Ownership of land vs house

[BritManToo]

45 minutes ago, 1FinickyOne said:

All the more a good deed... 

If I were the sort of person to do 'good deeds', giving all my money to a lazy Thai gold digger probably wouldn't be my first choice.

 

Although the occasional 1,000bht donation to a female Thai university student's educational expenses isn't totally out of the question.

Edited March 19, 2022 by BritManToo

[khunPer]

16 hours ago, NorthernRyland said:

However it's also said that foreigners can own houses, so that begs the question (if true), what happens if you buy land and build a house in your spouses name and then divorce at some point down the road? Can you at least liquidate the house and reclaim some of the money there?

You need a supercies servitude to build your house on someone else's land, and you might also need a 30-year lease or other agreement to use the land. You cannot make the agreements with a spouse, as in case of divorce agreements between married couples can be void, so get any servitudes registered before land is transferred to a spouse's name.

 

Your proof of house ownership will be the building permission in your name (important document), for which you need a superficies og other written permission; furthermore architect drawings with you name as house owner, all agreements in your name with building constructor, your name on all bills and money transferred from your bank account, or if paid cash receipts issued with your name. When you build a new house only these documents are your proof og ownership, it will not be registered separated from the at the land office before it's sold to a third party.

 

My real estate lawyer mentioned that you can declare a loan as servitude on the land, which will protect the land from being sold or transferred to another name without the loan being paid in full. However, that shall also be done before the land is transferred to and registered in a wife's name.

 

Another used method is the company limited-way, where a company owns the land and lease it to you, while you own the building(s) on the land. This method both require som running costs - keeping the company going with accounting, auditor and annual reports - and finding Thai partners that in principle owns 51 percent of the company; preferred shares can keep a voting majority in your favor.

 

I own my house, but not the land under the house. A benefit to own a house is that it's a home and void for paying the new property tax for an aparised value up to 10 million baht. The land under the house is however taxed, as that land it rented out. You need a document from tessa ban-office - which is the office issuing building permissions - for the revenue-office, to prove that you are the house owner, i.e. the name on the building permission. As house owner I'm also the one that approves who can be registered in the house book, but it's as house master, it's not a proof of ownership...????

 

Edit. If you build the house after marriage, it might be common property, if it's not build for separate property's funds, for example funds from inheritance. Check with a lawyer for details.

Edited March 19, 2022 by khunPer

[Sparktrader]

46 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

If I were the sort of person to do 'good deeds', giving all my money to a lazy Thai gold digger probably wouldn't be my first choice.

 

Although the occasional 1,000bht donation to a female Thai university student's educational expenses isn't totally out of the question.

Exercise expenses

[sandyf]

17 hours ago, Sparktrader said:

Own a unit not land. Poor investments mostly unless Bangkok.

 

Cheap rent. Why buy? Cause some sheila wants your $$$

 

Most women are gold diggers.

The narrow minded view.

Our house was completed 12 years ago this month, cost 900K to build and with extras and maintenance say 1,2 million baht, that equates to a bit over 8K/month. How much would the rent be on a 100 sq m 2 bed en-suite bungalow.  If i walked away tomorrow, it doesn't owe me anything.

Apart from that, the house has been my main hobby for the past 12 years, how much can you do in rented accommodation.

It is not always about the money aspect.

[Brian Ramsden]

Hi you can secure your investment

you need an agreement carefully worded and witnessed by your lawyer

you need a usufruct registered

and a will from your wife carefully worded and executed properly 

 

[giddyup]

18 hours ago, Sparktrader said:

This woman who wants you to buy land and house wants your $. You will be most likely flicked away after a few years.

Well, it's been 12 years already, what's a few?

[sead]

You have misunderstood 2 things. You can own land if you buy through a company that you register and you as owner of company. But it's gonna cost you to pay the lawyer that's going to sit as a shareholde and then some cash every year as company tax. The condos and houses that you can buy and own are made on land bought by the house company whereas of 100 houses, 49 can be bought by foreigners and 51 has to be bought by Thais.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong...

[arick]

8 hours ago, NorthernRyland said:

Thanks. I also read these may not hold up in court but I guess I need to consult a lawyer to be sure. My only intention was to hopefully be able to recover 50% of anything and force a liquidation in case of divorce or early death.

She is Thai she will never sell or liquidate. So don't worry. 

[jvs]

I can understand you can be afraid of losing all of your money in case of divorce

or in case she dies before you do.

Buy the other way!

Let her buy the house in her name with a mortgage from the bank,you can pay her back

the amount monthly and just see it as paying rent.

If things do not work out,just leave.

If things work out she will own a home when you pass away.

Things can be done so she can show a monthly income to get a mortgage.

Another piece of advice,do not make children.

[oobar]

Look into "Right of Superficies."  It's simple.  You lease the land for 30 years, stipulating you have the right of superficies.  This means you own any structure (and its contents) you build on, under or above the leased land for the entirety of the lease.  You can do anything to the house you like, including moving it or tearing it down and selling it as scrap, as long as it is done before the end of the lease, at which time it would become the property of the land owner.  Removing the house or not can become a  point of negotiation as the lease nears expiration.  In any case, you are absolutely protected from actions of others until then.  Thirty years gives you a lot of breathing room.  If your relationship fails, you still control the land and own the house, so you can live alone or bring in a new gal.  Or rent the house out.

Edited March 19, 2022 by oobar
added

[Tony125]

11 hours ago, NorthernRyland said:

Thanks. I also read these may not hold up in court but I guess I need to consult a lawyer to be sure. My only intention was to hopefully be able to recover 50% of anything and force a liquidation in case of divorce or early death.

A court (say diviorce court) can over rule any pre-nup if they consider it blatantly unfair or illegal. Also in a diviorce you may be entitled to 50%  of the value of the home/land but if you live in Nakon Nowhere  in familes area you may find no buyers wil want to face the wrath of her relatives.

[NorthernRyland]

 

2 hours ago, jvs said:

Let her buy the house in her name with a mortgage from the bank,you can pay her back

the amount monthly and just see it as paying rent.

That's a clever way to go but she already has an outstanding loan so I think I need to buy with cash!

[NorthernRyland]

5 hours ago, khunPer said:

You need a supercies servitude to build your house on someone else's land, and you might also need a 30-year lease or other agreement to use the land. You cannot make the agreements with a spouse, as in case of divorce agreements between married couples can be void, so get any servitudes registered before land is transferred to a spouse's name.

Thanks for the very detailed response, which is honestly a little over my head so I guess I need to speak with a lawyer. ????

 

30 year lease sounds good so long as I can sell the house at some point, but how does that work if you don't own the land under the house?. The problem with the wife owning the house is that of course in case of a divorce it's not even guaranteed to get back 50% of the value. Giving a women 50% is already more than generous so I think that's a fair thing to try to achieve.

[NorthernRyland]

3 hours ago, oobar said:

 

Look into "Right of Superficies."  It's simple.  You lease the land for 30 years, stipulating you have the right of superficies. 

 

Any property purchased after marriage is considered a shared asset so in case of divorce can you sell the house and split the profit according to what ever is legal? The lease may make the house hard to sell though although I'm not sure how all that works.

[KhunLA]

14 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

Thanks for the very detailed response, which is honestly a little over my head so I guess I need to speak with a lawyer. ????

 

30 year lease sounds good so long as I can sell the house at some point, but how does that work if you don't own the land under the house?. The problem with the wife owning the house is that of course in case of a divorce it's not even guaranteed to get back 50% of the value. Giving a women 50% is already more than generous so I think that's a fair thing to try to achieve.

Not really, as what is described is nothing more than a usufruct, without the bite, and more hassle & expense than needed.  And leases can be cancelled one year after divorce, though not sure how that works with 'RoS'.  Only the one listed on the usufruct can cancel it.

 

When transfer of land, or if already having, you simply tell agent at land office, you want a usufruct to use & modify, for life.  He/she prints out the 'filled in the blank form' off the computer, y'all sign, and pay the all of about 150 baht.

 

Why complicated something so easy & cheap to do on your own.  No lawyer, no silly fees, no BS.

 

I've done 6 of them.

Edited March 19, 2022 by KhunLA

[NorthernRyland]

2 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

When transfer of land, or if already having, you simply tell agent at land office, you want a usufruct to use & modify, for life.  He/she prints out the 'filled in the blank form' off the computer, y'all sign, and pay the all of about 150 baht.

Sorry I'm getting lost with all these details, please bare with me. ???? 

 

My only real goal is hopefully recoup 50% of the value invested in case of divorce (same as would happen in the US). How does the usufruct help to achieve this? If there is a lease on the land I don't see how this can be sold, but maybe you're saying this doesn't matter so much because the property isn't tied to the marriage?

[oobar]

14 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

Any property purchased after marriage is considered a shared asset so in case of divorce can you sell the house and split the profit according to what ever is legal? The lease may make the house hard to sell though although I'm not sure how all that works.

Better not to be married, or at least do not register your marriage, although theoretically you could sell the house and split the proceeds, but as you suspect, the lease would likely make it difficult to sell to a third party, unless it was discounted substantially. 

[NorthernRyland]

4 hours ago, sead said:

You have misunderstood 2 things. You can own land if you buy through a company that you register and you as owner of company. But it's gonna cost you to pay the lawyer that's going to sit as a shareholde and then some cash every year as company tax.

As another user said I think this technically fraud and could backfire some time in the future.

[patman30]

have bought land with the wife
you both need to be present, you sign to say you agree to the purchase
(this is the same for legally married Thais)

bought house with wife
in Company name, myself, wife and MIL are shareholders with myself as director
wife and MIL already signed to say they cannot dispute any of my actions as director
i can replace them as shareholders or transfer/sell the company when i please

one thing you may need to consider
the cost of building is rising rapidly
reused wood is by far the cheapest option right now, which has not been the case for a long while
but its not for everyone
i have a wooden house being built now, another option i looked at was using box culverts
steel took a jump in price last year
 

[NorthernRyland]

10 minutes ago, patman30 said:

bought house with wife
in Company name, myself, wife and MIL are shareholders with myself as director
wife and MIL already signed to say they cannot dispute any of my actions as director
i can replace them as shareholders or transfer/sell the company when i please

one thing you may need to consider
the cost of building is rising rapidly
reused wood is by far the cheapest option right now, which has not been the case for a long while
but its not for everyone
i have a wooden house being built now, another option i looked at was using box culverts
steel took a jump in price last year

How did you confirm this was legal? This sounds like an obvious loophole to exploit and others hinted it was fraud.

 

Yes, inflation is going to be nasty for at least the short term. Hard times ahead for many of us.

 

I rent a wooden house now as weekend hangout in the mountains and while they're nice in the evenings/mornings these things are impossible during the day when it gets hot. Actually the classic design of wood top/cement bottom is pretty smart in terms of function and something to consider.

[brianthainess]

The REAL World : You pay for it, with the right paperwork you can live there till you die even with a new partner if you divorce, a very good reason to never build in your wife's village or any where near it. Getting any money back well good luck.

[patman30]

1 minute ago, NorthernRyland said:

How did you confirm this was legal? This sounds like an obvious loophole to exploit and others hinted it was fraud.

 

Yes, inflation is going to be nasty for at least the short term. Hard times ahead for many of us.

 

I rent a wooden house now as weekend hangout in the mountains and while they're nice in the evenings/mornings these things are impossible during the day when it gets hot. Actually the classic design of wood top/cement bottom is pretty smart in terms of function and something to consider.

the fraud is when you use the lawyers staff to act as shareholders
the wife pre signed a few things, no idea how much they would hold up
but its not a concern for myself

yes having similar wood top, with brickwalls on ground floor

Edited March 19, 2022 by patman30

[NorthernRyland]

4 minutes ago, patman30 said:

the fraud is when you use the lawyers staff to act as shareholders
the wife pre signed a few things, no idea how much they would hold up
but its not a concern for myself

yeah I wonder what happens in case of divorce and if this really holds up. I assume you spoke with a lawyer though or the land office was in agreement here.

[patman30]

13 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

yeah I wonder what happens in case of divorce and if this really holds up. I assume you spoke with a lawyer though or the land office was in agreement here.

you buy after LEGALLY married its 50/50 (not the village ceremony)
but in case of divorce do not expect your wife to be able to buy you out
or to be able to sell quick unless dirt cheap
and you cannot split the land and put half in your name
Land office has no say in company issues which is what owns my house
have purchased a few plots of land
the plot i am building on is actually in the MILs name as it was easier at the time due to lockdowns

TBH if you are so concerned about divorce and recouping money if it occurs

it may be better to just rent somewhere

i would say, the 100k for marriage is not bad at all,
its not even 10 baht of gold
the dowry etc is more a show of face to the rest of the village
although myself we did not have the traditional one,
just a quickie in registry office with 2 motobike taxis for witnesses

Edited March 19, 2022 by patman30

[NorthernRyland]

2 minutes ago, patman30 said:

you buy after married its 50/50
but in case of divorce do not expect your wife to be able to buy you out
or to be able to sell quick unless dirt cheap
and you cannot split the land and put half in your name
Land office has no say in company issues which is what owns my house
have purchased a few plots of land
the plot i am building on is actually in the MILs name as it was easier at the time due to lockdowns

If you divorce then the company is now in peril so I wonder how that would work out. It seems like you could get in the same situation where you need to sell the company assets and terminate the contract.

 

I'm not saying I'm really worried but I just want to make sure I'm not doing something foolish when there are better options. You never know with women, I've seen them turn on men (in the States) and blow up the entire marriage because they weren't happy etc... and leave the poor man in a dire situation. It's kind of like life insurance, you're not expecting to die but it's prudent to cover your bases.

[patman30]

Just now, NorthernRyland said:

If you divorce then the company is now in peril so I wonder how that would work out. It seems like you could get in the same situation where you need to sell the company assets and terminate the contract.

 

I'm not saying I'm really worried but I just want to make sure I'm not doing something foolish when there are better options. You never know with women, I've seen them turn on men (in the States) and blow up the entire marriage because they weren't happy etc... and leave the poor man in a dire situation. It's kind of like life insurance, you're not expecting to die but it's prudent to cover your bases.

doesnt work like that
for my house
the company owners the house (not myself or the wife)
i am the director of the company
i can replace my wife as a shareholder, and i can transfer the company to someone else
by making someone else the director etc.

anything owned by a company does not come into dispute in divorce
as it is not owned by the married couple, it is owned by the company, a seperate legal entity.

if you are the provider and your GF knows her current world ends without you
you shouldnt really have a problem, or at least you should see it coming if it does.

[patman30]

you will always own 49% of the company on paper if you choose to put in company name
but you do also need to pay tax each year, usually around 12k to pay an accountant to do for you.

Edited March 19, 2022 by patman30

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, NorthernRyland said:

Sorry I'm getting lost with all these details, please bare with me. ???? 

 

My only real goal is hopefully recoup 50% of the value invested in case of divorce (same as would happen in the US). How does the usufruct help to achieve this? If there is a lease on the land I don't see how this can be sold, but maybe you're saying this doesn't matter so much because the property isn't tied to the marriage?

As long as you have the usufruct, nobody can sell / transfer the land / house.  If you want 50%, then agree to void at sale, for pre determined price, mutually agreed upon at divorce.  Quite simple.

 

If really wanting complete control, you could have a POA, of wife, on any and all transactions about land / house.  I actually had this with wife #1 here, and sold the house, and she wasn't even there at land office.  Just another fill in the blanks form, with 2 signatures / witnesses of her signing the POA.

 

With these reservation, you may want to consider renting for a year or so.  Seems you have a few doubts.  Good Luck.

 

Something to consider, dependent on your age, if 50, as I'm sensing a driving force to be married for you, is ease to stay, getting marriage visa, with the 400k lump in bank.  Instead, rent, stick 800k lump in bank, instead of spending $60k / ฿2 m baht on land / house, and see how things go in a year or 2.

 

If she balks at that, then that answers your skeptical thoughts.  It's your $$$, spend at your leisure, and at your comfort level.  Once spent, protective paperwork or not, it's not always easy to recoup.  As I said, took 3 yrs to sell our last house.   And if you are building in a village, away from a metro area, it's really hard to sell, as you'll need a retired person / couple, as working folks aren't going to want any long commutes to work.

[BTB1977]

Many friends of mine built houses with their loving thai wife. Most of them were driven out of their homes by unbearable living situations after a few years. Family moved in ( sons, daughters ,brothers sisters or parents) all unable to work and your wife demanding you support them too. One guy was in his new house just 3 months until he has forced out by his wife's 2 sons. Who had jobs before the house was built. But after it was finished they both were unable to work. Needing money all the time. And if he didn't give it to them they would get very mad and threaten him. His wife blamed him for being tight with his money. He ran from his new house and wife back to his home country . 

So it doesn't mater what papers you have. It is very easy to get you out. 

[KhunLA]

5 minutes ago, BTB1977 said:

So it doesn't mater what papers you have. It is very easy to get you out. 

Why many suggest rent if having any reservations.  Along with living as far away from wife's family as possible.