The Infectious Nature of Misinformaton

[Someone Else]

25 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

the methodology is more important than the data to be honest, a lot of data is trash and can be disregarded. The first thing you learn is to understand how the data was sourced, why we are using such and such, what is relevant or noises etc...

 

and after that it's all about methodologies how to treat the data and compute the aggregates, so statisticians understand it's all about the process, and the containers, not the contents (raw data).

Then show us your methodology for statements such as "anywhere from 5% to 10% of the vaccinated population being affected with long term effect".

 

[Chomper Higgot]

49 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

the methodology is more important than the data to be honest, a lot of data is trash and can be disregarded. The first thing you learn is to understand how the data was sourced, why we are using such and such, what is relevant or noises etc...

 

and after that it's all about methodologies how to treat the data and compute the aggregates, so statisticians understand it's all about the process, and the containers, not the contents (raw data).

So it’s the methodology that has left you with no data.

 

 

[Atlantis]

 

On 10/2/2021 at 7:20 PM, LarrySR said:

We all have lost friends and family members to Rupert Murdochs propaganda machine.

The consumers of his media products dwell in an alternative reality of fake news and conspiracy theories. Drip feeding the viewers a steady dose of hate, fear, outrage and disinformation to support a corporate political agenda.

 

https://www.foxnews.com/media/msnbc-rachel-maddow-flamed-tweet-false-claims-overrun-oklahoma-hospitals

 

“Rupert Murdoch’s propaganda machine” - that sweeping statement suggests you need to adjust for some acute omission bias, pronto. Fox News, like most other mainstream news outlets can often be crucial when nearly every other major broadcaster shamefully chooses to remain silent.

 

This outright hoax of a story (not an exaggerated use of the word) spread far and wide, well beyond US news media. And even when Rolling Stone retracted it, the complicit conventional said nothing and continued to let the misinformation spread on social media.

 

How many on this thread fell for it? Raise your hands please! And how many more gleefully took part in disseminating it? - even after it became clear it was made up?

 

Misinformation Cuts Both Ways.

[ozimoron]

16 minutes ago, Atlantis said:

 

https://www.foxnews.com/media/msnbc-rachel-maddow-flamed-tweet-false-claims-overrun-oklahoma-hospitals

 

“Rupert Murdoch’s propaganda machine” - that sweeping statement suggests you need to adjust for some acute omission bias, pronto. Fox News, like most other mainstream news outlets can often be crucial when nearly every other major broadcaster shamefully chooses to remain silent.

 

This outright hoax of a story (not an exaggerated use of the word) spread far and wide, well beyond US news media. And even when Rolling Stone retracted it, the complicit conventional said nothing and continued to let the misinformation spread on social media.

 

How many on this thread fell for it? Raise your hands please! And how many more gleefully took part in disseminating it? - even after it became clear it was made up?

 

Misinformation Cuts Both Ways.

Fox are lying as usual.

 

An Oklahoma doctor has said overdoses of the anti-parasitic drug ivermectin, which many believe without evidence can prevent or cure Covid-19, are helping cause delays and problems for rural hospitals and ambulance services struggling to cope with the resurgent pandemic.

 

He said the rise in cases of ivermectin misuse came as Oklahoma’s rural hospitals were already struggling to cope with a surge in Covid patients. “The [emergency rooms] are so backed up that gunshot victims were having hard times getting to facilities where they can get definitive care and be treated,” he told KFOR.

 

McElyea told the Tulsa World a colleague was forced to send one severely ill Covid patient to a hospital in South Dakota, three states away to the north. “They had sat in a small hospital needing to be in an [intensive care unit] for several days, and that was the closest ICU that was available,” he said.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/04/oklahoma-doctor-ivermectin-covid-coronavirus

Edited October 4, 2021 by ozimoron

[Atlantis]

To the mods:

 

In case any other posters after me links to dated articles that have not been retracted, please can you inform other posters after removal with the following links. After all, there are much less underhanded ways to argue against ivermectin besides simply making sh*t up. Thank you.

 

https://cms.thepostmillennial.com/rachel-maddow-refuses-to-delete-tweet-spreading-rolling-stone-ivermectin-hoax/

 

An article by a local Oklahoma news outlet that went viral, was picked up by Rolling Stone, the BBC, The Guardian, and others, and turned out to be false, has still not been retracted by one of the biggest influencers who shared it, Rachel Maddow.

https://thepostmillennial.com/rolling-stone-humiliated-after-story-about-hospital-overwhelmed-by-patients-overdosing-on-ivermectin-falls-apart

 

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/gunshot-victims-horse-dewormer-ivermectin-oklahoma-hospitals-covid-1220608/

 

[ozimoron]

11 minutes ago, Atlantis said:

To the mods:

 

In case any other posters after me links to dated articles that have not been retracted, please can you inform other posters after removal with the following links. After all, there are much less underhanded ways to argue against ivermectin besides simply making sh*t up. Thank you.

 

https://cms.thepostmillennial.com/rachel-maddow-refuses-to-delete-tweet-spreading-rolling-stone-ivermectin-hoax/

 

An article by a local Oklahoma news outlet that went viral, was picked up by Rolling Stone, the BBC, The Guardian, and others, and turned out to be false, has still not been retracted by one of the biggest influencers who shared it, Rachel Maddow.

https://thepostmillennial.com/rolling-stone-humiliated-after-story-about-hospital-overwhelmed-by-patients-overdosing-on-ivermectin-falls-apart

 

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/gunshot-victims-horse-dewormer-ivermectin-oklahoma-hospitals-covid-1220608/

 

"What we can confirm is that we have seen a handful of ivermectin patients in our emergency rooms, to include INTEGRIS Grove Hospital. And while our hospitals are not filled with people who have taken ivermectin, such patients are adding to the congestion already cause by Covid-19 and other emergencies," it added.

 

https://factcheck.afp.com/http%3A%2F%2Fdoc.afp.com%2F9MD9HX-1

[placeholder]

4 hours ago, GrandPapillon said:

the methodology is more important than the data to be honest, a lot of data is trash and can be disregarded. The first thing you learn is to understand how the data was sourced, why we are using such and such, what is relevant or noises etc...

 

and after that it's all about methodologies how to treat the data and compute the aggregates, so statisticians understand it's all about the process, and the containers, not the contents (raw data).

Without data to confirm its soundness, methodology is not meaningfully different from a religious ritual.

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, Atlantis said:

 

https://www.foxnews.com/media/msnbc-rachel-maddow-flamed-tweet-false-claims-overrun-oklahoma-hospitals

 

“Rupert Murdoch’s propaganda machine” - that sweeping statement suggests you need to adjust for some acute omission bias, pronto. Fox News, like most other mainstream news outlets can often be crucial when nearly every other major broadcaster shamefully chooses to remain silent.

 

This outright hoax of a story (not an exaggerated use of the word) spread far and wide, well beyond US news media. And even when Rolling Stone retracted it, the complicit conventional said nothing and continued to let the misinformation spread on social media.

 

How many on this thread fell for it? Raise your hands please! And how many more gleefully took part in disseminating it? - even after it became clear it was made up?

 

Misinformation Cuts Both Ways.

You got evidence that anyone on this thread fell for it or disseminated it? Maybe you believe that Rachel Maddow is a member of thaivisa.com? Overreaching much?

 

[GrandPapillon]

21 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Without data to confirm its soundness, methodology is not meaningfully different from a religious ritual.

you need both, data without methodologies is garbage, and methodology without data is meaningless

 

I hope that answers your question,

[Jeffr2]

11 hours ago, GrandPapillon said:

no it hasn't been proven long term. Get a grip. Yes it's a success short term, but other vaccines have had short term success, only to have long term negative effects.

 

That said, with Covid, we will need to take that risk.

Tell us about the vaccines that had short term success (greater than one year, billions of doses administered) and then had long term consequences.

 

this should be interesting.

[Jeffr2]

8 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

you need both, data without methodologies is garbage, and methodology without data is meaningless

 

I hope that answers your question,

Give it a rest. Please. Good gosh.

[placeholder]

17 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

you need both, data without methodologies is garbage, and methodology without data is meaningless

 

I hope that answers your question,

And yet this was your conclusion in the comment I addressed: "so statisticians understand it's all about the process, and the containers, not the contents (raw data)."

[chessman]

15 hours ago, GrandPapillon said:

the methodology is more important than the data to be honest, a lot of data is trash and can be disregarded. The first thing you learn is to understand how the data was sourced, why we are using such and such, what is relevant or noises etc...

 

and after that it's all about methodologies how to treat the data and compute the aggregates, so statisticians understand it's all about the process, and the containers, not the contents (raw data).

As someone who often looks at Thai expat forums, I’ve read a lot of nonsensical gibberish but this one might be the most ridiculous.

 

You should realise that just because you are (seemingly) often swayed by people using a word salad of relevant vocabulary in an utterly random way, people with a modicum of understanding of the topic can usually see right through the BS.

[VocalNeal]

10 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

Tell us about the vaccines that had short term success (greater than one year, billions of doses administered) and then had long term consequences

Many millions of children have been vaccinated against polio, whooping cough, tuberculosis, etc..

As adults they are not dropping like flies?

 

Maybe it is only people born in countries with a high population density that are concerned about those diseases and vaccinate their children. 

Edited October 5, 2021 by VocalNeal

[frantick]

Misinformation: Let's go Brandon! 

[GroveHillWanderer]

On 10/4/2021 at 1:21 PM, GrandPapillon said:

no it hasn't been proven long term. Get a grip. Yes it's a success short term, but other vaccines have had short term success, only to have long term negative effects.

That's untrue. As stated repeatedly by numerous virologists and epidemiologists in various articles, no vaccine has ever been shown to have long term adverse effects.

 

Here are just a couple of examples of such statements.

 

Quote

"You wouldn’t expect any of these vaccines to have any long-term side effects. And in fact, this has never occurred with any vaccine."

Long term side effects of Covid vaccines

 

Quote

"Of all the vaccines we use, in infancy, childhood, adolescence, and adulthood, none of them have any long-term effects," Schaffner said.

"No vaccine has shown side effects 2 to 5 years later. That doesn't exist because there's no biological reason for it."

Is Old Vaccine Technology the Key to Hesitancy?

[GroveHillWanderer]

On 10/4/2021 at 10:08 AM, sucit said:

Just answer: what are the long term effects (say five years) of the vaccine? Oh, you don’t know. News: that means it’s experimental. They do trials for up to 10-15 years on all other vaccines for a reason. 

That doesn't mean they're experimental. Experimental vaccines are ones that are still undergoing clinical trials (trial and experiment being synonyms) and none of the Covid vaccines currently authorized for use, are still in the clinical trial phase.

 

For one thing, when vaccines are still in the trial/experimental stage, only half of the people receiving injections actually get the vaccine - the other half get a placebo. That is not what is happening with the vaccines under discussion, so they are clearly not experimental.

 

Also all other vaccines vaccines did not (and do not) undergo trials for 10-15 years, that's just a total skewing of the facts.

 

For instance, the mumps vaccine only took 4 years from start of design until approval. Also, although they're not starting from scratch every time, new flu vaccines are designed, developed and approved within 6 to 12 months every single year.

 

Now, it is true that many vaccines in the past had a total lead time of 10-15 years, from the start of the conceptual or design phase, all the way through till final, full approval. However, they did not spend that whole time undergoing human clinical trials.

 

Very often, 5-10 years of the total development lead time could be spent on design, laboratory and animal studies just to find a vaccine that was suitable to go into human trials.

 

Also, the human clinical trials often only lasted as long as they did because of the various logistical and bureaucratic procedures involved. In the UK for instance, the normal minimum time from submitting an application for approval to conduct a human clinical trial to receiving the go ahead is 6 months. It would then normally take another 6 months after submitting the results of each phase of trials, for the regulatory authority to get around to reviewing those results.

 

This was mainly due to the fact that there was no ongoing global health emergency caused by a totally new and deadly virus for which there was no known treatment or cure. Consequently there was no particular urgency to move quickly between different phases of development. With the Covid vaccines however, these fundamentally unnecessary bureaucratic delays, (which would often add up to years in total, for all three phases) were eliminated.

 

Furthermore it's not a valid or a logical argument to say that just because some vaccines in the past took 10 to 15 years to develop, therefore all vaccines now and forever into the future must also take that length of time.

 

As one epidemiologist has pointed out, asking why the Covid vaccines could be developed so quickly when vaccines in the past used to take a lot longer is akin to asking why international travellers can now get across the Atlantic Ocean in 6 hours when in the 1800’s, it used to take two weeks.

Edited October 5, 2021 by GroveHillWanderer

[Jeffr2]

5 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

As one epidemiologist pointed, asking why the Covid vaccines could be developed so quickly when vaccines in the past used to take a lot longer is akin to asking why international travellers can now get across the Atlantic Ocean in 6 hours when in the 1800’s, it used to take two weeks.

Perfect!

[WhiteBuffaloATM]

the irrational “statistician”goes from contemptuously and falsely accusing sensible folk here of “predicting the future “….then does precisely that himself …with 99% accuracy….. ten years ahead !! 

 

anti- vaxxers may have the right to chose, and I defend that right, but when chosing wrongly (not to vax), like any life bad decision, severe leper -like consequences, from the governing vaxxed majority, are soon coming… and rightly so…… taken to ICU to witness covid deaths……. unvaxxed “camps”maybe…no job outside sealed home……no leaving their residential  property…..no visitors ….no staying family……wearing hazmat gear outside their doors ( garden / roof/ grounds) ……complete physical isolation from all other people / society….. no vaxxed friends……no good reputation….

 

but hey, your choice….. what price their deluded “principles” then I wonder……..these clowns will be getting vaxxed in droves….” late vaxxer” shaming still awaits…..extreme but so would be the likely vaccine denial if THEY were in charge……

[ozimoron]

3 hours ago, WhiteBuffaloATM said:

but hey, your choice….. what price their deluded “principles” then I wonder……..these clowns will be getting vaxxed in droves….” late vaxxer” shaming still awaits…..extreme but so would be the likely vaccine denial if THEY were in charge……

I believe most are vaccinated anyway. It's all politics but when the chips are down they get vaccinated. Some have admitted as much. If Trump and co. hadn't gone in so hard on the anti vax stance this phenomenon, which is mainly prevalent among the American right, would never have existed.

[Jeffr2]

31 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

I believe most are vaccinated anyway. It's all politics but when the chips are down they get vaccinated. Some have admitted as much. If Trump and co. hadn't gone in so hard on the anti vax stance this phenomenon, which is mainly prevalent among the American right, would never have existed.

I'm in Portugal. When the president was asked why they have such a high vaccination rate, his reply. We didn't make it political.

[Chomper Higgot]

6 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

I'm in Portugal. When the president was asked why they have such a high vaccination rate, his reply. We didn't make it political.

Right wing politicians spreading ant-vaccine, anti-mask, anti-public health measures with the predictable result that their right wing followers (voters) will be disproportionately killed by the virus takes some figuring.

 

Considering politics when faced with a medical choice is even more baffling.

 

[Atlantis]

23 hours ago, ozimoron said:

Fox are lying as usual.

 

An Oklahoma doctor has said overdoses of the anti-parasitic drug ivermectin, which many believe without evidence can prevent or cure Covid-19, are helping cause delays and problems for rural hospitals and ambulance services struggling to cope with the resurgent pandemic.

 

He said the rise in cases of ivermectin misuse came as Oklahoma’s rural hospitals were already struggling to cope with a surge in Covid patients. “The [emergency rooms] are so backed up that gunshot victims were having hard times getting to facilities where they can get definitive care and be treated,” he told KFOR.

 

McElyea told the Tulsa World a colleague was forced to send one severely ill Covid patient to a hospital in South Dakota, three states away to the north. “They had sat in a small hospital needing to be in an [intensive care unit] for several days, and that was the closest ICU that was available,” he said.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/04/oklahoma-doctor-ivermectin-covid-coronavirus

23 hours ago, ozimoron said:

"What we can confirm is that we have seen a handful of ivermectin patients in our emergency rooms, to include INTEGRIS Grove Hospital. And while our hospitals are not filled with people who have taken ivermectin, such patients are adding to the congestion already cause by Covid-19 and other emergencies," it added.

 

https://factcheck.afp.com/http%3A%2F%2Fdoc.afp.com%2F9MD9HX-1

 

21 hours ago, placeholder said:

You got evidence that anyone on this thread fell for it or disseminated it? Maybe you believe that Rachel Maddow is a member of thaivisa.com? Overreaching much?

 

@placeholder@Dan O

I don't mean to make you look absurd, but it's just been pointed out to me that literally a couple of posts above yours another poster on here "fell for it" and then "disseminated it". Not just "on Thaivisa.com" but on this very thread above your post.

So thank you both so much (and the other poster) for making my point so wonderfully. When it comes to "misinformation" so many people give each other a pass here because they think its some kind of team sport. And as long as they are piling on the "anit-vaxxers" then their own side's silliness is just fine.

 

As for the attempt at implying Rachel Maddow isn't followed by any partisans on here...using that logic, apparently Fox's Will Cain and Tucker Carlson are members on here!

*Thank you for the confused smiley WhiteBuffaloATM; now edited with the quotations.
 

Edited October 5, 2021 by Atlantis
Missing quotes of offending post

[WhiteBuffaloATM]

hmmmm….. thanks for that info….. wasnt aware the anti - vaxx movement originated with Trump…

but yes it does seem to be highly prevalent only in red states there doesnt it ……the sensible conservative speakers there might possibly have spoken out more against it ……and maybe they did but no effect on the hardcore QAnon types pushing the microchip - in - vax tripe…..its a continuing mystery why the most technically advanced country ever, with 15 of the worlds top 20 universities no less,  has so many religious and conspiracy loons ….and serial killers …….

[Jeffr2]

20 minutes ago, Atlantis said:

 

@placeholder@Dan O

I don't mean to make you look absurd, but it's just been pointed out to me that literally a couple of posts above yours another poster on here "fell for it" and then "disseminated it". Not just "on Thaivisa.com" but on this very thread above your post.

So thank you both so much (and the other poster) for making my point so wonderfully. When it comes to "misinformation" so many people give each other a pass here because they think its some kind of team sport. And as long as they are piling on the "anit-vaxxers" then their own side's silliness is just fine.

 

As for the attempt at implying Rachel Maddow isn't followed by any partisans on here...using that logic, apparently Fox's Will Cain and Tucker Carlson are members on here!

*Thank you for the confused smiley WhiteBuffaloATM; now edited with the quotations.
 

One of the worst things that's happened to America. Faux News. A horrible media outlet.

[WhiteBuffaloATM]

except for Tucker Carlson though right ? his You Tube videos appear sensible & factual, drawing correct conclusions, dont they ? he even critisises Trump and the right when they get it wrong…..

but please educate me , as I detest all msm these days, but thought TC a notable exception…….

[placeholder]

23 minutes ago, Atlantis said:

 

@placeholder@Dan O

I don't mean to make you look absurd, but it's just been pointed out to me that literally a couple of posts above yours another poster on here "fell for it" and then "disseminated it". Not just "on Thaivisa.com" but on this very thread above your post.

So thank you both so much (and the other poster) for making my point so wonderfully. When it comes to "misinformation" so many people give each other a pass here because they think its some kind of team sport. And as long as they are piling on the "anit-vaxxers" then their own side's silliness is just fine.

 

As for the attempt at implying Rachel Maddow isn't followed by any partisans on here...using that logic, apparently Fox's Will Cain and Tucker Carlson are members on here!

*Thank you for the confused smiley WhiteBuffaloATM; now edited with the quotations.
 

.Literally a couple of posts above mine there's this:

That post, does not back Rachel Maddow's reporting on the Ivermectin claim. Quite the contrary. Maybe you just don't understand what "literally" means? Also, unlike you, I won't claim that your mistake makes you look "absurd" because absurd means this:

"wildly unreasonable, illogical, or inappropriate."

Just because you made a mistake here doesn't mean your post was absurd. For future reference false /= absurd.

 

[Atlantis]

4 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

One of the worst things that's happened to America. Faux News. A horrible media outlet.

Do excuse me for not replying earlier to your comments. I'd put you on Ignore a while back, can't remember exactly why now.

I can see why many of a certain political persuasion would describe them as that. They're pretty aggressive themselves. But may I just point out that if I am correct about your political biases, then watching Fox News to supplement whatever else it is you watch is even more useful than if you were, say, a Trump loyalist.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but people bash "Fox News", they typically mean the guys the Opinion / Commentary, especially anchors like Hannity / Tucker. The actual News section isn't that bad at all. And like I said earlier, its becoming increasingly crucial as many of the other networks deliberate fail to report inconvenient stories and even push actual misinformation - when they really Should.Know.Better.

 

[placeholder]

6 minutes ago, Atlantis said:

Do excuse me for not replying earlier to your comments. I'd put you on Ignore a while back, can't remember exactly why now.

I can see why many of a certain political persuasion would describe them as that. They're pretty aggressive themselves. But may I just point out that if I am correct about your political biases, then watching Fox News to supplement whatever else it is you watch is even more useful than if you were, say, a Trump loyalist.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but people bash "Fox News", they typically mean the guys the Opinion / Commentary, especially anchors like Hannity / Tucker. The actual News section isn't that bad at all. And like I said earlier, its becoming increasingly crucial as many of the other networks deliberate fail to report inconvenient stories and even push actual misinformation - when they really Should.Know.Better.

 

And what is the name of the network that Carlson and Hannity are featured on? Is it called Fox News & Opinions? As far as I'm aware, the network is called simply "Fox News". If you have a problem with this maybe you should take it up with Rupert Murdoch.

[Jeffr2]

11 minutes ago, WhiteBuffaloATM said:

except for Tucker Carlson though right ? his You Tube videos appear sensible & factual, drawing correct conclusions, dont they ? he even critisises Trump and the right when they get it wrong…..

but please educate me , as I detest all msm these days, but thought TC a notable exception…….

Tucker is the worst of the worst. A horrible individual. Best avoided at all costs. Even his lawyers say he is a liar.

 

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/29/917747123/you-literally-cant-believe-the-facts-tucker-carlson-tells-you-so-say-fox-s-lawye

 

You Literally Can't Believe The Facts Tucker Carlson Tells You. So Say Fox's Lawyers