Assault on Kiev: Russian helicopters swoop above Ukraine's capital

[thaibeachlovers]

45 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

Whether a country does or does not have nuclear weapons has absolutely no bearing on whether it chooses to give someone up for prosecution by an International Court.

 

Karadzic and Mladic thought they were safe because they were part of the ruling elite at the time they committed their war crimes - and they even remained protected for many years after the conflict ended.

 

However justice has this strange habit of catching up with people in the end. Governments change eventually (yes, even in Russia). Putin will not be in power forever. In fact if this war continues to go as badly for him as it has been doing, his fall from grace will hopefully come quicker than he or anyone else imagined.

If what you say is true it's unlikely he'd be around to go on trial. Either hiding in a friendly country or having crossed the great divide.

 

However justice has this strange habit of catching up with people in the end.

Idi Amin died in Saudi, Stalin died of a stroke and was given a state funeral and Mao, who may have caused the deaths of up to 45 million Chinese died of a heart attack and was honoured after his death.

Putin has a ways to go to be near the last 2 in brutality.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, coolcarer said:

Wishful thinking on your part. Didn’t another poster say the same thing 2 or 3 pages in and we are now at 95, lol

 

Its not all hand clapping there are despicable atrocities going on and I fear there are plenty more to uncover in places like Mariupol where there is no power or internet coverage. Although I have no doubt the Russians will be trying to clean up all the evidence as we speak.

My entire life has been marked by wars with despicable atrocities going on, but I don't recall any significant outrage on the scale of this one. Perhaps because all those other ones were carried out in far away places and in countries we don't care about.

If any are really exercised about it they can go volunteer with The International Legion of Territorial Defense of Ukraine. I'm sure they are welcoming recruits now.

[Bkk Brian]

4 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If what you say is true it's unlikely he'd be around to go on trial. Either hiding in a friendly country or having crossed the great divide.

 

However justice has this strange habit of catching up with people in the end.

Idi Amin died in Saudi, Stalin died of a stroke and was given a state funeral and Mao, who may have caused the deaths of up to 45 million Chinese died of a heart attack and was honoured after his death.

Putin has a ways to go to be near the last 2 in brutality.

The International Criminal Court was not established until 2002. I'm afraid that was a little after Stalin's death. The International Criminal court are not however wasting their time, they are already in Ukraine investigating.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

The International Criminal Court was not established until 2002. I'm afraid that was a little after Stalin's death. The International Criminal court are not however wasting their time, they are already in Ukraine investigating.

LOL. Justice doesn't require an International Criminal court to prevail. I'm pretty sure justice happened in the Middle Ages too.

It's not just about this conflict.

[coolcarer]

10 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

My entire life has been marked by wars with despicable atrocities going on, but I don't recall any significant outrage on the scale of this one. Perhaps because all those other ones were carried out in far away places and in countries we don't care about.

If any are really exercised about it they can go volunteer with The International Legion of Territorial Defense of Ukraine. I'm sure they are welcoming recruits now.

Your memories have no interest to me but thanks for sharing them. I agree for those who have military experience, are of the appropriate age and available to travel then they can join the other brave souls who are helping the fight for freedom in Ukraine. 

[Hellfire]

16 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

My entire life has been marked by wars with despicable atrocities going on, but I don't recall any significant outrage on the scale of this one. Perhaps because all those other ones were carried out in far away places and in countries we don't care about.

If any are really exercised about it they can go volunteer with The International Legion of Territorial Defense of Ukraine. I'm sure they are welcoming recruits now.

This is an exact Putin propaganda’s formula: if Americans invaded Iraq - why we cannot invade Ukraine? If Ukrainians killed the children of Donbass - then why we cannot kill Ukrainian children now?
 If there were even worse genocide crimes in the past and the world did not react to it - then why to react to the current atrocities? 

I wonder, what happens in the heads of people using this kind of logic? How can the wrong things of the past (or presented as wrong by propaganda) justify other wrong actions now?
 

 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Hellfire

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

LOL. Justice doesn't require an International Criminal court to prevail. I'm pretty sure justice happened in the Middle Ages too.

It's not just about this conflict.

How exactly would Stalin have been brought to justice? Was interpol around....lol

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

How exactly would Stalin have been brought to justice? Was interpol around....lol

I was replying to someone that thinks Putin will be. I give that as much chance as there was of Mao going on trial in Europe.

IMO all the talk on here of Putin being assassinated or removed somehow is just wishful thinking. Takes more than good manners to survive as a dictator.

Tell me if I'm wrong, after it happens.

[Bkk Brian]

6 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I was replying to someone that thinks Putin will be. I give that as much chance as there was of Mao going on trial in Europe.

IMO all the talk on here of Putin being assassinated or removed somehow is just wishful thinking. Takes more than good manners to survive as a dictator.

Tell me if I'm wrong, after it happens.

Well you quoted Stalin as an example and that was who I pulled you up on, understand now?

 

I also think Putin will eventually be issued an arrest warrant, that does not mean anyone will be able to arrest him however unless he is stupid enough to travel. However just an arrest warrant does give some peace of mind to the families of the murdered civilians and the general Ukraine population as a whole, together with showing any other wanna be dictators.

 

 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Bkk Brian

[ozimoron]

5 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I was replying to someone that thinks Putin will be. I give that as much chance as there was of Mao going on trial in Europe.

IMO all the talk on here of Putin being assassinated or removed somehow is just wishful thinking. Takes more than good manners to survive as a dictator.

Tell me if I'm wrong, after it happens.

That's just pure speculation and even if you are right, is that some kind of reason not to indict him?

[thaibeachlovers]

11 minutes ago, Hellfire said:

This is an exact Putin propaganda’s formula: if Americans invaded Iraq - why we cannot invade Ukraine? If Ukrainians killed the children of Donbass - then why we cannot kill Ukrainian children now?
 If there were even worse genocide crimes in the past and the world did not react to it - then why to react to the current atrocities? 

I wonder, what happens in the heads of people using this kind of logic? How can the wrong things of the past (or presented as wrong by propaganda) justify other wrong actions now?
 

 

Or, perhaps he doesn't care what soft western countries think. We haven't stood up to bad people since Korea, IMO, and I don't count the Iraq conflicts as anything to do with supporting democracy or removing dictators. Had Saddam not gone loopy and invaded Kuwait he'd probably still be in charge, IMO.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

That's just pure speculation and even if you are right, is that some kind of reason not to indict him?

Idict away, but IMO it won't amount to much, except with people that think it's an important court. IMO it's the same as the UN.

[Berkshire]

4 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I was replying to someone that thinks Putin will be. I give that as much chance as there was of Mao going on trial in Europe.

IMO all the talk on here of Putin being assassinated or removed somehow is just wishful thinking. Takes more than good manners to survive as a dictator.

Tell me if I'm wrong, after it happens.

I think there's a big difference between someone committing atrocities against their own people and someone committing atrocities in another country.  There's a long list of corrupt leaders oppressing their citizens in the modern day, including Syria, N. Korea, Myanmar, a number of African and S. American countries...and yes, Russia.  But once they cross that border and invade a sovereign country, a new ballgame.  Who knows what will happen to Putin.  But it's not the same as Mao.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Idict away, but IMO it won't amount to much, except with people that think it's an important court. IMO it's the same as the UN.

So, they shouldn't have bothered to indict Mladic and Milosovich? Or anyone else?

[Bkk Brian]

16 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

The Russian nazi Wagner group is now in Donetsk, Ukraine doing their thing, this from Bellingcat:

 

"Wagner mercenaries spotted in Donetsk. Photo, released by a GRU-linked blogger, made in front of Park Inn hotel where @OSCE was housed until recently (thus photo = now). Many of the Wagnerites are true Nazies, as some of them have told me. The irony."

 

Kremlin-backed mercenaries employed by the Wagner Group have been pictured for the first time in Ukraine after defence officials warned that more than 1,000 fighters had been deployed.

 

It operates as an arm’s-length branch of the state to offer the Kremlin plausible deniability for activities it does not want to be associated with. Its motto is said to be: “Death is our business and business is good.”

“The GRU [Russian military intelligence] use Wagner as their deniable dirty operations troops,”

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/wagner-groups-hardened-mercenaries-pictured-in-eastern-ukraine-td9jnwwsm

[thaibeachlovers]

8 minutes ago, Berkshire said:

I think there's a big difference between someone committing atrocities against their own people and someone committing atrocities in another country.  There's a long list of corrupt leaders oppressing their citizens in the modern day, including Syria, N. Korea, Myanmar, a number of African and S. American countries...and yes, Russia.  But once they cross that border and invade a sovereign country, a new ballgame.  Who knows what will happen to Putin.  But it's not the same as Mao.

Really? So it's not our problem if someone causes the deaths of millions of people so long as they don't cross the border?

I can't agree with that. Atrocities are atrocities wherever they are caused.

IMO it's hypocritical of western countries to criticize Russia while allowing the outrageous situation in Burma.

[Berkshire]

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Really? So it's not our problem if someone causes the deaths of millions of people so long as they don't cross the border?

I can't agree with that. Atrocities are atrocities wherever they are caused.

IMO it's hypocritical of western countries to criticize Russia while allowing the outrageous situation in Burma.

Unfortunately, that's the way it is.  I think it's despicable what's going on in Myanmar.  Truly outrageous.  But what's the world going to do?  The coalition is doing the right thing with Ukraine.  You can't keep bringing up other atrocities and say "well you're not doing anything about Myanmar, so let's do nothing about Ukraine." 

[Bkk Brian]

13 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Really? So it's not our problem if someone causes the deaths of millions of people so long as they don't cross the border?

I can't agree with that. Atrocities are atrocities wherever they are caused.

IMO it's hypocritical of western countries to criticize Russia while allowing the outrageous situation in Burma.

The UN General Assembly already voted to condemn the Myanmar coup, unsurprisingly Russia abstained being one of their largest weapon suppliers along with China.

 

Plenty of sanctions in place although that needs to be balanced as most people there live in poverty anyway. Last Month the Chief Prosecutor for the International Criminal Court returned from Bangladesh interviewing refugee's and underlined commitment to advance investigations into alleged atrocity crimes against the Rohingya.

 

There was plenty in the media about this but you must have missed it. However just over 4 weeks ago Russia went rogue and has taken over the headlines.

 

Anyway off topic

[ozimoron]

40 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Did it make the world a better place? Too many bad people running around doing bad things in the world for me to care if some minor war criminal goes on trial or not. How about indicting a few of the businessmen that are causing the illegal destruction of rain forests around the world or polluting the oceans which IMO are a far greater crime against humanity and the planet than a small war.

Yes, very much so. One of them died in jail and it's a deterrent to others in general. Furthermore, it restricts travel for those indicted as they would be detained outside their fiefdoms. As much as I agree about climate issues, it's off topic and irrelevant. This isa  debate about whether Putin should be indicted for war crimes. Look over there doesn't cut it.

[thaibeachlovers]

4 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Yes, very much so. One of them died in jail and it's a deterrent to others in general. Furthermore, it restricts travel for those indicted as they would be detained outside their fiefdoms. As much as I agree about climate issues, it's off topic and irrelevant. This isa  debate about whether Putin should be indicted for war crimes. Look over there doesn't cut it.

My point which you chose to ignore is that being indicted by the court probably means nothing to Putin. I doubt he'll be holidaying in Blackpool any time soon.

Edited April 5, 2022 by thaibeachlovers

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

My point which you chose to ignore is that being indicted by the court probably means nothing to Putin. I doub

It means he can forget leaving the country if ever there's an insurrection or he's indicted there.

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

It means he can forget leaving the country if ever there's an insurrection or he's indicted there.

I'm sure he can't sleep for worrying about that, NOT.

[ozimoron]

"Their hands were tied behind their back and they were shot in the back of the head or in the eyes right on the streets," Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said in a video address.

"Civilian cars with people were driven over. Women and girls were raped. We haven't yet collected all the testimonies. We haven't yet located all the burials, searched all the basements where Russians were torturing people."

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-04-05/bucha-ukraine-russia-civilians-war-crimes/100966098

Edited April 5, 2022 by ozimoron

[Rimmer]

Troll posts and an argumentitive post all coming from the same person have been removed also replies

[ozimoron]

Another Bucha resident, Volodymyr Pilhutskyi, said his neighbour, Pavlo Vlasenko, was taken away by Russian soldiers because the military-style pants he was wearing and the uniforms that Mr Vlasenko said belonged to his security-guard son appeared suspicious.

When Mr Vlasenko's body was later found, it had burn marks from a flamethrower, his neighbour said.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-04-05/bucha-mass-gravesite-what-we-know-evidence-war-crimes/100966110

[friendofthai]

29 minutes ago, sammieuk1 said:

In his talk show last night, Russian state TV presenter Vladimir Solovyov had this to say about Bucha: "The war against Russia entered a new phase today... Very soon they'll accuse us of genocide... To all appearances this whole provocation was plotted by the British"

 

You will get your gift from Salisbury for sure with a gift wrapped nose cone ???? 

Bucha is raising of the stakes in the game. This will allow Vlad to double the number of soldiers in this war. Russian TV is preparing grounds for this.

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, friendofthai said:

Bucha is raising of the stakes in the game. This will allow Vlad to double the number of soldiers in this war. Russian TV is preparing grounds for this.

Where will he get them? Russia doesn't have a lot more trained soldiers. They are employing mercenaries and drafting Chechens and Syrians because they have combat experience. Conscripting them within Russia won't play well and he'll have the same issue with ill disciplined soldiers looting, raping and killing civilians.

[metisdead]

A post with a trolling image has been removed.

[Hummin]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

Where will he get them? Russia doesn't have a lot more trained soldiers. They are employing mercenaries and drafting Chechens and Syrians because they have combat experience. Conscripting them within Russia won't play well and he'll have the same issue with ill disciplined soldiers looting, raping and killing civilians.

I do not believe Syrian soldier will manage the clima, and making war on a foreign soil. What would the motivation be? Defending their position in their home country is different than invading another country, and as said with different clima and culture, They will not last long. 

 

Chechens is a different story, as well Wagner, but those soldiers will have more priviligies than normal soldiers.

 

Putin will have to withdraw, can not see any other solution. 

 

Horrible escalating the last week's. Tragic

[ozimoron]

1 hour ago, Hummin said:

I do not believe Syrian soldier will manage the clima, and making war on a foreign soil. What would the motivation be? Defending their position in their home country is different than invading another country, and as said with different clima and culture, They will not last long. 

 

Chechens is a different story, as well Wagner, but those soldiers will have more priviligies than normal soldiers.

 

Putin will have to withdraw, can not see any other solution. 

 

Horrible escalating the last week's. Tragic

For the Syrians, their motivation might be the money and the possibility of remaining in Europe by somehow claiming refugee status if they can escape to Western Europe. That's what I have read. As to whether they will fight and die in numbers, I agree they won't do well.