LTR Visa is Now available for Long Term Residency

[Wagyu]

Thanks guys. Surprised that no card is possble. OK, cash is king. Not a big problem. 

[John207]

Has anyone in here participated in the tax-related Carl Turner Zoom call that was held a few days ago? Regarding the taxing of LTR visa holders, I wonder whether anything significant was mentioned.

[SHA 2 BKK]

13 hours ago, Wagyu said:

Thanks guys. Surprised that no card is possble. OK, cash is king. Not a big problem. 

I had an appointment but my dad got sick so had to head back to Australia but would be great to hear any feedback.   For what it’s worth my Thai Friend who is a lawyer looked closely at the Thai version of the Royal Decree re LTR Visas.   His advice was to go nowhere near the RD as I have only remitted pre 2023 income.   Assuming there are no further changes, as long as I have evidence of “salting” funds offshore in the previous tax year no visit to the RD will be needed whilst I hold the Visa.  

[Desmond77]

Hey guys, big important updates concerning the requirements of the 10-year LTR visa. Just came in, hot from the oven.

 

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/14sALMiRui/

[SHA 2 BKK]

Yes seems the BOI want to make it easier to get LTRs and abolish Smart Visas as they overlap.    Also the 80k income for two years seems to have gone and more dependents allowed.   
 

My reading is that this is a win for the BOI and makes me more confident in our general and tax protections.   

Story is currently running in The Nation. 

 

 

 

[Desmond77]

2 minutes ago, SHA 2 BKK said:

Yes seems the BOI want to make it easier to get LTRs and abolish Smart Visas as they overlap.    Also the 80k income for two years seems to have gone and more dependents allowed.   
 

My reading is that this is a win for the BOI and makes me more confident in our general and tax protections.   

Story is currently running in The Nation. 

 

 

 

With this coming into the picture real soon, it will definitely helps BOI to reach the target of 1M approved cases within 5 years! Very soon, the fast track lane at the airport will no longer be the fast track lane as it is now. lol   

[Ben Zioner]

5 minutes ago, Desmond77 said:

With this coming into the picture real soon, it will definitely helps BOI to reach the target of 1M approved cases within 5 years! Very soon, the fast track lane at the airport will no longer be the fast track lane as it is now. lol   

Yep they want to get as many victims as possible to settle in Thailand before they remove the Income Tax advantages... But I'll  probably be dead then and my beloved best half shouldn't pay IT on her inherited pension. lol too..

[Pib]

1 hour ago, Desmond77 said:

Hey guys, big important updates concerning the requirements of the 10-year LTR visa. Just came in, hot from the oven.

 

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/14sALMiRui/

What does it say?  When I go to that site it requires Device Enrollment and my email address....I would rather not do that.

[Pib]

19 minutes ago, SHA 2 BKK said:

Yes seems the BOI want to make it easier to get LTRs and abolish Smart Visas as they overlap.    Also the 80k income for two years seems to have gone and more dependents allowed.   
 

My reading is that this is a win for the BOI and makes me more confident in our general and tax protections.   

Story is currently running in The Nation. 

 

 

 

 

See weblink for full article ...partial quote below.   Good news it is....will make it easier for some.

 

https://www.nationthailand.com/news/policy/40045152

Cabinet approves easing of conditions for long-term resident visas

The Cabinet on Tuesday eased several conditions for granting long-term resident visas (LTR visas) for wealthy individuals and digital nomads with high incomes, as a means of attracting more potential foreign residents to the kingdom, a well-informed Government House source revealed.

 

The source stated that the Cabinet had approved the proposal from the Office of the Board of Investment (BOI) to ease conditions for granting LTR visas and to revoke Smart visa types, which were deemed to overlap with LTR visas.

 

According to the source, the BOI proposed revisions to the rules for granting LTR visas for three groups: those working remotely from Thailand, wealthy global citizens, and dependents of LTR visa holders.

[Desmond77]

11 minutes ago, Pib said:

 

See weblink for full article.   Good news it is....will make it easier for some.

 

https://www.nationthailand.com/news/policy/40045152

Cabinet approves easing of conditions for long-term resident visas

In a nutshell, below are the changes:

 

WFTP:

1. Instead of USd150M over 3 years for private companies, it will be lowered down to USD50M.

2. The minimum income of USD80k per annum over the past 2 years shall go out of the window

 

WP:

1. The minimum passive income of USD80K will be abolished as well.

 

Dependents:

1. Currently limit to 4 but there shall be no limit on the number of dependents soon.

[Pib]

4 minutes ago, Desmond77 said:

In a nutshell, they are going to abolish the following requirements for LTR applicants:

 

WFTP:

1. Instead of USd150M over 3 years for private companies, it will be lowered down to USD50M.

2. The minimum income of USD80k per annum over the past 2 years shall go out of the window

 

WP:

1. The minimum passive income of USD80K will be abolished as well.

 

Dependents:

1. Currently limit to 4 but there shall be no limit on the number of dependents soon.

 

4 minutes ago, Desmond77 said:

WP:

1. The minimum passive income of USD80K will be abolished as well.

 

Assuming you mean Wealth Pensioner by WP where does the Nation article say that?  Or you got another reference for that?

[Desmond77]

1 minute ago, Pib said:

 

Assuming you mean Wealth Pensioner by WP where does the Nation article say that?  Or you got another reference for that?

Haha.. Yes, you are absolutely correct. WP refers to Wealthy Pensioners.

[Pib]

1 minute ago, Desmond77 said:

Haha.. Yes, you are absolutely correct. WP refers to Wealthy Pensioners.

So, where does the Nation article say the $80K passive income requirement will be abolished for WP?

[Ben Zioner]

1 minute ago, Pib said:

 

Assuming you mean Wealth Pensioner by WP where does the Nation article say that?  Or you got another reference for that?

It doesn't. I wouldn't make sense.  It is the "Wealthy Global Citizens", different beast.

[Desmond77]

Hey guys, my bad for typing in the wrong category of applicants.

 

For the benefit of everyone, I have cut and pasted the whole article here for easy reading.

 

 

 

[oldcpu]

I note the LTR-WGC and LTR-WFTP had the least number of approved applicants, so perhaps that was a factor in the BoI / Cabinet deciding a tuning (via slight reduction) in the requirement for those categories were needed.

 

I find it difficult to believe the full $80K US equivalent annual income for LTR-WGC will be eliminated ... Perhaps it will be a lower number (such as exists for LTR-WP which can get by with $40k US$ equiv + an investment in Thailand), or perhaps the need for the $80K US$ equiv to be shown for 2 years will be relaxed to 1 year?? or perhaps an increase above the current LTR-WGC investment in Thailand .. ie a lot beyond the current $500k US$  ?? ( my speculation).

 

I believe we need to wait for the full details to be announced.  ... 

 

Perhaps I am just a cynic.

[Pib]

Hopefully when full details do become available there will be more good changes that just didn't make the news release because the news reporters considered them minor but could make all the difference to some applicants.  Time will tell. 

 

Just good to hear of these news announced changes.  And I'm a little surprised we didn't hear any rumblings of these changes being under serious consideration are least a few weeks (or months) before BOI went to the cabinet for final approval.  But these were all "good" changes that maybe BOI didn't want to get anyone's hopes up in case they were not approved.  And it also goes to show visa requirements/benefits can also change overnight without warning.

 

Edit: and these changes will further reduce the number of people applying for an Elite visa; not that the HUGE price increase to Elite visas a year or so ago didn't do enough damage. 

[Ben Zioner]

8 minutes ago, Pib said:

Just good to hear of these news announced changes.  And I'm a little surprised we didn't hear any rumblings of these changes being under serious consideration are least a few weeks (or months) before BOI went to the cabinet for final approval. 

Honestly I think this is because this is only fine tuning to a visa that was well designed from in it's first version. Nobody ever believed that corny 1 million visas target. That announcement was probably made by some stupid politician who had no idea. A disservice to BOI's good work.

[Pib]

And I'm really glad to see the change of lifting the "only 4 dependents" limitation.  With that limitation it was kinda like implying Thailand don't want well-off folks who have more than 4 kids.

 

Quote

 

LTR Visas for Dependents

The Cabinet agreed to lift the restriction on the number of dependents eligible under LTR visas. Previously, the number of dependents was capped at four, whereas other visa types had no such restriction.

 

 

[Pib]

5 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Honestly I think this is because this is only fine tuning to a visa that was well designed from in it's first version. Nobody ever believed that corny 1 million visas target. That announcement was probably made by some stupid politician who had no idea. A disservice to BOI's good work.

Indeed it was made by a politician who at the time was one of the government's main gurus who was trying to implement major economic policy changes to increase the Thailand GDP.  I think the announcement was more geared towards the Thai public to make them think this new visa will bring in many, many, many well-off farangs which will be a big boost the economy.   I can just see the BOI folks rolling their eyes as this politician made this exaggerated, aspirational announcement--but hey, that's what politicians often do...just ask Donald Trump.

[Desmond77]

24 minutes ago, Pib said:

Hopefully when full details do become available there will be more good changes that just didn't make the news release because the news reporters considered them minor but could make all the difference to some applicants.  Time will tell. 

 

Just good to hear of these news announced changes.  And I'm a little surprised we didn't hear any rumblings of these changes being under serious consideration are least a few weeks (or months) before BOI went to the cabinet for final approval.  But these were all "good" changes that maybe BOI didn't want to get anyone's hopes up in case they were not approved.  And it also goes to show visa requirements/benefits can also change overnight without warning.

 

No doubt, these changes are really fantastic. At the same time, that may also potentially means that it will be easier for us to pass the review at our 5-year mark and enjoy the remaining 5 years of our hard fought LTR. 

[Pib]

3 hours ago, oldcpu said:

I note the LTR-WGC and LTR-WFTP had the least number of approved applicants, so perhaps that was a factor in the BoI / Cabinet deciding a tuning (via slight reduction) in the requirement for those categories were needed.

 

I find it difficult to believe the full $80K US equivalent annual income for LTR-WGC will be eliminated ... Perhaps it will be a lower number (such as exists for LTR-WP which can get by with $40k US$ equiv + an investment in Thailand), or perhaps the need for the $80K US$ equiv to be shown for 2 years will be relaxed to 1 year?? or perhaps an increase above the current LTR-WGC investment in Thailand .. ie a lot beyond the current $500k US$  ?? ( my speculation).

 

I believe we need to wait for the full details to be announced.  ... 

 

Perhaps I am just a cynic.

 

Regarding elimination of the $80K requirement for WGC, maybe since the requirements currently require $1M in assets, $80K income  "AND" a $500K investment in Thailand BOI decided "three" tough requirements "ALL of which had to be met"...not just 1, not just 2, but all 3 maybe BOI determined meeting all three financial requirement was just too hard.  See current WGC financial requirements at bottom.

 

Having $1M in assets may not be that hard if you already own a house/land (you might have inherited it) or have healthy savings/investments from a life time of work.  So having $1M in assets maybe wasn't a roadblock for a lot of applicants.  1 of 3 requirement met.

 

OK, now the applicant also has to meet the investment in Thai bonds, property, "OR" a Thai company.  That might already be part of the $1M in assets he already owns especially if his $1M in assets includes a pricy Thai condo....a condo he already owns or will buy using part of his $1M assets.   After buying the Thai condo that still counts towards the $1M in assets.  Kinda like killing two birds with one stone.    2 of 3 requirements now met.

 

However, the applicant having $80K in income might be hard.   A person can still be rich "on paper" especially if they already own real estate or have big savings, but in terms of having a lot of  income being generated from that real estate and/or investments is a different story especially if they are retired already.  Maybe they are still employed making a lot less than $80K, living in a nice house that they inherited, and basically just living on the passive income they get from their investments/savings but that income falls short of $80K.  The inability to meet this requirement means 3 of 3 WGC requirement can not be met.  

 

If BOI decided they need to get rid of/adjust at least 1 of the 3 requirements I expect the requirement to invest at least $500K in Thailand is the "least likely" one they would drop.   That leaves either getting rid of/adjusting the $1M in assets and/or $80K in income.  I bet the $80K in income has been the main factor in many WGC applicants falling to qualify.  Like I said, rich "on-paper" but not necessarily a lot of money actually flowing in each year.

 

That's my guess.   But we definitely need to wait for the details "as published by BOI" because Thai media get stuff wrong all the time.  

 

The 3 financial requirements for a LTR WGC Visa...."all 3" must be met. Not 1, not 2, but all 3.

 

 

[Ben Zioner]

8 minutes ago, Pib said:

 That leaves either getting rid of/adjusting the $1M in assets and/or $80K in income.  I bet the $80K in income has been the main factor in many WGC applicants falling to qualify. 

Interestingly you oppose two cultures here: Western European vs US. In Europe pensions  of 70000 Euros are quite common, for my generation a least while higher assets are the norm in the US. For instance in 2022 the average pension, for Swiss men was 52672 (about 58000 USD) while the home ownership is on 37.4 %.

 

Leads me to think that BOI should have kept all 3 criteria, but accept that tone of them be not fully met by some applicants.

[oldcpu]

24 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Interestingly you oppose two cultures here: Western European vs US. In Europe pensions  of 70000 Euros are quite common,

 

i would agree with the term "common" ... but having typed that, such while 'common',  is still I believe far above the average European's pension.

 

For example this article :  https://www.etk.fi/en/work-and-pensions-abroad/international-comparisons/pensioners-income-level-internationally/average-pensions-in-europe/

 

Granted that article is +3 years old, ... but even after 3 years (if one adds inflation increases), even the best average pension is likely far below 70,000 euros/year.

 

However likely some of the retirees have more income than just "old age pension" .  And of course the LTR-WP is called 'wealthy pensioner' , I guess, for a reason. 

 

Still, I can't help but think 70,000 euros/year in Europe is far above the average pension.

 

 

24 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

for my generation a least while higher assets are the norm in the US. For instance in 2022 the average pension, for Swiss men was 52672 (about 58000 USD) while the home ownership is on 37.4 %.

 

Leads me to think that BOI should have kept all 3 criteria, but accept that tone of them be not fully met by some applicants.

 

In 2021 for Swiss it was 2,225 euro/month (according to the link I provided) which is only 26,700 euros/year.  So I assume the average Swiss pensioner then also gets substantial retirement income from sources other than just the 'old age pension' ?

 

I am most curious to learn how this LTR-WGC will turn out.

[Pib]

1 hour ago, Ben Zioner said:

Interestingly you oppose two cultures here: Western European vs US. In Europe pensions  of 70000 Euros are quite common, for my generation a least while higher assets are the norm in the US. For instance in 2022 the average pension, for Swiss men was 52672 (about 58000 USD) while the home ownership is on 37.4 %.

 

Leads me to think that BOI should have kept all 3 criteria, but accept that tone of them be not fully met by some applicants.

The LTR WGC endorsement (approval) rate represents a mere 4% of all LTR visa categories according to stats on the BOI LTR webpage.   Note: See Edit note at bottom...I rewrote this paragraph after being notified of a major error.

 

BOI probably said we obviously made the requirements too high...too tough....we need to do something.   So, what has been the biggest cause of not getting approval based on the three financial requirements?    Has it been total assets owned....willingness to invest at least $500K "in Thailand"....or the $80K income requirement?    Which one was the biggest reason for failure to qualify? 

 

After determining which one was the cause of the most disapprovals they probably concentrated on if they can delete or lower the requirement especially if such a change would result in a big increase of WGC approvals.

 

As mentioned earlier my guess is it was a lot of WGC applicants being rich "on paper" probably due to owning a home (maybe a home right here in Thailand) but receiving a lot less than $80K in actual income....actual cash flow generated from their property/home and investments/savings/job.    But that's just my guess. 

 

Edit: corrected my first paragraph after oldcpu notified me of my error in how I had originally written the 1st paragraph.

[Ben Zioner]

16 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

20 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

In 2021 for Swiss it was 2,225 euro/month (according to the link I provided) which is only 26,700 euros/year.  So I assume the average Swiss pensioner then also gets substantial retirement income from sources other than just the 'old age pension' ?

 

Well that is totally and utterly incomplete, my info is right, and believe me I have been active in Geneva 27 years...

 

https://www.ch.ch/en/retirement/retirement-income/#the-oasi-state-pension-1st-pillar

 

Your figure is only the meager state pension. Swiss have a "2nd pillar" and "3rd pillar", which are their main retirement income.

 

[oldcpu]

15 minutes ago, Pib said:

The LTR WGC endorsement (approval) rate has been a mere 4% according to stats on the BOI LTR webpage.   That's pretty dismal....only 4 out of every 100 WGC applications met the requirements...and who knows, maybe they haven't even received a 100 applications. 

 

 I agree the # of LTR WGC applicants are low.

 

But I interpret the BoI website different than yourself.

 

Looking at the 30-November-2024 statistic reported by BoI, they report  5,775 applicants  (visa qualifications approve) for the LTR visa across all categories.    They also report 229 applies for the LTR WGC.   Note that 229 out of 5,775 is 4%.  That same mathematics applies for the other categories.

 

So i don't think the 4% represents the LTR-WGC approval rate.  Rather it indicates 4% is the relative % of WGC compared to other categories.  ... Frankly, those BoI statistics are IMHO a bit difficult to decipher.

[oldcpu]

1 minute ago, Ben Zioner said:

Well that is totally and utterly incomplete, my info is right, and believe me I have been active in Geneva 27 years...

 

https://www.ch.ch/en/retirement/retirement-income/#the-oasi-state-pension-1st-pillar

 

Your figure is only the meager state pension. Swiss have a "2nd pillar" and "3rd pillar", which are their main retirement income.

 

 

Could be for Switzerland.   I applied such a qualification in my post that there could be other pension incomes.

 

However not every country is like the Swiss.  I lived in Europe for 20 years and I note the pension is fairly low for many countries.

[Pib]

12 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 I agree the # of LTR WGC applicants are low.

 

But I interpret the BoI website different than yourself.

 

Looking at the 30-November-2024 statistic reported by BoI, they report  5,775 applicants  (visa qualifications approve) for the LTR visa across all categories.    They also report 229 applies for the LTR WGC.   Note that 229 out of 5,775 is 4%.  That same mathematics applies for the other categories.

 

So i don't think the 4% represents the LTR-WGC approval rate.

Thanks.  I stand corrected....you are right...it's 4% of total applications consisting of all LTR categories.  I just went back to my earlier post and corrected myself.     But yeap, with the WGC category only representing 4% of the total LTR visa approvals such a low rate screams the WGC requirements are too tough.   

[Ben Zioner]

57 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

Could be for Switzerland.   I applied such a qualification in my post that there could be other pension incomes.

 

However not every country is like the Swiss.  I lived in Europe for 20 years and I note the pension is fairly low for many countries.

BOI aren't looking for retired builders or factory workers, they target people at the middle/higher executive level, and Europe most of those, with a full career, will retire with a pension that is close to their last salary earned. 6000 Euros a month isn't an extravagant salary/pension for an executive. I don't believe any of my former colleagues would earn less than that. There were janitors though...