More insurance firms face bankruptcy if COVID-19 insurance claims are not scrapped

[robblok]

Just now, rott said:

How many insurance companies have become insolvent and gone into liquidation through this problem.? 

No idea, why ask ?  I think there are a few. But they were just stupid calculated risks wrong and now they and their customers suffer. I don't care if they go bankrupt. But it wont help everyone. People will hurt. But so far they havent gone in liquidation.

 

Personally, i feel they should, because if some deal is made im sure they will come out better then when they go insolvent and more people hurt. When they go insolvent then at least you can be sure that every penny is squeezed out. If some deal is struck you never know how much it benefits the company.

[Mitkof Island]

Thailand Pass and mandatory Covid insurance sorry zero sympathy if the insurance companies fail. Along with the banks, and hospitals the biggest criminals the world has ever known.

[Adumbration]

Can anyone post a link to the companies that may go bankrupt.  I am about to renew my yearly car insurance with AXA but happy to jump ship if they are at risk of going bust when omicron explodes next february.

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

18 minutes ago, rott said:

"More insurance firms", how many are already insolvent through these Covid policies.? 

Asia Insurance 1950 PLC stopped issuing non-life insurance policies back in September under the direction of the OIC, laid off staff and was said to be cutting expenses so as to have more funds available for claims payments. I am not sure whether this action is attributable to Covid policies. Asia Insurance's license was not withdrawn at the time.

 

On December 15th, the OIC withdrew the license of The One Insurance and placed it under the non-life insurance fund's liquidation procedures. The One used to be known as Assets Insurance back in the day.

 

I heard a bit ago that there were initially 16 Thai insurers that petitioned the OIC for relief from their Covid policy obligations or that there were 16 with threateningly large Covid payments looming.  I am not sure how accurate this was then or if the number has grown in the meantime. I don't have the names.

[John Drake]

25 minutes ago, robblok said:

In those boiler room they sell fake stuff and everyone is in on it. Small groups. Not huge companies where the person responsible for policy and setting the price probably never seen the people who sell the policies.

Enron.

[tomazbodner]

9 minutes ago, Mitkof Island said:

Thailand Pass and mandatory Covid insurance sorry zero sympathy if the insurance companies fail. Along with the banks, and hospitals the biggest criminals the world has ever known.

I have no sympathy for the insurance companies' owners and management. But I do care about what would happen with all their clients if they fold.

 

The part about banks, and especially hospitals, and what would happen to majority of folks here if they were all to fold, is not even worth a response...

[robblok]

1 minute ago, John Drake said:

Enron.

????

 

You do understand that that is an example of management high up hiding stuff. 

 

Also this is not a boiler room scam. This is just accounting fraud. If you don't know the difference between the two what am it do.

 

Boilerroom is people selling <deleted> policies that are worthless and they know it. They care calling people to sell these <deleted> things and make commission and money.  (like what you accuse the assurance agents from)

 

In Enron its case the higher management faked the books, the ones who would benefit form this were a few fat cats that knew this. This has nothing to do with boiler room fraud. It was not a huge group of people who knew this. The employees had no idea nor did the rest of the world. Just a few select people knew about this. Is something totally different.

 

You keep showing ignorance and keep digging a deeper hole.  Please you don't even know the difference.

[Dogmatix]

Let market forces prevail. They greedily promoted COVID insurance without having the reserves to cover claims themselves and without offsetting the risks through re-insurance. They sold insurance without taking out insurance against going bust.  Serves them righ. 

[John Drake]

1 minute ago, robblok said:

????

 

You do understand that that is an example of management high up hiding stuff. 

 

Also this is not a boiler room scam. This is just accounting fraud. If you don't know the difference between the two what am it do.

 

Boilerroom is people selling <deleted> policies that are worthless and they know it. They care calling people to sell these <deleted> things and make commission and money.  (like what you accuse the assurance agents from)

 

In Enron its case the higher management faked the books, the ones who would benefit form this were a few fat cats that knew this. This has nothing to do with boiler room fraud. It was not a huge group of people who knew this. The employees had no idea nor did the rest of the world. Just a few select people knew about this. Is something totally different.

 

You keep showing ignorance and keep digging a deeper hole.  Please you don't even know the difference.

You said people can't be liable because "the company" is at fault and is publicly owned. Enron was publicly owned. People went to jail. BTW so did people in their accounting firm, Arthur Andersen, which itself was convicted and shut down. I'm glad you don't do accounts for me. Sorry for your customers.

[CM Dad]

Are these the same companies that refuse to insure those over the age of seventy?  Som Nahm Nah!

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

34 minutes ago, Mitkof Island said:

Thailand Pass and mandatory Covid insurance sorry zero sympathy if the insurance companies fail. Along with the banks, and hospitals the biggest criminals the world has ever known.

It isn't the mandatory Covid policies sold to tourists and returning expats that is at the center of the problem. It is the personal accident policies that paid a cash benefit on testing positive for Covid that were purchased in the millions by Thais that is causing this crisis.

[BritManToo]

2 minutes ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

It isn't the mandatory Covid policies sold to tourists and returning expats that is at the center of the problem. It is the personal accident policies that paid a cash benefit on testing positive for Covid that were purchased in the millions by Thais that is causing this crisis.

If they can't pay them, they shouldn't have sold them.

ZERO sympathy, they should go out of business.

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, John Drake said:

You said people can't be liable because "the company" is at fault and is publicly owned. Enron was publicly owned. People went to jail. BTW so did people in their accounting firm, Arthur Andersen, which itself was convicted and shut down. I'm glad you don't do accounts for me. Sorry for your customers.

I said that people can't be held liable when they act in good faith. Fraud is certainly not good faith. These guy went to jail and justly so they hurt a lot of people.

 

I am glad I don't do your accounts as you seem someone of such low intelligence it will be too hard to handle for me.

 

In this case these people benefitted and on purpose defrauded people.

 

Now can you tell me how these insurance companies benefitted and defrauded people ? Can you show me the profit they made and how it went to people.

 

We are talking about a company who made a mistake in assessing risks and are now going to lose everything (and they should). They did not defraud people on purpose. Unless you think they want their company and income to be destroyed on purpose.

 

They took on too much risk and it backfired, they have losses nobody took money out of this company to benefit personally. The people working selling the policies did not know the company could not pay out and were earning a normal wage. There were no high bonuses, no monies stolen, no people on purpose lied too. 

 

 

[John Drake]

2 minutes ago, robblok said:

I said that people can't be held liable when they act in good faith. Fraud is certainly not good faith. These guy went to jail and justly so they hurt a lot of people.

 

I am glad I don't do your accounts as you seem someone of such low intelligence it will be too hard to handle for me.

 

In this case these people benefitted and on purpose defrauded people.

 

Now can you tell me how these insurance companies benefitted and defrauded people ? Can you show me the profit they made and how it went to people.

 

We are talking about a company who made a mistake in assessing risks and are now going to lose everything (and they should). They did not defraud people on purpose. Unless you think they want their company and income to be destroyed on purpose.

 

They took on too much risk and it backfired, they have losses nobody took money out of this company to benefit personally. The people working selling the policies did not know the company could not pay out and were earning a normal wage. There were no high bonuses, no monies stolen, no people on purpose lied too. 

 

 

I agreeatize with your somnambulations and offer my most appropriatist exsanguinations. You pedestalize the extenuative of the superlative encounteristics.

[robblok]

@John Drake

 

Mabye you would understand an other example better. 

 

Suppose i got a construction company and i calculate the cost of a project wrong. Lets say a few of these projects i was an idiot and calculated it too cheaply. 

 

The people paid me and i start building and i find out that the materials i thought were only 10k are 100k. Now I cant finish the projects as its too expensive. I used all my money that i have in my company to still try to build it but there is just no more money and I have not benefitted privately (did not take a huge wage did not steal from the company). 

 

Now if its limited (form of company)  that means once the company gets liquidated all its assets are sold off. I have nothing anymore and maybe will be held privately liable (if proven it was fraud on purpose). Otherwise, once my company is liquidated its done. 

 

I lose my clients lose everyone loses. Nobody wins. That is not boiler room or Enron where it was done on purpose. The same goes for these insurance companies. They made a calculation error and now lose it all (their own fault). But they certainly did not benefit from it or set to defraud people. If that was the case they would have taken the money and run.

 

Maybe that makes things more clear for you in a way you understand.

 

Its all about intent and if someone benefits from it or not. That is certainly not the case for the insurance companies. Companies go broke people lose their jobs, and the consumers can't be paid. 

 

I ask you again how did those insurance companies benefit from all of this ?

 

 

[daveAustin]

More insurance firms face bankruptcy if COVID-19 insurance claims are not scrapped

 

Are you kidding me! Scrap the claims? So continue ‘insuring’ people but scrap the claiming part of it? ????

[berrec]

Hey, Insurance companies, welcome to reality.

 

Thailand's restaurants, small and large businesses, bars, pub, and individuals all went bust during COVID.

 

They got little or no recourse from the government.

 

So suck it up, if you go belly-up it's a weeding out process of the weak. 

 

You gambled on COVID and you lost; just think of all the restrictions the Thai government put on Farangs and what dud Thai insurance company polices we had to acquire.

 

[bradiston]

As with bookmakers, aren't the bets (aka policies) all laid off?

[berrec]

Point in case, insurance companies gamble on their polices and mitigate risk (see below no one over 75) by using the services of an actuary for the analysis of the measurement and management of risk and uncertainty.

 

Guess these Thai insurance companies on verge of going under because of COVID payouts had crappy actuaries or advice, or were too miserable to use one.

 

 

Thai Insurance companies actuary!

 

[NoshowJones]

2 hours ago, robblok said:

Of course they deserve payout, however these insurances will go bust so people will hurt. You don't really seem to get that. Consumers will be hurt. So the question is how to spread the pain best. You totally misunderstand my posts. I guess you don't want to understand.

I understand your posts Rob and I think you are right, but if someone is forced by the government to get insurance for anything and the company goes bust, then the government should take some sort of financial responsibility for it.

[Sheryl]

3 hours ago, PremiumLane said:

Another case that highlights the need for universal healthcare. With everyone paying into it each month though a small tax. It isn't rocket science, but I guess it doesn't benefit shareholders

Thailand has universal health care (for its citizens).

 

Health care costs were not the impetus for people to take out these policies, rather it was other things like loss of income while forcibly hospitalized/quarantined.  That and indeed a "get rich quick" temptation since the pay out was so high -- very few Thais  would sustain loss of 100,000 baht from 14 days (or even a full month)  off work.

 

[tomazbodner]

1 minute ago, possum1931 said:

I understand your posts Rob and I think you are right, but if someone is forced by the government to get insurance for anything and the company goes bust, then the government should take some sort of financial responsibility for it.

I was trying to point in same direction. Insurance companies falter or not, that's beside the point. There needs to be cover for those insured by those companies, and you can't just blame those people and tell them to eat it. I am sure many members here would also wish to know what happens if the bank that their 800k is in fails. Will they be told to eat it and get another 800k to put in another bank?

 

This is not about insurance agencies or banks or hospitals as one poster earlier called biggest crooks. This is about their customers, what happens to them. There needs to be some cover for those.

 

Imagine you bought insurance that covered you say 2 million baht. You had health emergency that got you in hospital for months and costs rise to just shy of 2 million baht. Last day, hospital tells you your insurance company folded - you are not allowed to leave until you pay that bill out of your own pocket. How is that fair to you? If that was some fly by night insurance company, your fault. But if this was a large, reputable firm, you reasonably expected to get covered and company lasting longer than yourself. Like if you were paying up for your pension, and you're told all you paid is gone and so is company.

 

Can at least pensioners here consider what would happen if all their income suddenly stopped as where they got it from folded?

 

Are you still calling for insurance agencies to go bust without any cover for those affected?

[lapamita]

on the stockexchange in thaland ( set subsector .insur), the companys report solid earnings and solid dividends , even q3 profits heavily:

 

AND INSURANES IN THAI; they take re insurances from re-insurer to cover the policys

 

ohhh yes bancupt...they are far away from that

Edited December 31, 2021 by lapamita

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

If they can't pay them, they shouldn't have sold them.

ZERO sympathy, they should go out of business.

That's right.

 

The insurers made the decision to market these policies without properly assessing or understanding the risks involved. They were extremely negligent in this regard and indeed bankruptcy is looming for some of them and is appropriate. The trick is to minimize the impact on the public in the face of their inability to pay claims. The OIC and the government have some work to do.

[rott]

2 hours ago, robblok said:

No idea, why ask ?  I think there are a few. But they were just stupid calculated risks wrong and now they and their customers suffer. I don't care if they go bankrupt. But it wont help everyone. People will hurt. But so far they havent gone in liquidation.

 

Personally, i feel they should, because if some deal is made im sure they will come out better then when they go insolvent and more people hurt. When they go insolvent then at least you can be sure that every penny is squeezed out. If some deal is struck you never know how much it benefits the company.

I ask because the heading states

"More insurance firms face bankruptcy", I was unaware that any had and you seem to be the man with his finger on the pulse. 

[robblok]

27 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

I understand your posts Rob and I think you are right, but if someone is forced by the government to get insurance for anything and the company goes bust, then the government should take some sort of financial responsibility for it.

Of course in normal countries governments have responsibilities. I don't see this happening in Thailand.  But i totally agree if a government makes something mandatory that they should support claims.

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, rott said:

I ask because the heading states

"More insurance firms face bankruptcy", I was unaware that any had and you seem to be the man with his finger on the pulse. 

I wish, its just that i remember the previous articles. I did not check who or what companies. But there were a few. I am not affected. I was just pointing out that its all nice to cheer for insurance companies to go under. But it hurts others. 

[robblok]

25 minutes ago, tomazbodner said:

I was trying to point in same direction. Insurance companies falter or not, that's beside the point. There needs to be cover for those insured by those companies, and you can't just blame those people and tell them to eat it. I am sure many members here would also wish to know what happens if the bank that their 800k is in fails. Will they be told to eat it and get another 800k to put in another bank?

 

This is not about insurance agencies or banks or hospitals as one poster earlier called biggest crooks. This is about their customers, what happens to them. There needs to be some cover for those.

 

Imagine you bought insurance that covered you say 2 million baht. You had health emergency that got you in hospital for months and costs rise to just shy of 2 million baht. Last day, hospital tells you your insurance company folded - you are not allowed to leave until you pay that bill out of your own pocket. How is that fair to you? If that was some fly by night insurance company, your fault. But if this was a large, reputable firm, you reasonably expected to get covered and company lasting longer than yourself. Like if you were paying up for your pension, and you're told all you paid is gone and so is company.

 

Can at least pensioners here consider what would happen if all their income suddenly stopped as where they got it from folded?

 

Are you still calling for insurance agencies to go bust without any cover for those affected?

For the 800k there is a Thai banking guarantee by the government up to 1 million per bank per person i believe (not per account) so if you have a lot of money it stands to reason to spread it over different banks. 

[robblok]

17 minutes ago, lapamita said:

on the stockexchange in thaland ( set subsector .insur), the companys report solid earnings and solid dividends , even q3 profits heavily:

 

AND INSURANES IN THAI; they take re insurances from re-insurer to cover the policys

 

ohhh yes bancupt...they are far away from that

I think it depends on what insurer. I suspect a lot of them are now moaning because they see profits go away and huge losses. They want to prevent the losses. They can cover them (most of them i think).

 

That is why i mentioned a few times i think that going bankrupt is better then allowing them not to honour stuff. I think if they do that consumers will be the ones that take a bigger blow as im sure the companies will then make sure its more favorable for them.

[robblok]

32 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Thailand has universal health care (for its citizens).

 

Health care costs were not the impetus for people to take out these policies, rather it was other things like loss of income while forcibly hospitalized/quarantined.  That and indeed a "get rich quick" temptation since the pay out was so high -- very few Thais  would sustain loss of 100,000 baht from 14 days (or even a full month)  off work.

 

Yes a lot of people don't seem to understand that these policies were a big win for those who got covid. The payout exceeded their cost (in general). We are not talking about policies that just cover the real healthcare costs.