People who are fully vaccinated against covid-19 are far less likely to infect others

[Jeffr2]

3 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Not sure what that means.  Would think any intelligent person would actually read the whole article and search the study if interested and wanting more info.  But have to admit, I'm not noticing much intelligence in the masses of late.

 

Sadly, most do not get past the headline, and why the world is in the state it is.  That's their problem, not mine.

Actually, it's your problem now.  We're all in this together.  Sadly.  And misinformation is what's keeping this pandemic going in various countries.

[KhunLA]

8 minutes ago, mtls2005 said:

Will be interesting to see if fully vaccinated tourists are required to wear masks?

 

I suspect many coming are expecting to be able to go mask-less as there is little mention of mask mandates in the "Re-Opening" promotions.

 

 

 

 

After researching and jumping through the hoops to find out what's needed to get into Thailand, doing all that and on the plane to Thailand, BUT not doing the same minor research to find out the situation after in Thailand ...

 

... well that takes a special kind of person.

[Chomper Higgot]

30 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Quoting a UK study.  Typical, attack the messenger, not the message.

And which bias news source do you consider trustworthy ?

I don’t get my news from the Kremlin controlled RT, which as we see in this case mischaracterizes the research it reports.

 

Your loaded ‘which bias news source’ question is not worthy of an answer.

 

The trustworthiness of any major news source is easily checked.

 

[KhunLA]

7 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Actually, it's your problem now.  We're all in this together.  Sadly.  And misinformation is what's keeping this pandemic going in various countries.

Not my problem.  I've researched and gained all the knowledge I need.  Misinformed, don't do their research, and that's their problem.

 

Actually I'm benefitting quite nicely from the misinformed, and though selfish, but I hope it stays this way.

[Chomper Higgot]

15 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Not sure what that means.  Would think any intelligent person would actually read the whole article and search the study if interested and wanting more info.  But have to admit, I'm not noticing much intelligence in the masses of late.

 

Sadly, most do not get past the headline, and why the world is in the state it is.  That's their problem, not mine.

The report that the Kremlin propaganda network RT (you posted) misrepresents has already been discussed in depth elsewhere within this forum.

 

 

[Jeffr2]

2 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Not my problem.  I've researched and gained all the knowledge I need.  Misinformed, don't do their research, and that's their problem.

 

Actually I'm benefitting quite nicely from the misinformed, and though selfish, but I hope it stays this way.

Your missing the point.  If they fall for the misinformation and lies, like what's on RT.com, then they won't get vaccinated, or try to convince others not to.  Thus, the pandemic extends, masks are required, businesses are closed, etc, etc, etc.

 

Again, it is your problem.  And seems like you might be part of the problem.

[Chomper Higgot]

3 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Not my problem.  I've researched and gained all the knowledge I need.  Misinformed, don't do their research, and that's their problem.

 

Actually I'm benefitting quite nicely from the misinformed, and though selfish, but I hope it stays this way.

You’ve researched?!

 

Have you published your research?

 

I’d like to read it to see what constitutes ‘research’ for a person who calls others misinformed while at the same time relying on RT for information and views.

[KhunLA]

If you actually stop at the headline, or the article in any news source, then you are misinformed.

 

If you actually read the study, as I did, you'd notice this.  

"Interpretation

Vaccination reduces the risk of delta variant infection and accelerates viral clearance. Nonetheless, fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully vaccinated contacts. "

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00648-4/fulltext

 

Of course reading back a page on this thread, I notice people attacking the study...nuff said.

It appears no source qualifies as valid when goes against the MSM spin.  

 

With that, I won't bother further comment or expressing my opinions on the subject.  Leave y'all to it.

 

Have a good day ... STAY SAFE

Edited November 1, 2021 by KhunLA

[The Cipher]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

"I actually don't really care if vaccines are made mandatory. It doesn't affect me at all."

You sure about that? What if you or someone in your family needs emergency treatment at a hospital but can't get it because the unvaccinated have made ICU beds unavailable?

I shudder to write this to a normie audience but...I would handle it like a man. The same way I handle everything else in my life.

 

And if, despite my best efforts the outcome was unfavorable to me, I like to think I'd have the wisdom and composure to place my loss in the context of the wider interest of society. I've said this multiple times, but I'm comfortable with the nature of this game of life in which we are all participants. I am aware that this is an exceedingly rare outlook in today's society.

 

It strikes me that our current situation is due as much to a lack of courage as anything else. So many people are scared of the virus despite its exceedingly low morality rate, and so many more are frightened of the vaccines despite their even lower mortality rates. When did we become a society of people frightened of a 99%+ survival rate in vaccinated populations, or the 99.9% survival rate of the vaccines themselves? Our leaders have neither the courage to truly reopen, nor the courage to mandate vaccination if that is indeed a tacit requirement for full reopening.

 

This comment is aimed at nobody and no 'side' in particular. But I am deeply deeply disappointed about what the Covid crisis in general has revealed about so many of the people who inhabit this world with me.

[WhiteBuffaloATM]

2 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Racist exposes himself and the world of hate living in his head.

 

 

classic “ad hominem” and “straw man” combination attack. confusing race with culture. drawing convenient weak conclusions. four strikes in one sentence. most unworthy of you. get a grip. we dont all share your perpetually offended “liberal” views. for sound empirical reasons. address the issues raised or be quiet. for a change.

 

[CrunchWrapSupreme]

American anti-vaxxers are proudly taking their pink slips (getting sacked) as they stand tall for their firm beliefs.

 

Fine by me. More job opportunities for both me and the wife when we go back.

 

Friend of mine has been trying to land a govt job forever. He says this'll probably be his ticket.

[Chomper Higgot]

19 minutes ago, WhiteBuffaloATM said:

classic “ad hominem” and “straw man” combination attack. confusing race with culture. drawing convenient weak conclusions. four strikes in one sentence. most unworthy of you. get a grip. we dont all share your perpetually offended “liberal” views. for sound empirical reasons. address the issues raised or be quiet. for a change.

 

I understand precisely which views we don’t share thank you.

[Chomper Higgot]

22 minutes ago, CrunchWrapSupreme said:

American anti-vaxxers are proudly taking their pink slips (getting sacked) as they stand tall for their firm beliefs.

 

Fine by me. More job opportunities for both me and the wife when we go back.

 

Friend of mine has been trying to land a govt job forever. He says this'll probably be his ticket.

A lot of folk say they’ll quit, few follow through:

 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/unvaccinated-workers-say-theyd-rather-quit-than-get-a-shot-but-data-suggest-otherwise/

[codemonkey]

On 10/30/2021 at 5:42 PM, ozimoron said:

The conclusion is that vaccinated people are less likely to get infected in the first place and therefore less likely to transmit the virus.

Insofar as design basis of covid vaccines did not include preventing spreading the virus, 3X "likely" is ok.

But, I think now the real world data is showing a very different outcome and conclusion when one considers the substantial outbreaks in exceptionally well-vaccinated places like Israel, Malta and Vermont, **Singapore, and others make it clear that pushing up vaccination rates does not guarantee control of Covid-19, especially infection rates by anyone regardless of vaccine status.

Breakthrough cases are sky rocketing as we speak and many fear grossly under reported by the CDC to avoid panic response.

Vaccine waning concept is another pressing and very concerning issue.

Tough sledding ahead with or without vaccination. I'm going to hide in the Alaskan wilderness or build an igloo in Tuktoyactuk or whatever it's called.

** Link considers comparison of viral loads, not vaccine rates.

Edited November 1, 2021 by codemonkey

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

Not sure what that means.  Would think any intelligent person would actually read the whole article and search the study if interested and wanting more info.  But have to admit, I'm not noticing much intelligence in the masses of late.

 

Sadly, most do not get past the headline, and why the world is in the state it is.  That's their problem, not mine.

But that headline is what you quoted as evidence to support your rebuttal. Why choose RT, the mouthpiece of the Russian Govt? There are better sources whose headlines would more accurately reflect the findings of that study. 

[placeholder]

8 minutes ago, codemonkey said:

Breakthrough cases are sky rocketing as we speak and many fear grossly under reported by the CDC to avoid panic response.

Who are these "many" who fear that the CDC is purposely underreporting cases?

[codemonkey]

12 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Who are these "many" who fear that the CDC is purposely underreporting cases?

PURPOSELY?

[WhiteBuffaloATM]

 

“But I am deeply deeply disappointed about what the Covid crisis in general has revealed about so many of the people who inhabit this world with me.”

 

I’m Not. Reason has only prevailed for last three hundred years of human history.

European Enlightment 17th century. But Rationality has No Chance when up against Mass Psychosis. A Deep Human Genetic Flaw. Survival Instinct evolved for Small Groups. But fails us when applied to the Internet -Connected Billions……..Never Mind. AI is coming for us all very soon…….????

[placeholder]

2 hours ago, codemonkey said:

PURPOSELY?

Let me reacquaint you with what you wrote:

 

"Breakthrough cases are sky rocketing as we speak and many fear grossly under reported by the CDC to avoid panic response."

 

So this alleged "many" fears that breakthrough cases are "grossly under reported by the CDC to avoid panic response". Not only do they fear under reporting but also have prescribed a motive to the CDC. Namely, that the under reporting is taking place "to avoid panic response". So, tell me, how can the CDC have a motive for doing something but not be doing it purposely? How would that work?

 

 

[placeholder]

3 hours ago, The Cipher said:

It strikes me that our current situation is due as much to a lack of courage as anything else. So many people are scared of the virus despite its exceedingly low morality rate, and so many more are frightened of the vaccines despite their even lower mortality rates. When did we become a society of people frightened of a 99%+ survival rate in vaccinated populations, or the 99.9% survival rate of the vaccines themselves? Our leaders have neither the courage to truly reopen, nor the courage to mandate vaccination if that is indeed a tacit requirement for full reopening.

You're not thinking clearly. It may be that the survival rate is now 99%. But what do you think that survival rate would be if hospitals are overloaded and can't give proper treatment? What do you think the survival rate is for people who don't have access to the health care resources that you take for granted?

[placeholder]

4 hours ago, The Cipher said:

I shudder to write this to a normie audience but...I would handle it like a man. The same way I handle everything else in my life.

 

And if, despite my best efforts the outcome was unfavorable to me, I like to think I'd have the wisdom and composure to place my loss in the context of the wider interest of society. I've said this multiple times, but I'm comfortable with the nature of this game of life in which we are all participants. I am aware that this is an exceedingly rare outlook in today's society.

 

It strikes me that our current situation is due as much to a lack of courage as anything else. So many people are scared of the virus despite its exceedingly low morality rate, and so many more are frightened of the vaccines despite their even lower mortality rates. When did we become a society of people frightened of a 99%+ survival rate in vaccinated populations, or the 99.9% survival rate of the vaccines themselves? Our leaders have neither the courage to truly reopen, nor the courage to mandate vaccination if that is indeed a tacit requirement for full reopening.

 

This comment is aimed at nobody and no 'side' in particular. But I am deeply deeply disappointed about what the Covid crisis in general has revealed about so many of the people who inhabit this world with me.

I like to think that if I were in battle, I would behave bravely, too. But I don't know that since I'm not battle tested. You may believe that covid symptoms are something like the flu or similarly bearable, but they can be far worse and far more painful. Hospital ICUs have been filled with people who believed that they wouldn't need a vaccine or hospitalization to battle this disease. 

[papa al]

What about natural immunity after recovery from covid.

That is a lot stronger than "vaccine",

right?

[2long]

On 10/30/2021 at 1:02 PM, The Cipher said:

After having to register for my third vaccine passport in the last month (this time with gov-mandated authenticator app!) I have decided to go on a (probably ill advised) rant.

 

I'm a pro-vaxxer. I got vaccinated and generally encourage other people to do the same. But bluntly, I believe that it's every individual's choice to get or not get the vaccine. We need to just accept that and open up. Like, 100% open up. If they die, they die. If they pass it to a vulnerable person and the vulnerable person dies, they die. If they pass it to me and I die, I die. The ongoing disruption of normal life at this point is ridiculous. Like, it's legit insane.

 

On a percentage basis, Covid has always only killed very small amount of people. As we learned more about the disease, that rate declined. And as vaccines rolled out and continue to roll out across the world, that rate has declined further. At this point we are looking at rates well below 1% mortality in fully vaccinated persons. Please don't @ me with "bUt MiLliOnS oF pEopLe." If you want to say that, all you're really saying is that you don't understand percentages and you're bad at math (among other things).

 

At some point during the pandemic, society seems to have collectively decided that its overriding imperative was to prevent Covid cases at all costs. All other considerations be damned. As far as I'm aware that was never debated at any point, and the logic of the premises underpinning that idea never came under scrutiny. Most people aren't even aware that it's a values judgment rather than a fundamental truth or necessity (if you understand this, try and explain it someone and watch their brains contort in any attempt not to process. You might even see it in responses to this post). People were scared, and that made restrictions politically expedient. The result? This single minded obsession with minimizing case counts regardless of the proportionality of measures taken to that effect.

 

At this point we're still seeing panic of single digit deaths per day. In some parts of the world determined to stick to a zero Covid policy, we see mass restrictions over even a single new case. Like, are you serious? Does it not occur to people at any point how absolutely disproportionate measures are now to risk? Many countries (with vaccine saturaiton 70%+!) are still maintaining abnormal measures affecting day to day life, to say nothing of high barriers to international travel. It's unbelievable.

 

How much inconvenience are we going to have to endure before we just nut up and get on with it? Like, if you're a person who genuinely thinks Covid is still a big deal, what specific rate or number would be the threshold at which you would no longer feel that arduous measures were warranted? Have you even thought about it? Because I'm betting you haven't.

 

Ok rant over. I feel less frustrated now. As you were, lads. Carry on.

NOT a rant, but a well-written opinion of which I agree in total! ????????????????

[2long]

On 10/30/2021 at 2:16 PM, Stubby said:

Whatever camp you're in, I think everyone agrees that double-jabbed people who go on to catch COVID are just as infectious as the unjabbed. That's assuming you're up to date with the latest develoments.

Sorry but there's no way in Hell that 'everyone agrees... blah blah Covid'

[2long]

On 10/31/2021 at 8:01 AM, roo860 said:

Does it not come down to the number of tests they do in the UK compared to tests in Thailand?

I listen to UK radio all day every day and there are constant NHS-sponsored adverts telling pretty much everyone to get jabbed, AND to test themselves and report the tests TWICE A WEEK. Now if someone tests positive and then tests 4 more times during their 'positive period' wouldn't that multiply their single case by up to four times?

[2long]

On 10/31/2021 at 8:22 AM, The Cipher said:

Respectfully, I'm pretty sure it isn't me that's missing the point here.

 

Basically my point is that there is more than one viable path forward in dealing with the pandemic. And the optimal path isn't necessarily the one that minimizes deaths. That last sentence is uncomfortable for many people to accept but is critical to understanding the case I'm making.

 

I think people should get vaccinated too. I've said as much many times. But if they don't, I don't see any reason to continue holding up society for them (or anyone). The risk of Covid to the integrity our overall societies is miniscule at this point. At what level of risk or vaccine saturation would it be acceptable to drop all restrictions? This question needs to be answered to avoid an ever-moving target. "60% vaccination, no 70%, actually 80%, in fact - let's just keep restrictions in place until we've hunted down the last hermit and shoved a needle in their arm." If you understand the risk/reward tradeoff on a societal level, you will understand why I am so against continued restrictions despite being broadly supportive of vaccination.

 

Also - regarding the media, I'm not blaming the news for the problems that we're having so much as I am the general public's poor data comprehension skills (as evidenced by the fact that we are having this conversation). Think about it like this. Every night for almost two years now the news has been steady blasting case counts and death counts as numbers devoid of context. 100 new cases, 1000 new cases, one million total deaths. But what do those numbers actually mean? The context is critical. I'm going to repeat that. The context is critical.

 

I'll spare you a whole data science lesson, but basically - when it comes to populations that number in the billions and an event that happens over time, it's helpful to understand numbers by thinking in percentages and trends. Unfortunately this isn't something that gen pub really seems to understand, and our media orgs and politicians made absolutely no effort to aid in that understanding. I don't think there was any behind the scenes grand plan for this. I just think that it was simply in the interest of media businesses (record eyeballs) and politicians (perceived low death counts are a political opportunity and perceived high death counts are political suicide) to not take the difficult but more optimal path and explain the context of these numbers to the populations that they supposedly serve.

????????????????????????????????

The 'other side' think that rational thinkers are conspiracy theorists, and won't listen to or read things like you just pointed out.

[placeholder]

29 minutes ago, papa al said:

What about natural immunity after recovery from covid.

That is a lot stronger than "vaccine",

right?

Apparently not

CDC study: COVID vaccine stronger than natural immunity

 A new study from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) suggests that vaccines offer much stronger immunity to COVID-19 than natural immunity.

Researchers analyzed data from nearly 200 hospitals across the country, and concluded that COVID vaccines still offer better protection than a previous COVID infection. Specifically, the CDC report found that unvaccinated adults with previous COVID infection were 5.49 times more likely to be re-infected than fully vaccinated individuals with no previously documented infection.

https://www.wfla.com/community/health/coronavirus/cdc-study-covid-vaccine-stronger-than-natural-immunity/

[PoorSucker]

On 10/30/2021 at 6:54 AM, Longwood50 said:

So is this saying that if a vaccinated person does become infected with Covid they are 63% less likely of transmitting it to someone else?   That might make sense given that vaccinated people are suppose to have only a milder case of Covid. 

This article explains it.

https://wamu.org/story/21/10/12/breakthrough-infections-might-not-be-a-big-transmission-risk-heres-the-evidence/

[Longwood50]

1 hour ago, PoorSucker said:

This article explains it.

Thank You.  Very informative article.  Perhaps that is our ultimate savior in that not only do the vaccines help prevent a person from contacting covid, those getting covid have a reduced chance of the virus making them severely ill and now they have a reduced chance of infecting others. 

That would "seem" to indicate that if the majority of people are vaccinated they would have the reduced risk associated with getting a vaccine and with the majority vaccinated it would further reduce transmissions. 

[ChaiyaTH]

The abuse of truths whilst spinning the words and measures needed to take is incredible. Similar to governments using the word 'scientific' for so many things that are not. But the worst of them all are people who then claim all that is actual science and absolute truth. 

For example: the best available medical masks contribute to XYZ. Reality: people wearing dirty hand made useless masks for days in a row and claim the full benefits of the high grade medical masks and hide behind the word 'science'. That is even the most innocent example of what is going on.

Edited November 1, 2021 by ChaiyaTH