Electric Vehicles in Thailand

[ExpatOilWorker]

Very interesting report, but aren't they all missing the elephant in the room? Profit?
Are MG, BYD and other Chinese EV manufacturers even profitable without the subsidies?

[KhunLA]

5 hours ago, matchar said:

It's cheap but you get what you pay for. I think the MG 4 is better value for money (based on specs) although I haven't tried either yet.

That's a bit of a price difference;

Neta V 549k

MG4 769k now, but without few perks since price drop.

 

One would hope for better specs for 220k more.  Both very nice.

Edited September 18, 2023 by KhunLA

[Alotoftravel]

17 hours ago, BKKBike09 said:

 

TBH I don't really see the point of not getting the model with the most range / most power available. Better to have more range / overtaking capability than you may need rather than find yourself wanting more. Can't upgrade once you've bought it ... 

 

Also I am sure the Extended range will be easier to sell if/when etc.

Yes , I am in the same camp, choosing the extended over the standard .thanks for your thoughts .

 

I Will pull the trigger sept 29th, however I 

hope the BYD seal introduction  on sept 28 does not sway my decision .

Haha  

[Gweiloman]

12 hours ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

Very interesting report, but aren't they all missing the elephant in the room? Profit?
Are MG, BYD and other Chinese EV manufacturers even profitable without the subsidies?

Sometimes, it’s not always all about profit.

 

This is a new industry so getting in first carries a lot of advantages. For all intents and purposes, Tesla was the first and their vehicles were definitely not cheap. However, with major companies like BYD and MG joining the race, Tesla is forced to reduce their prices accordingly in order to not lose market share. 
 

The situation now is that those who are late to the party such as the Japanese and German legacy makers are finding high barriers to entry. They just can’t afford to compete on costs which is why they need their governments to help them out. I feel the Chinese automakers can afford to keep going without major profits for much longer in order to crush the competition from other countries carmakers.

 

Such is capitalism.

[br12stol]

54 minutes ago, Alotoftravel said:

Yes , I am in the same camp, choosing the extended over the standard .thanks for your thoughts .

 

I Will pull the trigger sept 29th, however I 

hope the BYD seal introduction  on sept 28 does not sway my decision .

Haha  

I am very interested in the Volvo EX30 but the BYD seal does look intriguing,  so think I will do the same. Would be good to get the price and availability of the updated Tesla Model 3 Highlander too

[JBChiangRai]

Battery prices plummet as electric cars approach ‘tipping point’ (msn.com)

 

The cost of batteries fell by nearly 10 per cent in August, taking them past a key milestone that is seen by energy analysts as a “tipping point” to supercharge the transition to electric vehicles.

The price of lithium-ion battery cells, which power everything from smartphones to the International Space Station, fell below $100/ kilowatthour (kWh) last month – a 33 per cent drop from March 2022 and an 8.7 per cent month-on-month drop.

Energy analytics firm Benchmark Mineral Intelligence, who compiled the figures, noted that battery pack prices need to reach $100/kWh for electric vehicles to reach price parity with fossil fuel-burning vehicles.

“Decreasing cell prices could allow [manufacturers] to sell mass market electric vehicles at comparable prices to internal combustion engine vehicles, with the same margin, improving the attractiveness of the EV transition for both consumers and automakers,” said Benchmark analyst Evan Hartley.

“Falling cell prices are of particular concern for companies investing in cell production outside of China, particularly when there is already concern surrounding the profitability of factories in regions such as Europe.”

The drop in price could also have implications for other technologies, the report noted, including for solar and wind installations that need to store excess energy during periods of overproduction.

“The energy and transport revolution continues,” energy analyst Gerard Reid wrote on LinkedIn.

“Lithium battery cell prices are now below $100 per kWh, down 80 per cent in a decade. Going forward we will see even lower costs and better performance, which is why the death of the internal combustion engine is near.”

 

(Benchmark)© Provided by The Independent

The falling prices have been attributed to decreasing raw material costs, with lithium prices more than halving since the start of 2023.

The price could continue to fall following the discovery of massive lithium deposits in recent months, most notably within an extinct supervolcano on the border of Nevada and Oregon.

The McDermitt caldera could contain up to 120 million tonnes of lithium, according to recent estimates from geologists, which could potentially meet global battery demand for decades.

[matchar]

40 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Battery prices plummet as electric cars approach ‘tipping point’ (msn.com)

 

The cost of batteries fell by nearly 10 per cent in August, taking them past a key milestone that is seen by energy analysts as a “tipping point” to supercharge the transition to electric vehicles.

The price of lithium-ion battery cells, which power everything from smartphones to the International Space Station, fell below $100/ kilowatthour (kWh) last month – a 33 per cent drop from March 2022 and an 8.7 per cent month-on-month drop.

Energy analytics firm Benchmark Mineral Intelligence, who compiled the figures, noted that battery pack prices need to reach $100/kWh for electric vehicles to reach price parity with fossil fuel-burning vehicles.

“Decreasing cell prices could allow [manufacturers] to sell mass market electric vehicles at comparable prices to internal combustion engine vehicles, with the same margin, improving the attractiveness of the EV transition for both consumers and automakers,” said Benchmark analyst Evan Hartley.

“Falling cell prices are of particular concern for companies investing in cell production outside of China, particularly when there is already concern surrounding the profitability of factories in regions such as Europe.”

The drop in price could also have implications for other technologies, the report noted, including for solar and wind installations that need to store excess energy during periods of overproduction.

“The energy and transport revolution continues,” energy analyst Gerard Reid wrote on LinkedIn.

“Lithium battery cell prices are now below $100 per kWh, down 80 per cent in a decade. Going forward we will see even lower costs and better performance, which is why the death of the internal combustion engine is near.”

 

(Benchmark)© Provided by The Independent

The falling prices have been attributed to decreasing raw material costs, with lithium prices more than halving since the start of 2023.

The price could continue to fall following the discovery of massive lithium deposits in recent months, most notably within an extinct supervolcano on the border of Nevada and Oregon.

The McDermitt caldera could contain up to 120 million tonnes of lithium, according to recent estimates from geologists, which could potentially meet global battery demand for decades.

Yes I'm still waiting for further price cuts. The competition is just heating up and China has a massive oversupply of batteries. The fear of the Thai government subsidies running out soon might be driving sales in the short term but I don't think the car companies are passing on the full subsidy to the customers anyway.

[ExpatOilWorker]

2 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

Sometimes, it’s not always all about profit.

 

This is a new industry so getting in first carries a lot of advantages. For all intents and purposes, Tesla was the first and their vehicles were definitely not cheap. However, with major companies like BYD and MG joining the race, Tesla is forced to reduce their prices accordingly in order to not lose market share. 
 

The situation now is that those who are late to the party such as the Japanese and German legacy makers are finding high barriers to entry. They just can’t afford to compete on costs which is why they need their governments to help them out. I feel the Chinese automakers can afford to keep going without major profits for much longer in order to crush the competition from other countries carmakers.

 

Such is capitalism.

I partly agree with you, profit doesn't matter.....for now.

I thing we are in the a golden era for EV buyers right now and possibly for another year or so. Let's face it, you get a lot of car in Neta, BYD and MG for the 550-900k baht you pay.

Eventually governments will get tired of paying the bill and manufacturers are done fighting over market share. 

At that point even the Chinese manufacturers will have to sacrifice growth for profit and sell cars at higher prices then we see today.

[JBChiangRai]

55 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

I partly agree with you, profit doesn't matter.....for now.

I thing we are in the a golden era for EV buyers right now and possibly for another year or so. Let's face it, you get a lot of car in Neta, BYD and MG for the 550-900k baht you pay.

Eventually governments will get tired of paying the bill and manufacturers are done fighting over market share. 

At that point even the Chinese manufacturers will have to sacrifice growth for profit and sell cars at higher prices then we see today.

I agree we are currently in a golden era for both buying and running an EV with subsidies on buying an abundant charger network that is barely utilised.

 

Europe is worried they can't compete, and they can't.  What we are seeing is protectionism, probably tariff's on Chinese cars in Europe and America.

 

We won't see it in Thailand, but the lack of models and variants going to Europe could impact us, especially the UK and other right hand drive countries.  MG wouldn't launch the Cyberster in Thailand if there wasn't a big market for it in the UK.

[matchar]

Don't be so quick to write off legacy carmakers such as Toyota. They have the means to catch up with the Chinese and first movers can actually end up at a disadvantage if technology rapidly improves since they have invested a lot in R&D and may end up with stranded assets that are made redundant.

 

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Automobiles/Toyota-gigacasting-prototype-cuts-production-from-hours-to-minutes

[JBChiangRai]

7 minutes ago, matchar said:

Don't be so quick to write off legacy carmakers such as Toyota. They have the means to catch up with the Chinese and first movers can actually end up at a disadvantage if technology rapidly improves since they have invested a lot in R&D and may end up with stranded assets that are made redundant.

 

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Automobiles/Toyota-gigacasting-prototype-cuts-production-from-hours-to-minutes

I think they can catch up on technology but supply chains will be much more difficult, I am specifically thinking about batteries.

 

Tesla & the Chinese have spent a lot of time securing their battery supplies.

[motdaeng]

many established carmakers are not just one step behind tesla and china.

catching up with them and convincing ev owners to switch to their new products

in the coming years can be challenging ... what will be the car prices comparing to

ev's from china ...

 

furthermore, tesla and china will not remain stagnant in their product development.

established carmakers face a big challenge ahead ... 

[matchar]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

I think they can catch up on technology but supply chains will be much more difficult, I am specifically thinking about batteries.

 

Tesla & the Chinese have spent a lot of time securing their battery supplies.

More than enough batteries to go around right now:

https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Caixin/Chinese-battery-makers-brace-for-price-war-to-supply-EV-producers

 

PS if you reach the limit for free articles clear your cookies or open in an incognito tab.

[JBChiangRai]

A dead, irreplaceable battery is often the demise of an otherwise perfectly good piece of equipment, and it can be incredibly frustrating. New research shows, however, that the opposite may be true when it comes to the batteries running electric vehicles.

The Globe and Mail reports that a study done in March by Recurrent Motors Inc. — a Seattle-based battery analysis company — showed that overall, EV batteries are actually very reliable and long-lasting. In fact, they may last longer than the vehicles themselves.

The study took real-world data from 15,000 EVs of various makes and models in the U.S. By linking to the vehicles’ connectivity systems, the company took several battery readings daily, including charging activity, EV battery level, and estimated range.

 

The data showed that most EVs driven close to 100,000 miles still have at least 90 percent of their original range left.

“I was surprised how well batteries are holding up, and how relatively infrequently batteries are being replaced,” Liz Najman, researcher and marketing manager at Recurrent and the study’s author, toldThe Globe and Mail. “That was a shock.”

The publication did report, however, that Najman made sure to point out that individual vehicles vary and that Recurrent’s data is constantly evolving. This is mainly because most EVs aren’t that old, with nearly 30 percent currently on the road in the U.S. being sold just last year. The majority of the rest are less than six years old.

The cost of replacing an EV battery can range from $5,000 to $22,000, which few people would be willing to pay, especially on a used car whose warranty is up. Data from the study positively showed that, outside of official recalls, only 1.5 percent of cars had batteries replaced.

 

The company hopes this promising data will alleviate people’s concerns and encourage them to comfortably switch to an EV, possibly even a used one.

Transportation is the largest contributor of heat-trapping gases. Worldwide, passenger cars produce around 3.3 billion tons of carbon pollution annually. EVs, on the other hand, cut down on heat-trapping air pollution since they produce no exhaust.

So, the more companies like Recurrent can alleviate concern, the more likely people will be to switch to an EV, and the more EVs on the road, the better it is for the planet. Taking away the concern of battery longevity is a great place to start.

“I don’t think I’m alone in the assumption that modern EV batteries should outlast the cars themselves,” Najman said.

 

https://news.yahoo.com/researchers-surprising-discovery-lifespan-ev-110000330.html

 

 

[Bandersnatch]

17 hours ago, matchar said:

Don't be so quick to write off legacy carmakers such as Toyota

How many have seen headlines like this from Toyota? 

 

 

People forget that Toyota has been making claims about solid state batteries since 2014. 

 

 

I have written off Toyota long ago

 

[JBChiangRai]

15 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

 

 

They are not going to sell many at that price, Atto 3 looks far better value.

[KhunLA]

22 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

They are not going to sell many at that price, Atto 3 looks far better value.

Yea, that's a lot of money for the bZAX when the first press release I saw was recall for the wheels possibly falling off.  Feel sorry for Suzuki, as same issue for the Suzuki badged Toyota is producing for them.

 

Must have been more than a few experiencing the wheels saying BYE BYE, as the recall came quick.  Luckily for Toyota (not the owners) and caught before the Suzukis sold.

 

Ouch ... source

Edited September 20, 2023 by KhunLA

[Yellowtail]

On 9/19/2023 at 7:27 AM, Gweiloman said:

Sometimes, it’s not always all about profit.

 

This is a new industry so getting in first carries a lot of advantages. For all intents and purposes, Tesla was the first and their vehicles were definitely not cheap. However, with major companies like BYD and MG joining the race, Tesla is forced to reduce their prices accordingly in order to not lose market share. 
 

The situation now is that those who are late to the party such as the Japanese and German legacy makers are finding high barriers to entry. They just can’t afford to compete on costs which is why they need their governments to help them out. I feel the Chinese automakers can afford to keep going without major profits for much longer in order to crush the competition from other countries carmakers.

 

Such is capitalism.

 I think Tesla's sales issues have more to do with the left's hatred of Elon Musk than competition from companies not selling in the US. 

[matchar]

2 hours ago, Bandersnatch said:

How many have seen headlines like this from Toyota? 

 

 

People forget that Toyota has been making claims about solid state batteries since 2014. 

 

 

I have written off Toyota long ago

 

Yes I would take their solid state battery claims with a pinch of salt but there are plenty of Chinese CATL batteries available that they can use for their next EV model (just as Tesla does).

 

The reason the bZ4X is so expensive in Thailand is because it's made in Japan and subject to import duties unlike the Chinese rivals.

 

Give it a few years and I expect Toyota will have a decent reasonably priced EV made in Thailand probably with a Chinese battery.

[motdaeng]

39 minutes ago, matchar said:

Give it a few years and I expect Toyota will have a decent reasonably priced EV made in Thailand probably with a Chinese battery.

i think a few years have passed already ... it well could be a few years too many ... 

Edited September 20, 2023 by motdaeng

[matchar]

11 minutes ago, motdaeng said:

i think a few years have passed already ... it well could be a few years too many ... 

Yes they are a bit late to the party but Thailand is a very important market for Toyota.

 

My 22 year old Toyota ICE still runs fine and I'm happy to wait for the right time to upgrade to an EV. If I needed one right now I would choose MG but I still have some doubts about how well they will hold up after 20 years.

[JBChiangRai]

3 minutes ago, matchar said:

If I needed one right now I would choose MG but I still have some doubts about how well they will hold up after 20 years.

Probably better than me, I am fairly sure I will be ash by then.

[mistral53]

BYD Seal is getting ready for test drives on Sept 28............ who else will be testing it?

Prices and details will be announced on 9/28 as well.

 

 

[macahoom]

2 minutes ago, mistral53 said:

BYD Seal is getting ready for test drives on Sept 28............ who else will be testing it?

Prices and details will be announced on 9/28 as well.

 

 

 

I have already ordered one but I'm gonna go for a test drive, just in case I don't like it. Although, based on reviews, I can't see me not liking it.

 

I see they are not announcing the prices until 6 or 6:30pm on the 28th. A sceptic might believe the price will not be decided until BYD see how many orders are placed after test drives and/or the general reaction to the car on the 28th. 

[motdaeng]

i have done a "test sitting" in the byd seal at the motor show 03/23,

looking forward to a test drive ...

 

 

[macahoom]

23 minutes ago, mistral53 said:

 

As far as I know, only the AWD version is available in this colour. Which should mean the car in the photo is the AWD version, but in other photos of this car on Facebook, it shows the back and there is no 3.8s badge which the AWD version should have. A little bit strange.

 

Also, the person who took the pics says the seats are white.

 

 

 

 

 

[mistral53]

33 minutes ago, macahoom said:

As far as I know, only the AWD version is available in this colour. Which should mean the car in the photo is the AWD version, but in other photos of this car on Facebook, it shows the back and there is no 3.8s badge which the AWD version should have. A little bit strange.

 

Also, the person who took the pics says the seats are white.

 

 

 

 

 

I much prefer the light colored interior, the black one loses a lot of the design appeal, mimicking the drab German coal-mine obsession.

[macahoom]

1 hour ago, mistral53 said:

 

 

Also: there is no "BUILD YOUR DREAMS" logo on the back.

 

Just a more modest "BYD".

[JBChiangRai]

Another review of the MG Cyberster, it’s looking better and better.  However, some may prefer their V8 smoke machines and pontycrap’s.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyzPB2fGN88

[josephbloggs]

27 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Another review of the MG Cyberster, it’s looking better and better.  However, some may prefer their V8 smoke machines and pontycrap’s.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyzPB2fGN88

It is absolutely stunning. I can't wait until you get yours and can post some first hand experiences.