Bangkok shophouse

[thaibook]

My wife owns a shophouse in Thanon Thetsaban Songkhro, Bang Sue, Bangkok some 500m from Wat Samian Nari and its eponymous MRT station (red line). It is a wide tree lined road (4 lanes) with pavements. The Bon Marche Market Park is 200m the other way. At the back is a tiled fenced in area about 3m wide and then another road allowing access from front and back. The building has four units; hers is an end one with a narrow strip of land (2m wide) between it and the next building. The unit is 4m wide and 16-17m long. It has a ground floor, a mezzanine, and three more floors.

 

We have to decide whether to sell it as is, to convert the upper floors to 6 studios, 2 per floor, and the ground floor for commercial use with the mezzanine as accommodation, or do the conversion work and then rent out the studios (at around 5,000 Baht/month) and either rent the commercial part or use it ourselves if we can think of a business.

 

Any indication of the price a shell or converted shophouse in this area and of the cost of conversion would be very welcome.

[Kwasaki]

If you can't sort it yourself then the best course is employed a local architect.

[thaibook]

7 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

If you can't sort it yourself then the best course is employed a local architect.

Thank you. Architects in Thailand may be different but generally they are good at designing buildings and interiors but not as good at advising on the economics of alternative uses for property.

[Kwasaki]

26 minutes ago, thaibook said:

Thank you. Architects in Thailand may be different but generally they are good at designing buildings and interiors but not as good at advising on the economics of alternative uses for property.

I have not found that to be the case maybe it is your experience of meeting with local area architect but not mine.

[marin]

On the SRT Red Line. Not the MRT. Too many lines now..????

[elgenon]

I have always toyed with the idea of converting a shophouse to a loft-type abode.

 

My stereotype of Thais is that they view real estate as a place to bank money. Not as keen on thinking about return on investment as Westerners. IMHO  I'm sure there are many exceptions.

[thaibook]

1 hour ago, marin said:

On the SRT Red Line. Not the MRT. Too many lines now..????

thank you for the correction.

[Antiparovian]

Simples. The value is whatever someone is prepared to pay for it. You won't know it's value until the cash is in your bank account.

[CH1961]

On 12/24/2021 at 11:49 AM, thaibook said:

either rent the commercial part or use it ourselves if we can think of a business.

If you have to have your property valued by bar stoole experts in a public forum, you shouldn't worry about running any business.

[csmith]

Have a look in the window of the local Estate Agents ….. and also search their websites.

[TheScience]

On 12/24/2021 at 11:49 AM, thaibook said:

around 5,000 Baht/month

I'm renting a really nice little apartment 650m from blue line MRT central Bangkok. Decent neighborhood. Back side lots of villas. The place has given up it's laundry service and the great cook left the restaurant but the building is solid. Clean...lifts. we even have a bit of a green view. It's 5800.

 

What you describe doesn't sound so appealing.

 

Feedback.

[thaibeachlovers]

Why is this in Farang Pub and not in Real Estate subforum?

[mrwebb8825]

Just a thought but, since your wife is obviously Thai (property owners must be) why not have her ask the other 3 owners what their places are worth? 1 of them may even be interested in buying her out or renting the whole thing. (is it paid for or is there a mortgage/lean on it)

Thoughts on your renovation ideas: How's the sewage, drainage (Bangkok floods - Google photos/street view for the last 15 yrs) and water pressure? (apartments need bathrooms) How old is the building? (wiring for 4/6 studios will pull lots of juice causing heat/fire issues) How about free access to all 3 floors independently? What's the zoning for that area? (business or residential or...)

Those places were designed for a family with a business (business and storage down with living quarters above) My wife and I ran a small language school out of ours before the 2011 flood took us (and 70% of the town) out. Cost us around 50k to set up and furnish. Reception and student lounge down with 2 classrooms up (after converting the bathrooms to male/female to comply with code for a school) Cost around 20k to operate and earned around 50k. It was just a supplement to my teacher's salary and opened for 4hrs per day after school and 8hrs per day on weekends. We even had T-Shirts. ???? Parents and students loved them and it was free advertising.

[thaibook]

15 hours ago, mrwebb8825 said:

Just a thought but, since your wife is obviously Thai (property owners must be) why not have her ask the other 3 owners what their places are worth? 1 of them may even be interested in buying her out or renting the whole thing. (is it paid for or is there a mortgage/lean on it)

Thoughts on your renovation ideas: How's the sewage, drainage (Bangkok floods - Google photos/street view for the last 15 yrs) and water pressure? (apartments need bathrooms) How old is the building? (wiring for 4/6 studios will pull lots of juice causing heat/fire issues) How about free access to all 3 floors independently? What's the zoning for that area? (business or residential or...)

Those places were designed for a family with a business (business and storage down with living quarters above) My wife and I ran a small language school out of ours before the 2011 flood took us (and 70% of the town) out. Cost us around 50k to set up and furnish. Reception and student lounge down with 2 classrooms up (after converting the bathrooms to male/female to comply with code for a school) Cost around 20k to operate and earned around 50k. It was just a supplement to my teacher's salary and opened for 4hrs per day after school and 8hrs per day on weekends. We even had T-Shirts. ???? Parents and students loved them and it was free advertising.

Thank you for the resonse.  You seem to have made good use of yours.  Your conversion was cheap and you managed to earn a respectable return.

 

The unit next to ours belongs to my wife's sister.  Once we have an idea of relative values we may ask if she woul dlike to buy ours or perhaps offer to buy hers if a larger unit makes it more viable.  The other two units belong to the man who built them.  He lives and works there running a design consultancy.  He does not seem keen on expanding.

 

The building is 10-20 years old.  I intend rewiring and changing the plumbing as we will have to add bathrooms if we convert it to rental units.  Access to the upper three floors wil not be through the graound floor commercial unit.

 

The other buildings in the street are commercial downstairs (Kerry, wide range of shops, restaurants, etc) and many with rental accommodation above.  It is a decent area with a TOPs supermarket within walking distance and villas with gardens (not a moo bahn) behind.

 

There are very few shell shop houses for sale in decent areas of Bangkok - at least I have not found any.  I saw a shop house converted into a single residence a couple of streets behind the main road with an asking price (before covid) of about 20 million.  I was thinking the shell might be worth 9-10 million and converted with 6 rental units upstairs, anywhere from 12-15 million.  Do these figures seem outrageous? 

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

To convert as you talk about would cost a lot, and as a landlord you/ your wife become responsible for all the problems that will ensue. Seems like spending a lot to have a life time of other people's problems.

 

I can only speak for myself, but I'd rather keep my money and enjoy my life. If I didn't want to use the building myself, I'd sell it and be done with the problems.

 

Is the OP sure that this isn't just the wife's daydream of making loadsacash, that will go the way that many such daydreams do, into lost money and regrets? I assume that it is the OP's money that she intends to use.

Of course, if she intends to use her own money, then one might assume that the OP could leave it up to her to do as she wishes with her own property.

[mrwebb8825]

7 hours ago, thaibook said:

Thank you for the resonse.  You seem to have made good use of yours.  Your conversion was cheap and you managed to earn a respectable return.

 

The unit next to ours belongs to my wife's sister.  Once we have an idea of relative values we may ask if she woul dlike to buy ours or perhaps offer to buy hers if a larger unit makes it more viable.  The other two units belong to the man who built them.  He lives and works there running a design consultancy.  He does not seem keen on expanding.

 

The building is 10-20 years old.  I intend rewiring and changing the plumbing as we will have to add bathrooms if we convert it to rental units.  Access to the upper three floors wil not be through the graound floor commercial unit.

 

The other buildings in the street are commercial downstairs (Kerry, wide range of shops, restaurants, etc) and many with rental accommodation above.  It is a decent area with a TOPs supermarket within walking distance and villas with gardens (not a moo bahn) behind.

 

There are very few shell shop houses for sale in decent areas of Bangkok - at least I have not found any.  I saw a shop house converted into a single residence a couple of streets behind the main road with an asking price (before covid) of about 20 million.  I was thinking the shell might be worth 9-10 million and converted with 6 rental units upstairs, anywhere from 12-15 million.  Do these figures seem outrageous? 

 

 

The most costly renovation will be upstairs drainage. Ours already had a 2nd floor bathroom so there was no issue there. (you didn't mention having a bathroom upstairs but it's a pretty standard design given the intended purpose) Additional plumbing and wiring is all installed on the wall as opposed to inside of it so no structure issues there. Interion walls are just cinder block placed on the floor. IF there are more than 1 window per floor you won't need to cut those in. Ours only had 1 window per floor, all facing the street. (wouldn't want to live in a jail cell ???? )

Our upstairs access was inside but there was a rear door accessible from the street that opened right to the stairway that could have been boxed off.

I've personally never seen a $10 million home in a $1 million neighborhood so your pricing is probably pretty close. IF you're going to sell then expand the query along the street to other shop owners in the area as those style neighborhoods were built by friends and business partners. Your wife and the person interested in buying can do all the paperwork themselves. (realtors are for villages and foreigners) Old fashion business Thais do things themselves so they don't have to share the wealth.

Another thing to consider is parking. 6 units can mean 10-12 bikes and 2-5 vehicles. Ours was on a 4-lane main street but had zero "extra" parking. If your future tenants start blocking business fronts it will be a cause of unwanted friction. You'll also want to think about garbage removal/storage as it will increase exponentially with tenants.

[thaibook]

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

To convert as you talk about would cost a lot, and as a landlord you/ your wife become responsible for all the problems that will ensue. Seems like spending a lot to have a life time of other people's problems.

 

I can only speak for myself, but I'd rather keep my money and enjoy my life. If I didn't want to use the building myself, I'd sell it and be done with the problems.

 

Is the OP sure that this isn't just the wife's daydream of making loadsacash, that will go the way that many such daydreams do, into lost money and regrets? I assume that it is the OP's money that she intends to use.

Of course, if she intends to use her own money, then one might assume that the OP could leave it up to her to do as she wishes with her own property.

Thank you for your perspective.  It is something we are considering.  My wife's original daydream when we were first married was to own/run a restaurant.  She did this in central London (South Kensington) for 10 years and was moderately successful but was exhausted by managing Thai staff in the UK - jealousies, chef going on holiday for a month but staying away for three of four, getting them to met health inspectors' norms, etc.  She is simply too gentle and kind.  

 

I am the one who does not like selling property and who had the idea of adding rental units.  Initially she was thinking of converting it into a house for us but having been unwell for some time now prefers somewhere quiet so we have bought an old condo in nice grounds on the outskirts of town.

[thaibook]

5 hours ago, mrwebb8825 said:

The most costly renovation will be upstairs drainage. Ours already had a 2nd floor bathroom so there was no issue there. (you didn't mention having a bathroom upstairs but it's a pretty standard design given the intended purpose) Additional plumbing and wiring is all installed on the wall as opposed to inside of it so no structure issues there. Interion walls are just cinder block placed on the floor. IF there are more than 1 window per floor you won't need to cut those in. Ours only had 1 window per floor, all facing the street. (wouldn't want to live in a jail cell ???? )

Our upstairs access was inside but there was a rear door accessible from the street that opened right to the stairway that could have been boxed off.

I've personally never seen a $10 million home in a $1 million neighborhood so your pricing is probably pretty close. IF you're going to sell then expand the query along the street to other shop owners in the area as those style neighborhoods were built by friends and business partners. Your wife and the person interested in buying can do all the paperwork themselves. (realtors are for villages and foreigners) Old fashion business Thais do things themselves so they don't have to share the wealth.

Another thing to consider is parking. 6 units can mean 10-12 bikes and 2-5 vehicles. Ours was on a 4-lane main street but had zero "extra" parking. If your future tenants start blocking business fronts it will be a cause of unwanted friction. You'll also want to think about garbage removal/storage as it will increase exponentially with tenants.

Thank you for the valuable insights.  Certainly parking for cars would be an issue and I had not thought of rubbish storage.  Luckily it has windows at both ends - one end wall is glass and the other, above the ground floor, has large windows.  As we have a 2m strip along one outer wall we can make windows there (legally) and are considering opening up onto the strip on the ground floor.  

 

Talking to the neighbours is a very good idea.  

[thaibeachlovers]

5 minutes ago, thaibook said:

Thank you for your perspective.  It is something we are considering.  My wife's original daydream when we were first married was to own/run a restaurant.  She did this in central London (South Kensington) for 10 years and was moderately successful but was exhausted by managing Thai staff in the UK - jealousies, chef going on holiday for a month but staying away for three of four, getting them to met health inspectors' norms, etc.  She is simply too gentle and kind.  

 

I am the one who does not like selling property and who had the idea of adding rental units.  Initially she was thinking of converting it into a house for us but having been unwell for some time now prefers somewhere quiet so we have bought an old condo in nice grounds on the outskirts of town.

Sorry to hear that your wife is not well, but do you really think you could navigate the murky waters of renting to Thais on your own?

IMO that is a definite reason NOT to do the rental thing.