The Surprisingly Strong US Supreme Court Precedent Supporting Vaccine Mandates

[gargamon]

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/09/08/vaccine-mandate-strong-supreme-court-precedent-510280

 

Henning Jacobson, a 50-year-old minister, put his faith in his own liberty. Back in his native Sweden, he had suffered a bad reaction to a vaccine as an infant, struggling for years with an angry rash. Now he was an American citizen, serving as pastor of the Swedish Lutheran Church in Cambridge, Massachusetts. That gave him the full protections of the U.S. Constitution.

 

So when the Cambridge board of health decided that all adults must be vaccinated for smallpox, Jacobson sought refuge in the Constitution’s promise that no state shall “deprive any person of life, liberty or property without due process of law.”

 

The year was 1904, and when his politically charged legal challenge to the $5 fine for failing to get vaccinated made its way to the Supreme Court, the justices had a surprise for Rev. Jacobson. One man’s liberty, they declared in a 7-2 ruling handed down the following February, cannot deprive his neighbors of their own liberty — in this case by allowing the spread of disease. Jacobson, they ruled, must abide by the order of the Cambridge board of health or pay the penalty.

 

=======================

not quiite as free as they think...

 

[Jeffr2]

Love it!

[Scott]

Troll post removed.

 

[internationalism]

but somehow this case is not being used.

The guy had some allergy, those patients are exclude from vax programs. Same as some the other groups (children, pregnant, over certain age, contraindicated underlying conditions).

When I go for any vax at travel clini, there is always doctor's interview with careful notes being taken down for medical history.

Once happen to me a younger doctor left an interview room and consulted her superior. After coming back she offered me a different vax.

There is always declaration of consent to be signed and always sitting for 30 minutes under observation. I have witnessed one patient feeling unwell just a minute after a jab and promptly wisked back in the treatment room.

Looks like medicine made some progress since the above case over 100 years ago. 

[Ryan754326]

 

The obvious difference here is that the smallpox vaccine actually stops the spread of the disease. 
 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, Ryan754326 said:

 

The obvious difference here is that the smallpox vaccine actually stops the spread of the disease. 
 

 

Here’s another chance for you to inform yourself with some peer reviewed science:

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

2 hours ago, internationalism said:

but somehow this case is not being used.

The guy had some allergy, those patients are exclude from vax programs. Same as some the other groups (children, pregnant, over certain age, contraindicated underlying conditions).

When I go for any vax at travel clini, there is always doctor's interview with careful notes being taken down for medical history.

Once happen to me a younger doctor left an interview room and consulted her superior. After coming back she offered me a different vax.

There is always declaration of consent to be signed and always sitting for 30 minutes under observation. I have witnessed one patient feeling unwell just a minute after a jab and promptly wisked back in the treatment room.

Looks like medicine made some progress since the above case over 100 years ago. 

The SCOTUS not applying its own case law is something of a thing at the moment.

 

 

[cdemundo]

2 hours ago, Ryan754326 said:

 

The obvious difference here is that the smallpox vaccine actually stops the spread of the disease. 
 

 

Eyeroll.

[Ryan754326]

2 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Here’s another chance for you to inform yourself with some peer reviewed science:

 

 

Well, I wish my local health authorities would take this information into consideration when coming up with their policies, because I’m fully vaccinated, and yet here I am being required to wear a mask again, and not allowed to have more than five people (all from the same household) over for dinner, even if all of them are vaccinated too. 
 

If 99% of those who are hospitalized or dying from covid are unvaccinated, then why are public events that require a vaccination to attend being canceled? 

 

If the government is going to make the vaccines mandatory, then those who have had them should be able to get back to normal. The government, along with the Pharma companies, should also be willing to take responsibility if even a tiny percentage of those people have serious complications or die as a result of taking the vaccine. 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2021 by Ryan754326

[Ryan754326]

2 hours ago, cdemundo said:

Eyeroll.

Roll your eyes all you want, but the people in charge of making the rules apparently think that breakthrough infections and vaccinated spreaders are enough of a risk to justify keeping the vaccinated under the same restrictions as the unvaccinated. 

[Chomper Higgot]

33 minutes ago, Ryan754326 said:

Well, I wish my local health authorities would take this information into consideration when coming up with their policies, because I’m fully vaccinated, and yet here I am being required to wear a mask again, and not allowed to have more than five people (all from the same household) over for dinner, even if all of them are vaccinated too. 
 

If 99% of those who are hospitalized or dying from covid are unvaccinated, then why are public events that require a vaccination to attend being canceled? 

 

If the government is going to make the vaccines mandatory, then those who have had them should be able to get back to normal. The government, along with the Pharma companies, should also be willing to take responsibility if even a tiny percentage of those people have serious complications or die as a result of taking the vaccine. 

 

 

Vaccines, masks, social distancing etc are all ‘layers of protection’.

 

Like everything else in life, non are perfect, therefore while infection rates remain high it is not a matter of choosing one ‘layer of protection’ while discarding the others.

 

The following diagram  illustrates the principle of ‘layers of protection:

 

 

 

 

[Ryan754326]

23 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Vaccines, masks, social distancing etc are all ‘layers of protection’.

 

Like everything else in life, non are perfect, therefore while infection rates remain high it is not a matter of choosing one ‘layer of protection’ while discarding the others.

 

The following diagram  illustrates the principle of ‘layers of protection:

 

 

 

 

The UK is saying that 95% of their population has antibodies, but infection rates there continue to climb. At this rate, we’ll be wearing these many layers of protection forever. 
 

If the studies show that vaccinated people are at low risk of serious symptoms or death, and are extremely unlikely to spread covid to others, then why do they need all of these layers of protection? 
 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

12 minutes ago, Ryan754326 said:

The UK is saying that 95% of their population has antibodies, but infection rates there continue to climb. At this rate, we’ll be wearing these many layers of protection forever. 
 

If the studies show that vaccinated people are at low risk of serious symptoms or death, and are extremely unlikely to spread covid to others, then why do they need all of these layers of protection? 
 

 

Have the UK stated that 95% of the population have antibodies to the Delta variant that is the virus behind the new infections?

 

Haven’t the UK relaxed a number of COVID related precautions?

 

Has the number of vaccinated persons in the UK reached that required to prevent the rate of infections of the highly infectious Delta Variant from growing?

 

Methinks you are cherry picking information and applying it to your arguments without being able to demonstrate the applicability of the statements you make.

 

Your answers to the questions above are a chance to prove me wrong.

[Ryan754326]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Have the UK stated that 95% of the population have antibodies to the Delta variant that is the virus behind the new infections?

 

Haven’t the UK relaxed a number of COVID related precautions?

 

Has the number of vaccinated persons in the UK reached that required to prevent the rate of infections of the highly infectious Delta Variant from growing?

 

Methinks you are cherry picking information and applying it to your arguments without being able to demonstrate the applicability of the statements you make.

 

Your answers to the questions above are a chance to prove me wrong.

Have the UK stated that 95% of the population have antibodies to the Delta variant that is the virus behind the new infections?

 

From what I understand, being vaccinated is still very effective against Delta, at least in terms of preventing serious symptoms and death. The same appears to be true for natural immunity. 
Delta variant is still covid, so I would expect there to be some cross immunity between the variants, as is the case with other viruses. I’ve seen some research which even suggests that having come into contact with other common coronaviruses could give some level of immunity to covid, but I don’t know whether that has been disproven or not. 
If each new variant is, in fact, able to escape immunity from the last round of vaccines, then how can we ever expect to beat this? It seems unlikely that it will be possible to continually develop updated booster shots and get them into the arms of almost 8 billion people before the next variant pops up. 

 

Haven’t the UK relaxed a number of COVID related precautions?

 

I don’t live in the UK, but from what I understand, yes, they have relaxed some restrictions.
Here in Canada, we relaxed the restrictions in July, but we are now reinstating them due to rising case numbers. It will be interesting to see how things go when the colder weather comes. Case numbers and death numbers over the summer of 2021 were very similar to 2020, when no one was vaccinated, so who’s to say that we don’t see the case numbers go back up to where they were last winter, in the coming months?

 

Has the number of vaccinated persons in the UK reached that required to prevent the rate of infections of the highly infectious Delta Variant from growing?

 

I don’t know. What is the number of vaccinated persons required to prevent the rate of infections from growing? I hear that they are now saying 90% fully vaccinated. I guess we’ll have to wait and see if they’re right or not. 
 

I’m not a virology expert, so I don’t claim to have all the answers. I’m just a guy expressing my opinion on a discussion forum, and my opinion is that cases will continue to rise and fall regardless of the number of people who are vaccinated. If that happens, then I guess we’ll have to ask ourselves if we are willing to put up with periodic restrictions every time the numbers rise. I know that’s not the world I want to live in. 
 

[Jeffr2]

11 hours ago, Ryan754326 said:

 

The obvious difference here is that the smallpox vaccine actually stops the spread of the disease. 
 

 

The Covid vaccines help stop the spread. Smallpox isn't like covid. Obviously.

[Jeffr2]

2 hours ago, Ryan754326 said:

Have the UK stated that 95% of the population have antibodies to the Delta variant that is the virus behind the new infections?

 

From what I understand, being vaccinated is still very effective against Delta, at least in terms of preventing serious symptoms and death. The same appears to be true for natural immunity. 
Delta variant is still covid, so I would expect there to be some cross immunity between the variants, as is the case with other viruses. I’ve seen some research which even suggests that having come into contact with other common coronaviruses could give some level of immunity to covid, but I don’t know whether that has been disproven or not. 
If each new variant is, in fact, able to escape immunity from the last round of vaccines, then how can we ever expect to beat this? It seems unlikely that it will be possible to continually develop updated booster shots and get them into the arms of almost 8 billion people before the next variant pops up. 

 

Haven’t the UK relaxed a number of COVID related precautions?

 

I don’t live in the UK, but from what I understand, yes, they have relaxed some restrictions.
Here in Canada, we relaxed the restrictions in July, but we are now reinstating them due to rising case numbers. It will be interesting to see how things go when the colder weather comes. Case numbers and death numbers over the summer of 2021 were very similar to 2020, when no one was vaccinated, so who’s to say that we don’t see the case numbers go back up to where they were last winter, in the coming months?

 

Has the number of vaccinated persons in the UK reached that required to prevent the rate of infections of the highly infectious Delta Variant from growing?

 

I don’t know. What is the number of vaccinated persons required to prevent the rate of infections from growing? I hear that they are now saying 90% fully vaccinated. I guess we’ll have to wait and see if they’re right or not. 
 

I’m not a virology expert, so I don’t claim to have all the answers. I’m just a guy expressing my opinion on a discussion forum, and my opinion is that cases will continue to rise and fall regardless of the number of people who are vaccinated. If that happens, then I guess we’ll have to ask ourselves if we are willing to put up with periodic restrictions every time the numbers rise. I know that’s not the world I want to live in. 
 

You're not a virology expert. For sure.

[jak2002003]

2 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

You're not a virology expert. For sure.

Are you a virology expert then? Are any of us really any the wiser?

 

 

[lucky2008]

12 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

You're not a virology expert. For sure.

And you are certainly not one as well. 

Ryan754326 is just stating his opinion, but in your case you claim to have all the right answers.  

Shame on you.  

[Jeffr2]

12 minutes ago, jak2002003 said:

Are you a virology expert then? Are any of us really any the wiser?

 

 

Not an expert. But only rely on the advice of experts.

[Jeffr2]

1 minute ago, lucky2008 said:

And you are certainly not one as well. 

Ryan754326 is just stating his opinion, but in your case you claim to have all the right answers.  

Shame on you.  

That member is a known covid denier. Shame on him.

[Nojohndoe]

7 hours ago, Ryan754326 said:

Roll your eyes all you want, but the people in charge of making the rules apparently think that breakthrough infections and vaccinated spreaders are enough of a risk to justify keeping the vaccinated under the same restrictions as the unvaccinated. 

Perhaps you would prefer a reversal of the situation where leprosy sufferers  were compelled to carry a sign saying "Unclean" ? In the case of the  fully  covid-19 vaccinated it could read " Vaccinated  but possibly  Unclean anyway" ?

[Chomper Higgot]

36 minutes ago, jak2002003 said:

Are you a virology expert then? Are any of us really any the wiser?

 

 

I’m certainly not a virology expert or a medical doctor.

 

That’s why I follow the medical advice of those who are qualified to give it.

[Chomper Higgot]

28 minutes ago, lucky2008 said:

And you are certainly not one as well. 

Ryan754326 is just stating his opinion, but in your case you claim to have all the right answers.  

Shame on you.  

There is a distinct difference between uninformed, or worse still misinformed, lay opinion and the opinion of professionals who specialize in the field.

 

Hence the frequent requests for links to support lay opinions expressed on both sides of the argument, while only one side of the argument has the habit of advising  ‘seek medical advice from a doctor’.

 

Not all opinions are equally valid, many have no validity at all and some are dangerously misinformed.

 

 

 

 

 

[Ryan754326]

1 hour ago, Jeffr2 said:

Not an expert. But only rely on the advice of experts.

Which experts? They all say different things. Some get more TV time than others. 

[Ryan754326]

1 hour ago, Jeffr2 said:

That member is a known covid denier. Shame on him.

I’m vaccinated, and have never denied the existence or the severity of covid. I just don’t think there’s anything wrong with asking questions, or listening to what a less popular expert has to say, and then comparing their opinion to what the TV says. 
 

Give it up with that tired old label. Do you call people nazis too? 

[jak2002003]

I like to research and gather information from both sides of the covid 19 'arguments'.

 

Then draw my own conclusions from my

 findings.  But my opinions are not fixed, and any new info that comes up can change my mind about things.

 

What I don't understand are the fanatics that deny the virus exists and also the people that blindly follow any rules the governments impose and then want to force everyone to conform..... and if others have a question or doubt they are ridiculed and demonised. 

 

Why can't people think for themselves these days and why do they always get so polerised and aggressive in their views? 

 

 

 

 

[cdemundo]

10 hours ago, Ryan754326 said:

Roll your eyes all you want, but the people in charge of making the rules apparently think that breakthrough infections and vaccinated spreaders are enough of a risk to justify keeping the vaccinated under the same restrictions as the unvaccinated. 

That is not what you claimed.  

Now you reply to my eyeball by saying there is "enough of a risk" to take precautions.

I rolled my eyes when you said the COVID vaccine in contrast to smallpox vaccine, does not work.

Not the same thing.

[Jeffr2]

2 hours ago, Ryan754326 said:

I’m vaccinated, and have never denied the existence or the severity of covid. I just don’t think there’s anything wrong with asking questions, or listening to what a less popular expert has to say, and then comparing their opinion to what the TV says. 
 

Give it up with that tired old label. Do you call people nazis too? 

What less popular expert are you referring to?

 

Few experts are on TV. With the exception of Fauci. TV isn't the best place to get expert opinions.

 

Why bring up nazis? Bizarre.

[Jeffr2]

2 hours ago, jak2002003 said:

I like to research and gather information from both sides of the covid 19 'arguments'.

 

Then draw my own conclusions from my

 findings.  But my opinions are not fixed, and any new info that comes up can change my mind about things.

 

What I don't understand are the fanatics that deny the virus exists and also the people that blindly follow any rules the governments impose and then want to force everyone to conform..... and if others have a question or doubt they are ridiculed and demonised. 

 

Why can't people think for themselves these days and why do they always get so polerised and aggressive in their views? 

 

 

 

 

What are the 2 sides of the covid argument?

 

Why can't people think for themselves these days? Just look at how many are supportive of ivermectin. Or, are anti mask or anti vaccine. Scary!

[Chomper Higgot]

6 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

What are the 2 sides of the covid argument?

 

Why can't people think for themselves these days? Just look at how many are supportive of ivermectin. Or, are anti mask or anti vaccine. Scary!

A little time spent looking at where these messages of ‘free thought’ come from explains why millions of people are attached to the very same conspiracy theories, mistrust of Doctors, Scientists, Science, Universities and of course Government.

 

Millions of people believing they came to conclude on the very same cookie cut nonsense by means of their own free thought and their own ‘research’.

 

The science is settled vaccines work, ‘layers of protection work’.

 

But we live in a world in which ‘free thinkers’ will drive past half a dozen vaccination centers on their way to the animal feed store to buy horse medicines for themselves and their family.