China-made diesel locomotives handed over to Thailand

[sirineou]

10 minutes ago, Morakot said:

They are new and apparently have the following specification:

 

* Diesel-electric locomotives with German-made engines

* Axel load 16 tonnes

* TP [Automatic Train Protection] brake system

* Compatible European Train Control System (ETCS) level 1

 

 

https://www.nationthailand.com/in-focus/40011931

 

The problem is that with only the "short line" in Monopoly, you only collect $25 rent, even with all of them the most you can get is $200

[Saanim]

58 minutes ago, sirineou said:

wireless charging

Is it possible, wireless charging for supercharging?

[sirineou]

41 minutes ago, Saanim said:

Is it possible, wireless charging for supercharging?

Not sure, I know there is a lot of research on the subject , and some pilot programs, I remember reading about a proposal of burying induction elements in stretches' of highway to charge EV's as they drive.  Google the subject , there is a lot of interesting literature on the subject.   

[RJRS1301]

On 2/5/2022 at 1:35 PM, VocalNeal said:

and where is the money for installing those?

well the belt and road initative , which these are part of. The ifrastructure supplied to many countries which they will never be able to pay for.

Default on the loan and interest repayments, and the infrastructure become part of the CCP property and investments

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by RJRS1301

[josephbloggs]

35 minutes ago, RJRS1301 said:

well the belt and road initative , which these are part of. The ifrastructure supplied to many countries which they will never be able to pay for.

Default on the loan and interest repayments, and the infrastructure become part of the CCP property and investments

 

These are nothing to do with BRI.  These are 50 new diesel units that the SRT ordered to replace 48 existing ones that were built around 1963 and are well overdue retirement.  They put it out to tender and CRRT won.  They are not gifted by China, there is no loan from China, they are paid for and then Thailand uses them.  There is nothing for the Chinese to come and claim.

[Capella]

On 2/5/2022 at 11:39 AM, jacko45k said:

Other than the requirement to carry fuel and generate power to transport that fuel! Don't they use electric trains all over the world now, and have invested in the infrastructure? Is that not regarded as a modern approach? Japan might be an example. Also hard to burn diesel fuel without pollution. 

How will the Hi-Speed railways be powered in Thailand, the tracks are being constructed now along the side of the old tracks, and causing a lot of aggravation  to road users in the Pattaya area. 

In Thailand, all electric trains would do is shift the pollution to a power station. Thailand generates 97% of its electricity using fossil fuels - oil, coal and gas. 

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by Capella

[spidermike007]

3 hours ago, Morakot said:

They are new and apparently have the following specification:

 

* Diesel-electric locomotives with German-made engines

* Axel load 16 tonnes

* TP [Automatic Train Protection] brake system

* Compatible European Train Control System (ETCS) level 1

 

 

https://www.nationthailand.com/in-focus/40011931

 

Impressive. If all those specs are accurate, good on Thailand. Always refreshing to see a decision here based on merit. 

[zzaa09]

4 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

Impressive. If all those specs are accurate, good on Thailand. Always refreshing to see a decision here based on merit. 

Ahhh....but you missed the subliminal sleight-of-hand aspect. 

[Albert Zweistein]

10 hours ago, sirineou said:

A train who's propulsion  is provided by electric motors is an electric train.

  There two choices  in providing electricity to those electric motors. One is to have it transmitted to the electric train via overhead wires or a third rail, and the other is to have it  either stored or generated in board, both these options have their challenges.

Overhead transmission requires a certain amount of infustracture that  either topography and or a country's economy might not make it technically and economically viable.  For many countries at their particular level of economic development and topographical challenges such as Thailand, on board electrical generation is the best option.

  Several on board generation options have been considered, but given the possibility off a catastrophic accident as  it often happens with trains, diesel is so far the best option. 

Does Diesel pollute?

it does to an extend but not more than most of the pickup trucks all those in this forum that have an issue with this acquisition drive.  It is also worth to consider that remorse electric generation and transmission has a pollution component.    

I don't mean to be didactic, but  I hope the above explanation put's this issue to bed????  

You are absolutely wrong, you might call them electric trains but the rest of the world calls them diesel electric : edisontechcenter.org/diesel-electriclocomotives and up.com/diesel-electriclocomotives.

No need to teach me about the infrastructure needed for overhead power supply as I live in a country with one of the most electrified railway systems in the world.

Your remark about pollution I consider as silly, we should seriously start at least try to reduce pollution and not produce more and more items on the world that ingrease pollution and compare them to pick up truck like you do, why not compare them to motorbikes or airplanes or humans as we all breath CO2.

[sirineou]

39 minutes ago, Albert Zweistein said:

You are absolutely wrong, you might call them electric trains but the rest of the world calls them diesel electric : edisontechcenter.org/diesel-electriclocomotives and up.com/diesel-electriclocomotives.

No need to teach me about the infrastructure needed for overhead power supply as I live in a country with one of the most electrified railway systems in the world.

Your remark about pollution I consider as silly, we should seriously start at least try to reduce pollution and not produce more and more items on the world that ingrease pollution and compare them to pick up truck like you do, why not compare them to motorbikes or airplanes or humans as we all breath CO2.

Yes indeed, they call them diesel electric. Diesel is what kind of electric trains they are., If they were battery operated they would be Battery electric, if they derived their electric power from a fuel cell they would be fuel cell/electric, or perhaps pixie dust electric, but one thing they all have in common. They are all electric.

as to the rest of your post I will let it stand on it's own.   

[Saanim]

1 hour ago, Capella said:

In Thailand, all electric trains would do is shift the pollution to a power station. Thailand generates 97% of its electricity using fossil fuels - oil, coal and gas. 

 

Not really so: the oil is very low (1 - 2 %), most of energy source is natural gas (recently recognized by EU as "green energy"), the hydros bring also something and there are also some renewables, a nuclear one is planned...  

 

[Golden Triangle]

9 hours ago, Saanim said:

Interesting how such topic can bring so many comments within few hours. Wondering whether some of the posters ever have taken ride on a Thai train?

Yes I have, I have travelled extensively on Thai railways, I'm not a rail buff or fanatic but I found the experience of using the SRT to be economic and a lot of fun,windows that won't close, a real hoot in the monsoon season ???? ceiling fans that hardly turn & a squat toilet on a moving train with a big hole to look at the tracks & no bog roll ( that was in my early days ) ????

 

I have also done the Orient Express from Singapore to Bangkok so seen both ends of the spectrum ????????????????

[Burma Bill]

2 hours ago, Golden Triangle said:

I have travelled extensively on Thai railways

Like your good self, so have I, often between Chiang Mai or Lampang to/from Bangkok Hua Lamphong. These were in those earlier days before budget airlines started flying from CNX. Your descriptions were spot on. I used to enjoy freshly cooked meals with a few beers in the old wooden dining cars with their bottled gas burners to heat the woks, before climbing into my bunk bed (overnight journeys). What an experience for you on the Eastern Orient Express. The most fantastic railway journey for me was on the Reunification Express from Ho Chi Minh to Hanoi in Vietnam, 3days/2 nights on board - great if time is immaterial to you!

Edited February 6, 2022 by Burma Bill
additional information

[Damrongsak]

On 2/4/2022 at 7:51 PM, seedy said:

Not surprised to see the EV Fanatics jump all over this.

As if overhead power lines get their 'juice' from fairy dust.

To further your education :

fanatic

1. A person marked or motivated by an extreme, unreasoning enthusiasm, as for a cause.

No fairy dust.  According to Dave Barry, Pulitzer Prize winning commentator:

“Electricity is actually made up of extremely tiny particles called electrons, that you cannot see with the naked eye unless you have been drinking.”

He goes on to say electrons "...are very small objects that carpet manufacturers weave into carpets so they will attract dirt..." 

 

Follow me for more amazing scientific facts.

[Damrongsak]

14 hours ago, josephbloggs said:

That is true.  Here are the actual units, taken from the first handover ceremony:  ...

I didn't see anyone pointing at the trains.  ????

[Capella]

8 hours ago, Saanim said:

Not really so: the oil is very low (1 - 2 %), most of energy source is natural gas (recently recognized by EU as "green energy"), the hydros bring also something and there are also some renewables, a nuclear one is planned...  

 

Natural gas is touted as green, but it isn't. It's a fossil fuel hydrocarbon that emits CO2 when it burns. The only advantage is that it doesn't emit soot and other particles in the same way coal and oil do, although scrubbing of exhaust mitigates this.

 

Hydro power only makes up less than 3% of Thailand’s energy mix, so it's insignificant. No nuclear power stations have been commissioned yet.

 

Back to my original point, electrifying Thailand's rail network would have no benefit on pollution. 

[jacko45k]

12 hours ago, Capella said:

In Thailand, all electric trains would do is shift the pollution to a power station. Thailand generates 97% of its electricity using fossil fuels - oil, coal and gas. 

 

I believe natural gas is a main component.... and where oil is burned efficiency is improved with combined cycle. It is simply my recollection of old diesel trains in UK... belching out black smoke.... whether it is a generator or engine, diesel burning is quite polluting and Thailand used to buy the cheap and dirtier stuff from Russia.  Pardon the pun, but is it a smoke screen?

So move the pollution to some centralized place, where something can be done about it... scrubbers, modern lower temperature burning. It can also be away from population centres, a train can never be that. Can we rely on Chinese technology to supply clean alternatives. They hardly set an example in that respect, and they have moved the pollution to their generating locations, building many new coal fired plants. 

Edited February 6, 2022 by jacko45k

[sirineou]

11 hours ago, Albert Zweistein said:

Your remark about pollution I consider as silly, we should seriously start at least try to reduce pollution and not produce more and more items on the world that ingrease pollution and compare them to pick up truck like you do, why not compare them to motorbikes or airplanes or humans as we all breath CO2.

So let me see if I understand this correctly.

Thailand should invest billions of dollars to electrify it's railroad system so that the few diesel electric  trains that travel the system would not pollute the air burning diesel.,  while everyone burns garbage, the sugar cane fields, and grass on the side of the road? 

Such investment should remove the equivelar of a few tractor trail truck pollution from the air, certainly a worth while investment? 

Perhaps  they can  finance the electrification by raising the price of the train fare, maybe 30.000 bht for a trip from BKK to Khon Kaen could help make such worth while endeavor  financially viable. But they should keep the diesel electric engines so that they can hep push the electrified trains when there is a power failure and or disruption in the transmission lines. ????

[jojothai]

On 2/5/2022 at 7:01 AM, jaiyen said:

That IS the new Thai high speed train !

Nothing to do with the high speed.

People need to understand that thailand is spending a huge amount of effort and money on upgrading its rail system to dual track with better trains.

[Capella]

4 hours ago, jacko45k said:

I believe natural gas is a main component.... and where oil is burned efficiency is improved with combined cycle. It is simply my recollection of old diesel trains in UK... belching out black smoke.... whether it is a generator or engine, diesel burning is quite polluting and Thailand used to buy the cheap and dirtier stuff from Russia.  Pardon the pun, but is it a smoke screen?

So move the pollution to some centralized place, where something can be done about it... scrubbers, modern lower temperature burning. It can also be away from population centres, a train can never be that. Can we rely on Chinese technology to supply clean alternatives. They hardly set an example in that respect, and they have moved the pollution to their generating locations, building many new coal fired plants. 

Natural gas only accounts for only a third of Thailand's power generation, the remaining two thirds coming from dirty old coal and oil. Scrubbers in power stations can remove soot, NOx and other pollutants, just as catalytic converters do in vehicles, but they don't remove greenhouse gases like CO2 - which natural gas, coal and oil all emit into the atmosphere when burned. Electrified trains use an awful lot of power, several Megawatts of it, so losses in transmission lines, cost of building them, etc, would make any pollution gains insignificant when compared with other ways of reducing pollution.

 

Not sure about modern Chinese locomotives being dirty either - I too always equate Chinese technology with shoddy quality and dirt, but it really is advancing rapidly. They export around the world, which means that they're likely lifting their game rapidly in that regard, having to confirm to international standards on exhaust emissions. 

[jacko45k]

5 hours ago, Capella said:

Electrified trains use an awful lot of power, several Megawatts of it,

One third as you state is a fair proportion....but where are you getting this information from? Your numbers differ.....

Thai electrical generating capacity is conventional thermal. Oil-fired plants have been replaced by natural gas, which in 2018 generated 65% of Thailand's electricity. Coal-fired plants produce an additional 20%, with the remainder from biomass, hydro, and biogas.

 

Well yes, so these generator trains do use a lot of power too.... , plus burn diesel... and have to waste power carrying it about. Fuel distribution itself is a big polluter. Bloody great tankers all over the place killing people in smaller vehicles... fuel tankers on trains too. China is not doing very well domestically as far as pollution is concerned....

A report published this month by researchers at China's State Grid Corporation said energy security concerns mean the country is likely to build as much as 150 gigawatts (GW) of new coal-fired power capacity over the 2021-2025 period, bringing the total to 1,230 GW......

Perhaps Thailand can buy electricity from China one day......

[SmartyMarty]

Will they be like the ones NZ bought from China that were filled with asbestos and had to be scrapped?

[Capella]

2 hours ago, jacko45k said:

One third as you state is a fair proportion....but where are you getting this information from? Your numbers differ.....

Thai electrical generating capacity is conventional thermal. Oil-fired plants have been replaced by natural gas, which in 2018 generated 65% of Thailand's electricity. Coal-fired plants produce an additional 20%, with the remainder from biomass, hydro, and biogas.

 

Well yes, so these generator trains do use a lot of power too.... , plus burn diesel... and have to waste power carrying it about. Fuel distribution itself is a big polluter. Bloody great tankers all over the place killing people in smaller vehicles... fuel tankers on trains too. China is not doing very well domestically as far as pollution is concerned....

A report published this month by researchers at China's State Grid Corporation said energy security concerns mean the country is likely to build as much as 150 gigawatts (GW) of new coal-fired power capacity over the 2021-2025 period, bringing the total to 1,230 GW......

Perhaps Thailand can buy electricity from China one day......

From here: https://ourworldindata.org/energy/country/thailand - scroll down and you'll see Thailand's energy mix - the numbers I quoted are for 2020, i.e. recently. You'll see that coal and oil make up almost two thirds of Thailand's power generation, something I was surprised to see.

 

Many countries import and export electricity - for example, Britain buys (mainly nuclear generated) electricity from France to make up it's domestic capacity shortfall for appearing green and demolishing nuclear and coal fired power stations - wind turbines only work when ther is wind, and in the winter there sometimes isn't any. Similarly, the west buys goods that it used to make that are now made in China using dirty heavy industry - the west having closed down most of its own heavy industry. All in all, a rearrangement of smokestacks around the world.

 

Edited February 7, 2022 by Capella

[Albert Zweistein]

17 hours ago, sirineou said:

So let me see if I understand this correctly.

Thailand should invest billions of dollars to electrify it's railroad system so that the few diesel electric  trains that travel the system would not pollute the air burning diesel.,  while everyone burns garbage, the sugar cane fields, and grass on the side of the road? 

Such investment should remove the equivelar of a few tractor trail truck pollution from the air, certainly a worth while investment? 

Perhaps  they can  finance the electrification by raising the price of the train fare, maybe 30.000 bht for a trip from BKK to Khon Kaen could help make such worth while endeavor  financially viable. But they should keep the diesel electric engines so that they can hep push the electrified trains when there is a power failure and or disruption in the transmission lines. ????

Why shouldn't they invest billions of $, aren't they the hub of everything and prepared to spend billions in submarines, fighter jets and aircraft carriers but the environment they don't care about.

Yes also the hub of garbage and sugar cane fields burning unfortunately.

Besides their brothers of the CCP are probably more than willing to help financing.

[josephbloggs]

19 minutes ago, Albert Zweistein said:

Why shouldn't they invest billions of $, aren't they the hub of everything and prepared to spend billions in submarines, fighter jets and aircraft carriers but the environment they don't care about.

Yes also the hub of garbage and sugar cane fields burning unfortunately.

Besides their brothers of the CCP are probably more than willing to help financing.

The UK hasn't electrified 60% of its network because it is uneconomical and the traffic doesn't justify it, yet it spends £40+ billion on defence.  So they should shift that defence spending to railways and spend billions on electrifying networks for the sake of it, right?

Anyway Thailand IS spending billions of dollars on modernising it's rail network, building 1000's of kms of dual track, replacing 48 ancient diesel locomotives with brand new ones, adding 100's of kms of electrified commuter rail in Bangkok, and building new high speed electric lines.

Not enough for you?  They should be electrifying the whole country overnight instead even though no other advanced country has ever done the same (although China probably comes closest)?  

Edited February 7, 2022 by josephbloggs

[Albert Zweistein]

4 hours ago, josephbloggs said:

The UK hasn't electrified 60% of its network because it is uneconomical and the traffic doesn't justify it, yet it spends £40+ billion on defence.  So they should shift that defence spending to railways and spend billions on electrifying networks for the sake of it, right?

Anyway Thailand IS spending billions of dollars on modernising it's rail network, building 1000's of kms of dual track, replacing 48 ancient diesel locomotives with brand new ones, adding 100's of kms of electrified commuter rail in Bangkok, and building new high speed electric lines.

Not enough for you?  They should be electrifying the whole country overnight instead even though no other advanced country has ever done the same (although China probably comes closest)?  

Sir, I think this topic is about the delivery of Chinees diesel locs to Thailand and not about the UK changing their budget from A to B and to be honest I really don't care about how and on what the pommies spend their budget.

Furthermore I am sure you are wrong about the billions of $ Thailand is spending on modernising and building 1000's of kms dual track. They are TALKING about it and this for decades already.

Today in the news the deal about the two second hand submarines coming from China, probably ending tied along the useless aircraft carrier. War toys seem more important than enything else.

[sirineou]

5 hours ago, Albert Zweistein said:

Why shouldn't they invest billions of $, aren't they the hub of everything and prepared to spend billions in submarines, fighter jets and aircraft carriers but the environment they don't care about.

Yes also the hub of garbage and sugar cane fields burning unfortunately.

Besides their brothers of the CCP are probably more than willing to help financing.

And this is for a 50 km stretch of the 4070 miles of the SRT line. 

"Thailand’s Transport Ministry has asked the national rail operator to assess the feasibility of electrifying a train route in the far south. A secretary with the ministry says the State Railway of Thailand (SRT) will evaluate whether electrification of the 50km link is viable. "

 

" The estimated cost of the electric connection is almost THB8 billion. This section of the southern Thailand line is part of a greater project also under consideration." 

https://12go.asia/en/post/2652/thai-rail-operator-considers-electrification-of-southern-link

Now think about it, How many trains travel the SRT line every day? How much pollution does every diesel electric engine contributes to the environment?

Is it more than three or four tractor tailor trucks ?

 Now put your self in an administration position and you have to make a decision concerning the allocation of limited recourses. In a country where pollution from burning is such that some times you cant go outside or see far, do you spend billions of these recourses to  remove the equivalent of a few tractor tailor trucks? 

would this be a cost affective solution? is the cost/benefited ratio positive? 

[ExpatOilWorker]

[jacko45k]

11 hours ago, Capella said:

Many countries import and export electricity - for example, Britain buys (mainly nuclear generated) electricity from France to make up it's domestic capacity shortfall for appearing green and demolishing nuclear and coal fired power stations - wind turbines only work when ther is wind, and in the winter there sometimes isn't any. Similarly, the west buys goods that it used to make that are now made in China using dirty heavy industry - the west having closed down most of its own heavy industry. All in all, a rearrangement of smokestacks around the world.

Yes, I agree very much with that... not a fan of wind turbines after talking to a friend who had one close to their home, and often flying over them in West UK, all expensively arranged in the sea and completely stationary. 

Turning our backs on nuclear was not the best decision, surely technology could have caught up with it and a truly viable, less polluting alternative has yet to emerge. UK is in a power mess, depending on France for electricity grieves me, and Europe's dependence on Russia for gas is problematic. 

[josephbloggs]

1 hour ago, Albert Zweistein said:

Sir, I think this topic is about the delivery of Chinees diesel locs to Thailand and not about the UK changing their budget from A to B and to be honest I really don't care about how and on what the pommies spend their budget.

Nice deflection.

 

Quote

Furthermore I am sure you are wrong about the billions of $ Thailand is spending on modernising and building 1000's of kms dual track. They are TALKING about it and this for decades already.

Sorry, it is actually happening after decades of little to no investment.

 

Quote

Today in the news the deal about the two second hand submarines coming from China, probably ending tied along the useless aircraft carrier. War toys seem more important than enything else.

Sir, I think this topic is about the delivery of Chinese diesel locs to Thailand and not about the offer of two second hand submarines nor about an aircraft carrier that was purchased 27 years ago (incredibly relevant to this story!), and to be honest I really don't care about how and on what the military spend their budget.