Are we just going to have to live with unvaccinated people across Thailand?

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, Aussie999 said:

SMH, you still miss my point.

Shake your head all you want, I definitely get your point but I see its easier for you to dismiss my post with a throw away statement rather than respond to its content.

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, Aussie999 said:

What affect, do unvaccinated people, have on any business? If you cannot answer with "NO," then please tell us why.

Pretty simple, an unvaccinated person poses a greater risk of transmitting the virus to others than a vaccinated person. 

[Aussie999]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

Businesses are places where people congregate in close proximity, especially pubs, clubs, cafes and food outlets.  The staff have a heightened risk of becoming infected and too ill to work. The public have greater confidence of not being infected when they go there and so fewer will tend to avoid the place.

It is the staffs, and managements, responsibility, to be vaccinated, as for customers, so what, let them mix, as they do on crowded buses, trains, etc. Why is it so hard to understand?

[Aussie999]

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

Shake your head all you want, I definitely get your point but I see its easier for you to dismiss my post with a throw away statement rather than respond to its content.

No mate, you simply did NOT answer what I asked.

[Aussie999]

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

Pretty simple, an unvaccinated person poses a greater risk of transmitting the virus to others than a vaccinated person. 

So what, if what you say, is correct,  then they would pass it on to the unvaccinated... OH, um, even vaccinated people can pass it on.

[Bkk Brian]

7 minutes ago, Aussie999 said:

So what, if what you say, is correct,  then they would pass it on to the unvaccinated... OH, um, even vaccinated people can pass it on.

The risk of catching covid while vaccinated is real, we all know vaccines do not protect you 100%. So yes unvaccinated people can pass on the virus to vaccinated. 

 

However getting vaccinated reduces the risk of infection and so onward transmission.

 

"There may be additional benefit, beyond that due to prevention of infection, if some of those individuals who become infected despite vaccination are also at a reduced risk of transmitting (for example, because of reduced duration or level of viral shedding). Several studies have provided evidence of reduced risk of household transmission from vaccinated cases compared to unvaccinated cases"

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1050721/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-4.pdf

 

 

[Saanim]

2 hours ago, ozimoron said:

Businesses are places where people congregate in close proximity, especially pubs, clubs, cafes and food outlets. 

There are no other businesses in Thailand? Other than the entertainment, leisure, catering ones? Wondering who is sitting (in close proximity) in the factories, offices, towers, transportation?  But perhaps such businesses are not in a view from Pattaya...   

[canuckamuck]

16 hours ago, ThLT said:

Yeah, Omicron appeared in the later part of 2021. But the previous variants such as Delta were also more contagious than their predecessors. 

 

https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/5-things-to-know-delta-variant-covid

Just point to the place on the chart where the vaccines began to save the world.

Also notice the yellow section representing the least vaccinated region

[FarFlungFalang]

23 minutes ago, Casesrisingpanic said:

A very divisive subject. 

 

But then the crowd that says if you don't get vaccinated, you are evil, or ignorant or just want people to die, seem to ignore natural immunity, tcell levels and the actual statistics and facts about who is at high risk and who isn't. 

 

If you are still in the crowd that believes lockdowns were effective you are proven wrong. 

 

The destruction that has been brought on by these ridiculous overreactions will be felt for years. The devastating effects on people's lives and businesses are exponentially worse than the virus ever could cause. 

 

The type of response that was instituted must never be accepted ever again. 

 

 

A recent study published by the Johns Hopkins University seems to back up observations.

 

"The use of lockdowns is a unique feature of the COVID-19 pandemic. Lockdowns have not been used to such a large extent during any of the pandemics of the past century. However, lockdowns during the initial phase of the COVID-19 pandemic have had devastating effects. They have contributed to reducing economic activity, raising unemployment, reducing schooling, causing political unrest, contributing to domestic violence, and undermining liberal democracy. These costs to society must be compared to the benefits of lockdowns, which our meta-analysis has shown are marginal at best. Such a standard benefit-cost calculation leads to a strong conclusion: lockdowns should be rejected out of hand as a pandemic policy instrument."

 

https://sites.krieger.jhu.edu/iae/files/2022/01/A-Literature-Review-and-Meta-Analysis-of-the-Effects-of-Lockdowns-on-COVID-19-Mortality.pdf

[Aussie999]

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

The risk of catching covid while vaccinated is real, we all know vaccines do not protect you 100%. So yes unvaccinated people can pass on the virus to vaccinated. 

 

However getting vaccinated reduces the risk of infection and so onward transmission.

 

"There may be additional benefit, beyond that due to prevention of infection, if some of those individuals who become infected despite vaccination are also at a reduced risk of transmitting (for example, because of reduced duration or level of viral shedding). Several studies have provided evidence of reduced risk of household transmission from vaccinated cases compared to unvaccinated cases"

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1050721/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-4.pdf

 

 

Um, yes, I agree...I didn't disagree, you certainly didn't disagree with me...lol

[placeholder]

52 minutes ago, canuckamuck said:

Just point to the place on the chart where the vaccines began to save the world.

Also notice the yellow section representing the least vaccinated region

As has been repeatedly pointed out, official govt statistic in less developed nations are very unreliable. So the absurdly low rate in Africa is what's called a statistical artefact. It does not accurately represent reality. Take Nigeria,the the countrie with the highest population in Africa, for example:

https://covid19.healthdata.org/nigeria?view=cumulative-deaths&tab=trend

The orange line is the official figure. The green line what the epidemiologists at IHME estimate.

Not only that but most African nations have a very young population. Nigeria's median age is 18. So naturally they will have a much lower mortality rate.

Some African nations, like Tanzania, actually denied that covid even existed there. Even after its president and chief denialist died from it.

[pikao]

24 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Some African nations, like Tanzania, actually deny that covid even exists there. Even after its president and chief denialist died from it.

Nope

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, pikao said:

Nope

Well, you're right. Sometime before you posted this I corrected my post to put it in the past tense. Tanzania no longer denies it but for a long while did.

 

[ozimoron]

2 hours ago, Aussie999 said:

It is the staffs, and managements, responsibility, to be vaccinated, as for customers, so what, let them mix, as they do on crowded buses, trains, etc. Why is it so hard to understand?

Hang on, didn't you say that vaccines don't stop people from getting infected?

[pikao]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

Well, you're right. Sometime before you posted this I corrected my post to put it in the past tense. Tanzania no longer denies it but for a long while did.

 

John Magufuli died of a heart disease...they say

[ozimoron]

1 hour ago, Saanim said:

There are no other businesses in Thailand? Other than the entertainment, leisure, catering ones? Wondering who is sitting (in close proximity) in the factories, offices, towers, transportation?  But perhaps such businesses are not in a view from Pattaya...   

was I supposed to name every different kind of business in Thailand or just give a few examples of the kind of businesses most at risk?

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, pikao said:

John Magufuli died of a heart disease...they say

Back when covid denialsm was the rule there.

https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1052

[Saanim]

9 minutes ago, pikao said:

John Magufuli died of a heart disease...they say

Quote

Tanzania’s president dies after mysterious illness

Covid-denier Magufuli had been out of public view for two weeks while his ministers insisted he was healthy

 

Tanzania’s president John Magufuli, who long denied that Covid-19 posed a threat to his country, has died after a mysterious two-week illness, the vice-president said on Wednesday night. Magufuli, 61, disappeared from public view on February 27, raising speculation that he had contracted Covid-19, though Kassim Majaliwa, the prime minister, insisted last week that the president was “healthy and working hard”. At least four people were arrested for spreading rumours the president was ill, part of a pattern of repression against journalists who criticised Magufuli or his policies.

https://www.ft.com/content/5ed3f984-788b-4e8b-903d-c4a7e351136f

 

 

[pedro01]

One thing to also consider here.

 

The frequency of vaccinations is a potential issue. It's been raised by EU regulators. There's an article on Bloomberg here: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-11/repeat-booster-shots-risk-overloading-immune-system-ema-says#:~:text=European Union regulators warned that,to the European Medicines Agency.

 

So it might not come down to whether they work or not in the end. It'll come down to whether our immune systems will become comprimised.

 

Pfizer and BioNTech are currently in a clinical trial if an Omicron specific vaccine - which is 3 doses. Apparently (according to CNN), Pfizer are already manufacturing it (https://edition.cnn.com/2022/01/25/health/pfizer-biontech-omicron-vaccine-trial/index.html). According to CNN, Pfizer are producing this at their own risk - pending approval.

 

So they are manufacturing a vaccine before it's approved and it's 3 shots. You make up your own mind:

• Pfizer are being very generous taking that risk
• They know they will get approval and that govts will force it on people
• Or a toss up - they've looked at the investment and probabiliites

 

But doesn't make sense to me to produce a product you cannot sell. I am not talking about creating a product you can't sell - I mean going into production and producing millions of doses seems strange. 

 

[placeholder]

7 hours ago, DoctorB said:

 It's not Fox News or social media numpties that undermine faith in the vaccines, it's the remorseless insistence on petty-fogging (and expensive) restrictions, regardless of ones vaccination status that does it.

Really? We know that opposition to vaccinations and such is highly correlated with the the political opinions of voters. Yet, it's somehow the fault of governments? 

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, Aussie999 said:

Um, yes, I agree...I didn't disagree, you certainly didn't disagree with me...lol

Well great we both agree that there is a higher risk of the unvaccinated transmitting the virus. 

 

Now, do you understand why some business owners deny entry to the non vaccinated? Do you think some vaccinated customers who like to keep themselves safe by not mixing in crowded buses/trains etc and instead apply sensible measures due to concerns for their own health would welcome an environment like that, where everyone is vaccinated so reducing the risk a little?

[heybruce]

3 hours ago, Aussie999 said:

It is the staffs, and managements, responsibility, to be vaccinated, as for customers, so what, let them mix, as they do on crowded buses, trains, etc. Why is it so hard to understand?

It is the owners and managers responsibility to not expose customers and employees to unnecessary risks.  If it is the opinion of the owners/managers that only allowing vaccinated customers onto the premises best fulfills this responsibility, then they should not allow the unvaccinated into the business.

 

You do agree that "it's a free country" applies to people running private businesses, don't you?

[heybruce]

2 hours ago, canuckamuck said:

Just point to the place on the chart where the vaccines began to save the world.

Also notice the yellow section representing the least vaccinated region

That is like asking "How did defeating Hitler benefit the world?".  One can speculate on how bad things might be if Hitler had won or if there were no vaccines, but we can never know for sure.

 

Do you think Australia is better off for not being invaded and occupied by Japan?  Can you prove it?

 

BTW:  The yellow region represents the areas where the death count is most uncertain, though certainly much higher than indicated.

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00104-8

[johnnybangkok]

2 hours ago, FarFlungFalang said:

A recent study published by the Johns Hopkins University seems to back up observations.

 

"The use of lockdowns is a unique feature of the COVID-19 pandemic. Lockdowns have not been used to such a large extent during any of the pandemics of the past century. However, lockdowns during the initial phase of the COVID-19 pandemic have had devastating effects. They have contributed to reducing economic activity, raising unemployment, reducing schooling, causing political unrest, contributing to domestic violence, and undermining liberal democracy. These costs to society must be compared to the benefits of lockdowns, which our meta-analysis has shown are marginal at best. Such a standard benefit-cost calculation leads to a strong conclusion: lockdowns should be rejected out of hand as a pandemic policy instrument."

 

https://sites.krieger.jhu.edu/iae/files/2022/01/A-Literature-Review-and-Meta-Analysis-of-the-Effects-of-Lockdowns-on-COVID-19-Mortality.pdf

Absolute nonsense. 

 

When trying to unjustify lockdowns, perhaps don't quote 2 economists who are only looking at the impact from a predominately financial perspective or who have a VERY biased viewpoint - 'Unlike much of the media-cited research on COVID-19 thus far, the new Johns Hopkins paper is by economists rather than by epidemiologists. Lead author Steve Hanke is a senior fellow at the libertarian Cato Institute and a contributor to the right-leaning National Review. 

 

There are many studies out there that have extrapolated out the numbers for Covid deaths and the general consensus is that instead of the 5.75 million who have died so far, the number of deaths would have been more like 20, 30, 40 million. That's Spanish flu numbers.

 

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/06/09/872441984/modelers-suggest-pandemic-lockdowns-saved-millions-from-dying-of-covid-19

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-52968523

 

And in direct rebuttal to the study you have posted -'Researchers excluded nearly 83 studies for consideration — including some that supported the efficacy of lockdowns. The most notable of which is a 2020 study published in the journal Nature that concluded that European lockdowns helped avert between 2.8 and 3.5 million deaths in the first months of the pandemic'.   https://nationalpost.com/news/world/johns-hopkins-university-study-covid-19-lockdowns

 

I do howver agree with Jennifer Grant, an infectious diseases physician at the University of British Columbia, who said “It made little sense to prevent young people from living normally because they are at very low risk of getting very sick, but have been very, very heavily hit by the impacts of lockdown,” she said.

 

Everything is easier with the benefit of hindsight but there wasn't much of that around at the beginning of the pandemic with countries 'damned if they did, damned if they didn't'. In future, the ones at risk should be isolated and looked after and yes, those at low risk allowed to get on with their normal lives. Easy to say now but much harder to impliment with much confidence back then.

 

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, pedro01 said:

Pfizer and BioNTech are currently in a clinical trial if an Omicron specific vaccine - which is 3 doses. Apparently (according to CNN), Pfizer are already manufacturing it (https://edition.cnn.com/2022/01/25/health/pfizer-biontech-omicron-vaccine-trial/index.html). According to CNN, Pfizer are producing this at their own risk - pending approval.

 

So they are manufacturing a vaccine before it's approved and it's 3 shots. You make up your own mind:

• Pfizer are being very generous taking that risk
• They know they will get approval and that govts will force it on people
• Or a toss up - they've looked at the investment and probabiliites

 

But doesn't make sense to me to produce a product you cannot sell. I am not talking about creating a product you can't sell - I mean going into production and producing millions of doses seems strange. 

 

So - whether they are effective may be a moot point. Many people now have had 4 shots. This Pfizer vaccine may take that up to 7. 

 

How many is too many?

All vaccines that were previously manufactured had to undergo clinical trials before approval, there was never any quarantine they would pass the criteria required which WHO had at the time set as 50% effective.

 

The new Omicron specific variant version is being divided in 3 separate cohort studies as in the link you provided. It would not take your vaccine intake to 7 as you misleadingly imply.

 

"Participants in the first cohort have received two doses of the current Pfizer Covid-19 vaccine at least 90 to 180 days before the study. They will receive one or two doses of the Omicron-specific vaccine.

 

Participants in the second cohort have received three doses of the current Pfizer Covid-19 vaccine at least 90 to 180 days prior to the study. They will receive one dose of the current Pfizer Covid-19 vaccine or the Omicron-specific vaccine."

 

Participants in the third cohort have not received any Covid-19 vaccine. They will receive three doses of the Omicron-specific vaccine."

 

 

[zzaa09]

5 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Pretty simple, an unvaccinated person poses a greater risk of transmitting the virus to others than a vaccinated person. 

Yet, the simple scientific evidence says not. 

That is, unless one is dousing in the particular Kool-Aid. 

The art and practice of sleight-of-hand and manipulation - repeated often and loud enough - is a comfort for some.

[Bkk Brian]

9 minutes ago, zzaa09 said:

Yet, the simple scientific evidence says not. 

That is, unless one is dousing in the particular Kool-Aid. 

The art and practice of sleight-of-hand and manipulation - repeated often and loud enough - is a comfort for some.

Evidence already posted in this thread you looked, if your not infected you can't pass it on and this is without boosters:

 

https://www.healthdata.org/covid/covid-19-vaccine-efficacy-summary

[pikao]

1 hour ago, Saanim said:

Tanzania’s president John Magufuli, who long denied that Covid-19 posed a threat to his country, has died after a mysterious two-week illness,

Correct, that was the official version. In the articles I've read they made a connection to an underlying heart problem that Mr. Magufuli suffered from for a long time. "Mysterious" had to be explained. I just wanted to state that he didn't die from Covid

[SunnyinBangrak]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

Really? We know that opposition to vaccinations and such is highly correlated with the the political opinions of voters. Yet, it's somehow the fault of governments? 

Yes it is. Along with big tech and the legacy media. After they pushed misinformation and censored truthful and accurate voices for the last few years all trust is gone. I lost my ability to post on social media for posting an opinion that turned out to be 100% true. Jack Dorsey may have apologized after his site kicked off the mother of all misinformation campaigns that led to censors banning those with common sense, but most media and censors did not.

Look at CNN's viewing figures and you will see the trust for the "liberal" media is gone.

[Saanim]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

Really? We know that opposition to vaccinations and such is highly correlated with the the political opinions of voters. Yet, it's somehow the fault of governments? 

But why is it so?  Does it mean that the people have always the same opinion as per their favorite party directives, not as per their common sense and/or a scientific knowledge?