts and fasting mimicking diets. https://www.valterlongo.com/fasting-mimicking-program-and-longevity/

 

Dr Alan Goldhammer is not as focused about research perhaps but at his True North Center in California they have been doing long water fasts for many years without problems and lost of success. They are working on studies showing fasting lowers blood pressure better than medicine and other studies. Note he is not an MD but works with Ads and those with Phds https://www.healthpromoting.com/water-fasting/fasting-research

 

So is there lots of proof about the benefits of water fasting our there? Not yet - but recently more and more research is being done.

 

Meanwhile I have heard it said that the effects of water fasting are often possible with lots of exercise and a very healthy lifestyle but fasting is deeper and faster...

 

Again the benefits of extended water fasting are not proven but seems likely...

[WaveHunter]

20 hours ago, TravelerEastWest said:

...Meanwhile I have heard it said that the effects of water fasting are often possible with lots of exercise and a very healthy lifestyle but fasting is deeper and faster...

 

Again the benefits of extended water fasting are not proven but seems likely...

There has been a lot of studies in the last few years (serious studies) that are proving that moderate exercise while in the fasted state is not only possible, but essential for protecting lean body mass. 

 

The consensus up until just a few years ago was that you should NOT exercise while fasting.  It has pretty much proven to be completely wrong, and many who followed that advice (including me) lost significant lean body mass (LBM).

 

Without going into the biochemistry of it all, exercise stimulates the body  to release IGF-1 by dramatically increasing Growth hormone production, and indirectly reduces gluconeogenesis.  In a sedentary state this will not happen, and that's why a sedentary faster can often lose a lot of lean body mass during a prolonged fast.

 

If "moderate" resistance training and cardio training are conducted during a prolonged fast (greater than 5 days), LBM loss will be minimal; nothing you could not restore within a week of being in a gym.  Read about Dr. Peter Attia as a starting point to learn more about this.

 

I'm not going to reference these studies or defend them since that will always lead to a bunch of back and forth arguments and nonsense on a forum like this, but anyone that takes the time to do their own due diligence and become familiar with these studies, and also take the time to understand the ACTUAL metabolic changes that occur in the fasted state, will see that these studies make sense.

 

These studies were carried out by very well established researchers from major universities, not silly YouTube Gurus spewing unsubstantiated pseudo-science.

Edited August 20, 2022 by WaveHunter

[TravelerEastWest]

On 8/20/2022 at 1:33 PM, WaveHunter said:

There has been a lot of studies in the last few years (serious studies) that are proving that moderate exercise while in the fasted state is not only possible, but essential for protecting lean body mass. 

 

The consensus up until just a few years ago was that you should NOT exercise while fasting.  It has pretty much proven to be completely wrong, and many who followed that advice (including me) lost significant lean body mass (LBM).

 

Without going into the biochemistry of it all, exercise stimulates the body  to release IGF-1 by dramatically increasing Growth hormone production, and indirectly reduces gluconeogenesis.  In a sedentary state this will not happen, and that's why a sedentary faster can often lose a lot of lean body mass during a prolonged fast.

 

If "moderate" resistance training and cardio training are conducted during a prolonged fast (greater than 5 days), LBM loss will be minimal; nothing you could not restore within a week of being in a gym.  Read about Dr. Peter Attia as a starting point to learn more about this.

 

I'm not going to reference these studies or defend them since that will always lead to a bunch of back and forth arguments and nonsense on a forum like this, but anyone that takes the time to do their own due diligence and become familiar with these studies, and also take the time to understand the ACTUAL metabolic changes that occur in the fasted state, will see that these studies make sense.

 

These studies were carried out by very well established researchers from major universities, not silly YouTube Gurus spewing unsubstantiated pseudo-science.

Thank you for suggesting a very interesting point of view suggesting that exercise during extended fasting is good for preserving lean body mass if I understand you correctly?

 

I am familiar with Dr Attia but other doctors don't agree with everything he says. And it has certainly not been proven that exercise during long fasts are a good idea. Actually not much of anything has been proven about long water fasts lots more research is needed. Does Dr Logo feel that exercise is a good idea?

 

Dr Goldhammer and his team at True North (includes MDs) have done recent research and have fasted in a clinical setting literally thousands of people over many years with minimal problems and zero deaths. They say clearly that rest is very important for healing and exercise is while doing extended water fasts is a bad idea - again they have lots of documented experience.

 

In Germany another established clinic has done research but they don't seem to do actual water fasts...Not sure what other medical clinic has done research with large numbers of patients?

 

I have water fasted for up to 16 days and for me (N of 1...) normal exercise is simply not possible - for me normal exercise is an hour a day of hill walking and lots of light weights. So I don't know maybe it would be good for me to exercise I have an open mind and would love to read more...

 

I would love to see studies that back up your point. Please send me a message if you don't want to post on the forum.

Edited August 21, 2022 by TravelerEastWest

[WaveHunter]

14 hours ago, TravelerEastWest said:

Thank you for suggesting a very interesting point of view suggesting that exercise during extended fasting is good for preserving lean body mass if I understand you correctly?

 

I am familiar with Dr Attia but other doctors don't agree with everything he says. And it has certainly not been proven that exercise during long fasts are a good idea. Actually not much of anything has been proven about long water fasts lots more research is needed. Does Dr Logo feel that exercise is a good idea?

 

Dr Goldhammer and his team at True North (includes MDs) have done recent research and have fasted in a clinical setting literally thousands of people over many years with minimal problems and zero deaths. They say clearly that rest is very important for healing and exercise is while doing extended water fasts is a bad idea - again they have lots of documented experience.

 

In Germany another established clinic has done research but they don't seem to do actual water fasts...Not sure what other medical clinic has done research with large numbers of patients?

 

I have water fasted for up to 16 days and for me (N of 1...) normal exercise is simply not possible - for me normal exercise is an hour a day of hill walking and lots of light weights. So I don't know maybe it would be good for me to exercise I have an open mind and would love to read more...

 

I would love to see studies that back up your point. Please send me a message if you don't want to post on the forum.

I am familiar with Goldhammer and True North, as well as the clinic in Germany I think you are referring to which is the Buchinger Wilhelmi Clinic. 

 

The problem I have with such clinics is that they are obviously "for profit" institutions, and while I've never heard anything negative about either clinic, most of their PR efforts that you see on YouTube are seriously lacking in science-based information and they emphasize anecdotal information that celebrates the virtues of fasting. 

 

I particularly dislike the way they discuss prolonged fasting as a panacea for everything under the sun, stressing that that your protocol MUST be done under the direct supervision of an MD trained specifically in fasting protocols, which is just nonsense, and shameless self-promotion.

 

I prefer to educate myself ONLY from science-based sources with no bias based on financial gain.  My belief that "moderate" exercise while in a fasted state is based not only on such information, but it is backed up by personal experience.

 

My first attempt at a prolonged fast (7 days) was a failure because I followed the common notion that being sedentary during the fast was a very important element of fasting.  As a result, I had a horrible time of it.  I felt lethargic which is a normal component of fasting BUT that should only occur until ketone body production begins to ramp up (i.e.: 72 hours into the fast).  However, for me it continued until day 5 when I finally gave up.

 

Worse, I didn't recover after I began eating again.  My workouts (both resistance training and cardio) took about 3 weeks before before they were back to where they were before the fast.  It was obvious to me that something was seriously wrong. 

 

That's when I got more serious about the underlying science to how the human body responds to being in the fasted state. 

 

Probably the most important work I read about were the studies by Dr. George Cahill's into the physiological changes that occur in starvation. I linked it below, and it is an excellent primer on the physiological stages that the human body goes through when deprived of exogenous nutrition.

 

His research which was summed up in the paper, "FUEL METABOLISM IN STARVATION" was a landmark study that fundamentally changed metabolic science and laid the groundwork for safe and effective modern-day fasting protocols.

 

It is essential reading if you are to really understanding what truly happens to the human body while in the fasted state, and some of those changes are complete unique to human beings, as opposed to animals in general.

 

The problem I have with most modern-day proponents of fasting is that many of them don't have a clue of the actual biochemical and physiological changes that occur when the human body is deprived of exogenous macronutrients...and that includes many practicing MD's!

 

As for clinical studies concerning the relationship of exercise to fasting, I have read many.  You can as well by googling.  I purposely don't like citing specific studies since you can't just look at one particular study to form YOUR OWN opinion. 

 

Usually when you want to effectively research a topic, you need to learn from many different sources (including the ones that you might feel a bias against)  and only then begin to form YOUR OWN opinion

 

Personally, I do not downplay any well-vetted sources.  I have watched many interviews and speeches, ands read articles from Goldhammer, Dr. Jason Fung, Dr. Stephen Phinney, and a host of other noted authorities that study prolonged fasting.  I even regularly watch YouTube videos by Berg and Ekberg, since all such sources often have some element of truth.  But, in the final analysis, it's up to you the individual to decide for yourself what is right and what is wrong.

 

Too many just a quick and simple answer to a very complex topic such as this and will usually only look to one source for that.

 

A good place to start for me was with Peter Attia's blog simply because he is both an MD and a triathlete, and he has done extensive study of both fasting and exercise physiology, and practices prolonged fasting protocols on a quarterly basis every year, and considers exercise while in the fasted state to be an integral part of the protocol. 

 

I know he has vested financial interests with a few companies that make products for fasting, but still I find him to be honest, and most of his information led me to other sources and I was able to develop my own valid and actionable course of action.

 

BUT...The real acid test for me is what actually works FOR ME.  All I can say is that ever since I incorporate exercise into my prolonged fasting sessions (7 day fasts, 4 times per year), they have all gone very smoothly with minimal lean body mass loss, good blood tests after the fast, no need for an exotic refeed plan, and high levels of energy during and after the fast.

 

Just a quick point:  In addition to exercise, the other big mistake I made on my initial fast was not considering the importance of electrolyte supplementation, specifically sodium, potassium, and magnesium.  Not only to it stave off headaches and the usual "keto flue" but it helps you sleep better and tolerate exercise better while in a fast.

 

I hope some of what I said you an find useful ????

 

 

[TravelerEastWest]

2 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

I am familiar with Goldhammer and True North, as well as the clinic in Germany I think you are referring to which is the Buchinger Wilhelmi Clinic. 

 

The problem I have with such clinics is that they are obviously "for profit" institutions, and while I've never heard anything negative about either clinic, most of their PR efforts that you see on YouTube are seriously lacking in science-based information and they emphasize anecdotal information that celebrates the virtues of fasting. 

 

I particularly dislike the way they discuss prolonged fasting as a panacea for everything under the sun, stressing that that your protocol MUST be done under the direct supervision of an MD trained specifically in fasting protocols, which is just nonsense, and shameless self-promotion.

 

I prefer to educate myself ONLY from science-based sources with no bias based on financial gain.  My belief that "moderate" exercise while in a fasted state is based not only on such information, but it is backed up by personal experience.

 

My first attempt at a prolonged fast (7 days) was a failure because I followed the common notion that being sedentary during the fast was a very important element of fasting.  As a result, I had a horrible time of it.  I felt lethargic which is a normal component of fasting BUT that should only occur until ketone body production begins to ramp up (i.e.: 72 hours into the fast).  However, for me it continued until day 5 when I finally gave up.

 

Worse, I didn't recover after I began eating again.  My workouts (both resistance training and cardio) took about 3 weeks before before they were back to where they were before the fast.  It was obvious to me that something was seriously wrong. 

 

That's when I got more serious about the underlying science to how the human body responds to being in the fasted state. 

 

Probably the most important work I read about were the studies by Dr. George Cahill's into the physiological changes that occur in starvation. I linked it below, and it is an excellent primer on the physiological stages that the human body goes through when deprived of exogenous nutrition.

 

His research which was summed up in the paper, "FUEL METABOLISM IN STARVATION" was a landmark study that fundamentally changed metabolic science and laid the groundwork for safe and effective modern-day fasting protocols.

 

It is essential reading if you are to really understanding what truly happens to the human body while in the fasted state, and some of those changes are complete unique to human beings, as opposed to animals in general.

 

The problem I have with most modern-day proponents of fasting is that many of them don't have a clue of the actual biochemical and physiological changes that occur when the human body is deprived of exogenous macronutrients...and that includes many practicing MD's!

 

As for clinical studies concerning the relationship of exercise to fasting, I have read many.  You can as well by googling.  I purposely don't like citing specific studies since you can't just look at one particular study to form YOUR OWN opinion. 

 

Usually when you want to effectively research a topic, you need to learn from many different sources (including the ones that you might feel a bias against)  and only then begin to form YOUR OWN opinion

 

Personally, I do not downplay any well-vetted sources.  I have watched many interviews and speeches, ands read articles from Goldhammer, Dr. Jason Fung, Dr. Stephen Phinney, and a host of other noted authorities that study prolonged fasting.  I even regularly watch YouTube videos by Berg and Ekberg, since all such sources often have some element of truth.  But, in the final analysis, it's up to you the individual to decide for yourself what is right and what is wrong.

 

Too many just a quick and simple answer to a very complex topic such as this and will usually only look to one source for that.

 

A good place to start for me was with Peter Attia's blog simply because he is both an MD and a triathlete, and he has done extensive study of both fasting and exercise physiology, and practices prolonged fasting protocols on a quarterly basis every year, and considers exercise while in the fasted state to be an integral part of the protocol. 

 

I know he has vested financial interests with a few companies that make products for fasting, but still I find him to be honest, and most of his information led me to other sources and I was able to develop my own valid and actionable course of action.

 

BUT...The real acid test for me is what actually works FOR ME.  All I can say is that ever since I incorporate exercise into my prolonged fasting sessions (7 day fasts, 4 times per year), they have all gone very smoothly with minimal lean body mass loss, good blood tests after the fast, no need for an exotic refeed plan, and high levels of energy during and after the fast.

 

Just a quick point:  In addition to exercise, the other big mistake I made on my initial fast was not considering the importance of electrolyte supplementation, specifically sodium, potassium, and magnesium.  Not only to it stave off headaches and the usual "keto flue" but it helps you sleep better and tolerate exercise better while in a fast.

 

I hope some of what I said you an find useful ????

 

 

I enjoyed reading your response and yes you remembered correctly the clinic in Germany. I may be wrong but I don't think they practice true water fasts. They are closer to what Dr Walter Longo suggests with his fasting mimicking diet - not exactly but similar it seems.

 

So let's focus on True North for the moment - they are at least partially a non profit organization maybe entirely I am not sure, but certainly not a big business  and they don't promote supplements etc. as many others due.

Link to the non profit foundation for their research:

https://www.truenorthhealthfoundation.org/about

The reason they are good to discuss is that they do have real research in this area as in published studies. High blood pressure and fasting is something they have done well with. Some sraticles on other areas such as limited success with cancer. They do not state that water fasting cures everything just the opposite.

 

I would say that Dr Goldhammer has a very good understanding of the subject and very important is the fact that he has extensive experience with tens of thousands of fasts which most other researchers do not have. Do you know of any current researchers with similar levels of experience with extended fasting as at True North?

 

As for Cahill he is very famous and wrote about a number of topics including what happens when the body is fasting but seeing as he died about ten years ago I wouldn't say his research is the latest... Also I did not read his articles and papers I read a summary as I am not an MD or scientist and I don't have a high level understanding of biochemistry or statistics - which I would say is essential.

 

Dr Jason Fung has education and experience on his side but I don't agree with all his conclusions - but he is very interesting and as you say there are elements of truth... As for Berg he seems to be way off target at times... Ekberg is better and seems more honest but still he is not always correct.

 

I have watched a number of Dr Attia's videos and he doesn't seem to have experience with long water fasts - but I may easily have missed this please let me know if you heard him say he does long water fasts. Note seven days is not a long fast... And I have limited trust with anyone who promotes products... He may a good man but money subtly changes what we think...

 

I have read a number of books (intended for normal non scientists) and watched many videos over the last few years and had discussions with scientists which I accidentally met. So my opinion is not professional at all but reasonable for a non professional as I do have some experience with medium length water only fasts - 16 and 17 days. 5 to 7 day fasts are not that long and not so difficult and do not produce much results - at least not for me. I have heard that around 21 days is when you really start to get results. I may go for 21 days as an experiment next time.

 

Carefully refeeding after long fasts is very, very important.

 

Electrolyte supplementation is an interesting concept and some find it very useful. I don't get headaches etc while doing long fasts so I don't use them. I am only tired.

 

So in summary I have not seen any serious research at all stating that exercise while doing a long water fast is a good idea. If you would be so kind as to let me know if you have seen any that would be great. One documentary that I saw on YouTube (not a serious work) did hint that in Russia they do exercise on a water fast...

 

Again thank you very much for your post!

[WaveHunter]

3 hours ago, TravelerEastWest said:

I enjoyed reading your response and yes you remembered correctly the clinic in Germany. I may be wrong but I don't think they practice true water fasts. They are closer to what Dr Walter Longo suggests with his fasting mimicking diet - not exactly but similar it seems.

 

So let's focus on True North for the moment - they are at least partially a non profit organization maybe entirely I am not sure, but certainly not a big business  and they don't promote supplements etc. as many others due.

Link to the non profit foundation for their research:

https://www.truenorthhealthfoundation.org/about

The reason they are good to discuss is that they do have real research in this area as in published studies. High blood pressure and fasting is something they have done well with. Some sraticles on other areas such as limited success with cancer. They do not state that water fasting cures everything just the opposite.

 

I would say that Dr Goldhammer has a very good understanding of the subject and very important is the fact that he has extensive experience with tens of thousands of fasts which most other researchers do not have. Do you know of any current researchers with similar levels of experience with extended fasting as at True North?

 

As for Cahill he is very famous and wrote about a number of topics including what happens when the body is fasting but seeing as he died about ten years ago I wouldn't say his research is the latest... Also I did not read his articles and papers I read a summary as I am not an MD or scientist and I don't have a high level understanding of biochemistry or statistics - which I would say is essential.

 

Dr Jason Fung has education and experience on his side but I don't agree with all his conclusions - but he is very interesting and as you say there are elements of truth... As for Berg he seems to be way off target at times... Ekberg is better and seems more honest but still he is not always correct.

 

I have watched a number of Dr Attia's videos and he doesn't seem to have experience with long water fasts - but I may easily have missed this please let me know if you heard him say he does long water fasts. Note seven days is not a long fast... And I have limited trust with anyone who promotes products... He may a good man but money subtly changes what we think...

 

I have read a number of books (intended for normal non scientists) and watched many videos over the last few years and had discussions with scientists which I accidentally met. So my opinion is not professional at all but reasonable for a non professional as I do have some experience with medium length water only fasts - 16 and 17 days. 5 to 7 day fasts are not that long and not so difficult and do not produce much results - at least not for me. I have heard that around 21 days is when you really start to get results. I may go for 21 days as an experiment next time.

 

Carefully refeeding after long fasts is very, very important.

 

Electrolyte supplementation is an interesting concept and some find it very useful. I don't get headaches etc while doing long fasts so I don't use them. I am only tired.

 

So in summary I have not seen any serious research at all stating that exercise while doing a long water fast is a good idea. If you would be so kind as to let me know if you have seen any that would be great. One documentary that I saw on YouTube (not a serious work) did hint that in Russia they do exercise on a water fast...

 

Again thank you very much for your post!

One thing I forgot to mention is that while exercise is good for an extended fast, it is not so good for the initial few days of starting a fast.  During this time, until ketogenesis ramps up, the body has no alternative but to catabolize proteins, and exercise will only cause more catabolizing to occur.  Not only that, but until there is adequate ketones bodies being released, the body will go into survival mode by decreasing the basal metabolic rate.  So, the first 3 days of a prolonged fast, I take a brisk 30 minute walk daily, but that's about it until day 3.

 

Regarding Goldhammer, I'm sure their clinic has helped many people but the research that comes from them is really as a sponsor of others' research, and that leads me to believe it may be a bit biased. What's more, the type of research papers that result are more related to clinical statistics as opposed to fundamental biochemistry and physiology.

 

The only reason I mention Cahill is because his research provided the foundation for truly understanding metabolic biochemistry and how the body reacts to food deprivations, and their findings are as true today as they were when first published.

 

You really do not need an academic understanding of biochemistry to understand Cahill's work, or any of the current research that's being done.  You may need to familiarize yourself with real basic biochemistry; things like the Krebs cycle, for instance, but YouTUbe is actually your friend with this since there are plenty of really good videos that you can actually trust, written by academics.

 

Actually one guy I religiously follow on YouTube is Nicolas Verhoeven.  He is PhD Candidate in Molecular Medicine and a researcher in a molecular biology lab that is researching cell biology related to autophagy, and really is on the cutting edge of this, which is intimately related to water fasting.

 

Though incredibly difficult to read for the lay person (me), here is his latest research paper, and I only link here so you can see this guy really knows what he's talking about:

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/350870898_Parkin-independent_mitophagy_via_Drp1-mediated_outer_membrane_severing_and_inner_membrane_ubiquitination

 

My point is that in order to understand the link between fasting and exercise, the answers are not in a research paper but in understanding the metabolic processes that underlie both fasting and exercise, and people like Attia and Verhoeven provide the link between very difficult to understand research and the truth.

 

I'm not saying their viewpoint is right or wrong, but what they have to say gives you a starting point that is firmly rooted in science so that you can further explore the topic on your own, and then have your very own viewpoint on it, instead of having to rely on others opinions.

 

Verhoeven's YouTube channel is called Physionics (https://www.youtube.com/c/Physionic/videos), and he discusses a wide variety of topics related to his research, and many focus specifically on water fasting, all strictly from a scientific perspective. He also describes complex physiological and biochemistry processes in a way that anyone can easily understand.

 

What's more, he provides very detailed "translation" of whatever scientific papers he happens to discuss in easy to understand language in his written "video notes" of his channel.  I've gotten a working knowledge of some very complex biochemical processes through his simplified (but not misleading) explanations.

 

He discusses water fasting as well as critiquing many f the proponents and that includes Goldhammer, Fung, including Valter Longo and his Fasting Mimicking Diet (which is very in-depth and fascinating).  He also critiques (in a fair impartial way) people like Berg, Fung, etc... .

 

He is literally a gold-mine of incredibly reliable and accurate information!

 

Regarding refeeding, all the guidelines [put out by health gurus) is overkill IMO.  I've used a simple protocol to end a fast and it has never caused me issues. 

 

Throughout the fast I take psyllium daily just to keep something running through my digestive tract (and that will not interfere with ketosis or autophagy), and water water mixed with electrolytes (Sodium, potassium, and magnesium). 

 

The electrolytes are not just to stave off headaches and "keto flue", but because those three electrolytes are seriously depleted in in a 72 hour fast.  You might not feel any negative repercussions during your fast, but you could in a serious way afterwards. (Verhoeven did an excellent video on this on his YouTube channel BTW)

 

On a 7 day fast, I do a 3 day refeed.  I continue with the psyllium, and on Day one of the refeed I have one meal only, consisting only of soup (I like Minestrone best), and consume it very slowly over a one hour period, along with natural vegetable juices (not processed or with added sugar)

 

On Day 2, the same thing, but two meals of soup plus a simple salad.  On Day 3, I just go back to OMAD (one meal a day), keeping it light and low in carbs, and difficult to digest proteins.  By day 4, I'm pretty much back to eating the way I normally would, and just being careful not to binge.

 

The whole idea is simply to avoid shocking your metabolic system which is now fat-centric, no longer carb-centric, and it is really as simple as that.  Bone broth and all the other things that health guru's suggest are fine if that's your thing, but they are certainly not necessary.  All that's necessary is good common sense IMO.

 

Regarding the duration of a water fast, I never go beyond 7 days.  I did once as a bio-hack but really, form everything I have read, there is no point in going beyond 7 days.  I only go for 7 days because of the effect it may have on autophagy, and even possible stem cells, but those are still very gray areas to me (which again is why I really like Verhoeven's videos since his research is specifically to do with these things.

 

As for research I can point you to, again I have to say that I can not think of any specific papers I can suggest that support the link between exercise and fasting except the basic biochemistry concepts that come into play with the two.  Attia and Verhoeven are my two "go-to" starting points I can suggest though.

Edited August 22, 2022 by WaveHunter

[TravelerEastWest]

2 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

One thing I forgot to mention is that while exercise is good for an extended fast, it is not so good for the initial few days of starting a fast.  During this time, until ketogenesis ramps up, the body has no alternative but to catabolize proteins, and exercise will only cause more catabolizing to occur.  Not only that, but until there is adequate ketones bodies being released, the body will go into survival mode by decreasing the basal metabolic rate.  So, the first 3 days of a prolonged fast, I take a brisk 30 minute walk daily, but that's about it until day 3.

 

Regarding Goldhammer, I'm sure their clinic has helped many people but the research that comes from them is really as a sponsor of others' research, and that leads me to believe it may be a bit biased. What's more, the type of research papers that result are more related to clinical statistics as opposed to fundamental biochemistry and physiology.

 

The only reason I mention Cahill is because his research provided the foundation for truly understanding metabolic biochemistry and how the body reacts to food deprivations, and their findings are as true today as they were when first published.

 

You really do not need an academic understanding of biochemistry to understand Cahill's work, or any of the current research that's being done.  You may need to familiarize yourself with real basic biochemistry; things like the Krebs cycle, for instance, but YouTUbe is actually your friend with this since there are plenty of really good videos that you can actually trust, written by academics.

 

Actually one guy I religiously follow on YouTube is Nicolas Verhoeven.  He is PhD Candidate in Molecular Medicine and a researcher in a molecular biology lab that is researching cell biology related to autophagy, and really is on the cutting edge of this, which is intimately related to water fasting.

 

Though incredibly difficult to read for the lay person (me), here is his latest research paper, and I only link here so you can see this guy really knows what he's talking about:

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/350870898_Parkin-independent_mitophagy_via_Drp1-mediated_outer_membrane_severing_and_inner_membrane_ubiquitination

 

My point is that in order to understand the link between fasting and exercise, the answers are not in a research paper but in understanding the metabolic processes that underlie both fasting and exercise, and people like Attia and Verhoeven provide the link between very difficult to understand research and the truth.

 

I'm not saying their viewpoint is right or wrong, but what they have to say gives you a starting point that is firmly rooted in science so that you can further explore the topic on your own, and then have your very own viewpoint on it, instead of having to rely on others opinions.

 

Verhoeven's YouTube channel is called Physionics (https://www.youtube.com/c/Physionic/videos), and he discusses a wide variety of topics related to his research, and many focus specifically on water fasting, all strictly from a scientific perspective. He also describes complex physiological and biochemistry processes in a way that anyone can easily understand.

 

What's more, he provides very detailed "translation" of whatever scientific papers he happens to discuss in easy to understand language in his written "video notes" of his channel.  I've gotten a working knowledge of some very complex biochemical processes through his simplified (but not misleading) explanations.

 

2 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

 

He discusses water fasting as well as critiquing many f the proponents and that includes Goldhammer, Fung, including Valter Longo and his Fasting Mimicking Diet (which is very in-depth and fascinating).  He also critiques (in a fair impartial way) people like Berg, Fung, etc... .

 

He is literally a gold-mine of incredibly reliable and accurate information!

 

Regarding refeeding, all the guidelines [put out by health gurus) is overkill IMO.  I've used a simple protocol to end a fast and it has never caused me issues. 

 

Throughout the fast I take psyllium daily just to keep something running through my digestive tract (and that will not interfere with ketosis or autophagy), and water water mixed with electrolytes (Sodium, potassium, and magnesium). 

 

The electrolytes are not just to stave off headaches and "keto flue", but because those three electrolytes are seriously depleted in in a 72 hour fast.  You might not feel any negative repercussions during your fast, but you could in a serious way afterwards. (Verhoeven did an excellent video on this on his YouTube channel BTW)

 

On a 7 day fast, I do a 3 day refeed.  I continue with the psyllium, and on Day one of the refeed I have one meal only, consisting only of soup (I like Minestrone best), and consume it very slowly over a one hour period, along with natural vegetable juices (not processed or with added sugar)

 

On Day 2, the same thing, but two meals of soup plus a simple salad.  On Day 3, I just go back to OMAD (one meal a day), keeping it light and low in carbs, and difficult to digest proteins.  By day 4, I'm pretty much back to eating the way I normally would, and just being careful not to binge.

 

The whole idea is simply to avoid shocking your metabolic system which is now fat-centric, no longer carb-centric, and it is really as simple as that.  Bone broth and all the other things that health guru's suggest are fine if that's your thing, but they are certainly not necessary.  All that's necessary is good common sense IMO.

 

Regarding the duration of a water fast, I never go beyond 7 days.  I did once as a bio-hack but really, form everything I have read, there is no point in going beyond 7 days.  I only go for 7 days because of the effect it may have on autophagy, and even possible stem cells, but those are still very gray areas to me (which again is why I really like Verhoeven's videos since his research is specifically to do with these things.

 

As for research I can point you to, again I have to say that I can not think of any specific papers I can suggest that support the link between exercise and fasting except the basic biochemistry concepts that come into play with the two.  Attia and Verhoeven are my two "go-to" starting points I can suggest though.

Again thank you for your thoughtful post and I respect your thoughts and observations!

 

But I don't see quite what you do:

1) As you mention in the end of your post you have not read direct studies or heard of them by experienced researchers that support the idea that exercise while doing an extended fast is a good idea. This matches my research.

 

2) I have watched a number of Verhoeven's videos and he does have a calm voice and some nice graphics and interesting information but he is not in the league of experienced and well educated researchers - also I don't like his attitude at times... (but that is a subjective comment). He is basically an exercise trainer who is now a Phd student - he has not graduated nor does he run his own research studies - so he is not authority to be relied on.

 

3) We have a different view of what an extended fast is - seven days is a fairly short fast... so your actual experience is quite limited (mine is also fairly limited I don't count 15 or 16 days as a long fast - normally 21 days is where you start to hear about great results)

 

4) "understanding the metabolic processes that underlie both fasting and exercise, and people like Attia and Verhoeven provide the link between very difficult to understand research and the truth..." as mentioned above Verhoeven is not qualified to rely on as a resource at least not in my opinion and I am not a scientist or MD so my opinion is not that valuable... But I have those I know with the education and experience to know what they are talking about who agree with my thought about who is qualified.

"Regarding Goldhammer, I'm sure their clinic has helped many people but the research that comes from them is really as a sponsor of others' research, and that leads me to believe it may be a bit biased. What's more, the type of research papers that result are more related to clinical statistics as opposed to fundamental biochemistry and physiology."

 

I was not aware that they are really a sponsor of other's research I thought they are doing  research both on their own and in collaboration with others. Can you show proof of your comment please? To some extent everyone is biased which is why they are publishing articles so that others can comment on their results. Not sure why clinical statistics of real life results would not be really good information as opposed to only theory? Can you explain why you say that please?

 

5) Dr Attia is clearly very smart and very interesting and a man who is not afraid to reverse his option I respect him. But I have not heard him comment in his videos about the advantage of long fasts and exercising so unless I missed something - always very possible - lets assume he doesn't agree with extended fasting and exercise as I don't want to speak for him.

 

6) Dr Cahill clearly did some very important research and is indeed someone to respect. I have read his explanation of what happens to the body during the fasting process and again I may have missed it but I don't see anywhere  - where he suggests extended fasts should include exercising. If I missed this please let me know.

 

7) "instead of having to rely on others opinions." Here we will have to agree to disagree I have studied statistics in graduate school but only up to a masters degree not a Phd and I clearly don't have the knowledge or experience to judge the quality of scientific research papers. You must be much smarter than I am and I accept that (note not being sarcastic). A month ago I was talking on the phone with William a retired doctor about a conference he had gone to with various research appears being presented. One paper in particular he remembered as the static were simply wrong - my point being statistics are very difficult to understand even with a great deal of education and experience...

 

???? "those three electrolytes are seriously depleted in in a 72 hour fast." I have not heard that this is typically a problem with short three day fasts - any information to back that up? During long water only fasts normally it is not a problem but it could be. which is why experienced researchers and doctors such as Dr Longo and Dr Goldhammer  and others always suggest Doctor supervised long fasts. i am in Thailand so i can't go easily to somewhere like True North where they supervise your fast. So instead I read very carefully and slowly increase my fast lengths and if I have any problems I will stop.

 

9) Sounds like you have a good refeeding program. For a longer fast - two weeks or longer I would probably follow the advice of having light fruit to break your fast.

 

Thanks again for your thoughtful response - we agree in many things - but not everything - which is OK...

Edited August 22, 2022 by TravelerEastWest

[WaveHunter]

12 hours ago, TravelerEastWest said:

7) "instead of having to rely on others opinions." Here we will have to agree to disagree I have studied statistics in graduate school but only up to a masters degree not a Phd and I clearly don't have the knowledge or experience to judge the quality of scientific research papers. You must be much smarter than I am and I accept that (note not being sarcastic). A month ago I was talking on the phone with William a retired doctor about a conference he had gone to with various research appears being presented. One paper in particular he remembered as the static were simply wrong - my point being statistics are very difficult to understand even with a great deal of education and experience...

 

???? "those three electrolytes are seriously depleted in in a 72 hour fast." I have not heard that this is typically a problem with short three day fasts - any information to back that up? During long water only fasts normally it is not a problem but it could be. which is why experienced researchers and doctors such as Dr Longo and Dr Goldhammer  and others always suggest Doctor supervised long fasts. i am in Thailand so i can't go easily to somewhere like True North where they supervise your fast. So instead I read very carefully and slowly increase my fast lengths and if I have any problems I will stop.

 

9) Sounds like you have a good refeeding program. For a longer fast - two weeks or longer I would probably follow the advice of having light fruit to break your fast.

 

Thanks again for your thoughtful response - we agree in many things - but not everything - which is OK...

My point is actually very simple.  There are no studies currently that empirically confirm that exercising while fasting is beneficial.  There are no studies that empirically confirm that being sedentary while fasting is beneficial.  Much about fasting, autophagy, and metabolic sciences in general are still largely unexplored territory with mostly unproven concepts.  Therefore, as a lay person interested in practising optimal health, we have several options to pick from:

1. Take no action and wait for science to confirm the truth
2. Listen to proponents of one side vs the other side, and take action based on which one you believe in more.
3. Listen to proponents of BOTH sides, and then use their views to go on and do your own research of all the well-vetted studies. and then, after digesting as much information as you need, do a bio-hack on yourself, and then use the result of that to decide which view is the one to believe in

I prefer #3.  This is clearly the most difficult track to take.  It's very hard to try and stay unbiased as you look at both sides of the question, and it takes a lot of time and effort, but I prefer it to the other two.  

 

It's like if you have ever watched a trial proceedings.  You have the prosecutor laying out his/her version of what happened, and his presentation is very compelling.  But then you hear the Defence's version of what happened and it is also compelling.  You, as the jury, then have to decide which version YOU believe is correct.  You may choose wisely, or you may make a mistake, but in the final analysis, you MUST make a decision that you feel best defines the truth.

 

You can look at any / all scientific studies in the field of metabolic science and find things you believe are correct and things you disagree with,  No single study can prove or disprove a concept when that concept has yet to be proven by peer review, so as a lay person who wants to optimize their health by fasting, you have to look at all the available and make that decision for yourself.

 

That's really all that I am saying. I have a whole library of notebooks I've amassed over the twenty years, going back to when I first became curious about the metabolic sciences.  I have explored and bio-hacked so many different concepts, I can't even keep track...Whole food, Veganism, Carnevor, Low Carb, OMAD, Water Fasting, Autophagy.  Here's an example of just one of my Fasting / Keto notebooks for 2021:

 

 

What I'm trying to say is that you really have to be your very own researcher when it comes to topics such as fasting and exercise. 

 

Nobody can tell you definitely whether dieting and exercise go together.  You have to piece it together all on your own.  So, when I say that I believe that exercise is important (even vital) for a successful fast, it is only MY opinion because almost all of the well vetted scientific research I've seen supports that view, even though there is no single study that I know of that makes that makes such a bold claim.

 

More importantly, I believe it because it has worked well for me in practice, where a sedentary approach to fasting was a disaster.

 

I mean, I guess it all depends on what you expect from a Fast.  The majority of people's only goal is to drop some excess weight.  To me, that is a dumb idea.

 

"Water fasting" is just a nasty little catch-phrase used by YouTube gurus.  In reality it should not be considered a weight-loss diet.  The real goal of fasting should be to induce accelerated autophagy.

 

Autophagy goes on in the human body 24/7 but when a person has a history of over-consuming carbs and heavily processed foods, the regular autophagic response can not keep up with the intra-cellular damage that occurs from poor nutrition.  Intracellular proteins become irreparably damaged and began to accumulate.

 

The goal of fast should very simply be to accelerate the autophagic response (which Ohsumi proved in his Nobel prize winning research).  He proved that any type of metabolic stressors such as deprivation of food, or increased physical stress (i.e.: exercise) have a direct effect on the autophagic response.

 

So, when you fast, and when you exercise, you increase this autophagic response.  The big picture of fasting is simply this:  Fasting and exercise induce accelerated autophagy, which is able to sequester those damaged intracellular proteins caused in part by poor nutrition, and pass them outside the cell membrane so that they can be broken down to amino acids.

 

Then, when fasting ends and you resume eating, new intracellular proteins can replace the old, damaged ones, allowing the body to return to a more homeostatic state.

 

That's it in a nutshell IMHO.  The goal with a fst is to induce accelerated autophagy and nothing more.  When the human body is in an optimal homeostatic state, there no need to go on a diet to lose weight.  The body will take care of that all on its' own provided sound nutrition is practiced and one does not resume poor nutritional habits after the fast.

 

Autophagy is now coming to the forefront of many prominent researchers such as Dr. Valter Longo, and Verhoeven (who I mentioned yesterday, and who's research work is laser focused specifically on autophagy).   And of course there is Dr. Yoshinori Ohsumi's ongoing work, for which he was awarded the Nobel prize in 2016.

 

Anyway, as usual, I have gotten carried away in my writing.  Sorry for being so verbose, but I hope it has some meaning for you ????

 

 

 

 

[TravelerEastWest]

47 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

My point is actually very simple.  There are no studies currently that empirically confirm that exercising while fasting is beneficial.  There are no studies that empirically confirm that being sedentary while fasting is beneficial.  Much about fasting, autophagy, and metabolic sciences in general are still largely unexplored territory with mostly unproven concepts.  Therefore, as a lay person interested in practising optimal health, we have several options to pick from:

1. Take no action and wait for science to confirm the truth
2. Listen to proponents of one side vs the other side, and take action based on which one you believe in more.
3. Listen to proponents of BOTH sides, and then use their views to go on and do your own research of all the well-vetted studies. and then, after digesting as much information as you need, do a bio-hack on yourself, and then use the result of that to decide which view is the one to believe in

I prefer #3.  This is clearly the most difficult track to take.  It's very hard to try and stay unbiased as you look at both sides of the question, and it takes a lot of time and effort, but I prefer it to the other two.  

 

It's like if you have ever watched a trial proceedings.  You have the prosecutor laying out his/her version of what happened, and his presentation is very compelling.  But then you hear the Defence's version of what happened and it is also compelling.  You, as the jury, then have to decide which version YOU believe is correct.  You may choose wisely, or you may make a mistake, but in the final analysis, you MUST make a decision that you feel best defines the truth.

 

You can look at any / all scientific studies in the field of metabolic science and find things you believe are correct and things you disagree with,  No single study can prove or disprove a concept when that concept has yet to be proven by peer review, so as a lay person who wants to optimize their health by fasting, you have to look at all the available and make that decision for yourself.

 

That's really all that I am saying. I have a whole library of notebooks I've amassed over the twenty years, going back to when I first became curious about the metabolic sciences.  I have explored and bio-hacked so many different concepts, I can't even keep track...Whole food, Veganism, Carnevor, Low Carb, OMAD, Water Fasting, Autophagy.  Here's an example of just one of my Fasting / Keto notebooks for 2021:

 

 

What I'm trying to say is that you really have to be your very own researcher when it comes to topics such as fasting and exercise. 

 

Nobody can tell you definitely whether dieting and exercise go together.  You have to piece it together all on your own.  So, when I say that I believe that exercise is important (even vital) for a successful fast, it is only MY opinion because almost all of the well vetted scientific research I've seen supports that view, even though there is no single study that I know of that makes that makes such a bold claim.

 

More importantly, I believe it because it has worked well for me in practice, where a sedentary approach to fasting was a disaster.

 

I mean, I guess it all depends on what you expect from a Fast.  The majority of people's only goal is to drop some excess weight.  To me, that is a dumb idea.

 

"Water fasting" is just a nasty little catch-phrase used by YouTube gurus.  In reality it should not be considered a weight-loss diet.  The real goal of fasting should be to induce accelerated autophagy.

 

Autophagy goes on in the human body 24/7 but when a person has a history of over-consuming carbs and heavily processed foods, the regular autophagic response can not keep up with the intra-cellular damage that occurs from poor nutrition.  Intracellular proteins become irreparably damaged and began to accumulate.

 

The goal of fast should very simply be to accelerate the autophagic response (which Ohsumi proved in his Nobel prize winning research).  He proved that any type of metabolic stressors such as deprivation of food, or increased physical stress (i.e.: exercise) have a direct effect on the autophagic response.

 

So, when you fast, and when you exercise, you increase this autophagic response.  The big picture of fasting is simply this:  Fasting and exercise induce accelerated autophagy, which is able to sequester those damaged intracellular proteins caused in part by poor nutrition, and pass them outside the cell membrane so that they can be broken down to amino acids.

 

Then, when fasting ends and you resume eating, new intracellular proteins can replace the old, damaged ones, allowing the body to return to a more homeostatic state.

 

That's it in a nutshell IMHO.  The goal with a fst is to induce accelerated autophagy and nothing more.  When the human body is in an optimal homeostatic state, there no need to go on a diet to lose weight.  The body will take care of that all on its' own provided sound nutrition is practiced and one does not resume poor nutritional habits after the fast.

 

Autophagy is now coming to the forefront of many prominent researchers such as Dr. Valter Longo, and Verhoeven (who I mentioned yesterday, and who's research work is laser focused specifically on autophagy).   And of course there is Dr. Yoshinori Ohsumi's ongoing work, for which he was awarded the Nobel prize in 2016.

 

Anyway, as usual, I have gotten carried away in my writing.  Sorry for being so verbose, but I hope it has some meaning for you ????

 

 

 

 

"Anyway, as usual, I have gotten carried away in my writing.  Sorry for being so verbose, but I hope it has some meaning for you ????"

 

I like your posts and was looking forward to reading this one!

 

I agree with perhaps 80% of what you write.

 

"Listen to proponents of one side vs the other side, and take action based on which one you believe in more.'

I follow your second choice as I don't feel it is normally possible (99%+ of the time) to read and understand actual research unless you are trained in the field. The level of statistics that you need to understand is very high. As is the biochemistry.

 

Verhoeven - unless I am mixing him up with someone else has little to no credentials and is not a good source for me He is not an MD or Phd and is only a student. The article link that you posted is interesting but he does not appear to be the main researcher. 

 

Dr Goldhammer and his team seem to be partially or mostly non profit and are not focused on sponsoring others. His team also has extensive real world experience in the field literally thousands of medically supervised long water fasts over many years and in his research exercise is not included as a safety measure. I trust that more likely than not he is correct. So far you have shown zero evidence to contradict this position, and I am very open to hearing about a doctor or researcher with equivalent experience who has had good measured results with extended water fasts and exercise...

 

When you say exercise helps with autophagy I agree with you - but doing an extended water fast and exercise together have not been shown to be something good (at least I have not heard about it and you have not posted any facts to support this idea - you do not have extensive experience with extended water fasts (not intending to be rude but going with what you wrote:

("More importantly, I believe it because it has worked well for me in practice, where a sedentary approach to fasting was a disaster.")

 

I am not sure how you can say that with your limited experience with extended water fasting exercise while doing an extended water fast it is a good idea. Perhaps a gentle walk or light yoga might be OK with an extended water fast - but maybe not.

 

"it is only MY opinion because almost all of the well vetted scientific research I've seen supports that view, "

Not sure what you mean so far as you have not posted any research showing that extended water fasts and exercise are a good idea.

 

"There are no studies that empirically confirm that being sedentary while fasting is beneficial."

 

Dr Goldhammer has written about his research and he uses a Dexa scanner to show visceral fat going away and very little muscle being used during long fasts with no exercise. This to me is very good evidence supporting the no exercise with extended water fasting theory. Now if many other doctors could do the same Dexa scans after  an extended water fast this would be much better of course, but for now it seems taht more likely than not no exercise with extended water fasts is best for your health. Remember I am talking about long water fasts not short ones... 

 

Remember Dr Goldhammer is doing extended water fasts up to around 40 days which is very, very different from 7 to 10 day water fasts...

 

Thank you for sharing an example of your notebooks - you clearly are well organized - my notes are very unorganized as in using scarps of paper and piling them up... not a good system at all!

[WaveHunter]

After writing my last reply, I just wanted to briefly go through your post, point by point

 

16 hours ago, TravelerEastWest said:

 

Again thank you for your thoughtful post and I respect your thoughts and observations!

 

But I don't see quite what you do:

1) As you mention in the end of your post you have not read direct studies or heard of them by experienced researchers that support the idea that exercise while doing an extended fast is a good idea. This matches my research.

Truth is, I have read countless research papers.  It's true none of them have given the "gold seal of approval " to exercising in a fasted state" but many of them support the notion with sound scientific data.  It is only when these studies are viewed as a whole, did I form the opinion that there was enough science-based information for me to believe in it, and worthy of doing a bio-hack to prove it to myself, which I have done, and found that is was beneficial to me, where the sedantary approach was a disaster for me.

 

16 hours ago, TravelerEastWest said:

2) I have watched a number of Verhoeven's videos and he does have a calm voice and some nice graphics and interesting information but he is not in the league of experienced and well educated researchers - also I don't like his attitude at times... (but that is a subjective comment). He is basically an exercise trainer who is now a Phd student - he has not graduated nor does he run his own research studies - so he is not authority to be relied on.

I disagree with you here completely about Verhoeven's knowledge or veracity as a researcher. Verhoeven's status as a PHD candidate and an active and published researcher in one of the cutting edge cellular biology labs in the US that actually is focused on autophagic response, make him imminently qualified on topics such as the underlying science of water fasting.

 

Many of the "respected" authorities you regularly come across on YouTube, like Goldhammer for instance, are not truly research scientists, working full-time in labs, and they are often far-removed from cutting edge academic research.

 

16 hours ago, TravelerEastWest said:

3) We have a different view of what an extended fast is - seven days is a fairly short fast... so your actual experience is quite limited (mine is also fairly limited I don't count 15 or 16 days as a long fast - normally 21 days is where you start to hear about great results)

The duration of a water fast all depends on what your goals are.  Most people only fast to lose weight, which I think is incredibly dumb and completely off the mark of what an extended fast can accomplish for optimal health.

 

Water fasting is all about "resetting" the homeostatic state of the human body by accelerating the autophagic response, and nothing else.  I'm not talking about the silly notion of ridding the body of environmental toxins or any of that other nonsense that health gurus love to talk about.

 

We are in the midst of an obesity and Diabetes type II epidemic today, primarily caused by over-consumption of heavily processed foods, most of which are carbohydrates.

 

Excess body fat should not be the concern since that is only about vanity, and it is only a symptom of a much bigger problem.

 

The real issue is that such poor nutrition can cause irreparable damage to the intracellular proteins that allow our bodies to function optimally.

 

"Dieting" to lower excess body only amounts to putting a band-aid on an infected wound.  If the underlying issues are not resolved, the problem will not be solved.  The underlying issue is metabolic, not caloric, so the concept of dieting to lose weight is simply flawed.

 

Since there is now incontrovertible proof that fasting (along with other metabolic stressors such as exercise) causes an accelerated autophagic response, this accelerated response is really the major health goal of doing an extended fast.

 

If you are seeking a source of research to serve as proof of this, I guess the Nobel prize winning research of Yoshinori Ohsumi is a good place to start.  I fyu are not familiar with hsi work, here's a starting point:

https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/medicine/2016/press-release/

 

To sum up, The duration of a fast really has to do with the accelerated autophagic response, and nothing else.  Nobody can really say what the optimal duration of a fast should be.

 

For me, I limit extended fasts to no more than 7 days.  There are, after all, negative consequences of as prolonged fast.  For instance, just as much as autophagy can reset dysfunctional proteins can replacing them, it can also do the same thing with cancerous cells, so it's not wise to look at only the positive aspects of fasting.

 

16 hours ago, TravelerEastWest said:

4) "understanding the metabolic processes that underlie both fasting and exercise, and people like Attia and Verhoeven provide the link between very difficult to understand research and the truth..." as mentioned above Verhoeven is not qualified to rely on as a resource at least not in my opinion and I am not a scientist or MD so my opinion is not that valuable... But I have those I know with the education and experience to know what they are talking about who agree with my thought about who is qualified.

"Regarding Goldhammer, I'm sure their clinic has helped many people but the research that comes from them is really as a sponsor of others' research, and that leads me to believe it may be a bit biased. What's more, the type of research papers that result are more related to clinical statistics as opposed to fundamental biochemistry and physiology."

 

I was not aware that they are really a sponsor of other's research I thought they are doing  research both on their own and in collaboration with others. Can you show proof of your comment please? To some extent everyone is biased which is why they are publishing articles so that others can comment on their results. Not sure why clinical statistics of real life results would not be really good information as opposed to only theory? Can you explain why you say that please?

I don't mean to come down on True North or Goldhammer, but quite frankly, he is a chiropractor (just like Dr, Berg).  I don't consider his credential to be suitable for me to consider him an authority on the metabolic sciences.

 

Like berg, he is a smart businessman who's very good at promoting himself and his clinic as far more than what they really are.

 

They are certainly not involved in any legitimate science-based research.  The only research papers I've ever seen published by them are statistics-based research, not actual science-based lab studies, and of the papers I saw, none of them seemed to be peer-reviewed in trusted publications like Lancet, or the New England Journal of Medicine.

 

I'm sure they do well for their clients otherwise they would not be in business as long as they have been...but basically they are a for-profit business and nothing more...in my humble opinion, of course.

 

16 hours ago, TravelerEastWest said:

5) Dr Attia is clearly very smart and very interesting and a man who is not afraid to reverse his option I respect him. But I have not heard him comment in his videos about the advantage of long fasts and exercising so unless I missed something - always very possible - lets assume he doesn't agree with extended fasting and exercise as I don't want to speak for him.

Again, respected authority is going to endorse and unproven concept, but look at his personal fasting protocol, and you'll see that exercise is a very real part of it. 

16 hours ago, TravelerEastWest said:

6) Dr Cahill clearly did some very important research and is indeed someone to respect. I have read his explanation of what happens to the body during the fasting process and again I may have missed it but I don't see anywhere  - where he suggests extended fasts should include exercising. If I missed this please let me know.

You did not miss anything.  I mention Cahill because he is like that father of the modern-day metabolic sciences being what they are today.  Before him, the therapeutic concept of water fasting was not taken seriously in the scientific community.

 

For his day, his work was groundbreaking, and really served as a foundation for all the notable researchers who followed.

16 hours ago, TravelerEastWest said:

7) "instead of having to rely on others opinions." Here we will have to agree to disagree I have studied statistics in graduate school but only up to a masters degree not a Phd and I clearly don't have the knowledge or experience to judge the quality of scientific research papers. You must be much smarter than I am and I accept that (note not being sarcastic). A month ago I was talking on the phone with William a retired doctor about a conference he had gone to with various research appears being presented. One paper in particular he remembered as the static were simply wrong - my point being statistics are very difficult to understand even with a great deal of education and experience...

Again, what I was trying to say is you don't need to understand all the science-based details of a scientific paper to gain insight from it.  Sometimes the concluding statement is simply enough because one research report is just a stepping stone to another one.

 

For me, it's all about putting together notable bits and pieces from many different papers, and then over time, just getting a feel for what the larger truth may be.

 

I just think it's a better approach to seeking the truth, than just to make an assumption of what the truth is from only one source or one person..

16 hours ago, TravelerEastWest said:

 

???? "those three electrolytes are seriously depleted in in a 72 hour fast." I have not heard that this is typically a problem with short three day fasts - any information to back that up? During long water only fasts normally it is not a problem but it could be. which is why experienced researchers and doctors such as Dr Longo and Dr Goldhammer  and others always suggest Doctor supervised long fasts. i am in Thailand so i can't go easily to somewhere like True North where they supervise your fast. So instead I read very carefully and slowly increase my fast lengths and if I have any problems I will stop.

For a short term (72 hour) fast, I agree that electrolyte supplementation is not a huge deal for most people, but after that, imbalances occur, and it's simply better to be safe than sorry since the repercussions of an imbalance can be a very serious thing for some.

 

I take all of this stuff real seriously, but at the same time, I strongly disagree that prolonged fasts should only be done under the direct supervision of a MD, unless there might be a metabolically related pre-condition.

 

For every prolonged fast I undertake, I do a pre-fast blood test, and then a post-fast blood test, and have my doctor review them for me.  That's the extent of the MD supervision of my fasts, and it has worked fine for me, and the reason for that (I think) is that I'm real careful about staying properly hydrated and supplement with electrolytes, and also psyllium (to keep the digestive tract active) , no thing more, no fancy fasting enhancers, no himalayan sea salt, no apple cider vinegar LOL (I'm think of Dr. Berg nonsensical fasting advice here...hahahaha).

 

Regarding fast duration, like I said before, I think you should base it more on autophagy than anything, and to my way of thinking, anything longer than 7 days might be pushing things just too far.

 

Again, prolonged fasting is a real frontier and science-based facts are a very gray area.  I just think it's important to be as well informed as you can be from well-vetted and diversified sources, and then take an adventurous plunge in the form of a bio-hack to find out for yourself ????

 

16 hours ago, TravelerEastWest said:

9) Sounds like you have a good refeeding program. For a longer fast - two weeks or longer I would probably follow the advice of having light fruit to break your fast.

 

Thanks again for your thoughtful response - we agree in many things - but not everything - which is OK...

My only input with #9 is what I already said, and that is to consider what your actual goal is with a fast, and then decide how long it should really take to achieve it.  I mean, fasting, not matter how often you've done it before, is a major shock to your system, a definite inconvenience, and nerv fun or rewarding while you're doing it, so my mindset is "how short can my fast be", not how long.

Edited August 23, 2022 by WaveHunter

[TravelerEastWest]

My goals for fasting are varied but improved insulin resistance is probably the most important as I have had type 2 diabetes for a very long time.

 

I went from being very sick with mega doses of insulin daily to only being moderately sick with much lower doses of insulin after doing 15 and 16 day fasts without electrolytes or other supplements. But it is difficult to say exactly what role extended water fasting played in my improvement as I also have been doing daily walks, weights and eating well. although I did see quick results after extended fasts. I think I will try a longer fast with the long shot of pancreas improvement.

 

Again I am a N of 1 so nothing to be relied on but maybe something o add to the range of ideas that you rely on?

 

I also like developing will power to not be attached to food but that is a bit off our topic.

 

Losing visceral fat is also a good result of extended fasting.

 

I still agree with about 80% of what you have written which is pretty good I think - smiling.

 

We will have to agree to disagree on about 20% of what you say.

 

I found someone on YouTube Dr Gil Carvalho who is well qualified (MD and Phd) calm and seems to be honest not sure, but you might like him and perhaps have already watched some of his videos..

 

https://www.youtube.com/hashtag/nutritionmadesimple

 

Finally - I love exercise and really hope that in the future it is proven that exercise and extended fasting go together well thank you for all your ideas - and I am still in awe of your notebooks! You are very organized!

[TravelerEastWest]

An interview with Dr Carvalho where talks about how to look at studies and think about health.

 

He seems calm, smart, trained in research and a good communicator - he does real research at USC.

 

https://theproof.com/making-sense-of-nutrition-with-gil-carvalho-md/

[TravelerEastWest]

"I don't mean to come down on True North or Goldhammer, but quite frankly, he is a chiropractor (just like Dr, Berg).  I don't consider his credential to be suitable for me to consider him an authority on the metabolic sciences."

 

Actually I think you may be thinking about someone else as Dr Goldhammer is both a chiropractor and an Osteopath; not just a chiropractor like Dr Berg - who from what I understand doesn't even have a current license as chiropractor. So very different. Osteopath go through almost the same training as MDs and can prescribe medicine - so again nothing even similar to Dr Berg. And Dr Goldhammer is not running a supplement business only a medical clinic like many doctors.

 

Also Dr Goldhammer as I have mentioned has lots of real world experience in the field of extended water fasting more than most doctors of any type and he is very active in advancing the science in the field through clinical work - lab work is something different and not his focus. He is very active in his nonprofit foundation and they are building a collection of peer reviewed articles - again nothing similar to Dr Berg.

 

I write the above as comparing him to Berg is shall we politely say not very kind...

 

Also I have read many of your suggestions in the past and to date I have found nothing more on point to the issue of exercise and extended fasting than Dr Goldhammers's work.

 

You seem very sincere and open minded so you may want to spend some more time reading his articles and watching his videos - just a thought.... feel free to ignore my suggestion if you have made up your mind...

[WaveHunter]

On 8/23/2022 at 2:39 PM, TravelerEastWest said:

My goals for fasting are varied but improved insulin resistance is probably the most important as I have had type 2 diabetes for a very long time.

 

I went from being very sick with mega doses of insulin daily to only being moderately sick with much lower doses of insulin after doing 15 and 16 day fasts without electrolytes or other supplements. But it is difficult to say exactly what role extended water fasting played in my improvement as I also have been doing daily walks, weights and eating well. although I did see quick results after extended fasts. I think I will try a longer fast with the long shot of pancreas improvement.

 

Again I am a N of 1 so nothing to be relied on but maybe something o add to the range of ideas that you rely on?

 

I also like developing will power to not be attached to food but that is a bit off our topic.

 

Losing visceral fat is also a good result of extended fasting.

 

I still agree with about 80% of what you have written which is pretty good I think - smiling.

 

We will have to agree to disagree on about 20% of what you say.

 

I found someone on YouTube Dr Gil Carvalho who is well qualified (MD and Phd) calm and seems to be honest not sure, but you might like him and perhaps have already watched some of his videos..

 

https://www.youtube.com/hashtag/nutritionmadesimple

 

Finally - I love exercise and really hope that in the future it is proven that exercise and extended fasting go together well thank you for all your ideas - and I am still in awe of your notebooks! You are very organized!

Nice post.  It's always going to happen that people will have varying opinions since everybody is different and what works well for one may not work so well for another.  That's why I think the best approach is to take in as much raw information as you can from very well vetted sources BUT then to decide for yourself what YOU feel is the proper course action for YOURSELF, rather than to adopt someone else's opinion.

[TravelerEastWest]

7 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

Nice post.  It's always going to happen that people will have varying opinions since everybody is different and what works well for one may not work so well for another.  That's why I think the best approach is to take in as much raw information as you can from very well vetted sources BUT then to decide for yourself what YOU feel is the proper course action for YOURSELF, rather than to adopt someone else's opinion.

Do you agree that Dr Goldhammer is not similar to Dr Berg?

 

And do you agree that he is not selling supplements?

 

Do you understand that he (and his team which includes MDs) has experience with safely leading many thousands of extended fasts over many years?

 

If you disagree with the above because of evidence please share it. If you now agree with the above will you at least consider that his proof of exercise not being good for extended fasts (not short ones) is correct? His proof is based on Dexa scans and safe results for all his patients and lots of clinical lab work and other testing. He does not work with rats and yeast etc but others do and we can learn from them - certainly...

 

What do you think of Dr Gil Carvalho? Who is a MD and research Phd?

 

"what works well for one may not work so well for another'  Good point.

 

" then to decide for yourself what YOU feel is the proper course action for YOURSELF," Agreed 100%.

 

I still feel that very few average people are qualified to understand the science because you need a high level of skill with statistics and a deep understanding of how the body works. I accept that you may disagree... smiling.

Edited August 29, 2022 by TravelerEastWest

[WaveHunter]

12 minutes ago, TravelerEastWest said:

Do you agree that Dr Goldhammer is not similar to Dr Berg?

 

And do you agree that he is not selling supplements?

 

Do you understand that he (and his team which includes MDs) has experience with safely leading many thousands of extended fasts over many years?

 

If you disagree with the above because of evidence please share it. If you now agree with the above will you at least consider that his proof of exercise not being good for extended fasts (not short ones) is correct? His proof is based on Dexa scans and safe results for all his patients and lots of clinical lab work and other testing. He does not work with rats and yeast etc but others do and we can learn from them - certainly...

 

What do you think of Dr Gil Carvalho? Who is a MD and research Phd?

 

"what works well for one may not work so well for another'  Good point.

 

" then to decide for yourself what YOU feel is the proper course action for YOURSELF," Agreed 100%.

 

I still feel that very few average people are qualified to understand the science because you need a high level of skill with statistics and a deep understanding of how the body works. I accept that you may disagree... smiling.

Do you agree that Dr Goldhammer is not similar to Dr Berg?

 

No, I think they are essentially the same.  Both are well meaning individuals, but both lack any sort of scientific credentials or time in a lab conducting fundamental (not case-basedl) research to be considered authorities.  

 

Chiropractic “science” is a form of alternative medicine with no firm scientific basis to it.  It is a pseudo discipline, and perhaps I'm biased but I have a distaste for most of the chiropractic practicineers I've personally encountered.

 

Both are very skilled businessmen and their prime motivation is profit.  Nothing wrong with that, mind you, but they are clearly not in the same league of genuine university based researchers.

 

Even Dr. Jason Fung has a higher level of believability, being an MD with a specialty in nephrology.

 

And do you agree that he is not selling supplements?

I don't know if he is or is not.  What I do know is he is highly profit-driven.  ALl you have to do is look at his heavily scripted "interviews", and know he is faily disingenuous in how he promotes his clinic.

 

Do you understand that he (and his team which includes MDs) has experience with safely leading many thousands of extended fasts over many years?

 

Yes, I know that, but there is a big difference between overseeing a person's fasting experience, and truly understanding the underlying science, and the ramifications of it.  Again, he is a chiropractor, not a credentialled doctor of medicine. 

 

What do you think of Dr Gil Carvalho? Who is a MD and research Phd?

I'm pretty widely read in the metabolic sciences and his name sounds familiar but not in any way that left an impression on me, I'm sorry to say.

 

I still feel that very few average people are qualified to understand the science because you need a high level of skill with statistics and a deep understanding of how the body works. I accept that you may disagree... smiling.

 

Well I happen to agree that very few people are qualified to understand the metabolic sciences, most assuredly including me, but that is also true for the cutting edge researchers.  That doesn't  you should have no call to action though.

 

It's your body.  If you have the desire and motivation to learn as much as you can about it from knowledge that's available today, why shouldn;'t you try to implement some of it into your own lifestyle?

 

There's a popular term for people who feel that way, and it's called being a bio-hacker.  I'm proud to say that is what I think of myself as being.  I love the metabolic sciences. 

 

I love learning of the latest breaking research that sometimes totally turns the world upside down, like Dr.  Yoshinori Ohsumi's groundbreaking research into autophagy that not only landed him the  Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 2016, but has dramatically changed the way researchers are studying diseases such as Diabetes type 2, Parkinson's disease, Alzheimers, and even possible underlying causes of cancer.

 

It's true that the surface has barely been scratch about how the body truly works, and much of that may never be known, but for an individual like you or me to apply what IS known, or even what is highly probable to their own lives is often a worthwhile pursuit.

[BigStar]

8 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

Nice post.  It's always going to happen that people will have varying opinions since everybody is different and what works well for one may not work so well for another.  That's why I think the best approach is to take in as much raw information as you can from very well vetted sources BUT then to decide for yourself what YOU feel is the proper course action for YOURSELF, rather than to adopt someone else's opinion.

That is the best approach, I agree, but few follow it here.

 

Mostly we see a rationalization of current comfortable behavior. New information is “refuted” by repeating outdated, false, or biased information that’s almost always come from financially vested interests in the food, health, fitness, pharma, vegan, and climate change industries.

 

90% of 2020 Dietary Guidelines Advisory Committee members had a conflict of interest with pharmaceutical and/or food processing companies, including sugary-cereal-makers General Mills & Kellogg's, explaining, in part, epidemic T2 #diabetes among children and adults.

     --Alan Watson, @DietHeartNews

 

As GuruAnaerobic tweeted recently,

 

The people who believed the (now debunked) Obesity Paradox were overweight.

 

People cannot help believing in things which confirms their lifestyle or worldview. . . . Intelligence doesn't make people immune from this.

 

The blithe, seemingly objective assertion of “whatever works for you” may be subsequently followed by the opposite assertion of “except THAT,” somehow regarded as a threat. ????

 

So, as one might expect, claims of “works" or "following the proper course of action” FOR ME may upon closer scrutiny be found either obviously not working so well or the poster doesn’t actually know how well it’s “working” except for pleasing his taste buds. Later the truth comes out in the Health forum or in admissions of needing a handful of meds; or indirectly by a refusal to reveal the critical numbers.

 

Unfortunately, what REALLY works best FOR YOU in terms of health and fitness is almost always going to involve some effort, discipline, and—what we most hate—stress.

 

On the last point, I’ll just comment that our ace Longevity Researchers will often point to avoiding stress as a factor promoting longevity. The popular checklists are talking about intense mental stress such as incurred from job, financial, or marital problems, not from exercise or (cough) sugar avoidance.

 

In most average cases, some things are going to work better for one's health and fitness than whatever it is one thinks is working or would work IF one actually did it.

 

[TravelerEastWest]

"Chiropractic “science” is a form of alternative medicine with no firm scientific basis to it.  It is a pseudo discipline, and perhaps I'm biased but I have a distaste for most of the chiropractic practiciners I've personally encountered."

 

I agree that many Chiropractors are shall we politely say questionable. But I don't understand why you keep going back to this as  Dr Goldhammer is a credentialled doctor an Osteopathic doctor which is a level of skill and training basically equal to an MD. Or do you think they are not real licensed doctors in all 50 states?

 

I doubt he he has been doing anything Chiropratic related for many years. Also I dont see any proof of his unusual profit motive (beyond taking care of his family) as he has a non profit foundation and is putting money into research I somehow doubt Berg is doing the same - is he?

 

Dr Fung is an MD which is at the same level as an osteopathic doctor yes he has a kidney specialty and Goldhammer has an extended water fast specialty.

 

I also don't understand why you value lab research at a higher level for the sake of this discussion of is it safe to exercise and go on a long fast? I am not sure what value experiments on yeast and rats etc would have compared to real world experience with thousands of patients if you can explain your point I will be happy to listen.

[TravelerEastWest]

On 8/29/2022 at 5:56 PM, TravelerEastWest said:

"Chiropractic “science” is a form of alternative medicine with no firm scientific basis to it.  It is a pseudo discipline, and perhaps I'm biased but I have a distaste for most of the chiropractic practiciners I've personally encountered."

 

I agree that many Chiropractors are shall we politely say questionable. But I don't understand why you keep going back to this as  Dr Goldhammer is a credentialled doctor an Osteopathic doctor which is a level of skill and training basically equal to an MD. Or do you think they are not real licensed doctors in all 50 states?

 

I doubt he he has been doing anything Chiropratic related for many years. Also I dont see any proof of his unusual profit motive (beyond taking care of his family) as he has a non profit foundation and is putting money into research I somehow doubt Berg is doing the same - is he?

 

Dr Fung is an MD which is at the same level as an osteopathic doctor yes he has a kidney specialty and Goldhammer has an extended water fast specialty.

 

I also don't understand why you value lab research at a higher level for the sake of this discussion of is it safe to exercise and go on a long fast? I am not sure what value experiments on yeast and rats etc would have compared to real world experience with thousands of patients if you can explain your point I will be happy to listen.

Wave Hunter, I hope that you are OK. Normally you answer quickly...

 

You seem to be missing key points so I just want to know if you read my comments showing that Dr Goldhammer is nothing like Dr Berg?

 

Or do you not agree that Osteopathic doctors are real doctors just like MDs?

[WaveHunter]

On 9/5/2022 at 4:56 PM, TravelerEastWest said:

Wave Hunter, I hope that you are OK. Normally you answer quickly...

 

You seem to be missing key points so I just want to know if you read my comments showing that Dr Goldhammer is nothing like Dr Berg?

 

Or do you not agree that Osteopathic doctors are real doctors just like MDs?

Sorry TEW, I try not to spend too much time on the forum.  I don't really want to debate the merits or criticisms of Goldhammer.  I admit, it is just my personal opinion I am expressing about him. 

 

You can call me prejudiced if you wish, but there is a big difference between an osteopath and a licensed MD.  Legitimate MD's who promote the concept of water fasting are coming at it from an in-depth and credentialed understanding of human physiology and metabolic biochemistry.  Osteopath are not.  Fung is a nephrologist with a clinical history of treating metabolic syndromes and diseases such as Diabetes type 2.  Osteopaths do not have such a clinical history AT ALL.

 

I'm not saying that advice from people like Goldhammer and Berg are not informative or helpful, but they are not scientific authorities on such subjects anymore than you or I, or any well read individual.

[TravelerEastWest]

6 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

Sorry TEW, I try not to spend too much time on the forum.  I don't really want to debate the merits or criticisms of Goldhammer.  I admit, it is just my personal opinion I am expressing about him. 

 

You can call me prejudiced if you wish, but there is a big difference between an osteopath and a licensed MD.  Legitimate MD's who promote the concept of water fasting are coming at it from an in-depth and credentialed understanding of human physiology and metabolic biochemistry.  Osteopath are not.  Fung is a nephrologist with a clinical history of treating metabolic syndromes and diseases such as Diabetes type 2.  Osteopaths do not have such a clinical history AT ALL.

 

I'm not saying that advice from people like Goldhammer and Berg are not informative or helpful, but they are not scientific authorities on such subjects anymore than you or I, or any well read individual.

I see you very much enjoy putting forth your thoughts (evidenced by many posts...), but when presented with evidence to the contrary you lose interest - fair enough and you are honest - I respect that.

 

The facts under the law of all 50 US states (not sure about other countries...) are that they are equal and they have similar medical training. MDs and Osteopaths are very similar:

 

"DOs have all the same responsibilities and rights as MDs, including the abilities to perform surgery with proper training and prescribe medicine.

How Are MDs and DOs Similar?

MDs and DOs follow similar educational routes. They must first earn a four-year undergraduate degree, and most will take pre-medicine courses during this time. After getting an undergraduate degree, they will attend either medical school or a college of osteopathic medicine.

After finishing four years of medical education, MDs and DOs must complete an internship and a residency. A residency is on-the-job training under the supervision of more experienced doctors. Some MDs and DOs will also go on to do fellowships to learn more about a specialty."

 

So the very clear facts again under the law and by training is that Dr Goldhammer is nothing like Berg. Actually Dr Goldhammer is a serious professional with training and lots of experience Dr Berg is not currently practicing and has been in trouble with the law:

https://quackwatch.org/cases/board/chiro/berg/ 

So it is clear they are not similar at all.

 

I don't know your background you could be a MD or have a Phd in science; but I can tell you that I have no where near the training that Dr Goldhammer has and certainly not the clinical experience. So my opinons are not as good as his...

 

"Osteopaths do not have such a clinical history AT ALL."

 

You are clearly mistaken - Dr Goldhammer has more than 20,000 patients that he and his team (which includes MDs) has treated at his clinic much more than Dr Fung. and more long term fasting experience and I am not sure that Dr Fung does any actual extended water fasts at all - I think he advises taking supplements and the option of coffee etc.

 

So in summary there is no science that I have found (or you have cited) after a long time searching that says we should exercise while doing an extended water fast (more than 7 days and no supplements only water) and the many patients seen at True North by Dr Goldhammer and MDs have clearly shown that it is safe and advisable to not exercise while on an extended (true) water fast.

 

They have shown safety by never having a problem with more than 20,000 patients. They have shown low loss of lean tissue using Dexa scans.

 

I am planning to start an extended water fast soon and I was hoping that you could come up with some clear proof that exercising during an extended fast is a good idea. Or evidence that resting is harmful.

 

 

Edited September 18, 2022 by TravelerEastWest

[jacob182]

A meal with a balance of protein, fat, and carbs would be most beneficial.