ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[HighPriority]

13 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Clearly forum members are concerned about price reductions

one forum member told MG that they could take their cyberster to where the sun doesn't shine becase they refused to provide him with a price reduction guarantee

There was a news article recently where over 50+ Byd owners want Byd to buy back their vehicles due to the huge price reduction

 

So clearly people are concerned about EV price reductions

On the MG ZS it clear why MG have only reduced the price of the MG ZS as replacement model will be announced either in the December 2024 motor show or the March 2025 motor show

MG ZS petrol registrations for the past 19 months January 1st 2023  to 31st July 2024 4,122

MG ZS EV registrations for the same period 2,074

Hence no price reductions on MG ZS petrol for the past 4 years

So, you’re having air for breakfast then…? 🤣

 

In real terms, almost every manufactured item is cheaper each year, advances in tech, more efficient assembly lines, economy of scale, Yarda Yarda…

 

If you’re “scared” to buy an ev don’t, but also don’t wade around telling everyone who either has bought or is thinking of buying that the sky is falling.

[HighPriority]

13 hours ago, vinny41 said:

I know and I corrected my Post

as for comments about Alzheimer's? or dementia

In my opinion poor state shown by posters

My mothe died from a long battle with dementia

I wrote that and I withdrew it minutes later, you are completely correct, I was wrong to say it.

I have also recently lost my mother to dementia, it’s a horrible condition.

Sorry.

 

[JBChiangRai]

1 hour ago, HighPriority said:

I wrote that and I withdrew it minutes later, you are completely correct, I was wrong to say it.

I have also recently lost my mother to dementia, it’s a horrible condition.

Sorry.

 

 

I lost my mother to dementia (Alzheimer's) too, but I agree with Ricky Gervais, no subject is taboo for humour, people confuse the subject of the joke with the target.

[KhunLA]

A work in progress ... only you and or your politicians are preventing 100% success 

 

You can do it, or wait for the idiots you elect to do it ... which do you think will happen faster ?

 

[Yellowtail]

12 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Wow ... you are actually on topic ... accidently of course.  Let's open that can of worms.

 

How many people died while in the EV, non moving, sleeping, camping, or what ever ?   And no, didn't bother searching as probably extremely low.

 

In just the USA ...

... "In 2022, 1,244 people in the US died from carbon monoxide poisoning, according to provisional CDC data. Of those deaths, 624 were accidental and 579 were suicides."

 

I await your fake #s, or silly vid, meme, BS 

"In the United States, there are approximately 1000 deaths per year, as a result of electrical injuries..."

 

Apparently, none were suicides. 

 

Electrical Injuries - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf (nih.gov)

[atpeace]

2 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

"In the United States, there are approximately 1000 deaths per year, as a result of electrical injuries..."

 

Apparently, none were suicides. 

 

Electrical Injuries - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf (nih.gov)

How many were in their cars? You could get kinky with the cig lighter I guess...

[Yellowtail]

6 minutes ago, atpeace said:

How many were in their cars? You could get kinky with the cig lighter I guess...

How many of the people that died of CO poisoning that did not commit suicide were in their car? 

[atpeace]

Just now, Yellowtail said:

How many of the people that died of CO poisoning that did not commit suicide were in their car? 

Good question but to lazy to get the number but assume it is large.  Many people die of CO poisoning.  I know of people personally that have had close calls.  They now have CO alarms in their vehicles. Very dangerous to sleep in a car with the motor running IMO but so tempting 🙂

[Yellowtail]

Just now, atpeace said:

Good question but to lazy to get the number but assume it is large.  Many people die of CO poisoning.  I know of people personally that have had close calls.  They now have CO alarms in their vehicles. Very dangerous to sleep in a car with the motor running IMO but so tempting 🙂

CO monitors in their car? That's hilarious. 

 

Far and away, most non-suicide CO poisoning deaths in the US result from poorly installed gas appliances and portable heaters. Insurance companies often mandate smoke alarms be installed. 

[KhunLA]

8 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

How many of the people that died of CO poisoning that did not commit suicide were in their car? 

That number was noted if you read the full statement I posted.   And I though I speed read a lot.

 

...  "In 2022, 1,244 people in the US died from carbon monoxide poisoning, according to provisional CDC data. Of those deaths, 624 were accidental and 579 were suicides."

[JBChiangRai]

16 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

How many of the people that died of CO poisoning that did not commit suicide were in their car? 

 

That sort of things happen in snow storms when people keep their engine running to keep warm.

[Yellowtail]

22 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

That sort of things happen in snow storms when people keep their engine running to keep warm.

I did not say no one dies of CO poisoning in their car. And, yes, it happens occasional when people that get caught in a snowstorm when people run the engine to keep warm, AND the car has an exhaust leak that vents into the car, which almost never happens. 

 

Again, far and away, most non-suicide CO poisoning deaths in the US result from poorly installed gas appliances and portable heaters. Insurance companies often mandate smoke alarms be installed. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Yellowtail]

33 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

That number was noted if you read the full statement I posted.   And I though I speed read a lot.

 

...  "In 2022, 1,244 people in the US died from carbon monoxide poisoning, according to provisional CDC data. Of those deaths, 624 were accidental and 579 were suicides."

Which says nothing about how many of the people, suicidal of otherwise, were in their car. 

 

Speed reading indeed. 

[JBChiangRai]

3 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I did not say no one dies of CO poisoning in their car. And, yes, it happens occasional when people that get caught in a snowstorm when people run the engine to keep warm, AND the car has an exhaust leak that vents into the car, which almost never happens. 

 

Again, far and away, most non-suicide CO poisoning deaths in the US result from poorly installed gas appliances and portable heaters. Insurance companies often mandate smoke alarms be installed. 

 

 

 

It doesn't need an exhaust leak, just snow building up around the car and behind the exhaust pipe will do it.

[Yellowtail]

Just now, JBChiangRai said:

 

It doesn't need an exhaust leak, just snow building up around the car and behind the exhaust pipe will do it.

So how many? 

[JBChiangRai]

Just now, Yellowtail said:

So how many? 

 

326.7

[Fruit Trader]

14 hours ago, atpeace said:

Please explain how my inverter is being derated has ANYTHING to do with using the excess solar to charge my a friends car or for that matter my car. 

 

Your inverter was very likely in a derated condition before you started the charge. Unless of course you are exporting for profit or net metering
 

I prefer to use derated when referring to an inverter that's in a condition where it can't export or dump power available locally. I try to avoid using the ambiguous term free power.

 

 

14 hours ago, atpeace said:

BTW, do you understand the concept of fixed and variable costs?  Doubt it but just asking.

 

Yes I fully understand fixed and variable costing, we have many working examples here but it does not change my stance on ROI  and free surplus power; if that's what you are referring to.
 

 

14 hours ago, atpeace said:

OK, you are obviously a nutter.

 

Hit me up on PM and I will invite you to tour the family packaging facility and power electronics  business this nutter has created.  The BIL always has a solar inverter on the bench.
 

 

 

[atpeace]

35 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

CO monitors in their car? That's hilarious. 

 

Far and away, most non-suicide CO poisoning deaths in the US result from poorly installed gas appliances and portable heaters. Insurance companies often mandate smoke alarms be installed. 

OK, but think you would be wise not to have if you sleep in your ICE car?  You do know they are widely used for those that sleep in  cars with the engine running? Most aren't stupid enough to sleep routinely in their cars without a detector.  Truckers use them quite often and now because of the dangers have mostly switched to electronic not diesel driven cooling systems.  

 

I'm a risk taker but why take a stupid gamble with your life when a CO detector cost 500 baht.  99% of people don't need one because they don't sleep in their cars while running routinely.

 

 

[KhunLA]

1 minute ago, Fruit Trader said:

 

Your inverter was very likely in a derated condition before you started the charge. Unless of course you are exporting for profit or net metering
 

I prefer to use derated when referring to an inverter that's in a condition where it can't export or dump power available locally. I try to avoid using the ambiguous term free power.

 

 

 

Yes I fully understand fixed and variable costing, we have many working examples here but it does not change my stance on ROI  and free surplus power; if that's what you are referring to.
 

 

 

Hit me up on PM and I will invite you to tour the family packaging facility and power electronics  business this nutter has created.  The BIL always has a solar inverter on the bench.

In my world, if I pay for something, and get more than I need, when purchased, that fall under 'free' for me, 

 

I contract a baker, I need at least 12 donuts everyday.  Baker says we have extra, here's 18 donuts.   I wanted and paid for 12, I get 18.   That's 6 free donuts in my world.

 

I pay for a solar system, and want, need 25-30 kWh a day.  I get 50 kWh a day, that saves me spending money from PEA or at the CS for 20 kWh a day, meaning I just got 20 free kWh.

[Yellowtail]

1 minute ago, atpeace said:

OK, but think you would be wise not to have if you sleep in your ICE car?  You do know they are widely used for those that sleep in  cars with the engine running? Most aren't stupid enough to sleep routinely in their cars without a detector.  Truckers use them quite often and now because of the dangers have mostly switched to electronic not diesel driven cooling systems.  

 

I'm a risk taker but why take a stupid gamble with your life when a CO detector cost 500 baht.  99% of people don't need one because they don't sleep in their cars while running routinely.

 

 

I have not slept in my car since the '70s, nor do I plan to. 

 

It's hard for me to believe that people that people sleeping in their cars can afford to run the engine. 

 

I would bet that the number of people that don't sleep in their car is greater than 99% 

 

 

[Fruit Trader]

7 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

In my world, if I pay for something, and get more than I need, when purchased, that fall under 'free' for me, 

 

I contract a baker, I need at least 12 donuts everyday.  Baker says we have extra, here's 18 donuts.   I wanted and paid for 12, I get 18.   That's 6 free donuts in my world.

 

I pay for a solar system, and want, need 25-30 kWh a day.  I get 50 kWh a day, that saves me spending money from PEA or at the CS for 20 kWh a day, meaning I just got 20 free kWh.

 

In my world if I get 150g for the price of 100g I simply adjust the price per gram. 

Its an interesting argument like when I said no to a two for the price of one offer and ask for one at half price.

[atpeace]

33 minutes ago, Fruit Trader said:

 

Your inverter was very likely in a derated condition before you started the charge. Unless of course you are exporting for profit or net metering
 

I prefer to use derated when referring to an inverter that's in a condition where it can't export or dump power available locally. I try to avoid using the ambiguous term free power.

 

 

 

Yes I fully understand fixed and variable costing, we have many working examples here but it does not change my stance on ROI  and free surplus power; if that's what you are referring to.
 

 

 

Hit me up on PM and I will invite you to tour the family packaging facility and power electronics  business this nutter has created.  The BIL always has a solar inverter on the bench.
 

 

 

Lets keep it simple.  My inverter costs 14k baht and will last probably between 10-20 years. Lets use 10 to make you happy 🙂 That comes to 1,400 baht a year.  Now lets break it down to monthly which is 115 baht.  Now I use 600 kWh per month for my house and would use roughly 200 kWhs to to charge my car each month.  So the car charging  would account for 1/3 of 115 baht monthly amortized cost over 10 years which come to a WHOPPING 38 Baht a month.

 

SO you are right it isn't free.  It would cost 38 baht a month to charge my car.  To be fair it is really half of that because half the of the depreciation of the inverter is calendar aging and has nothing to do with usage.  So lets round down and go for 15 baht.

 

Do you get how silly this proposition of your is?  Using big weird terms to describe a pointless agenda is silly. 

 

I'm sure you are a swell guy but I'll pass on the invite.  We might have  become long lasting friends but I'm a probability guy and the odds are quite small.  Sorry but thanks for the invitation. Give me the name of your company and I might stop by and treat you to a coffee or whatever if passing by.  Congrats on the packaging business and doubt I could have pulled it off here in Thailand. Cheers 🙂

Edited September 2 by atpeace

[Yellowtail]

In my world, if I have to buy 150g to get 100g, I now have the 100g I wanted, 50g I don't want. 

[atpeace]

13 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I have not slept in my car since the '70s, nor do I plan to. 

 

It's hard for me to believe that people that people sleeping in their cars can afford to run the engine. 

 

I would bet that the number of people that don't sleep in their car is greater than 99% 

 

 

Agreed but you this debate within a debate is in regards to sleeping in cars 🙂 But then again I may be mistaken.  Where did this start... 🙂

 We seem to agree that sleeping in a running car is not a smart thing to do on a regular basis and 99% of people don't do it.  I'm falling to sleep as I type about something I'm not sure that is even on point...

 

[Fruit Trader]

54 minutes ago, atpeace said:

Lets keep it simple.  My inverter costs 14k baht and will last probably between 10-20 years. Lets use 10 to make you happy 🙂 That comes to 1,400 baht a year.  Now lets break it down to monthly which is 115 baht.  Now I use 600 kWh per month for my house and would use roughly 200 kWhs to to charge my car each month.  So the car charging  would account for 1/3 of 115 baht monthly amortized cost over 10 years which come to a WHOPPING 38 Baht a month.

 

Thanks for confirming my suspicions, the above paragraph clearly explains the difficulties.  My apologies for taking you out of the comfort zone and best of luck the predictions . 

[atpeace]

1 hour ago, Fruit Trader said:

 

Thanks for confirming my suspicions, the above paragraph clearly explains the difficulties.  My apologies for taking you out of the comfort zone and best of luck the predictions . 

So genius, please explain how my 14k baht inverter that will probably  last at least 10 years can't charge my car for basically free.  Remember the primary use is for the home energy.  Do I need to derate the energy the sun provides?  

 

Just admit it - you made a stupid comment and get over it.  Like I mentioned previously, you're right, it would cost 15 baht a month to charge my car.  Maybe we should leave it at that - you are right and I am wrong. 

Edited September 2 by atpeace

[KhunLA]

2 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

In my world, if I have to buy 150g to get 100g, I now have the 100g I wanted, 50g I don't want. 

Doesn't work that way with solar, in my eyes.   You would have to buy what you need, at least 100g, and if you get 150g, then the 50g is 'excess', and goes toward you not need to buy 50g from another vendor.

 

We had to spend what we spent, to get the minimum needed to run the house.   As stated more than a few times, on crap days, it takes all day, to top the batteries back up, and that's being very conservative with use.

 

Our least production & consumptions day was only about 10 & 10kWh.  Of course on a good day, we've hit 50kwh.   Don't think the house itself has ever used more than 30kWh.   

 

We have to pay for the ability to get 10kwh a day.   That we get 5X that on some days, is a plus.   Contracted for the house only, so anything over 10 or even 30kwh a day, is 'excess'.  That all goes to the EVs.

 

Crappy day today, and solar barely providing enough for the house.  Total overcast, but thins a bit, enough anyway, so taking & replacing from the ESS.   Could probably get away with charging the E-MC, but doesn't really need now, and I wait till it gets down to ~30%, since not LFP chemistry.  That's only about 2kWh to bring it back to 100%.

 

Today's ....

Edited September 2 by KhunLA

[atpeace]

29 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Doesn't work that way with solar, in my eyes.   You would have to buy what you need, at least 100g, and if you get 150g, then the 50g is 'excess', and goes toward you not need to buy 50g from another vendor.

 

We had to spend what we spent, to get the minimum needed to run the house.   As stated more than a few times, on crap days, it takes all day, to top the batteries back up, and that's being very conservative with use.

 

Or least production & consumptions day was only about 10 & 10kWh.  Of course on a good day, we've hit 50kwh.   Don't think the house itself has ever used more than 30kWh.   

 

We have to pay for the ability to get 10kwh a day.   That we get 5X that on some days, is a plus.   Contracted for the house only, so anything over 10 or even 30kwh a day, is 'excess'.  That all goes to the EVs.

 

Crappy day today, and solar barely providing enough for the house.  Sun in & out of the clouds, so taking & replacing from the ESS.   Could probably get away with charging the E-MC, but doesn't really need now, and I wait till it gets down to ~30%, since not LFP chemistry.  That's only about 2kWh to bring it back to 100%.

Usage and production isn't linear in regards to solar as you know.  I built my system with the intention of meeting 95%+ of my energy needs, and a byproduct of this type of build is  huge excess production in the afternoon  (~25kWh's extra on a sunny day for me - 7.8 kW panels and 6.5 kW inverter). 

 

I really didn't understand the possibilities of harnessing unused solar output/potential  until I installed my system weeks ago.  You can just let the extra power potential go unused or find a use which is free ,  not considering derating (that's for you fruity or whatever your name is ), free.   Thinking about a miniature water park during the hot season.  Might need a few more panels.

Edited September 2 by atpeace

[JBChiangRai]

You might find this article interesting.

 

It talks about many new models expected in the next 6 years, it's not specifically about EV's but it does appear most of these new models will be EV's.

 

Future cars worth waiting for: 2025-2030 (msn.com)

 

It's fairly clear, EV is going to win the ICE/H2/EV race.

[KhunLA]

Another fine example and reason not to buy an ICEV, when this PHEV is available.   Better spec'd & priced than so many legacy models.