ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[VocalNeal]

On 1/10/2022 at 9:16 AM, KhunLA said:

they'll pay for themselves vs petrol & maintenance,

As long as you sell it before the sealed bearings in the electric motor wear out.

[Yellowtail]

13 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I don't think station owners in the Gilgunnia area will provide enough demand to justify the expense of an EV charging station.

How much fossil fuel energy goes into the manufacture of an "environmentally-friendly" EV? You think the recharging facilities are all running off solar and wind power?

 

Yes, the intelligentsia generally believes this, or they believe that it soon will be. To them, electricity comes from a hole in the wall. 

 

In any event, the end game is to price ownership of  private cars and single family homes such the they are unobtainable to the hoi polloi. 

[VocalNeal]

On 1/11/2022 at 9:53 AM, Henryford said:

An EV would be a nightmare here in Thailand, unless you live in a house with a charging port and only do short around town journeys. I can't see that changing for 20+ years.

Also applies in the rest of the world.

[TropicalGuy]

Another developed -country problem …… insufficient infrastructure and interest here….. better to first address the ten million here in Poverty ….or the sub- standard Education system.

[LarrySR]

The Thai government is cutting import taxes on EVs and the boom in sales begins. 
For those here that fall for the shallow fossil fuel propaganda, there will be plenty of electricity and charging stations. 

 

If there is a customer for electricity… you can be sure some enterprising Thai will be there to sell you some. 
 

[Yellowtail]

2 minutes ago, TropicalGuy said:

Another developed -country problem …… insufficient infrastructure and interest here….. better to first address the ten million here in Poverty ….or the sub- standard Education system.

Better to spend the money subsidizing the rich. If you bring the people out of poverty they'll be thinking they deserve to own cars and air-conditioned homes. 

[Yellowtail]

30 minutes ago, LarrySR said:

If there is a customer for electricity… you can be sure some enterprising Thai will be there to sell you some. 

I agree, that's why I think it crazy that governments dump money into it on the backs of the poor. 

[TropicalGuy]

29 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Better to spend the money subsidizing the rich. If you bring the people out of poverty they'll be thinking they deserve to own cars and air-conditioned homes. 

and with economic power will want political power (back)…yes, threat to tyranny which China CCP is somehow balancing, under guise of Nationalism & external enemies

[LarrySR]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

Yes, the intelligentsia generally believes this, or they believe that it soon will be. To them, electricity comes from a hole in the wall. 

 

 

The fossil fuel industry appreciates you parroting their propaganda.

 

Thailand's Alternative Energy Development Plan (AEDP) in 2011 called for 25 percent of its energy to come from renewable sources by 2036. The country has the onshore potential of 13-17 GW that can deliver wind projects at below 3 baht per kWh.

Solar power in Thailand is targeted to reach 6,000 MW by 2036. Hundreds of solar projects are underway in Thailand.

In 2021, the world’s largest hybrid solar-hydropower project, the Sirindhorn floating solar farm, commenced operations.

Thailand's Siam Solar Energy operates three solar plants of 10.5 MW each in addition to existing two solar plants that have been under operation.

 

 

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by LarrySR

[Yellowtail]

14 minutes ago, LarrySR said:

The fossil fuel industry appreciates you parroting their propaganda.

 

Thailand's Alternative Energy Development Plan (AEDP) in 2011 called for 25 percent of its energy to come from renewable sources by 2036. The country has the onshore potential of 13-17 GW that can deliver wind projects at below 3 baht per kWh.

Solar power in Thailand is targeted to reach 6,000 MW by 2036. Hundreds of solar projects are underway in Thailand.

In 2021, the world’s largest hybrid solar-hydropower project, the Sirindhorn floating solar farm, commenced operations.

Thailand's Siam Solar Energy operates three solar plants of 10.5 MW each in addition to existing two solar plants that have been under operation.

 

So considering Bangkok uses over 2,000MW, would you say they are on track to meet that goal with the 30MW over ten years you mentioned? 

[placeholder]

2 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

As long as you sell it before the sealed bearings in the electric motor wear out.

Can you please share with us the evidence, which I'm sure you have plenty of, the shows this is a current or impending problem?

[KhunLA]

3 hours ago, pedro01 said:

I grew up used to the noise and feel of a gas engine - and I feel that electric cars are so soulless.

 

Both out cars are 3.0 V6 - and make a lot of noise. In fact - the wife's car shakes the windows on the house when she's parking it and there's never any doubt she's turned into our soi 'cause you can hear it. 

Got the Grand Prix running now ... imagine if these were EVs ... more powerful & faster, which they would be, but they'd be humming by ... literally HUMMING by .... ????

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by KhunLA

[BritManToo]

On 1/10/2022 at 9:16 AM, KhunLA said:

Price is the sticking point for me.  Even though long run, they'll pay for themselves vs petrol & maintenance, that's a big leap for range and performance / highway speed.  

Tesla batteries last less than 10 years and cost $22,000 (US) to replace.

Are you sure they'll pay for themselves?

[VocalNeal]

Still searching for the article about the workshop in California,

Did find this

Quote

I replaced a motor in a Tesla Model 3 by myself. The motor came from a Tesla salvage yard for $7k and the installation took around 4 hours, but I had to get Tesla to program the car to accept the new motor. 

This is only one or two cars.

 

Quote

These photos show the heart of the electric motor, the “rotor” that spins to make power. The most prominent faulty bearing can be seen in these photos of the Tesla GEN1 motor used in 2012-2014 Tesla Model S and Toyota RAV4 EV, as well as the  Mercedes-Benz B-Class Electric Drive. 

 

https://electrek.co/2020/06/12/when-an-out-of-warranty-ev-fails-who-you-gonna-call/

Edited January 20, 2022 by VocalNeal

[KhunLA]

7 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Tesla batteries last less than 10 years and cost $22,000 (US) to replace.

Are you sure they'll pay for themselves?

That's the price quoted on 'that vid' ... only Buddha knows what that included, as it was a used / refurbished car to begin with.  Whole packs usually / probably don't need to be replaced, just the weakest links / cells in the pack.  Yes, still a ???

 

Google suggests this, so possibly anywhere in the 10k & up, as a negative range now, though would imagine cheaper & better as time goes on.

 

"How much does it cost to replace a Teslas battery?

Tesla batteries are designed to last between 300,000 and 500,000 miles, so replacement shouldn't be a major concern for most drivers. It's estimated that the cost to replace a Model 3 battery will be in the $3,000 to $7,000 range."

https://evannex.com/pages/the-cost-of-a-tesla-the-costs-of-the-tesla-models-maintenance-charging-and-more

Edited January 20, 2022 by KhunLA

[BritManToo]

9 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

That's the price quoted on 'that vid' ... only Buddha knows what that included, as it was a used / refurbished car to begin with.  Whole packs usually / probably don't need to be replaced, just the weakest links / cells in the pack.  Yes, still a ???

Nope, Tesla only allow the whole battery pack to be replaced.

They also do everything in their power to stop other people attempting repairs.

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by BritManToo

[Airalee]

57 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Got the Grand Prix running now ... imagine if these were EVs ... more powerful & faster, which they would be, but they'd be humming by ... literally HUMMING by .... ????

 

I’d prefer a gt3 screaming by over a Tesla humming by regardless of the speed.

 

[VocalNeal]

These are not electric

 

 

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

Nope, Tesla only allow the whole battery pack to be replaced.

They also do everything in their power to stop other people attempting repairs.

 

Good luck with.  Be like an ICE manufacturer trying to stop you from swapping out a blown engine.  Sure computer geeks will figure away to get around any software lockouts Musk & Co can think of.  Already have 3rd party mechanic swapping cells out of the earlier, out of warranty models.

[KhunLA]

16 minutes ago, VocalNeal said:

These are not electric

 

 

@ 4:25  ????????????

https://insideevs.com/news/467456/drag-race-small-pocket-rocket-evs/

Edited January 20, 2022 by KhunLA

[Henryford]

18 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

Also applies in the rest of the world.

Except in many western countries they are beginning to establish a charging network. I doubt if there are many here outside of Bangkok.

Edited January 21, 2022 by Henryford

[KhunLA]

53 minutes ago, Henryford said:

Except in many western countries they are beginning to establish a charging network. I doubt if there are many here outside of Bangkok.

I believe it's 1000+ country wide now, so shouldn't really be a problem finding one.

[placeholder]

16 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Tesla batteries last less than 10 years and cost $22,000 (US) to replace.

Are you sure they'll pay for themselves?

Where did you come up with the factoid about those batteries lasting less than 10 years. A particularly bizarre assertion since it doesn't reference mileage at all.

As for the US $22,000 to replace, there are plenty of 3rd party repair establishments that will replace individual cells for far less.

[placeholder]

20 hours ago, Lacessit said:

I don't think station owners in the Gilgunnia area will provide enough demand to justify the expense of an EV charging station.

How much fossil fuel energy goes into the manufacture of an "environmentally-friendly" EV? You think the recharging facilities are all running off solar and wind power?

 

Good news! 

YSE Study Finds Electric Vehicles Provide Lower Carbon Emissions Through Additional Channels

With new major spending packages investing billions of dollars in electric vehicles in the U.S., some analysts have raised concerns over how green the electric vehicle industry actually is, focusing particularly on indirect emissions caused within the supply chains of the vehicle components and the fuels used to power electricity that charges the vehicles.

But a recent study from the Yale School of the Environment published in Nature Communications found that the total indirect emissions from electric vehicles pale in comparison to the indirect emissions from fossil fuel-powered vehicles. This is in addition to the direct emissions from combusting fossil fuels — either at the tailpipe for conventional vehicles or at the power plant smokestack for electricity generation — showing electric vehicles have a clear advantage emissions-wise over conventional vehicles.

https://environment.yale.edu/news/article/yse-study-finds-electric-vehicles-provide-lower-carbon-emissions-through-additional

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-27247-y

Edited January 21, 2022 by placeholder

[Yellowtail]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

Good news! 

YSE Study Finds Electric Vehicles Provide Lower Carbon Emissions Through Additional Channels

With new major spending packages investing billions of dollars in electric vehicles in the U.S., some analysts have raised concerns over how green the electric vehicle industry actually is, focusing particularly on indirect emissions caused within the supply chains of the vehicle components and the fuels used to power electricity that charges the vehicles.

But a recent study from the Yale School of the Environment published in Nature Communications found that the total indirect emissions from electric vehicles pale in comparison to the indirect emissions from fossil fuel-powered vehicles. This is in addition to the direct emissions from combusting fossil fuels — either at the tailpipe for conventional vehicles or at the power plant smokestack for electricity generation — showing electric vehicles have a clear advantage emissions-wise over conventional vehicles.

https://environment.yale.edu/news/article/yse-study-finds-electric-vehicles-provide-lower-carbon-emissions-through-additional

Yes, it's great that EVs are so heavily subsidized in the US. 

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Yes, it's great that EVs are so heavily subsidized in the US. 

As the IMF has pointed out, the fossil fuel industry is subsidized to about 6 trillion dollar per year which is about 6% of global GDP. And this is an industry that has been in existence for over 100 years in the case of petroleum and natural gas. Much of the subsidy comes in the form of illnesses caused by pollution not being paid for by said industry, but by the people who suffer from them. This burden falls disproportionately on the poor, for whom crocodile tears are being shed on their behalf by people like you when it comes to EV's. Got any tears to shed for the damage done to the poor by air and water pollution? I've seen no evidence of that.

[sirineou]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

Good news! 

YSE Study Finds Electric Vehicles Provide Lower Carbon Emissions Through Additional Channels

With new major spending packages investing billions of dollars in electric vehicles in the U.S., some analysts have raised concerns over how green the electric vehicle industry actually is, focusing particularly on indirect emissions caused within the supply chains of the vehicle components and the fuels used to power electricity that charges the vehicles.

But a recent study from the Yale School of the Environment published in Nature Communications found that the total indirect emissions from electric vehicles pale in comparison to the indirect emissions from fossil fuel-powered vehicles. This is in addition to the direct emissions from combusting fossil fuels — either at the tailpipe for conventional vehicles or at the power plant smokestack for electricity generation — showing electric vehicles have a clear advantage emissions-wise over conventional vehicles.

https://environment.yale.edu/news/article/yse-study-finds-electric-vehicles-provide-lower-carbon-emissions-through-additional

In addition what critics of EVs fail to consider is that the electric  production pollution will decrease over time, as electricity generation technologies advance.   In addition ICE pollution is concentrated where people drive live and breath, where electric production is not made away from living areas,  

   This whole EVs are just as polluting argument is a fossil fuel industry argument put out there to muddy the waters and delay their adoption, thus extending their profits.   

[KhunLA]

21 minutes ago, sirineou said:

In addition what critics of EVs fail to consider is that the electric  production pollution will decrease over time, as electricity generation technologies advance.   In addition ICE pollution is concentrated where people drive live and breath, where electric production is not made away from living areas,  

   This whole EVs are just as polluting argument is a fossil fuel industry argument put out there to muddy the waters and delay their adoption, thus extending their profits.   

Along with nobody will be throwing away those car battery banks under 70 or 80% capacity, as will be used elsewhere until useless, which may take another decade or so.  As long as they hold a charge, there will be a market for them.

 

For those not doing over the road trips, not a concern, and it simply means you need to top up more often.  If not doing over the road trips, that original bank may outlast you, depending on your age.  

 

If I bought a new MG EV car, I'm pretty sure I don't have 180k kms left in me, especially since I use the e-motorcycle, e-bike, and soon to arrive e-scooters (stand up thingy) for around town use.  Yea, I'm addicted to E-toys ... ????

 

Where the closest EA meeting at tonight  ????

[sirineou]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

Good news! 

YSE Study Finds Electric Vehicles Provide Lower Carbon Emissions Through Additional Channels

With new major spending packages investing billions of dollars in electric vehicles in the U.S., some analysts have raised concerns over how green the electric vehicle industry actually is, focusing particularly on indirect emissions caused within the supply chains of the vehicle components and the fuels used to power electricity that charges the vehicles.

But a recent study from the Yale School of the Environment published in Nature Communications found that the total indirect emissions from electric vehicles pale in comparison to the indirect emissions from fossil fuel-powered vehicles. This is in addition to the direct emissions from combusting fossil fuels — either at the tailpipe for conventional vehicles or at the power plant smokestack for electricity generation — showing electric vehicles have a clear advantage emissions-wise over conventional vehicles.

https://environment.yale.edu/news/article/yse-study-finds-electric-vehicles-provide-lower-carbon-emissions-through-additional

In addition what critics of EVs fail to consider is that the electric  production pollution will decrease over time, as electricity generation technologies advance.   In addition ICE pollution is concentrated where people drive live and breath, where electric production is not made away from living areas,  

   This whole EVs are just as polluting argument is a fossil fuel industry argument put out there to muddy the waters and delay their adoption, thus extending their profits.   

[Yellowtail]

3 hours ago, placeholder said:

As the IMF has pointed out, the fossil fuel industry is subsidized to about 6 trillion dollar per year which is about 6% of global GDP. And this is an industry that has been in existence for over 100 years in the case of petroleum and natural gas. Much of the subsidy comes in the form of illnesses caused by pollution not being paid for by said industry, but by the people who suffer from them.

You mean the people suffering are the same ones that are buying and burning the fossil fuels, yes?

 

The same fossil fuels that are used to charge EVs, yes? 

 

 

3 hours ago, placeholder said:

This burden falls disproportionately on the poor...

How?

 

3 hours ago, placeholder said:

...for whom crocodile tears are being shed on their behalf by people like you when it comes to EV's.

I'm not crying, I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of the intelligentsia. 

 

3 hours ago, placeholder said:

Got any tears to shed for the damage done to the poor by air and water pollution? I've seen no evidence of that.

No, do you? I know you pretend to.