The Silent, Vaccinated, Impatient Majority

[Jeffr2]

20 minutes ago, fjb 24 said:

Yeah, I see that.

Table's 15 & 16.

Nothing misleading in the raw data.

https://www.aap.com.au/factcheck/england-covid-deaths-data-misused-in-false-vaccine-efficacy-claim/

[Chomper Higgot]

46 minutes ago, fjb 24 said:

This is all well and fine, but unless you can prove that the data (specifically Table 12(a) and 12(b) in the UK-HSA weekly surveillance reports are incorrect or false, then the numbers reflected in the recently deleted posts enumerating the data for deaths, hospitalizations etc stand. I at no time make any claim of the death rates based on risk, population, age groups,  etc., I am merely stating, (regurgitating the data within the UK-HSA reports) that of the 5,387 deaths listed in Table 12(b) that 1,142 (22%) were unvaccinated, 1,941 (36%) were fully vaccinated and 2,124 (39.4%) were fully vaccinated & 3rd dose booster. Where do I mention or make a "false claim" Please show me.

These are real, raw numbers, not some false claims or misleading claims unless truth, facts, data is somehow construed as "misleading" in some bizarre manner here in your world. But, I say it's down to just a bunch of data no one wants to hear.

For those who don't like the data contained within the reports I submitted, then don't read it, but to call real raw data misleading is ludicrous and you know it.

I am not saying that vaccinated people have a higher risk of dying or are more likely to die than un-vaccinated, I am simply making an observation of some recently reported covid death statistics, presenting and commenting on them here.

Fair enough, no suggestions of death risks, Ve, conspiracy rants, etc.

So, what really is the problem. Say it like it is.

Your desperation is showing by grasping at straws now, it's a clear sign.

It’s been explained to you numerous times.

 

And yet still you persist with your false representation of the UK data.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by Chomper Higgot

[Chomper Higgot]

35 minutes ago, Saanim said:

Also worth to read:

https://publichealthscotland.scot/media/11223/22-01-19-covid19-winter_publication_report.pdf

Have you got something to say about the report you linked or do you expect the rest of us to read all 65 pages while trying to guess what your point is?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

 

17 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Have you got something to say about the report you linked or do you expect the rest of us to read all 65 pages while trying to guess what your point is?

Their point is to continue to attempt to discredit COVID vaccinations. And since they can't do it with any legitimate, credible information, they've taken to posting links to government reports and statistics in veiled attempts to misrepresent what those statistics actually mean.

 

From the Kaiser Family Foundation in the U.S.:

 

"We find that since June 2021 approximately 163,000 lives would have been saved with vaccinations. Most of these preventable deaths occurred well after vaccines became available. In September 2021 alone, approximately 51,000 people’s lives likely would have been saved if they had chosen to get vaccinated. In November 2021, over 29,000 COVID-19 deaths likely would have been averted with vaccines."

 

 

 

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/brief/covid19-and-other-leading-causes-of-death-in-the-us/

 

[Jeffr2]

1 minute ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Their point is to continue to attempt to discredit COVID vaccinations. And since they can't do it with any legitimate, credible information, they've taken to posting links to government reports and statistics in veiled attempts to misrepresent what those statistics actually mean.

 

From the Kaiser Family Foundation in the U.S.:

 

"We find that since June 2021 approximately 163,000 lives would have been saved with vaccinations. Most of these preventable deaths occurred well after vaccines became available. In September 2021 alone, approximately 51,000 people’s lives likely would have been saved if they had chosen to get vaccinated. In November 2021, over 29,000 COVID-19 deaths likely would have been averted with vaccines."

 

 

 

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/brief/covid19-and-other-leading-causes-of-death-in-the-us/

 

Just in the US, some 3,000 are dying every day.  A majority are unvaccinated.  Boggles my mind why anyone would refuse the vaccine.  Kinda like playing Russian roulette.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

7 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Just in the US, some 3,000 are dying every day.  A majority are unvaccinated.  Boggles my mind why anyone would refuse the vaccine.  Kinda like playing Russian roulette.

 

"The current 7-day moving average of new deaths (2,288) has increased 25.1% compared with the previous 7-day moving average (1,829). As of January 26, 2022, a total of 873,957 COVID-19 deaths have been reported in the United States."

 

 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/index.html

 

Because of the pervasiveness of the Omicron variant and the unfortunately large share of the population that remains unvaccinated, daily COVID deaths in the U.S. right now are at their second highest peak ever, eclipsed only by the late 2020-early 2021 spike that began just before vaccines first became available.

 

So much for "it's mild" and "it's just a cold."

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Chomper Higgot]

11 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Just in the US, some 3,000 are dying every day.  A majority are unvaccinated.  Boggles my mind why anyone would refuse the vaccine.  Kinda like playing Russian roulette.

We all make decisions on the information we receive, people surrounded by misinformation will make misinformed decisions.

 

Misinformation is driving vaccine refusal and hence directly resulting in vast numbers of unnecessary serious illnesses, hospitalizations and deaths.

 

This begs a question. 
 

What drives people to actively spread misinformation knowing the outcome of doing so?

 

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by Chomper Higgot

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

From the U.S. CDC -- Jan. 28, 2022

 

"Two new CDC reports show that people who are up to date with their COVID-19 vaccines have the highest amount of protection against both the Delta and Omicron variants.^1,2 One report found that, compared to up-to-date adults, unvaccinated adults had five times the risk of infection and more than 50 times the risk of COVID-19-associated death."

 

 

 

"A second report found that a third dose (either an additional primary dose or booster dose) of an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine (Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna) was highly effective at preventing emergency and urgent care visits and hospitalizations related to COVID-19."

 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/index.html

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

41 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Just in the US, some 3,000 are dying every day.  A majority are unvaccinated.  Boggles my mind why anyone would refuse the vaccine.  Kinda like playing Russian roulette.

Just realized, Jeff, you also were correct in your 3,000 daily COVID deaths number you posted above for the U.S. My chart from the CDC was based on a 7-day rolling average of deaths, and thus had the 2,200+ number for the past week. But you're right that COVID deaths on some individual single days have topped the 3,000 mark lately... sadly... The 7 day average figures always trail behind the single day numbers.

 

 

 

 

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#trends_dailydeaths

 

If you look at the daily totals, much like Thailand, some states don't report or update their COVID death data over the weekends, so those delayed totals end up getting piled into the weekday totals the following week.

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Jeffr2]

30 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

From the U.S. CDC -- Jan. 28, 2022

 

"Two new CDC reports show that people who are up to date with their COVID-19 vaccines have the highest amount of protection against both the Delta and Omicron variants.^1,2 One report found that, compared to up-to-date adults, unvaccinated adults had five times the risk of infection and more than 50 times the risk of COVID-19-associated death."

 

 

 

"A second report found that a third dose (either an additional primary dose or booster dose) of an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine (Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna) was highly effective at preventing emergency and urgent care visits and hospitalizations related to COVID-19."

 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/index.html

 

Excellent information.  I follow this very closely as I'm about to embark on a trip overseas.  So, need to stay up to date on what's going on.  It changes so often that you head starts to spin!!!!

 

Thank you

[placeholder]

3 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

It’s been explained to you numerous times.

 

And yet still you persist with your false representation of the UK data.

 

 

 

 

 

Of course, he's being disingenuous. Since his posts have been eliminated we can't go back and read what he wrote. But we do know that his presentation of facts was incomplete. That he didn't offer the graphs contained in the same report that showed the  percentages by age of the vaccinated. Without that information the information offered was useless. I did offer that information and with a simple analysis showed that it proved that the unvaccinated still ran a much higher risk for death from covid. Even now, in his latest posts, he won't confirm that the evidence in those reports shows unequivocally that not getting vaccinated puts one at greater risk for dying from covid.

[onthedarkside]

Another post attempting to present misleading COVID death statistics has been removed. If the poster continues to post such info absent the proper context, a posting suspension will be forthcoming. You've been warned...

 

[placeholder]

"Increased age remains a significant predictor of increased risk of a severe outcome, but the protective effects of vaccination remain apparent for every age group. • ..

 

In the period since 26 November 2021, the number of fully vaccinated people with severe outcomes is reflective of the high number in the community who are fully vaccinated.

 

However, the proportion of fully vaccinated cases who experience severe outcomes is still lower than that for un-vaccinated people in every age group, demonstrating the effectiveness of vaccines to protect against severe outcomes"

 

https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/covid-19/Documents/covid-19-surveillance-report-20220113.pdf

[Airalee]

6 hours ago, Saanim said:

Also worth to read:

https://publichealthscotland.scot/media/11223/22-01-19-covid19-winter_publication_report.pdf

Very interesting.  Especially tables 15 and 16.

 

I really wish that I could get extremely granular data on every individual hospitalization and death.  Mostly co-morbidity related, and an included photograph (faces can be blurred to protect their identity) as there have been reports in the past of “perfectly healthy” younger people who died but then it turned out that they were morbidly obese and just hadn’t been diagnosed yet with their pre-existing conditions.

Edited January 30, 2022 by Airalee

[ozimoron]

5 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

We all make decisions on the information we receive, people surrounded by misinformation will make misinformed decisions.

 

Misinformation is driving vaccine refusal and hence directly resulting in vast numbers of unnecessary serious illnesses, hospitalizations and deaths.

 

This begs a question. 
 

What drives people to actively spread misinformation knowing the outcome of doing so?

 

 

A toxic mix of politics and psychosis. Especially when you consider that the majority of anti vaxers on this board are vaccinated.

[onthedarkside]

 

Some posters here continue to post government COVID statistics taken out of context and without the accompany explanations that the issuing government agencies provide regarding them. The apparent attempt is to discredit COVID vaccines and cast doubts over their effectiveness.

 

So, in response to a prior post above, I'm going to repost a previously posted fact check article that explained, via one example, how these statistics are being misused, and why  posts like some posted previously here are misleading and incorrect, even though the statistics themselves are accurate.

 

"Currently, 86.5% of adults in Scotland are fully vaccinated. As these numbers show, vaccinated people far outnumber unvaccinated people. As such, we cannot directly compare the number of deaths in one group to the other, as the Exposé article did. In order to determine whether the vaccines are effective at reducing the risk of death, we need to instead compare the proportion of deaths between the vaccinated and unvaccinated groups, as explained by biostatistician Lucy D’Agostino McGowan in this tweet. This method accounts for the large disparity in the size of the two groups."

 

https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/vaccines-are-highly-effective-at-reducing-the-risk-of-death-from-covid-19-the-expose-misleadingly-claims-the-uk-vaccination-campaign-has-failed/

 

Any further such posts that attempt to misuse those statistics, including by not also providing the accurate context and conclusions expressed by the government agencies issuing them, will be removed as misleading.

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, Airalee said:

Very interesting.  Especially tables 15 and 16.

 

I really wish that I could get extremely granular data on every individual hospitalization and death.  Mostly co-morbidity related, and an included photograph (faces can be blurred to protect their identity) as there have been reports in the past of “perfectly healthy” younger people who died but then it turned out that they were morbidly obese and just hadn’t been diagnosed yet with their pre-existing conditions.

What's particularly interesting is the link under table 16 that leads to this:

"Interpretation of data

There is a large risk of misinterpretation of the data presented in this section due to the complexities of vaccination data. A blog post by the UK Health Security Agency (UKHSA), formerly Public Health England (PHE), provides a comprehensive explanation of the biases and potential areas for misinterpretation of such data. They state that a simple comparison of COVID-19 case rates in those who are vaccinated and unvaccinated should not be used to assess how effective a vaccine is in preventing serious health outcomes, because there are a number of differences between the groups, other than the vaccine itself, and these biases mean that you cannot use the rates to determine how well the vaccines work."

https://publichealthscotland.scot/media/11223/22-01-19-covid19-winter_publication_report.pdf

[ozimoron]

16 minutes ago, placeholder said:

What's particularly interesting is the link under table 16 that leads to this:

"Interpretation of data

There is a large risk of misinterpretation of the data presented in this section due to the complexities of vaccination data. A blog post by the UK Health Security Agency (UKHSA), formerly Public Health England (PHE), provides a comprehensive explanation of the biases and potential areas for misinterpretation of such data. They state that a simple comparison of COVID-19 case rates in those who are vaccinated and unvaccinated should not be used to assess how effective a vaccine is in preventing serious health outcomes, because there are a number of differences between the groups, other than the vaccine itself, and these biases mean that you cannot use the rates to determine how well the vaccines work."

https://publichealthscotland.scot/media/11223/22-01-19-covid19-winter_publication_report.pdf

The problem here is that when the hard right see such warnings it's a signal to deliberately misinterpret these statistics as talking points, knowing that many of their constituents won't analyse the source data with a critical mind. I'm not at all confident that those who have cherry picked some statistics and taken them out of context have done so out of a detailed analysis of technical data. Rather, they have seen these misinterpretations published by pseudo science websites and dutifully parroted them on forums like this. It is far from an accidental misreading of the data which is why this behaviour is so egregious.

[Jeffr2]

1 hour ago, Airalee said:

Very interesting.  Especially tables 15 and 16.

 

I really wish that I could get extremely granular data on every individual hospitalization and death.  Mostly co-morbidity related, and an included photograph (faces can be blurred to protect their identity) as there have been reports in the past of “perfectly healthy” younger people who died but then it turned out that they were morbidly obese and just hadn’t been diagnosed yet with their pre-existing conditions.

Why? The data is very clear. Get vaccinated and help put this pandemic behind us. Don't spread misinformation. It just makes things worse.

[onthedarkside]

A post commenting on moderation has been removed, along with a reply, per forum rules.

 

"Do not comment on moderation publicly in the open forum; this includes individual actions, and specific or general policies and issues. This also includes posting a negative emoticon in response to a public notice made by a moderator. 

 

You may send a PM to a moderator to discuss individual actions or email support (at) ASEANNOW.com to discuss moderation policy."

[Atlantis]

On 1/29/2022 at 3:28 PM, Ryan754326 said:

The reason I think it’s relevant is because if we’re going to force vaccines on those who don’t want them, then we should also be forcing lifestyle changes on the large part of the population who was responsible for straining our healthcare system before covid came along, and still continues to make up the bulk of those who die of covid, along with all of their other co-morbidities. 
 

It’s the same group of people who were already dying of heart attacks, strokes, and diabetes, who are now dying of covid in the greatest numbers, by far. 
 

The idea that vaccines alone can fix this problem, while people just continue on eating themselves to death, is not realistic. 

Ryan, in reference to your consistently calm, lengthy posts from pages back, I just want to say: you have the patience of a saint. You really do. I increasingly lack the time to log on and post, but I (and many others I know) frequently still read these forums when we have a spare minute or two.

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by onthedarkside
trolling / comments removed

[LA8RAT]

24 minutes ago, Atlantis said:

Ryan, in reference to your consistently calm, lengthy posts from pages back, I just want to say: you have the patience of a saint. You really do. I increasingly lack the time to log on and post, but I (and many others I know) frequently still read these forums when we have a spare minute or two.
 

What an excellent post.. I fully agree????

[onthedarkside]

Portions of a post with trolling / flame comments toward fellow forum members have been removed, along with a reply.

 

"You will respect fellow members and post in a civil manner. No personal attacks, hateful or insulting towards other members, (flaming)."

 

Also two social media posts from a disallowed source:

 

"Social Media content is acceptable in most social forums. However, in factual areas such as news, current affairs and health topics, it cannot be used unless it is from a credible news media source or government agency, and must include a weblink to the original source."

 

 

[watthong]

One thing I've learned variant after variant, that any on-going argument with the anti-vax crowd is akin to watching the new Korean zombie series on Netflix, "All of Us Are Dead." The script's "logic" - for lack of a better word - is, as to be expected, totally twisted and branching out in all directions in order to fill out the whole season, and yet if you're not aware, you'll get sucked into it.

 

Right now mandates are the only "strategy" - I say strategy because the tools, ie vaccines are readily available - to save ourselves, those of us who don't want to get infected and will do our best to protect ourselves and other human beings from this virus - for logic and reason have failed against the colluding forces of cynicism, politics, ignorance and the "my body, myself" school of thought -  and I'm glad city and state authorities are slowly awakening themselves, however rudely, to that fact.

 

It's kinda late but better than never.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 1/29/2022 at 9:39 PM, placeholder said:

Another reason that your comment is invalid is that it takes no account of degree of difficulty. It's a struggle every day for the obese to lose weight.

That's correct, so it would be a good idea to educate kids that it's not a good idea to become obese in the first place, so don't eat junk food and exercise more. It's not helped by banning fat shaming and allowing kids to think obesity is normal.

Unfortunately if it is even taught ( which I doubt ) in schools it's not working very well, from the kids I see around.

[cdemundo]

On 1/29/2022 at 1:08 AM, fjb 24 said:

Anyone with a pulse probably has concluded by now that mRNA therapies provide protection albeit temporary due to vaccine waning effect as evidenced by the plethora of boosters recommended, up to 4 now with an omicron specific concoction in the works.

 

As far as I know there has only been one booster.

You are saying 4, you can't be that bad at counting.

What is the line between exaggerating and lying?

[Chomper Higgot]

On 1/29/2022 at 2:45 PM, Ryan754326 said:

I’m not talking about your relative. I’m talking about the people who knew the risks of smoking from the very beginning and chose to do it anyway, and then expected to be saved at any cost to the system when they predictably got cancer. 
These people have been taking up space in hospitals forever. I’m sorry if you think it’s disgusting that I don’t have much sympathy for them. 
 

 

Smoking is not the topic of this discussion, but it is an example of the impact sustained misinformation campaigns have on the promotion of public health.

 

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

On 1/29/2022 at 2:59 PM, Ryan754326 said:

What difference does it make? People with lifestyle related illnesses have been straining the system forever, and they represent a very large portion of those who are dying from covid as well. 
 

Without those people, the system could cope much easier. That’s all there is to it. 

All the more reason to vaccinate the unvaccinated and reduce the stress on the healthcare systems.

 

 

[ozimoron]

On 1/29/2022 at 6:29 PM, Ryan754326 said:

What difference does it make? People with lifestyle related illnesses have been straining the system forever, and they represent a very large portion of those who are dying from covid as well. 
 

Without those people, the system could cope much easier. That’s all there is to it. 

I would agree that people with lifestyle related diseases should be forced to pay more for their treatments where it can be shown that those illnesses were potentially under the control of those who have them. It isn't always the case. People who smoke, drink alcohol and refuse vaccines are clearly going to strain the system somewhat.

 

Mitigation can occur in several forms. They can include better education, higher taxes and insurance premiums or rationalized care in favour of those who have taken steps to minimize their risk. All of these options should be on the table and all used where appropriate.

 

Sanctions against people spreading misinformation should also be implemented. There isn't an unfettered right to absolute freedom of speech. It's just a matter of having an independent and educated organisation to adjudicate. If we can't have that we can't progress as a society. Misinformation is the biggest challenge we face in tackling intolerance, pandemics and climate change.

Edited January 31, 2022 by ozimoron

[Chomper Higgot]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

That's correct, so it would be a good idea to educate kids that it's not a good idea to become obese in the first place, so don't eat junk food and exercise more. It's not helped by banning fat shaming and allowing kids to think obesity is normal.

Unfortunately if it is even taught ( which I doubt ) in schools it's not working very well, from the kids I see around.

How about tackling the advertising and other misinformation campaigns that market unhealthy foods and undermine health messaging?