I just bought $200,000 of Bitcoin

[Sparktrader]

23 minutes ago, ukrules said:

Nothing lasts forever, however if it lasts longer than our lifetimes then it can be considered permanent, for us at least.

 

Take the fiat money system since it came off the gold standard, it's massively inflated at the flick of a pen, completely non tangible, most of it exists as numbers only stored inside computers and they can make as much of it as they want to whenever they need it.

Wasn't always this way - and it also will not last, not forever anyway.

 

They used to use seashells for currency as they were scarce, they always were and are now absolutely worthless yet people used them for quite a while, until something better came along and there's always something better coming along....

People said in 2012 it was doomed. At some point admit to be wrong.

[ukrules]

42 minutes ago, Sparktrader said:

People said in 2012 it was doomed. At some point admit to be wrong.

I think you miss my point. Bitcoin is the something better at this point in time, it may reign supreme for 100's of years before something better comes along, so far we're on year 13.

[Sparktrader]

Just now, ukrules said:

I think you miss my point. Bitcoin is the something better at this point in time, it may reign supreme for 100's of years before something better comes along, so far we're on year 13.

True. At some point it might be 2nd or  3rd best.

[ChrisP24]

When the Euro first came out in the 1990s, I was convinced that it was doomed to fail.  I was wrong about that, and I'm trying to keep an open mind about crypto.

[Neeranam]

4 hours ago, Longwood50 said:

THE ONLY WAY that someone makes money on crypto is if there is a bigger fool ready to buy it. 

Do you seriously think everyone who has bought BTC is a fool?

 

Hardly anyone has  lost when buying bitcoin, unless they bought at one cycle top and then sold it when it went down, without waiting a couple of years. 

It's actually very sad when old guys go on about crypto being a Ponzi.  I know who the fools are and they are not the people who bought Bitcoin. 

[Neeranam]

23 minutes ago, ChrisP24 said:

When the Euro first came out in the 1990s, I was convinced that it was doomed to fail.  I was wrong about that, and I'm trying to keep an open mind about crypto.

It is still early in its adoption but don't wait too long. 

[Neeranam]

4 hours ago, Longwood50 said:

I can tell you from my days at Merrill Lynch. You are identical to those who said the same thing about the dot.com stocks. 

Did you work for Merrill Lynch?

 

 

Do you mean Dotcom stocks like Amazon and Google? 

 

[Neeranam]

1 hour ago, ukrules said:

I think you miss my point. Bitcoin is the something better at this point in time, it may reign supreme for 100's of years before something better comes along, so far we're on year 13.

There are many better cryptos that BTC.  

[Sparktrader]

46 minutes ago, ChrisP24 said:

When the Euro first came out in the 1990s, I was convinced that it was doomed to fail.  I was wrong about that, and I'm trying to keep an open mind about crypto.

Good idea. World isnt black n white. Always play the numbers. 

 

You can always buy gold and btc. You dont have to pick 1.

 

 

[ChrisP24]

2 hours ago, Neeranam said:

It is still early in its adoption but don't wait too long. 

Neeranam, I'm respectfully curious as to why you are so vehemently against fiat currencies, while being so bullish on cryptocurrencies.  Both are artificial means of exchange that have value only as long as people accept them as having value.  The difference is that with fiat, governments  have a fundamental interest in keeping their currencies going, whereas with crypto it is a bit murkier as to what powers have an interest in making what happen, and for how long.  Over the past several years of course, several cryptos (Bitcoin, Etherium) have met with rapidly expanding adoption and resulting rapid increase in value, some others have gone boom and bust, some have skipped any boom and just gone bust, and others have been revealed as outright scams. 

 

As a store of value, my own opinion is that dollars, euros, Swiss francs, and other Western currencies will be more stable and reliable than crypto, because (simply) most other people also think so, national governments want them to stay relatively stable, and thus fiat will continue to be accepted as a means of exchange with relatively low fluctuation of value, and with inflation rates remaining low enough to where it'll remain possible and in fact easy to find investments denominated in those currencies yielding at or above that currency's inflation rate. 

 

Cryptos on the other hand have wildly fluctuating values as they evolve and gain (or lose) acceptance, become regulated (or banned), and the collective tide of peoples' opinions on their future ebbs and flows.   Cryptos are still speculative and thus a candidate for speculation, but not a stable investment.

 

So while one can hold most or all of one's stored wealth in crypto, that is living way, way up on the risk curve, many times more so than holding investments denominated in Western fiat.  Bitcoin and others may well quintuple or more from today's value relative to fiat, thus they are a speculation with a tremendous upside.  But they also have a tremendous downside and I would not want to depend on them for my grocery money.  Similarly, I doubt that OP Pravda would suffer any significant impact on lifestyle if the full $200k were lost.

 

With respect, what is wrong or inaccurate with this view?   

[lkn]

5 hours ago, ukrules said:

I think you miss my point. Bitcoin is the something better at this point in time, it may reign supreme for 100's of years before something better comes along, so far we're on year 13.

We are on year 13 and nobody in mainstream society accepts payment with bitcoins. How come, if it is better than the existing system?

 

It is a speculative asset that people buy on a few centralized exchanges, only to keep it on those same exchanges, and hope it appreciates in value. So from my point of view it has totally failed becoming a currency. And don’t give me that “store of value” story, because it has failed here as well. Store of value means the value should be constant, not go up or down 10-15% in a single day.

[ukrules]

1 hour ago, lkn said:

We are on year 13

I think you just answered your own question. Early days in a new era.

 

[lkn]

1 hour ago, ukrules said:

I think you just answered your own question. Early days in a new era.

So it is better than the current system, but no-one uses it, because it’s only as old as the iPhone? Yet, proponents has been telling us just how great it is almost daily for the last five or so years, but still, we can’t actually use it for anything besides speculation…

[lkn]

Here’s a lecture about just how great this technology is:

 

[Neeranam]

9 hours ago, ChrisP24 said:

Neeranam, I'm respectfully curious as to why you are so vehemently against fiat currencies, while being so bullish on cryptocurrencies.  Both are artificial means of exchange that have value only as long as people accept them as having value.  The difference is that with fiat, governments  have a fundamental interest in keeping their currencies going, whereas with crypto it is a bit murkier as to what powers have an interest in making what happen, and for how long.  Over the past several years of course, several cryptos (Bitcoin, Etherium) have met with rapidly expanding adoption and resulting rapid increase in value, some others have gone boom and bust, some have skipped any boom and just gone bust, and others have been revealed as outright scams. 

 

As a store of value, my own opinion is that dollars, euros, Swiss francs, and other Western currencies will be more stable and reliable than crypto, because (simply) most other people also think so, national governments want them to stay relatively stable, and thus fiat will continue to be accepted as a means of exchange with relatively low fluctuation of value, and with inflation rates remaining low enough to where it'll remain possible and in fact easy to find investments denominated in those currencies yielding at or above that currency's inflation rate. 

 

Cryptos on the other hand have wildly fluctuating values as they evolve and gain (or lose) acceptance, become regulated (or banned), and the collective tide of peoples' opinions on their future ebbs and flows.   Cryptos are still speculative and thus a candidate for speculation, but not a stable investment.

 

So while one can hold most or all of one's stored wealth in crypto, that is living way, way up on the risk curve, many times more so than holding investments denominated in Western fiat.  Bitcoin and others may well quintuple or more from today's value relative to fiat, thus they are a speculation with a tremendous upside.  But they also have a tremendous downside and I would not want to depend on them for my grocery money.  Similarly, I doubt that OP Pravda would suffer any significant impact on lifestyle if the full $200k were lost.

 

With respect, what is wrong or inaccurate with this view?   

Thanks for your questions Chris, given me the chance to go over why I don't hold fiat money, or very little of it.  It is also nice to get into a civil conversation. I like to spend by using my crpto.com debit card, as I get 3% cryptoback in the CRO token. Not only do have I amassed a lot of CRO buy buying iPhone, iPads, macBooks and other things for my teenage kids, I am also getting refunded by paying my 4 DTAC bills every month and other utility bills. However, I obviously need to keep some baht as one of my daughters' schools doesn't accept my card, nor does the electricity place.  Also, something not to be taken lightly -  when I bought the CRO to allow these great returns, it was $0.03. It went to 88c recently and now is 44c. This gives me the nice option to cash it all in if I want, which I don't. 

For a few years, I have put nearly all my salary into crypto. It was BTC and ETH at the start but I soon saw that the bigger profits were in the lower cap altcoins. After making some large profits with some of them(x100+) I have put more into quality projects like EGLD, Solana and Polkadot. There is less volatility/risk with these. I am older, and my financial goalposts have moved. At first, it was all about creating wealth and now it is about sustaining it. Pool villa near the beach in Khao Takiab has been secured, brand new car, and a few other unimportant luxuries. I know this won't impress many people here but it does impress myself, as 6 years ago, I had a large mortgage on a <deleted> house in Isarn, a 19-year old Mazda, and a job for 40k a month. Actually, I calculated earlier I get  40k a month passively from just one of the projects I am involved in -  staking $25k of Solana/Raydium on the Raydium exchange.  I get much more than that yield farming on the Maiar exchange($100k invested gets 10,000 baht/day). I get only 12% for my largest holding of Polkadot, which I bought for $4/5 less than 2 years ago. This is my safe bet, very secure on Kraken exchange, which is a US bank. I am confident that I'll have the option to sell it all at $70-$150 this year if I want. 

Can't answer the other questions right now as I've something to do but regarding inflation, whish is estimated around 15%(don't believe the government), it obviously makes no sense to me to hold fiat. It's not rocket science but for now, please listen to this rocket scientist explain few things. 

 

 

[Longwood50]

22 hours ago, ukrules said:

Nothing lasts forever

You are correct.  I am not saying that people should not buy a crypto currency.  What I am saying is they should not be deluded into thinking it is somehow a risk free way to make huge profits.  

They should understand that crypto currency price increases are due entirely to one buyer being willing to pay more than a previous buyer despite the underlying cryto currency doing nothing to enhance its value. 

In a traditional investment such as a Coke, the company can make more money by reducing expenses, selling more product, entering new markets etc.  Not true with crypto currency.  It makes no profit, and can do nothing to enhance its value.  That places it clearly in the type of asset that a person buying it can only rely on someone who places a value on it higher than the person who currently owns it.  Now why does that price increase?  Strictly based on the perception that the value is rising and therefore the person should buy before it gets any higher.  That is the classic definition of a 'greater fool"  At some point, whether 1 year, 1 decade or 1 century the last fool pays the highest price for the crypto and the price cascades down.  I also believe that crypto purchasers are ignoring that governments around the world may very well start to impose some sort of regulation and reporting on crypto currency.  If that occurs that will negatively impact the price of the crypto currency.  Will any of these things occur?  Who knows.  I just know I saw the exact thing happen with "flipping houses" in California because we all know that you can't lose money on real estate.  I saw it again with the dot.com where people were making fortunes trading companies that had no profit, nor any prospect of ever making a profit.  That hysteria eventually cratered.  I just personally don't like putting any money into something that does not produce something and does not make a profit.  

[happydreamer]

23 hours ago, lkn said:

We are on year 13 and nobody in mainstream society accepts payment with bitcoins. How come, if it is better than the existing system?

 

It is a speculative asset that people buy on a few centralized exchanges, only to keep it on those same exchanges, and hope it appreciates in value. So from my point of view it has totally failed becoming a currency. And don’t give me that “store of value” story, because it has failed here as well. Store of value means the value should be constant, not go up or down 10-15% in a single day.

What are you talking about?  PayPal just integrated a crypto payment feature and Ebay accepts its well. 

[lkn]

2 hours ago, happydreamer said:

What are you talking about?  PayPal just integrated a crypto payment feature and Ebay accepts its well. 

PayPal allows you to buy and sell a few crypto currencies on their platform. But they do not allow you to transfer coins to/from your PayPal wallet. They do allow you to “checkout with crypto” where they will convert (sell) coins you previously bought on their platform, and pass the proceeds (i.e. USD) to the merchant.

 

I fail to see how this is better than the current system or how this is “mainstream adoption”. It is just PayPal making some extra money from the fees/spread on having you buy crypto (because of FOMO) and sell again when you need to actually use the money.

[Sparktrader]

Zig zag pattern next break big

[happydreamer]

8 hours ago, lkn said:

PayPal allows you to buy and sell a few crypto currencies on their platform. But they do not allow you to transfer coins to/from your PayPal wallet. They do allow you to “checkout with crypto” where they will convert (sell) coins you previously bought on their platform, and pass the proceeds (i.e. USD) to the merchant.

 

I fail to see how this is better than the current system or how this is “mainstream adoption”. It is just PayPal making some extra money from the fees/spread on having you buy crypto (because of FOMO) and sell again when you need to actually use the money.

Aaaaaand passing proceeds on to merchants isn't better for the merchant???? You know who else makes money on fees?  Credit cards.  Every time you use them.  And you know who pays those fees?  The merchant most of the time, unless you live here...then you pay them IF they even let you use a credit card.

 

Mainstream adoption to me is when you have options available do do every day tasks that you didn't have before.  Like checking out with PayPal, Applepay, Samsung pay, google pay....  Mainstream adoption.  All huge entities....making money off people spending money.  

 

 

[lkn]

2 hours ago, happydreamer said:

Aaaaaand passing proceeds on to merchants isn't better for the merchant???? You know who else makes money on fees?

You don’t seem to get it: You cannot transfer crypto to PayPal. You cannot transfer crypto from PayPal. The merchant cannot receive your crypto via PayPal.

 

This is not payment with crypto. This is just PayPal offering access to a speculative money market for your coins, while they are in your wallet. This is not adoption of crypto currencies as a payment method.

[Whale]

8 hours ago, Sparktrader said:

Zig zag pattern next break big

But up or down? Sincere question.

[Sparktrader]

1 minute ago, Whale said:

But up or down? 

Up

[Sparktrader]

On 3/3/2022 at 4:58 AM, lkn said:

We are on year 13 and nobody in mainstream society accepts payment with bitcoins. How come, if it is better than the existing system?

 

It is a speculative asset that people buy on a few centralized exchanges, only to keep it on those same exchanges, and hope it appreciates in value. So from my point of view it has totally failed becoming a currency. And don’t give me that “store of value” story, because it has failed here as well. Store of value means the value should be constant, not go up or down 10-15% in a single day.

Dome shops do accept it google it. It can be moved from one exchange to another in seconds.

[happydreamer]

4 hours ago, lkn said:

You don’t seem to get it: You cannot transfer crypto to PayPal. You cannot transfer crypto from PayPal. The merchant cannot receive your crypto via PayPal.

 

This is not payment with crypto. This is just PayPal offering access to a speculative money market for your coins, while they are in your wallet. This is not adoption of crypto currencies as a payment method.

You're right.  After 13 years....I just....don't....get it.

 

I think what you're failing to look at is what PayPal does and then putting that into context of what's it's currently offering.  PayPal is a payment gateway.  They facilitate payments through different types of currencies on a global scale.  Their business is facilitating payments.  Thats it.

 

Not sure how long you've used PayPal but in the very beginning it acted to allow self-proprietary merchants (not just businesses) to accept credit card payment online.  That was game changing.  In th beginning the options were limited and few.  You couldn't use it like you can now.  It's added features over the years that make it pretty much like any other financial institution

 

This is where the non-technically savvy falter.  They can't imagine a future having more advanced features or capabilities than what they currently know of at the moment.  They don't understand how technology is implemented and scaled.  In the future systems like PayPal will open their doors to being able to transfer crypto in and out just like they have over the years allowed the transfer of funds in and out of their system using a combination of credit cards, debit cards, banks and even electronic checks.

 

Do you reeeeeeally think that just because something isn't available right now...that because you can't move crypto in and out and it's a closed loop systems (for now) that it's not on the docket for future development?  Do you think that the C-levels and board members who run these financial institutions are sitting around shaking the magic 8-ball at their meetings and saying...Hey let's try crypto this week and see what happens. Maybe next week we can try Longwood's pork bellies.

 

People who think technology is a scam and don't believe in tech as a means of streamlining the future and facilitating a better life are lost.  I feel sorry for you guys.

 

[lkn]

5 hours ago, happydreamer said:

This is where the non-technically savvy falter.  They can't imagine a future having more advanced features or capabilities than what they currently know of at the moment

If we rewind a little, I said, it had been 13 years, and still no mainstream merchants were accepting bitcoin. You (or maybe someone else) brought up PayPal, and I am pointing out, that this is not actually “mainstream merchants accepting bitcoin”.

 

That said, please do enligthen me, since someone else said that bitcoin is better than the old system; what new possibilities will bitcoin bring to PayPal? Bitcoin payments are slower and (for your typical payment) more expensive than what PayPal already offer.

[ChrisP24]

On 3/2/2022 at 8:57 PM, Neeranam said:

Thanks for your questions Chris, given me the chance to go over why I don't hold fiat money, or very little of it.  It is also nice to get into a civil conversation. I like to spend by using my crpto.com debit card, as I get 3% cryptoback in the CRO token. Not only do have I amassed a lot of CRO buy buying iPhone, iPads, macBooks and other things for my teenage kids, I am also getting refunded by paying my 4 DTAC bills every month and other utility bills. However, I obviously need to keep some baht as one of my daughters' schools doesn't accept my card, nor does the electricity place.  Also, something not to be taken lightly -  when I bought the CRO to allow these great returns, it was $0.03. It went to 88c recently and now is 44c. This gives me the nice option to cash it all in if I want, which I don't. 

For a few years, I have put nearly all my salary into crypto. It was BTC and ETH at the start but I soon saw that the bigger profits were in the lower cap altcoins. After making some large profits with some of them(x100+) I have put more into quality projects like EGLD, Solana and Polkadot. There is less volatility/risk with these. I am older, and my financial goalposts have moved. At first, it was all about creating wealth and now it is about sustaining it. Pool villa near the beach in Khao Takiab has been secured, brand new car, and a few other unimportant luxuries. I know this won't impress many people here but it does impress myself, as 6 years ago, I had a large mortgage on a <deleted> house in Isarn, a 19-year old Mazda, and a job for 40k a month. Actually, I calculated earlier I get  40k a month passively from just one of the projects I am involved in -  staking $25k of Solana/Raydium on the Raydium exchange.  I get much more than that yield farming on the Maiar exchange($100k invested gets 10,000 baht/day). I get only 12% for my largest holding of Polkadot, which I bought for $4/5 less than 2 years ago. This is my safe bet, very secure on Kraken exchange, which is a US bank. I am confident that I'll have the option to sell it all at $70-$150 this year if I want. 

Can't answer the other questions right now as I've something to do but regarding inflation, whish is estimated around 15%(don't believe the government), it obviously makes no sense to me to hold fiat. It's not rocket science but for now, please listen to this rocket scientist explain few things. 

 

 

Thanks Neeranam.  It took me a while to digest your post, but based on it I checked out crypto.com and its cards, and then ultimately decided to open a debit card with Coinbase (just completed today), in part because I already had a CB account and CB wallet set up, and in part because CB is based in the U.S. vs. crypto.com being based in Hong Kong.  The CB debit card offers 4% back paid in your choice of stellar lumens (XLM), The Graph (GRT), Ampleforth (AMPL) or Rally (RLY), plus some others but the others are only a 1% reward.   I picked XLM, just because I previously had a very small position in it.  There are no fees as long as the card is drawing against available US dollar or USDC coin balances.  I take it that you either came from or have ties to the U.K.?

 

I am an old guy too (58), and my financial goalposts, like yours, have moved.  I retired last year, but am having difficulty adjusting my financial mindset to a "decumulation" setting.   Instead I am being more conservative by living just from income generated by investments, while also still trying to steadily grow my asset base.  I'm being very careful right now because I'm in a two-year gap period before a military pension and military-sponsored family health coverage kick in at age 60, and then U.S. social security at age 62.  I've been an active options trader for many years, mostly in options on index ETFs but with some on individual stocks also (covered calls and equivalent), with some other retirement-oriented investments that I don't plan to touch for the foreseeable future.  Thus far have been able to generate both income and some degree of growth, although of course the markets are down modestly since January.

 

Have not gotten into staking yet as I don't want to lock up capital in crypto, but am loosely following development in etherium as it shifts over to a proof of stake model, and also etherium is primarily what I have been mining (but converting most to bitcoin).  

 

In any event, thank you very much for the tip.  I have kids in school also, so a lot of expenses that can be run through the card.  I don't think I'll accumulate much XLM but rather convert most of it to BTC and ETH unless and until I manage to overcome my current level of ignorance on the various altcoins, or more aptly develop some degree of confidence as to which ones have a good likelihood of growth. 

 

Also congratulations to you on figuring out so much of the crypto world ahead of the main pack, so that you've benefited and actually changed your life circumstance as later-adopters moved values so explosively upward. 

 

 

[Sparktrader]

 

[Sparktrader]

https://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/swiss-city-bitcoin-legal-tender-080449271.html

[Neeranam]