2 hours ago, Ryan754326 said:

The reason I think it’s relevant is because if we’re going to force vaccines on those who don’t want them, then we should also be forcing lifestyle changes on the large part of the population who was responsible for straining our healthcare system before covid came along, and still continues to make up the bulk of those who die of covid, along with all of their other co-morbidities. 
 

It’s the same group of people who were already dying of heart attacks, strokes, and diabetes, who are now dying of covid in the greatest numbers, by far. 
 

The idea that vaccines alone can fix this problem, while people just continue on eating themselves to death, is not realistic. 

Whataboutary

Multiple misinformation posts on the following issue have been removed along with replies:

 

https://www.aap.com.au/factcheck/england-covid-deaths-data-misused-in-false-vaccine-efficacy-claim/

 

England COVID deaths data misused in false vaccine efficacy claim

(Australian Associated Press)

 

"WHAT WAS CLAIMED

COVID-19 data from England suggests that vaccinated people have a higher risk of dying with the virus than the unvaccinated.

OUR VERDICT

False. A fair analysis of the data shows unvaccinated people are far more likely to die with COVID-19 across all age groups."

 

"Some social media posts are pointing to COVID-19 data from England as proof that vaccinated people are at a higher risk of death than unvaccinated people.

 

However, the claim relies on a misleading interpretation of the country’s official COVID-19 figures. While it is true that the majority of people dying with COVID-19 in England are vaccinated, this can be put down to high vaccination rates – particularly in the most vulnerable segments of the community.

 

When the figures are weighed for the numbers of people in the vaccinated and unvaccinated cohorts, the data shows the unvaccinated are far more likely to die after testing positive for the coronavirus."

 

(more)

 

And similar here as relates to the same issue raised in Scotland:

 

"Currently, 86.5% of adults in Scotland are fully vaccinated. As these numbers show, vaccinated people far outnumber unvaccinated people. As such, we cannot directly compare the number of deaths in one group to the other, as the Exposé article did. In order to determine whether the vaccines are effective at reducing the risk of death, we need to instead compare the proportion of deaths between the vaccinated and unvaccinated groups, as explained by biostatistician Lucy D’Agostino McGowan in this tweet. This method accounts for the large disparity in the size of the two groups."

 

https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/vaccines-are-highly-effective-at-reducing-the-risk-of-death-from-covid-19-the-expose-misleadingly-claims-the-uk-vaccination-campaign-has-failed/

 

 

15 hours ago, gamb00ler said:

The answer is not that complicated.  By pushing an individual to eat better and exercising you improve only that one individuals outcome.  In pushing for vaccinations, the health of the individual PLUS those around them is improved.  In other words killing/wounding several birds with one shot.

Additionally, vaccination takes an afternoon.

Interventions to eat better and to exercise take years.

They are complex problems that don't respond finger wagging.

12 hours ago, fjb 24 said:

Anyone with a pulse probably has concluded by now that mRNA therapies provide protection albeit temporary due to vaccine waning effect as evidenced by the plethora of boosters recommended, up to 4 now with an omicron specific concoction in the works.

 

Anyone with basic knowledge of the statistics knows that while protection against transmission sharply declines in all forms of covid vaccination, mRNA vaccines still provide a very high level of protection against serious illness and death. In fact, the highest level of all vaccines. Why is it so difficult for anti-vaxxers to understand the effectiveness against transmission is one thing and protection against serious illness and death quite another? Why is it so difficult for ant-vaxxers to understand the difference between antibody protection on the one hand and T-Cell and B-Cell immunity on the other?

On 1/28/2022 at 3:35 PM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

It would be funny, if it wasn't so pathetically sad.

 

Scientists and researchers, the vast majority honest and ethical, base their conclusions on the results of their research and evidence and facts, as best as they can ascertain them. And when the research results or the virus changes, then they change to reflect that.

 

On the other hand, the COVID deniers and vaccine skeptics often live in evidence and fact-free worlds of ginned up conspiracy theories and unproven flights of fancy dreamed up by folks huddled in their basements reading and then re-sharing Telegram and Parler posts, or grasping at the 1% fringe loonies in the science and medical fields. That's their version of doing their own research.

 

Some strong words there, sir. I will remind you of them in a few weeks when this whole charade has collapsed..

On 1/28/2022 at 3:13 PM, placeholder said:

This, of course, is just another conspiracy theory Apparently, to your way of thinking, most of the virologists and epidemiologists in the world are turning out tons of fake results of research due to their political beliefs or for some other dark motive. Do you have any idea of how crazy your kind of thinking is? 

I will get back to you in due time.

14 hours ago, fjb 24 said:

Anyone with a pulse probably has concluded by now that mRNA therapies provide protection albeit temporary due to vaccine waning effect as evidenced by the plethora of boosters recommended, up to 4 now with an omicron specific concoction in the works.

 

Why do you feel the need to downplay and the best weapon we have in this war?  One that works and has saved millions of lives.  Bizarre.

2 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

Some strong words there, sir. I will remind you of them in a few weeks when this whole charade has collapsed..

Charade?  What are you talking about? 

1 hour ago, rattlesnake said:

I will get back to you in due time.

Please don't.  Please.

10 hours ago, onthedarkside said:

Multiple misinformation posts on the following issue have been removed along with replies:

 

https://www.aap.com.au/factcheck/england-covid-deaths-data-misused-in-false-vaccine-efficacy-claim/

 

England COVID deaths data misused in false vaccine efficacy claim

(Australian Associated Press)

 

"WHAT WAS CLAIMED

COVID-19 data from England suggests that vaccinated people have a higher risk of dying with the virus than the unvaccinated.

OUR VERDICT

False. A fair analysis of the data shows unvaccinated people are far more likely to die with COVID-19 across all age groups."

 

"Some social media posts are pointing to COVID-19 data from England as proof that vaccinated people are at a higher risk of death than unvaccinated people.

 

However, the claim relies on a misleading interpretation of the country’s official COVID-19 figures. While it is true that the majority of people dying with COVID-19 in England are vaccinated, this can be put down to high vaccination rates – particularly in the most vulnerable segments of the community.

 

When the figures are weighed for the numbers of people in the vaccinated and unvaccinated cohorts, the data shows the unvaccinated are far more likely to die after testing positive for the coronavirus."

 

(more)

 

And similar here as relates to the same issue raised in Scotland:

 

"Currently, 86.5% of adults in Scotland are fully vaccinated. As these numbers show, vaccinated people far outnumber unvaccinated people. As such, we cannot directly compare the number of deaths in one group to the other, as the Exposé article did. In order to determine whether the vaccines are effective at reducing the risk of death, we need to instead compare the proportion of deaths between the vaccinated and unvaccinated groups, as explained by biostatistician Lucy D’Agostino McGowan in this tweet. This method accounts for the large disparity in the size of the two groups."

 

https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/vaccines-are-highly-effective-at-reducing-the-risk-of-death-from-covid-19-the-expose-misleadingly-claims-the-uk-vaccination-campaign-has-failed/

 

 

Very good articles!  I've seen some members here post this nonsense, but had a hard time sussing out what was really going on.  Just looking at a bunch of data didn't make sense.

 

Sad some do this.  Not sure why they feel the need to do this.  It does nothing but endanger others and help extend this pandemic.  Kinda like the nutters who reference VAERS for proof of thousands of deaths due to the vaccines.  Luckily, that's been debunked thoroughly. LOL

 

Great articles, thanks!

2 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

Some strong words there, sir. I will remind you of them in a few weeks when this whole charade has collapsed..

Thanks for providing more proof of your conspiratorial mindset. Apparently, all the research that has appeared in the most rigorous and prestigious of scientific journals, the govt statistics on deaths of the vaccinated vs. the unvaccinated were all inventions made up to further a nefarious plan to...well, you can plug in whatever nefarious goals that were the purpose of this sinister venture. I recall not long ago some folks were predicting another nefarious plot would be exposed in the USA. Of course the difference between their claim and yours is that they had to contend with a definite deadline. One member of thaivisa.com actually said they would bet their life on it!

 

You have the advantage of such folks is that there is no external deadline that will prove the truth or falsity of your statements. Unless of course, you would care to share such a date with us. And if, by such a date, no such definitive proof has emerged, will you concede that your belief was a false one? Or is this going to be like the return of Jesus which has been confidently predicted repeatedly for the last 2 Millenia? And the longer he takes to return, the more some people's faith is strengthened?

*Deleted post edited out*

 

Also worth to read:

https://publichealthscotland.scot/media/11223/22-01-19-covid19-winter_publication_report.pdf

8 minutes ago, Saanim said:

Also worth to read

Yeah, I see that.

Table's 15 & 16.

Nothing misleading in the raw data.

20 minutes ago, fjb 24 said:

Yeah, I see that.

Table's 15 & 16.

Nothing misleading in the raw data.

https://www.aap.com.au/factcheck/england-covid-deaths-data-misused-in-false-vaccine-efficacy-claim/

46 minutes ago, fjb 24 said:

This is all well and fine, but unless you can prove that the data (specifically Table 12(a) and 12(b) in the UK-HSA weekly surveillance reports are incorrect or false, then the numbers reflected in the recently deleted posts enumerating the data for deaths, hospitalizations etc stand. I at no time make any claim of the death rates based on risk, population, age groups,  etc., I am merely stating, (regurgitating the data within the UK-HSA reports) that of the 5,387 deaths listed in Table 12(b) that 1,142 (22%) were unvaccinated, 1,941 (36%) were fully vaccinated and 2,124 (39.4%) were fully vaccinated & 3rd dose booster. Where do I mention or make a "false claim" Please show me.

These are real, raw numbers, not some false claims or misleading claims unless truth, facts, data is somehow construed as "misleading" in some bizarre manner here in your world. But, I say it's down to just a bunch of data no one wants to hear.

For those who don't like the data contained within the reports I submitted, then don't read it, but to call real raw data misleading is ludicrous and you know it.

I am not saying that vaccinated people have a higher risk of dying or are more likely to die than un-vaccinated, I am simply making an observation of some recently reported covid death statistics, presenting and commenting on them here.

Fair enough, no suggestions of death risks, Ve, conspiracy rants, etc.

So, what really is the problem. Say it like it is.

Your desperation is showing by grasping at straws now, it's a clear sign.

It’s been explained to you numerous times.

 

And yet still you persist with your false representation of the UK data.

 

 

 

 

 

35 minutes ago, Saanim said:

Also worth to read:

https://publichealthscotland.scot/media/11223/22-01-19-covid19-winter_publication_report.pdf

Have you got something to say about the report you linked or do you expect the rest of us to read all 65 pages while trying to guess what your point is?

 

17 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Have you got something to say about the report you linked or do you expect the rest of us to read all 65 pages while trying to guess what your point is?

Their point is to continue to attempt to discredit COVID vaccinations. And since they can't do it with any legitimate, credible information, they've taken to posting links to government reports and statistics in veiled attempts to misrepresent what those statistics actually mean.

 

From the Kaiser Family Foundation in the U.S.:

 

"We find that since June 2021 approximately 163,000 lives would have been saved with vaccinations. Most of these preventable deaths occurred well after vaccines became available. In September 2021 alone, approximately 51,000 people’s lives likely would have been saved if they had chosen to get vaccinated. In November 2021, over 29,000 COVID-19 deaths likely would have been averted with vaccines."

 

 

 

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/brief/covid19-and-other-leading-causes-of-death-in-the-us/

 

1 minute ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Their point is to continue to attempt to discredit COVID vaccinations. And since they can't do it with any legitimate, credible information, they've taken to posting links to government reports and statistics in veiled attempts to misrepresent what those statistics actually mean.

 

From the Kaiser Family Foundation in the U.S.:

 

"We find that since June 2021 approximately 163,000 lives would have been saved with vaccinations. Most of these preventable deaths occurred well after vaccines became available. In September 2021 alone, approximately 51,000 people’s lives likely would have been saved if they had chosen to get vaccinated. In November 2021, over 29,000 COVID-19 deaths likely would have been averted with vaccines."

 

 

 

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/brief/covid19-and-other-leading-causes-of-death-in-the-us/

 

Just in the US, some 3,000 are dying every day.  A majority are unvaccinated.  Boggles my mind why anyone would refuse the vaccine.  Kinda like playing Russian roulette.

7 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Just in the US, some 3,000 are dying every day.  A majority are unvaccinated.  Boggles my mind why anyone would refuse the vaccine.  Kinda like playing Russian roulette.

 

"The current 7-day moving average of new deaths (2,288) has increased 25.1% compared with the previous 7-day moving average (1,829). As of January 26, 2022, a total of 873,957 COVID-19 deaths have been reported in the United States."

 

 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/index.html

 

Because of the pervasiveness of the Omicron variant and the unfortunately large share of the population that remains unvaccinated, daily COVID deaths in the U.S. right now are at their second highest peak ever, eclipsed only by the late 2020-early 2021 spike that began just before vaccines first became available.

 

So much for "it's mild" and "it's just a cold."

 

 

 

 

 

11 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Just in the US, some 3,000 are dying every day.  A majority are unvaccinated.  Boggles my mind why anyone would refuse the vaccine.  Kinda like playing Russian roulette.

We all make decisions on the information we receive, people surrounded by misinformation will make misinformed decisions.

 

Misinformation is driving vaccine refusal and hence directly resulting in vast numbers of unnecessary serious illnesses, hospitalizations and deaths.

 

This begs a question. 
 

What drives people to actively spread misinformation knowing the outcome of doing so?

 

 

From the U.S. CDC -- Jan. 28, 2022

 

"Two new CDC reports show that people who are up to date with their COVID-19 vaccines have the highest amount of protection against both the Delta and Omicron variants.^1,2 One report found that, compared to up-to-date adults, unvaccinated adults had five times the risk of infection and more than 50 times the risk of COVID-19-associated death."

 

 

 

"A second report found that a third dose (either an additional primary dose or booster dose) of an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine (Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna) was highly effective at preventing emergency and urgent care visits and hospitalizations related to COVID-19."

 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/index.html

 

41 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Just in the US, some 3,000 are dying every day.  A majority are unvaccinated.  Boggles my mind why anyone would refuse the vaccine.  Kinda like playing Russian roulette.

Just realized, Jeff, you also were correct in your 3,000 daily COVID deaths number you posted above for the U.S. My chart from the CDC was based on a 7-day rolling average of deaths, and thus had the 2,200+ number for the past week. But you're right that COVID deaths on some individual single days have topped the 3,000 mark lately... sadly... The 7 day average figures always trail behind the single day numbers.

 

 

 

 

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#trends_dailydeaths

 

If you look at the daily totals, much like Thailand, some states don't report or update their COVID death data over the weekends, so those delayed totals end up getting piled into the weekday totals the following week.

 

30 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

From the U.S. CDC -- Jan. 28, 2022

 

"Two new CDC reports show that people who are up to date with their COVID-19 vaccines have the highest amount of protection against both the Delta and Omicron variants.^1,2 One report found that, compared to up-to-date adults, unvaccinated adults had five times the risk of infection and more than 50 times the risk of COVID-19-associated death."

 

 

 

"A second report found that a third dose (either an additional primary dose or booster dose) of an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine (Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna) was highly effective at preventing emergency and urgent care visits and hospitalizations related to COVID-19."

 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/index.html

 

Excellent information.  I follow this very closely as I'm about to embark on a trip overseas.  So, need to stay up to date on what's going on.  It changes so often that you head starts to spin!!!!

 

Thank you

3 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

It’s been explained to you numerous times.

 

And yet still you persist with your false representation of the UK data.

 

 

 

 

 

Of course, he's being disingenuous. Since his posts have been eliminated we can't go back and read what he wrote. But we do know that his presentation of facts was incomplete. That he didn't offer the graphs contained in the same report that showed the  percentages by age of the vaccinated. Without that information the information offered was useless. I did offer that information and with a simple analysis showed that it proved that the unvaccinated still ran a much higher risk for death from covid. Even now, in his latest posts, he won't confirm that the evidence in those reports shows unequivocally that not getting vaccinated puts one at greater risk for dying from covid.

Another post attempting to present misleading COVID death statistics has been removed. If the poster continues to post such info absent the proper context, a posting suspension will be forthcoming. You've been warned...

 

"Increased age remains a significant predictor of increased risk of a severe outcome, but the protective effects of vaccination remain apparent for every age group. • ..

 

In the period since 26 November 2021, the number of fully vaccinated people with severe outcomes is reflective of the high number in the community who are fully vaccinated.

 

However, the proportion of fully vaccinated cases who experience severe outcomes is still lower than that for un-vaccinated people in every age group, demonstrating the effectiveness of vaccines to protect against severe outcomes"

 

https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/covid-19/Documents/covid-19-surveillance-report-20220113.pdf

6 hours ago, Saanim said:

Also worth to read:

https://publichealthscotland.scot/media/11223/22-01-19-covid19-winter_publication_report.pdf

Very interesting.  Especially tables 15 and 16.

 

I really wish that I could get extremely granular data on every individual hospitalization and death.  Mostly co-morbidity related, and an included photograph (faces can be blurred to protect their identity) as there have been reports in the past of “perfectly healthy” younger people who died but then it turned out that they were morbidly obese and just hadn’t been diagnosed yet with their pre-existing conditions.

5 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

We all make decisions on the information we receive, people surrounded by misinformation will make misinformed decisions.

 

Misinformation is driving vaccine refusal and hence directly resulting in vast numbers of unnecessary serious illnesses, hospitalizations and deaths.

 

This begs a question. 
 

What drives people to actively spread misinformation knowing the outcome of doing so?

 

 

A toxic mix of politics and psychosis. Especially when you consider that the majority of anti vaxers on this board are vaccinated.

 

Some posters here continue to post government COVID statistics taken out of context and without the accompany explanations that the issuing government agencies provide regarding them. The apparent attempt is to discredit COVID vaccines and cast doubts over their effectiveness.

 

So, in response to a prior post above, I'm going to repost a previously posted fact check article that explained, via one example, how these statistics are being misused, and why  posts like some posted previously here are misleading and incorrect, even though the statistics themselves are accurate.

 

"Currently, 86.5% of adults in Scotland are fully vaccinated. As these numbers show, vaccinated people far outnumber unvaccinated people. As such, we cannot directly compare the number of deaths in one group to the other, as the Exposé article did. In order to determine whether the vaccines are effective at reducing the risk of death, we need to instead compare the proportion of deaths between the vaccinated and unvaccinated groups, as explained by biostatistician Lucy D’Agostino McGowan in this tweet. This method accounts for the large disparity in the size of the two groups."

 

https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/vaccines-are-highly-effective-at-reducing-the-risk-of-death-from-covid-19-the-expose-misleadingly-claims-the-uk-vaccination-campaign-has-failed/

 

Any further such posts that attempt to misuse those statistics, including by not also providing the accurate context and conclusions expressed by the government agencies issuing them, will be removed as misleading.

1 hour ago, Airalee said:

Very interesting.  Especially tables 15 and 16.

 

I really wish that I could get extremely granular data on every individual hospitalization and death.  Mostly co-morbidity related, and an included photograph (faces can be blurred to protect their identity) as there have been reports in the past of “perfectly healthy” younger people who died but then it turned out that they were morbidly obese and just hadn’t been diagnosed yet with their pre-existing conditions.

What's particularly interesting is the link under table 16 that leads to this:

"Interpretation of data

There is a large risk of misinterpretation of the data presented in this section due to the complexities of vaccination data. A blog post by the UK Health Security Agency (UKHSA), formerly Public Health England (PHE), provides a comprehensive explanation of the biases and potential areas for misinterpretation of such data. They state that a simple comparison of COVID-19 case rates in those who are vaccinated and unvaccinated should not be used to assess how effective a vaccine is in preventing serious health outcomes, because there are a number of differences between the groups, other than the vaccine itself, and these biases mean that you cannot use the rates to determine how well the vaccines work."

https://publichealthscotland.scot/media/11223/22-01-19-covid19-winter_publication_report.pdf