ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[Gweiloman]

21 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Being able to accelerate from 0 to 100 kmh is a capability that gives some indication of what else the car can do.

 

Using full power accelerating away from a standstill is completely different from using full power at 80 km an hour to overtake. In this latter situation, you could probably use a lot more power without any risk or it appearing overdramatic.

 

Drivers like power, it’s not a theory, it’s a fact.
 

Manufacturers are just catering to what the public want.

Correct. A lot of the roads I drive on are single lanes with bends. Being able to overtake quickly at lower speeds are much safer when one has a vehicle with instant torque and not needing to wait for the car to “downshift”.

[KhunLA]

11 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

Correct. A lot of the roads I drive on are single lanes with bends. Being able to overtake quickly at lower speeds are much safer when one has a vehicle with instant torque and not needing to wait for the car to “downshift”.

Agree with the consensus, more power is good.  Even the MG ZS EV, far from a performance car (@ 8+ secs to 100 kph), passes safer & quickly, with the instant hp & torque.  And I drive in 'ECO' mode 

 

ZS EV vs ICEV, 8+ secs vs 12+ secs makes a huge difference when passing.  Again, more the instant hp & torque.  None of that hp @ XXXX rpm BS.  As noted, on smaller roads, it frees up congestion of tailgaters, which forces drivers to pass 2 or 3 vehicles at time, creating a hazard.

 

Actually makes taking smaller roads, faster if running parallel to main roads, and frees up congesting on the main roads.   Also makes for a more scenic and pleasurable drive.

[Lacessit]

An interesting read from an Australian publication:

 

https://www.thenewdaily.com.au/life/auto/2024/12/15/ev-batteries-new-research?

[KhunLA]

BEV ... range range range ... best answer

 

 

[Pib]

 

@KhunLA

If I remember right you have a MG ZS EV.  If so from looking at it's charging curve from 89% to 100% it has a low and rapidly decreasing charging rate to 100%.  By the time it gets to 95% it down to a 11KW rate and then to 6KW just before reaching 100%.  That is not quick.   Now my Atto has a has a charge rate of 32KW from 85% to 99% and the final 1% is at 16KW.

 

 

MG ZS EV Charging Curve

https://evkx.net/models/mg/zs/zs_ev_standard_range/chargingcurve/

 

[KhunLA]

4 hours ago, Pib said:

 

@KhunLA

If I remember right you have a MG ZS EV.  If so from looking at it's charging curve from 89% to 100% it has a low and rapidly decreasing charging rate to 100%.  By the time it gets to 95% it down to a 11KW rate and then to 6KW just before reaching 100%.  That is not quick.   Now my Atto has a has a charge rate of 32KW from 85% to 99% and the final 1% is at 16KW.

 

 

MG ZS EV Charging Curve

https://evkx.net/models/mg/zs/zs_ev_standard_range/chargingcurve/

 

That's not our experience.  Their range chart is way off also.

 

When we can do 90 kph, rare, but 2 stretches, we can do it consistently, PKK - Pranburi & Pkk - Chumphon.

 

We average about 14kWh/100kms +/-, nothing like 18kWh/100kms

 

[Andrew Dwyer]

11 hours ago, Pib said:

 

@KhunLA

If I remember right you have a MG ZS EV.  If so from looking at it's charging curve from 89% to 100% it has a low and rapidly decreasing charging rate to 100%.  By the time it gets to 95% it down to a 11KW rate and then to 6KW just before reaching 100%.  That is not quick.   Now my Atto has a has a charge rate of 32KW from 85% to 99% and the final 1% is at 16KW.

 

 

MG ZS EV Charging Curve

https://evkx.net/models/mg/zs/zs_ev_standard_range/chargingcurve/

 

That’s a great site right there, some useful information, but i would hasten to say it can’t be taken as verboten !!

 

For example my Seal doesn’t react how stated on the chart, it stays at the same kw level ( depending upon charger speed ) usually 44 kw right up until 99% then drops down gradually 10kw at a time over around 1 minute with a message that the battery is conditioning ( or something like that, i don’t remember exactly )

 

 

 

 

 

[KhunLA]

2 hours ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

That’s a great site right there, some useful information, but i would hasten to say it can’t be taken as verboten !!

 

For example my Seal doesn’t react how stated on the chart, it stays at the same kw level ( depending upon charger speed ) usually 44 kw right up until 99% then drops down gradually 10kw at a time over around 1 minute with a message that the battery is conditioning ( or something like that, i don’t remember exactly )

 

 

 

 

 

I did an 'unscientific' test of kWh per minute, and simply timed the % upticks by minute, and very consistent, up to 90+%, then at ~95%, drops off significantly.   The ZS agreeing as the estimated finish time keeps moving, longer.

 

That last 5% can take 15-20 minutes.  We are also sitting in the car with the AC on, at the finishing up point.  AC is usually on the whole time at CS, as wife, dog and or myself are in the car almost all the time.  Rare the AC is every off, and only if using PEA and there's a provided AC sitting area.

 

I am surprised the site is so far off, on the kWh / 100 kms rating.   As rarely do we exceed 14kWh / 100 kms.  Even @ 14, that's 330 kms range per charge, using 46.3kWh as useable capacity, and exceeds WLTP's 320 rating.  That's highway speeds, 90 kph when possible.  110 ish when allowed, and balanced by stopping for cross traffic and slow traffic.   On longer journeys, if we average 80 kph, over 3+ hrs, then we're happy.

[Pib]

2 hours ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

That’s a great site right there, some useful information, but i would hasten to say it can’t be taken as verboten !!

 

For example my Seal doesn’t react how stated on the chart, it stays at the same kw level ( depending upon charger speed ) usually 44 kw right up until 99% then drops down gradually 10kw at a time over around 1 minute with a message that the battery is conditioning ( or something like that, i don’t remember exactly )

 

 

 

 

 

 

Do you have a Seal RWD which is the charging curve chart you include in your post above?   Or, do you have a Seal AWD which has a different charging curve as shown below?    And notice the chart below shows a 45-46KW charging rate up to 98%  like you are showing almost the same at 44kW at 99%....so, that's why I'm asking if maybe you have a Seal AWD.

 

Additionally, from my experience of using the ReverSharger DC chargers over 5 dozen times since early August in getting free electrons and using OBD2 data which shows charging percentage to a tenth of a percent once reaching 98.5% per OBD2 data readout which will be a 99% readout on your EV's display the vehicle charging curve can deviate quite a bit from charge to charge.  In fact if you started the current DC charge from a higher SoC say over 90% then when you get to around 98% display on the vehicle it can jump right to 100% because the charging percentage indicator gets confused/recalibrates itself...I've notice this several times on my Atto at the ReverSharger because If I drive by one that has an open slot I will pull-in an top-up...even if my SoC is at 90% or a little more....get those free electrons whenever I can without queuing.

 

Yea, the charging rate during the last couple of percent can appear quite a bit different than the last time you charged depending on SoC starting from, temperature of battery, SoC percent indicator getting confused, etc.   But unless there has been an OTA update changing the battery's BMS charging curve the rest of the curve should follow pretty close "assuming" the charger you are using can provide whatever amount of KW is being requested by the EV.  But if at a charger that can't provide the power level being requested then of course the curve wouldn't match....the curves shown at that website is based on using high power DC chargers that can provide whatever amount the EV requests.  

 

Charging Curve for Seal AWD

https://evkx.net/models/byd/seal/seal_awd/chargingcurve/

[Pib]

8 hours ago, KhunLA said:

That's not our experience.  Their range chart is way off also.

 

When we can do 90 kph, rare, but 2 stretches, we can do it consistently, PKK - Pranburi & Pkk - Chumphon.

 

We average about 14kWh/100kms +/-, nothing like 18kWh/100kms

 

 

My post/chart was talking "charging rate"; not range.  And you did say in earlier posts that your MG ZS EV charged very slowly at a higher SoC.

 

And regarding range estimates that website does its range tests under specific, controlled, repeatable conditions which us humans driving on real life roads can not duplicate as everybody's driving area, habits, conditions, etc., vary quite a bit.

 

[Andrew Dwyer]

35 minutes ago, Pib said:

Do you have a Seal RWD which is the charging curve chart you include in your post above? 

Yes.

 

 

[Pib]

8 minutes ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

Yes.

 

 

Then maybe an OTA update has made the RWD BMS and AWD BMS same-same.

[KhunLA]

49 minutes ago, Pib said:

 

My post/chart was talking "charging rate"; not range.  And you did say in earlier posts that your MG ZS EV charged very slowly at a higher SoC.

 

And regarding range estimates that website does its range tests under specific, controlled, repeatable conditions which us humans driving on real life roads can not duplicate as everybody's driving area, habits, conditions, etc., vary quite a bit.

 

Notice the charts charging start level is way below where we start.  Usually ~30% +/- 5%, and usually on the + side of 30%.

 

3+ hours on first leg, hopefully, and ~250 ish kms.  Usually with a 70-100 kms reserve at that point.

 

We usually charge in the 30% - 90/95% when O&A.

 

There chart seem to be starting at 10% ... 

We're rare if ever below 20% when O&A, (once), and only near 10% when doing an equalization.  

 

[Pib]

After having my Atto with 60.5KWH battery now for almost 14 months/28,000km one thing has been obvious to me that during cooler weather I get approx 10% better range.  We are now in the cooler part of the Thailand seasons and I've already seen this range increase just like I saw 14 months ago when first got my Atto in late Oct 2023 just before the cool season began.  Having now driven the car over a full year I have experienced all the seasons...the varying temperature and humidity throughout a whole year.

 

Why approx 10% better range in cooler weather you may ask?  Well, it not due to the traction battery retaining less juice in hot weather/summer weather as a traction battery typically can add a few percent more more KWH around 40C than at it's 25C factory rated power.  But it's because of the electric A/C usage. 

 

The "electric-power" A/C compressor doesn't have to work as hard/use as much juice in cooler weather to keep your EV cool as compared to hot weather like in the summer.    Monitoring precise OBD2 data and just watching the KW usage on the EV's display during the summer months and if the car has been setting in an unshaded parking location when you first start the EV they electric A/C is going to pull a LOT more KW than after 15 minutes or so when it's been able to cool down the cabin.   But even after it has initially cooled down during hot weather it still takes more KW to keep the cabin cool as you drive along as the sun beats thru your tinted windows. 

 

I've seen my Atto whose A/C I set at 22C pull up to 4KW in hot weather when starting the EV after it's been setting in a mall parking lot with no shade....just a HOT car cabin.   After after starting the EV and driving off it can be 15 minutes or more before the electric A/C is now pulling only around 2-3KW at EV at idle like at a stop light.   

 

Now during the cool part of they year initialing cooling off a hot car cabin and keeping it cool while you drive takes a very significant less amount of electric A/C power.    Heck, in cooler weather you can actually be at idle with A/C at 22C and you EV display can show 0 (zero) Kw usage but since on BYD models the Kw displayed rounds "down" to the whole number you could really be pulling 0.99Kw per OBD2 readout but the BYD would display 0KW....can kinda deceive a person.  You could be displaying 1Kw but actually be pulling 1.99Kw (almost double for what the display shows)....displaying 2Kw but could be pulling up to 2.99Kw....etc.  

 

During the cooler part of the year I can easily achieve 420Km real world driving range, which is the Atto's WLTP rating, and even up to around 442Kw real world range if not driving above 90KmH and not in stop-and-go city traffic....just driving very economically.  But come the "hot, high humidity"  time of the year I only get around 390-400Km real world range no matter how easy...how economically I drive.

 

[JBChiangRai]

On holiday over Xmas in Phu Quoc.

 

We took 2 grab taxis,  Toyota Veloz out 20km and a Mitsubishi Xpander back to the hotel.

 

The Toyota was a noisy piece of crap with horrible plastics, the Mitsubishi was quieter and more spacious but still a massively inferior option to any BYD model.

 

The Japanese are a generation behind the Chinese in all variants, ICE or EV.

[Gweiloman]

19 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

On holiday over Xmas in Phu Quoc.

 

We took 2 grab taxis,  Toyota Veloz out 20km and a Mitsubishi Xpander back to the hotel.

 

The Toyota was a noisy piece of crap with horrible plastics, the Mitsubishi was quieter and more spacious but still a massively inferior option to any BYD model.

 

The Japanese are a generation behind the Chinese in all variants, ICE or EV.

Currently on holiday in China. Every taxi we took was an EV, smooth, quiet, comfortable. I won’t be surprised if some Japanese legacy automakers will be going out of business soon.

[vinny41]

59 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

Currently on holiday in China. Every taxi we took was an EV, smooth, quiet, comfortable. I won’t be surprised if some Japanese legacy automakers will be going out of business soon.

Its more likely that an EV automaker will fold before any of the Japanese legacy automakers

If you look at numbers the lion's share of the market is still for ICE vehicles

[JBChiangRai]

2 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Its more likely that an EV automaker will fold before any of the Japanese legacy automakers

If you look at numbers the lion's share of the market is still for ICE vehicles

That’s very true but the ICE market is shrinking and legacy manufacturers are very sensitive to making a loss with just a very small change in market share.

 

Take Nissan, Honda and Mitsubishi for example, they are all struggling and the proposed merger of Honda and Nissan will end in tears. I agree with Carlos Ghosn, they don’t have any synergy for a merger, they have similar vehicles in the same spaces and both of them are way behind on electrification of their product range.

 

it is Japanese legacy auto makers own fault because they have sleepwalked into this problem, believing Akio Toyoda, that EV’s wouldn’t take off.

 

I am reminded of Kodak who didn’t believe digital cameras would go anywhere.

[KhunLA]

56 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Its more likely that an EV automaker will fold before any of the Japanese legacy automakers

If you look at numbers the lion's share of the market is still for ICE vehicles

For now, but people won't remain ignorant forever.  When they ride in the neighbors, or family members BEV, and think ... "damn, this is nice, smooth, quiet & performs, better then my POS".   Then actually has a conversation with a BEV owner, someone they actually know & respect, realizing how much money they save a year (location dependent), not buying petrol.  40+k baht a year, for us, if our 20k kms were all local.  50+k if you also happen to have solar.

 

Then shift to BEV will be swift, and legacy auto makers for personal transport, will be a thing of the past.  Sooner better than later, hopefully.

[Gweiloman]

54 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Its more likely that an EV automaker will fold before any of the Japanese legacy automakers

If you look at numbers the lion's share of the market is still for ICE vehicles

There are over a hundred EV makers in China alone and just a handful of Japanese legacy automakers. The latter has been in business for decades so obviously they will not collapse overnight. But you are missing the point. EVs are going to be taking over from ICEVs. This is inevitable. Of course EVs will not comprise 100% of the auto market because there are certain scenarios that render them less efficient. But I believe that even in my lifetime, EVs will be the preferred choice for most normal car owners.

 

China roads are a delight. Quiet, practically no visible tailpipe pollution. In a week, I only ever noticed one diesel vehicle emitting some fumes and this was in a rural area.

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

For now, but people won't remain ignorant forever.  When they ride in the neighbors, or family members BEV, and think ... "damn, this is nice, smooth, quiet & performs, better then my POS".   Then actually has a conversation with a BEV owner, someone they actually know & respect, realizing how much money they save a year (location dependent), not buying petrol.  40+k baht a year, for us, if our 20k kms were all local.  50+k if you also happen to have solar.

 

Then shift to BEV will be swift, and legacy auto makers for personal transport, will be a thing of the past.  Sooner better than later, hopefully.

If I remember correctly you paid B932K for you MG ZS EV 2 years ago in 2022 and your car is now worth 

B450k-B500K approx so you car has devalued between B482-B432K

if we take the B482K reduction in value it will take 12 years to recuperate your  existing deprecation to date with petrol savings of B40K per year

Here the story of a small business owner that wishes he could turn back time

BYD is very cruel to SMEs like us...

Allow me to tell this story in case it is an example to those who are thinking of buying an electric vehicle, especially those who do small businesses like me.

At the end of last September, the van I used to deliver was damaged beyond repair. At that time, I was very stressful. Because the car is like the heart of the business, we had to find a new one to use. At that time I think that electric cars could save energy cost and long-term maintenance.

I choose BYD T3 because I think I want to support a clean energy car. I have seen it as a service car for many places. It looks reliable. But when I asked the price and the seller, I got the answer that it is 990,000 Baht. For a small business like me, it is a big amount of money.

At that time, I have asked the salesperson that "Isn't there any promotion? "Sell confirmed that it doesn't have. Because it's a commercial car and it's the only electric train in the market. I decided that everywhere is needed. Let's try it.

I bite my teeth, pay deposit, apply finance, pay 48 installments, interest 2.09% and get the car on 31 October. The money that I pay on the day of getting the car in the first installment is more than 300,000 Baht.

But heartbreak comes so fast.

Just less than 1 month, on the 1st December in Motor Expo, I saw BYD T3 announce the price reduction from 990,000 baht to 699,000 baht!!! Yes sir... Reduced for more than 300,000 baht. My hair almost fell down while standing up...

300,000 baht may seem small for a big company like BYD but for SMEs like me, this money is the payment of labor for several months, rent or even working capital that helps to boost the business in this economic period. I don't understand why companies don't inform or consider customers who buy first.

Now, I feel like I am abandoned as a customer of SMEs. Small businesses like us who struggle every day. I have to face things like this again. The more I think about it, the more I feel sad.

Let me leave this as a lesson for others. If you don't hurry to use the car, it's better to wait for the promotion period. Because if you buy it first, you may be in pain like me...

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2389905174463399/posts/8837573906363128/

I must admit most I people know if buying a vehicle and there was an Motor show taking place in 4-6 weeks time would delay any purchase until the Motorshow offers have been published

And in defence of the dealer and the brand dealers aren't aware of any price changes until the last minute as the potential of that information leaking out is to great

dealer tells family member or friend don't buy this month wait until next month but I can't tell you why

There have been many reports of sales people telling customers price will go up next month but normally that is a method used by sales people to try and close the deal

If they don't know about price reductions they also don't know about price increases

[KhunLA]

17 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

If I remember correctly you paid B932K for you MG ZS EV 2 years ago in 2022 and your car is now worth 

B450k-B500K approx so you car has devalued between B482-B432K

if we take the B482K reduction in value it will take 12 years to recuperate your  existing deprecation to date with petrol savings of B40K per year

Here the story of a small business owner that wishes he could turn back time

BYD is very cruel to SMEs like us...

Allow me to tell this story in case it is an example to those who are thinking of buying an electric vehicle, especially those who do small businesses like me.

At the end of last September, the van I used to deliver was damaged beyond repair. At that time, I was very stressful. Because the car is like the heart of the business, we had to find a new one to use. At that time I think that electric cars could save energy cost and long-term maintenance.

I choose BYD T3 because I think I want to support a clean energy car. I have seen it as a service car for many places. It looks reliable. But when I asked the price and the seller, I got the answer that it is 990,000 Baht. For a small business like me, it is a big amount of money.

At that time, I have asked the salesperson that "Isn't there any promotion? "Sell confirmed that it doesn't have. Because it's a commercial car and it's the only electric train in the market. I decided that everywhere is needed. Let's try it.

I bite my teeth, pay deposit, apply finance, pay 48 installments, interest 2.09% and get the car on 31 October. The money that I pay on the day of getting the car in the first installment is more than 300,000 Baht.

But heartbreak comes so fast.

Just less than 1 month, on the 1st December in Motor Expo, I saw BYD T3 announce the price reduction from 990,000 baht to 699,000 baht!!! Yes sir... Reduced for more than 300,000 baht. My hair almost fell down while standing up...

300,000 baht may seem small for a big company like BYD but for SMEs like me, this money is the payment of labor for several months, rent or even working capital that helps to boost the business in this economic period. I don't understand why companies don't inform or consider customers who buy first.

Now, I feel like I am abandoned as a customer of SMEs. Small businesses like us who struggle every day. I have to face things like this again. The more I think about it, the more I feel sad.

Let me leave this as a lesson for others. If you don't hurry to use the car, it's better to wait for the promotion period. Because if you buy it first, you may be in pain like me...

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2389905174463399/posts/8837573906363128/

I must admit most people know if buying a vehicle and there was an Motor show taking place in 4-6 weeks time would delay any purchase until the Motorshow offers have been published

And in defence of the dealer and the brand dealers aren't aware of any price changes until the last minute as the potential of that information leaking out is to great

dealer tells family member or friend don't buy this month wait until next month but I can't tell you why

There have been many reports of sales people telling customers price will go up next month but normally that is a method used by sales people to try and close the deal

If they don't know about price reductions they also don't know about price increases

Insured value for 590k, which is irrelevant, since we'll be keeping till it dies. if ever, then as stated, more than a few times, repurposed to solar system.   That is worth more than any resale value.  Try buying 40kWh of ESS, now or 6 more year from now.  More than any resale value of any 8 yr old, <1M baht new priced vehicle 2 yrs ago.

 

After the 8 yr battery warranty, not many cars in the now 829k baht range are worth much, or will be in 8 years, including ICEVs.

 

Yes,  new tech items, depreciate fast, as new & better arrive.   That will flatten out. 

 

Also stated many times, if waiting for better tech / pricing, we would have lost 2+ more years of depreciating on the ICEV that we sold.  Along with 2 years of petrol savings.   So it's all a wash in that aspect.

 

Along with the smiles of driving the BEV over the ICEV version, for the past 2+ years.

 

Your augments are still irrelevant to value of BEVs over ICEVs.   If you trade in your car every year or 3, then resale price might matter.   But if you do trade up ever couple years, I'm pretty sure money isn't a problem with one's auto purchases.

 

 

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, Gweiloman said:

There are over a hundred EV makers in China alone and just a handful of Japanese legacy automakers. The latter has been in business for decades so obviously they will not collapse overnight. But you are missing the point. EVs are going to be taking over from ICEVs. This is inevitable. Of course EVs will not comprise 100% of the auto market because there are certain scenarios that render them less efficient. But I believe that even in my lifetime, EVs will be the preferred choice for most normal car owners.

 

China roads are a delight. Quiet, practically no visible tailpipe pollution. In a week, I only ever noticed one diesel vehicle emitting some fumes and this was in a rural area.

This article was published April this year and since then a number of EV manfacturers have filed for bankruptcy

I think the article is correct by 2030 they will only be a small number of  EV manfacturers left in China

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/24/business/china-ev-industry-competition-analysis-intl-hnk/index.html

Multiple Chinese electric vehicle (EV) companies have filed for bankruptcy or are struggling to stay in business, including:

China Evergrande

In August 2024, a local court ruled that two of China Evergrande's EV subsidiaries, Evergrande New Energy Vehicle (Guangdong) and Evergrande Smart Automotive (Guangdong), must enter bankruptcy and be reorganized. This came after creditors filed for the proceedings. 

WM Motor

In November 2024, the Chinese EV startup WM Motor filed for bankruptcy. WM Motor was one of the largest Chinese EV makers, selling around 100,000 vehicles between 2019 and 2022. 

HiPhi

In February 2024, the high-end carmaker HiPhi halted production due to financial difficulties. In 2022, HiPhi only sold 4,520 vehicles. 

Singulato and Aiways

More than 20 EV makers in China have left the market since 2020, including Singulato and Aiways. 

[KhunLA]

32 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

This article was published April this year and since then a number of EV manfacturers have filed for bankruptcy

I think the article is correct by 2030 they will only be a small number of  EV manfacturers left in China

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/24/business/china-ev-industry-competition-analysis-intl-hnk/index.html

Multiple Chinese electric vehicle (EV) companies have filed for bankruptcy or are struggling to stay in business, including:

China Evergrande

In August 2024, a local court ruled that two of China Evergrande's EV subsidiaries, Evergrande New Energy Vehicle (Guangdong) and Evergrande Smart Automotive (Guangdong), must enter bankruptcy and be reorganized. This came after creditors filed for the proceedings. 

WM Motor

In November 2024, the Chinese EV startup WM Motor filed for bankruptcy. WM Motor was one of the largest Chinese EV makers, selling around 100,000 vehicles between 2019 and 2022. 

HiPhi

In February 2024, the high-end carmaker HiPhi halted production due to financial difficulties. In 2022, HiPhi only sold 4,520 vehicles. 

Singulato and Aiways

More than 20 EV makers in China have left the market since 2020, including Singulato and Aiways. 

A good thing ICEV makers never go belly up, or absorbed by a larger company, until they go belly, or get a govt bail out.

 

MG - SAIC ... nuff said

 

Defunct auto makers ... too many to even list, and that's just the USA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_automobile_manufacturers_of_the_United_States

 

UK, EU, Europe & JP have their own long lists of defunct auto maker.

 

Just wait till the 'green mandates' are actually enforced.  The value of those ICEV will plummet, and simply be collector items in the future.

 

Along with petrol being an 'expensive' niche market, plus licensing to even drive ICE personal use autos & trucks.

 

Not what if scenarios ... but the ICEV future reality 

 

[vinny41]

33 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Insured value for 590k, which is irrelevant, since we'll be keeping till it dies. if ever, then as stated, more than a few times, repurposed to solar system.   That is worth more than any resale value.  Try buying 40kWh of ESS, now or 6 more year from now.  More than any resale value of any 8 yr old, <1M baht new priced vehicle 2 yrs ago.

 

After the 8 yr battery warranty, not many cars in the now 829k baht range are worth much, or will be in 8 years, including ICEVs.

 

Yes,  new tech items, depreciate fast, as new & better arrive.   That will flatten out. 

 

Also stated many times, if waiting for better tech / pricing, we would have lost 2+ more years of depreciating on the ICEV that we sold.  Along with 2 years of petrol savings.   So it's all a wash in that aspect.

 

Along with the smiles of driving the BEV over the ICEV version, for the past 2+ years.

 

Your augments are still irrelevant to value of BEVs over ICEVs.   If you trade in your car every year or 3, then resale price might matter.   But if you do trade up ever couple years, I'm pretty sure money isn't a problem with one's auto purchases.

 

 

Price reductions this year are as a result of oversupply not newer tech coming on the market and as a result of the price reductions we are seeing an mismatch in EV car insurance 

Insurers are lowering the capital amount on EV due to price reductions but if the vehicles are involved in a major accident they are reaching the 70% amount of value and the cars are written off and insurance premiums are increasing due to the number of vehicles being written off 

because while the price reductions are a sales method to generate new sales

the price of parts haven't reduced only 9 items are exempt from custom duties 

Boittom line is rebuilding a car that has suffered major damage from an accident is more expensive than buying a new one

https://miceoss.tceb.or.th/en/customs-exempt-import-duties-on-electric-vehicle-components-or-electric-powered-vessels-with-batteries-for-9-items/

[vinny41]

18 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

A good thing ICEV makers never go belly up, or absorbed by a larger company, until they go belly, or get a govt bail out.

 

MG - SAIC ... nuff said

 

Defunct auto makers ... too many to even list, and that's just the USA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_automobile_manufacturers_of_the_United_States

 

UK, EU, Europe & JP have their own long lists of defunct auto maker.

 

Just wait till the 'green mandates' are actually enforced.  The value of those ICEV will plummet, and simply be collector items in the future.

 

Along with petrol being an 'expensive' niche market, plus licensing to even drive ICE personal use autos & trucks.

 

Not what if scenarios ... but the ICEV future reality 

 

If the green mandates are enforced if anything its likely to increase the price of ICE vehicles  its all about supply and demand 

when the EV subsidy was 1st launched in March 2022 there were people paying a price premium to take over someone else's place in the queue with delivery times of between 6-9 months

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

If the green mandates are enforced if anything its likely to increase the price of ICE vehicles  its all about supply and demand 

when the EV subsidy was 1st launched in March 2022 there were people paying a price premium to take over someone else's place in the queue with delivery times of between 6-9 months

You'll always have stupid customers, no matter what the product.   Apple & iPhones are a fine example.