The Silent, Vaccinated, Impatient Majority

[thaibeachlovers]

On 1/20/2022 at 8:08 AM, Chelseafan said:

 

We have vaccines for mumps, rubella, chicken pox, measles and other airborne viruses, I don't see any reason not to have the Covid vaccine unless you are medically exempt. It's not discrimination, it's common sense.

 

 

Then remove the immunity from prosecution that vaccine suppliers have, and make it a law. If people are to be forced to have a medication against their will, they must have the ability to sue for compensation if they are adversely impacted by that medication.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 1/20/2022 at 9:36 AM, Airalee said:

Covid-19: Fact check—how many patients in hospital are unvaccinated?
 

“The Intensive Care National Audit and Research Centre (ICNARC), which has been monitoring activity throughout the pandemic, provides information on admissions to intensive care.3 Its latest report, published on 31 December, showed that the proportion of patients admitted to critical care in December 2021 with confirmed covid-19 who were unvaccinated was 61%.”

 

https://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o5

39% is not an insignificant number.

[Chomper Higgot]

7 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

IMO not so much believing they know more, but more not trusting scientists. IMO doesn't matter how long they studied, if they are dependent on grants from people or institutions that require a certain outcome.

Unless they are self funded, they are beholden to those that pay them.

 

You clearly have no idea how scientific  research works.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

39% is not an insignificant number.

It’s a meaningless number unless presented in the context to give it meaning.

[thaibeachlovers]

4 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

You clearly have no idea how scientific  research works.

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

It’s a meaningless number unless presented in the context to give it meaning.

Did you not read the post I quoted? That is the context.

 

[Lacessit]

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

39% is not an insignificant number.

Let's say you have a population of 10 million people, 80% of whom are vaccinated. You have 39 hospital cases in the vaccinated part of the population, and 61 coming from the unvaccinated.

If you are vaccinated, your chance of having to go to hospital is 0.00049%

If you are unvaccinated, the percentage rises to 0.0031.

In other words, you are 6 times more likely to be taking up a hospital bed, through your own selfish choice.

Probability is not your strong point.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

23 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Did you not read the post I quoted? That is the context.

 

Yes, I did. 
 

Your extraction of a single percentage is still complete out of context and has no meaning.

 

So it’s also statistics you don’t understand or, you choose to misrepresent.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

19 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Let's say you have a population of 10 million people, 80% of whom are vaccinated. You have 39 hospital cases in the vaccinated part of the population, and 61 coming from the unvaccinated.

If you are vaccinated, your chance of having to go to hospital is 0.00049%

If you are unvaccinated, the percentage rises to 0.0031.

In other words, you are 6 times more likely to be taking up a hospital bed, through your own selfish choice.

Probability is not your strong point.

 

It’s been explained on this forum numerous times. 
 

Thise who don’t understand it are choosing not to understand it.

[Lacessit]

36 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Which is why I specifically included "MOST" in my post.

 

I think the thing that turns people off all of them is because of the big stick the government is waving at us, rather than using persuasion. People don't like being threatened by employees ( government is paid for by taxes ergo we employ them ).

IMO if they think that threats are the only way to go, there must be something not right about what the government is trying to force them to have.

Also, many people just don't trust the government.

I can understand many people don't trust the government, I don't either. Having said that, conflating sound medical advice with statements coming from politicians whose only focus is getting re-elected is dishonest and misleading.

Choices have consequences. If one chooses to be unvaccinated, there are organisations who will discriminate against such people, if only to protect themselves. Can you imagine the legal liabilities an aged care facility would create for itself if it let unvaccinated staff tend to the residents?

If you don't want to be threatened with a stick, what sort of carrot do you suggest governments use? What sort of message would that send to the majority of people who acted responsibly?

[thaibeachlovers]

55 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

If one chooses to be unvaccinated, there are organisations who will discriminate against such people, if only to protect themselves.

I was speaking to a pregnant woman the other day. She can't get midwife coverage now as so many midwives refuse to be vaccinated and are not allowed to work. Who suffers from that?

 

57 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

If you don't want to be threatened with a stick, what sort of carrot do you suggest governments use? What sort of message would that send to the majority of people who acted responsibly?

I'm not a criminal and I am a taxpayer. I expect to be treated with respect by my employees in the government, not harassed and treated badly.

 

They just had a vaccine, it isn't a big deal unless one doesn't want it. I have no idea of the "message" you reference.

[rattlesnake]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

Let's say you have a population of 10 million people, 80% of whom are vaccinated. You have 39 hospital cases in the vaccinated part of the population, and 61 coming from the unvaccinated.

If you are vaccinated, your chance of having to go to hospital is 0.00049%

If you are unvaccinated, the percentage rises to 0.0031.

In other words, you are 6 times more likely to be taking up a hospital bed, through your own selfish choice.

Probability is not your strong point.

 

The problem with this reasoning is that it does not take into account age and health (nor does the bmj article referred to above). If I am in the unvaccinated group but young and fit, I am not 6 times more likely to end up in hospital than a vaccinated 60-year old diabetic. It is a fallacious argument.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, rattlesnake said:

The problem with this reasoning is that it does not take into account age and health (nor does the bmj article referred to above). If I am in the unvaccinated group but young and fit, I am not 6 times more likely to end up in hospital than a vaccinated 60-year old diabetic. It is a fallacious argument.

Isn't selective reasoning wonderful? One gets to post all sorts of things that are easily refuted, but few bother to do so.

It's good to see a couple of posters standing up to the usual suspects.

[James105]

"Call for an immediate investigation into the increasing death rate amongst 15-19 year-old males since May of this year"

 

https://www.hartgroup.org/press-release/

 

"At the High Court on Thursday 13th January, the ONS (Office for National Statistics) confirmed that there has been a significant rise in the death rate for adolescent males over the last eight months, compared to the same time period of 2015-2019.  There have been at least 65 extra deaths in England and Wales,  though the figure may be higher due to reporting delays for coroners cases.  During the same time frame there were only 2 deaths involving Covid."

 

Whats different about 2021 compared to any other year prior to this that may be relevant to what is causing this?  Anyone have any ideas? 

[utalkin2me]

So, the biggest news in days by far is the uk dropping all Covid restrictions. Even masks. 
 

I see it nowhere in this forum. Maybe I overlooked it. I just figured that would be the most discussed topic. Is it possible that information is not allowed here? This would not surprise me. 

[thaibeachlovers]

7 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

So, the biggest news in days by far is the uk dropping all Covid restrictions. Even masks. 
 

I see it nowhere in this forum. Maybe I overlooked it. I just figured that would be the most discussed topic. Is it possible that information is not allowed here? This would not surprise me. 

Indeed, surprising it's not posted as a new thread. Very good news indeed.

I hope NZ government sees the light and follows Britain's lead.

 

 

Just googled it

 

https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-boris-johnson-business-health-london-59417842d49e95ef556eb9b0352144dd

UK lifts COVID restrictions, says omicron wave ‘has peaked’

Edited January 21, 2022 by thaibeachlovers

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

So, the biggest news in days by far is the uk dropping all Covid restrictions. Even masks. 
 

I see it nowhere in this forum. Maybe I overlooked it. I just figured that would be the most discussed topic. Is it possible that information is not allowed here? This would not surprise me. 

Nothing wrong with doing that if your hospitals can cope, same is being done in the Netherlands at a slower pace. But don't forget most people have been vaccinated in those countries and thus show less people on the ICU.

 

Omricon is less bad then expected a great thing lets hope there won't be an other mutation for the worse.

 

 

[robblok]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Goes against the message of "we must all be fearful". Not surprised it's not mentioned.

Actually I think most people love the news, i know I do in my country they are slowly opening up again too. Research has shown that the models about omricon were wrong. In my country we opened up too early before and had trouble so now the models were to negative. 

 

It was all admitted and discussed in the news and now the goverment is slowly opening up and watching what happens. Fearful no, watchful yes. 

 

Not sure why anyone would want restrictions when they are not needed to keep hospitals empty. I for one think its great news. Slowly other countries will follow if their hospitals can cope.

 

That is the reason why countries lock up as not to overburden the health system. Now with the effects of omricon milder that can be done add to that high vaccination levels. 

[utalkin2me]

Variants are created, in most cases, from…. Genetic variation within populations… you know, I have blonde hair, she has red hair tryin to splain this as I would to a 3 year old bc of the question I got

 

That genetic variation within the population then get “acted upon” by our medicines. Nothing unnatural happens without vaccines or medicines, that’s absurd to claim. 
 

When the virus’s genetic variation is now acting upon a vaccinated population, only certain strains can make it (assuming the vaccine is actually doing its job). These strains then become much much more prominent. When before this strain was only 1% of the population, now it’s 50%and rising, because of the induced treatments (ie vaccines). 
 

That’s how this works. And you see, I do t need bogus links to “back” me, because I actually understand stuff. 
 

The problem is, you won’t hear whati just wrote on the 8 o’clock news. But that doesn’t mean it’s not the truth, you see how that works?

Edited January 21, 2022 by utalkin2me

[Chomper Higgot]

16 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

The problem with this reasoning is that it does not take into account age and health (nor does the bmj article referred to above). If I am in the unvaccinated group but young and fit, I am not 6 times more likely to end up in hospital than a vaccinated 60-year old diabetic. It is a fallacious argument.

Your problem with that reasoning is based on your own misunderstanding/misinterpretation of the risk/benefit data.

 

Nobody claims you are 6 times more likely to end up in hospital than is a vaccinated 60 year old.

 

The vaccines reduce the individual risk for each individual vaccinated.

 

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

Variants are created, in most cases, from…. Genetic variation within populations… you know, I have blonde hair, she has red hair tryin to splain this as I would to a 3 year old bc of the question I got

 

That genetic variation within the population then get “acted upon” by our medicines. Nothing unnatural happens without vaccines or medicines, that’s absurd to claim. 
 

When the virus’s genetic variation is now acting upon a vaccinated population, only certain strains can make it (assuming the vaccine is actually doing its job). These strains then become much much more prominent. When before this strain was only 1% of the population, now it’s 50%and rising, because of the induced treatments (ie vaccines). 
 

That’s how this works. And you see, I do t need bogus links to “back” me, because I actually understand stuff. 
 

The problem is, you won’t hear whati just wrote on the 8 o’clock news. But that doesn’t mean it’s not the truth, you see how that works?

You actually understand stuff ????  

[Chomper Higgot]

5 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

Variants are created, in most cases, from…. Genetic variation within populations… you know, I have blonde hair, she has red hair tryin to splain this as I would to a 3 year old bc of the question I got

 

That genetic variation within the population then get “acted upon” by our medicines. Nothing unnatural happens without vaccines or medicines, that’s absurd to claim. 
 

When the virus’s genetic variation is now acting upon a vaccinated population, only certain strains can make it (assuming the vaccine is actually doing its job). These strains then become much much more prominent. When before this strain was only 1% of the population, now it’s 50%and rising, because of the induced treatments (ie vaccines). 
 

That’s how this works. And you see, I do t need bogus links to “back” me, because I actually understand stuff. 
 

The problem is, you won’t hear whati just wrote on the 8 o’clock news. But that doesn’t mean it’s not the truth, you see how that works?

Dunning-Krueger comes to mind.

 

 

[utalkin2me]

And the thing to note is, even though I have basically proven to any intelligent person vaccines cause the strains we are seeing, I don’t go around telling people not to vax. So, the situation is actually the reverse of what most think, and it’s the unvaxxed suffering at the “selfishness” (as they put it, not me) of the vaxxed. But I don’t complain, because I am a rational human being, and realize people have choice. And I also, of course, realize that in many cases it is actually a very good decision to vax, esp for high risk etc. you don’t get the same sort of logic on the other side of the argument, thatis all emotionally based swill 

Edited January 21, 2022 by utalkin2me

[Chomper Higgot]

Just now, utalkin2me said:

And the thing to note is, even though I have basically proven to any intelligent person vaccines cause the strains we are seeing, I don’t go around telling people not to vax. So, the situation is actually the reverse of what most think, and it’s the unvaxxed suffering at the “selfishness” (as they put it, not me) of the vaxxed. But I don’t complain, because I am a rational human being, and realize people have choice

And now circular logic.

 

 

[utalkin2me]

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

And now circular logic.

 

 

Nice come backs bro. I commend you, you are fighting a no win fight so I agree there is not much to say. 

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

Nice come backs bro. I commend you, you are fighting a no win fight so I agree there is not much to say. 

Indeed arguing with you is a no win as fools cant be reasoned with. Its like having an argument with a religious person a sect member. Totally brainwashed. If you were so right your arguments would be supported by science. 

[placeholder]

23 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

Variants are created, in most cases, from…. Genetic variation within populations… you know, I have blonde hair, she has red hair tryin to splain this as I would to a 3 year old bc of the question I got

 

That genetic variation within the population then get “acted upon” by our medicines. Nothing unnatural happens without vaccines or medicines, that’s absurd to claim. 
 

When the virus’s genetic variation is now acting upon a vaccinated population, only certain strains can make it (assuming the vaccine is actually doing its job). These strains then become much much more prominent. When before this strain was only 1% of the population, now it’s 50%and rising, because of the induced treatments (ie vaccines). 
 

That’s how this works. And you see, I do t need bogus links to “back” me, because I actually understand stuff. 
 

The problem is, you won’t hear whati just wrote on the 8 o’clock news. But that doesn’t mean it’s not the truth, you see how that works?

Clearly you don't understand how the rise of mutant variants works at all. For one thing, if a mutant variant is more transmissible it's inevitable that it will arise at the expense of other variants. But the variants are not created in the first place because of vaccinations. And while a vaccination may somewhat accelerate the rise of a mutant in a vaccinated population, (the more transmissible a variant is, the less the effect of vaccination) vaccination is utterly irrelevant to those populations which are unvaccinated. And currently, that's most of the world. In other words, your comments betray a profound lack of understanding of evolution and basic arithmetic..

Edited January 21, 2022 by placeholder

[placeholder]

6 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

Forgive me gentleman, I’m doing my laundry.

 

I actually had my laundry make a couple of more compelling arguments than I see here. 
 

Anyone wanna answer why the vax is not mandated if it’s so “safe and effective”. You know, mandated like all other proven (over time) safe and effective vaccines. Maybe someone can ping me when someone does in fact take a shot at this. 
 

Think about it. The vaccines have ALL THE SUPPORT. From government, from big pharma, from all the msm. Why on earth wouldn’t they mandate it? They have all the power and influence. There must be a reason or two! 

Actually, your question is answered easily enough: Most countries don't mandate vaccinations unequivocally. What alternative universe do you hail from?

But it's good to see you've apparently abandoned your nonsense claim that vaccinations are responsible for the rise of the Omicron variant.

[placeholder]

 

3 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

“Safe and effective” vaccines are mandated. You have a bunch of them in you right now. Ones that are not mandated ain’t so safe, they must not be so effective. At least not yet. Guinea pig comes to mind. But hey, if that don’t make you think nothing will. 

Really? Which vaccines would those be? And don't vaccination rules vary by nation? So how would you even know that I have mandated vaccines inside of me?

And I see that you have no answer for the fact that we know of several viral pathogens that result in severe, even fatal latent long term effects. How many latent long term effects are known for vaccines? I'll make it easy for you. That number is 0. So what's more likely? That covid-19 will result in latent long term effects or the current covid vaccines?

And I see you still have no defense for your ridiculous claim that vaccination is responsible for the rise of Omicron.

[Skallywag]

28 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

“Safe and effective” vaccines are mandated. You have a bunch of them in you right now. Ones that are not mandated ain’t so safe, they must not be so effective.

In the US I thought this was true until I moved to Alaska.  Many parents have to homeschool their children as they are not vaccinated.  Public school mandate that you are vaccinated, but as I said, many parents I know of homeschool as they do not want their children vaccinated.  Never heard of that when I was attending public schools in Arizona as a child, but it is true.  Some parents were native americans, some were religious and claimed it was against their religion