If I live in Thailand, do I have to file UK Self Assessment?

[persimmon]

On 12/9/2021 at 6:10 PM, Muhendis said:

 

I have heard that if you live in Thailand and notify HMRC , you don`t need to file self assessment , is that correct ?  If so , presumably income would not be subject to UK tax .

[topt]

2 hours ago, persimmon said:

I have heard that if you live in Thailand and notify HMRC , you don`t need to file self assessment , is that correct ?  If so , presumably income would not be subject to UK tax .

Depends on the rest of your "declared" return. If you consistently have no tax to pay then they may say that after a few years which others have reported on here.

 

To be in that situation any other UK income combined outside of tax free wrappers must be below the personal allowance/interest free allowance etc. Remember UK pension payments go towards the total income.

[Muhendis]

7 hours ago, topt said:

Depends on the rest of your "declared" return. If you consistently have no tax to pay then they may say that after a few years which others have reported on here.

 

To be in that situation any other UK income combined outside of tax free wrappers must be below the personal allowance/interest free allowance etc. Remember UK pension payments go towards the total income.

Quite so.

In addition you can write to HMRC and tell them your financial circumstances.

They will decide whether you're required to do your self assessment or not. 

[hotandsticky]

Your assumption is incorrect.

 

Many make the same mistake of thinking that you can emigrate to Thailand and you are exempt from UK tax  - you are not.

 

All income derived in the UK is subject to tax.

 

Then you have a personal tax allowance.

 

Tax is payable at the appropriate rate above that.

[brewsterbudgen]

I completed a self-assessment return for the first few years that I was living here, as I was renting out a property in London. Once I had sold it, HMRC said I no longer needed to. I still get the occasional refund as I pay tax on my UK savings. 

[lungbing]

As all my income is from pensions which are taxable at source in the UK,  HMRC kindly told me that so long as my circumstances do not change I no longer have to fill in a self-assessment return.

[The Hammer2021]

Yes you do if you have an income generated in the UK. Unless that income has tax deducted at source and you have cleared it with the IR. Failure to submit tax returns is a whopping 100 pounds a day fine

[Expat68]

If you have income that is not taxed at source, ie rental from house. Yes

[BritManToo]

On 12/10/2021 at 10:09 PM, persimmon said:

I have heard that if you live in Thailand and notify HMRC , you don`t need to file self assessment , is that correct ? 

Not correct,

I have a government 'gateway' account and can do all my tax and NI online.

Normally I just claimed tax refunds when my pension providers overpaid my tax.

All money earned in the UK is taxed in the UK.

 

So if you have no UK income, then you don't need to declare anything.

But most of us have pensions/investments/bank accounts based in the UK.

[chilly07]

On 12/11/2021 at 7:48 PM, lungbing said:

As all my income is from pensions which are taxable at source in the UK,  HMRC kindly told me that so long as my circumstances do not change I no longer have to fill in a self-assessment return.

Then you won't get the updated personal allowance or the transferred spouse allowance and you won't be able to check if you have paid the correct tax?

[DefaultName]

Whatever you do, if they ask you to fill in a Tax Return, do it, even if you have no UK income at all.  Serious cost - and possible investigation - if you don't.  Failing to file a Return and failure to pay tax are 2 separate offences and you can be guilty of the first even if you have no tax to pay.  It's fairly easy online unless you've complex finances and tells you instantly what you need to pay and why.

 

Me, I'm slightly shafted; income is State Pension + Government Pension, all taxed at source.  OK, no Tax Return, but no State Pension annual increases either.  ????

 

 

Just to add, if you're under retirement age, remember to look into National Insurance, do you have enough years in for a full pension?  If not, it may be worth keeping contributions going to ensure that.  All on the Gov.uk website.

[DefaultName]

5 minutes ago, chilly07 said:

Then you won't get the updated personal allowance or the transferred spouse allowance and you won't be able to check if you have paid the correct tax?

Not correct about the check, log into gov.uk and your tax records are all there, you can claim refunds with a click if any are due.  The site used to be a nightmare, but has got a lot better over the last few years.

[laislica]

Interesting, the double tax agreement, at least with Spain, states that income from pensions will be taxed in the country of residence. HMRC demanded self assessment from me knowing I was resident in Spain with income from pensions.

I ended up paying 4 years back tax plus interest and penalties to Spain. HMRC refuse to repay more than the tax they illegally took from me.

They spend more by staff writing emails etc than doing the right thing. This has dragged on almost 4 years so far

If the double tax agreement for Spain is pay where you are resident,  why not the same for Thailand?

Pity we're not the super rich, no tax to pay!

[topt]

5 hours ago, BritManToo said:

I have a government 'gateway' account and can do all my tax and NI online.

So you haven't told them you live abroad........or you file with commercial (paid for) software? 

 

For others benefit if no longer officially tax resident in the UK you are supposed to file SA109 as part of your return (even though it is more just box ticking) and this form is not available on the basic gov.uk online return.

So with other stuff I end up having to do a paper return.

But I am just being pig headed in not paying for software where it is to pay the govt. tax.......

[topt]

20 minutes ago, laislica said:

If the double tax agreement for Spain is pay where you are resident,  why not the same for Thailand?

Because the DTA's are country specific and depends what gets negotiated between them. Unfortunately, or otherwise, most (not all) pensions are excluded from the UK/Thai DTA.

[Yewbzee]

On 12/11/2021 at 8:31 AM, hotandsticky said:

All income derived in the UK is subject to tax.

 

 

Nope that's not correct for all types of income. For example dividends from UK resident companies and also Capital Gains are totally exempt if you are non resident for tax in the UK.

[Pdavies99]

On 12/11/2021 at 1:31 AM, hotandsticky said:

Your assumption is incorrect.

 

Many make the same mistake of thinking that you can emigrate to Thailand and you are exempt from UK tax  - you are not.

 

All income derived in the UK is subject to tax.

 

Then you have a personal tax allowance.

 

Tax is payable at the appropriate rate above that.

Having worked in this area, I can tell you that it is up to HMRC when they tell you that you no longer need to effect an annual assessment.  Could be after 1 year or longer.

 

It comes down to your employment status, property,  pension and income within the UK and income etc derived abroad, once they believe you are truthful they can state no further assessments are required subject to changes etc.

 

There is no hard and fast rule, but what I can tell you is that there are substantial fines etc for just not completing assessments that come back to bite you if you return to the UK or start a pension up.

 

Why not try and be honest?

[persimmon]

3 hours ago, Yewbzee said:

Nope that's not correct for all types of income. For example dividends from UK resident companies and also Capital Gains are totally exempt if you are non resident for tax in the UK.

That`s very interesting , thanks . It could be a huge bonus for those that would like to liquidate assets , but have been reluctant to do so because of CGT .

Inheritance tax is different though - much harder to avoid ( I`m not an expert , so just guessing ) .

[partington]

7 hours ago, Yewbzee said:

Nope that's not correct for all types of income. For example dividends from UK resident companies and also Capital Gains are totally exempt if you are non resident for tax in the UK.

This isn't the full story however.  You must stay out of the UK for at least 5 years or the capital gains tax on any disposals becomes chargeable again if you return within that time. Capital gains from UK property sales is liable to tax on non-residents.

 

It is true that dividend income from UK companies can be tax free, but if this option is taken you give up your personal allowance against other income.

 

So you have to determine which is more advantageous, to get the personal allowance against all income or to get dividend income tax-free.  HMRC will work out which incurs less tax for you if you submit a self assessment.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/non-residents-and-investment-income-hs300-self-assessment-helpsheet/hs300-non-residents-and-investment-income-2020

"With the exception of income from property in the UK and investment income connected to a trade in the UK through a permanent establishment, the tax charge for non-residents on investment income arising in the UK is restricted to the amount of tax, if any, deducted at source. If the tax charge is limited in this way, personal allowances will not be given against other income. This restriction does not apply in the overseas part of a split year."

[Chris.B]

9 hours ago, topt said:

So you haven't told them you live abroad........or you file with commercial (paid for) software? 

 

For others benefit if no longer officially tax resident in the UK you are supposed to file SA109 as part of your return (even though it is more just box ticking) and this form is not available on the basic gov.uk online return.

So with other stuff I end up having to do a paper return.

But I am just being pig headed in not paying for software where it is to pay the govt. tax.......

What software and how much is it?

[topt]

6 minutes ago, Chris.B said:

What software and how much is it?

On the gov.uk web site somewhere to do with filing returns is a list of companies and you go from there. Prices vary.

Quick search -

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/self-assessment-commercial-software-suppliers

[uksmdh]

On 12/14/2021 at 4:30 PM, topt said:

So you haven't told them you live abroad........or you file with commercial (paid for) software? 

 

For others benefit if no longer officially tax resident in the UK you are supposed to file SA109 as part of your return (even though it is more just box ticking) and this form is not available on the basic gov.uk online return.

So with other stuff I end up having to do a paper return.

But I am just being pig headed in not paying for software where it is to pay the govt. tax.......

123efiling, simple to fill in the forms with guides incorporated into the software and free to complete but £15 to submit.  I am unaffiliated but find it time saving and easy to use.

[Gabe H Coud]

Sorry but i have read this tread and im still a bit confused

My situation....

-Im looking to file self assessment via government gateway

-incidentally for the first time by myself(not with UK Accountant)

for the YE 05.04.21(online dealine 31.01.22)

-In that year i was fully non resident(for the first time, prior years was part non resident)

-therefore i dont qualify to file online any longer

-i already know that i dont need to pay tax as my income is less than 18,500(comfortably ) and im not old enough for state pension or taking any private pension

-If i don't file i assume i'll be fined and the fines will increase

what should i do? Should i tell the HMRC my circumstances or is that disadvantageous? should i file online as if i was resident? 

-Im sure others must be in same boat....

 

thanks in advance

Edited December 19, 2021 by Gabe H Coud
missing point

[Orinoco]

21 hours ago, Gabe H Coud said:

Sorry but i have read this tread and im still a bit confused

My situation....

-Im looking to file self assessment via government gateway

-incidentally for the first time by myself(not with UK Accountant)

for the YE 05.04.21(online dealine 31.01.22)

-In that year i was fully non resident(for the first time, prior years was part non resident)

-therefore i dont qualify to file online any longer

-i already know that i dont need to pay tax as my income is less than 18,500(comfortably ) and im not old enough for state pension or taking any private pension

-If i don't file i assume i'll be fined and the fines will increase

what should i do? Should i tell the HMRC my circumstances or is that disadvantageous? should i file online as if i was resident? 

-Im sure others must be in same boat....

 

thanks in advance

Where did you get the 18,500 from ?

Personal tax allowance is 12,570. 

 

Ps You may need to also look at uk residence test.

 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2021 by Orinoco

[Doctor Tom]

On 12/11/2021 at 7:48 PM, lungbing said:

As all my income is from pensions which are taxable at source in the UK,  HMRC kindly told me that so long as my circumstances do not change I no longer have to fill in a self-assessment return.

Lucky you, I am in the same position and I have to file every year. 

[Gabe H Coud]

1 hour ago, Orinoco said:

Where did you get the 18,500 from ?

Personal tax allowance is 12,570. 

 

Ps You may need to also look at uk residence test.

 

 

 

My UK Accountant refers to this figure specifically in e mails a couple of times

 

i have started looking into residence test, looks complicated....but thanks for heads up 

 

 

 

 

[Orinoco]

2 hours ago, Gabe H Coud said:

My UK Accountant refers to this figure specifically in e mails a couple of times

 

i have started looking into residence test, looks complicated....but thanks for heads up 

If your income is property income, you can file on line using third party software.you cant do Gatway for property income as non resident.

 

Ps, Or file via post with paper copy, but think it needs to be done by end of October for property income.

 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2021 by Orinoco

[Gabe H Coud]

1 hour ago, Orinoco said:

If your income is property income, you can file on line using third party software.you cant do Gatway for property income as non resident.

 

Ps, Or file via post with paper copy, but think it needs to be done by end of October for property income.

 

 

 

not property, interest on savings

 

end of October for non resident which i pointed out in OP(ie i no longer qualify for online filing 31.

01.22) 

so i already know now i will be fined for this year 

 

thanks

 

[topt]

8 hours ago, Gabe H Coud said:

not property, interest on savings

 

end of October for non resident which i pointed out in OP(ie i no longer qualify for online filing 31.

01.22) 

so i already know now i will be fined for this year 

 

thanks

 

Pay for a cheap online filing software (mentioned earlier) and avoid the fine?

 

As a generalisation I cannot understand why anybody would leave it so late to file when all the information is normally to hand by July latest....... 

[steve187]

On 12/19/2021 at 12:28 PM, Gabe H Coud said:

Sorry but i have read this tread and im still a bit confused

My situation....

-Im looking to file self assessment via government gateway

-incidentally for the first time by myself(not with UK Accountant)

for the YE 05.04.21(online dealine 31.01.22)

-In that year i was fully non resident(for the first time, prior years was part non resident)

-therefore i dont qualify to file online any longer

-i already know that i dont need to pay tax as my income is less than 18,500(comfortably ) and im not old enough for state pension or taking any private pension

-If i don't file i assume i'll be fined and the fines will increase

what should i do? Should i tell the HMRC my circumstances or is that disadvantageous? should i file online as if i was resident? 

-Im sure others must be in same boat....

 

thanks in advance

where do you get the 18,500 tax free figure from