Transmission on the blink

[toast1]

Suddenly my Nissan K12 Micra, or Match's transmission has started to make loud rattling sounds when in neutral or park.

 

As soon as I go to drive, the sound disappears, and it drives perfectly the gears changing and working without sounds, the oil level is OK.
 

The minute it goes back to Park or neutral, the very loud rattling starts.

 

I'm assuming its the transmission and not the engine, as the noise appears only when the gear stick is in those 2 positions.

 

Any suggestions?


Thanks

 

 

Edited July 10, 2022 by toast1

[Kwasaki]

@transam ????

[transam]

37 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

@transam ????

I did read it, but it is really one of those probs where a head under the hood wiv two ears wide open investigation.

As the ride has a CVT trans, I can't even make a guess. With an old style auto, the converter is always putting pressure on the engine, when you bung into neutral the engine just free floats, so you can hear anything sloppy in the engine, not the box, whether the same happens with a CVT I don't know..

Saying that, a CVT longevity relies on the very special fluid, if it is not changed at the required interval it maybe catastrophic for the box, the old style autos, not so.. 

[Kwasaki]

18 minutes ago, transam said:

I did read it, but it is really one of those probs where a head under the hood wiv two ears wide open investigation.

As the ride has a CVT trans, I can't even make a guess. With an old style auto, the converter is always putting pressure on the engine, when you bung into neutral the engine just free floats, so you can hear anything sloppy in the engine, not the box, whether the same happens with a CVT I don't know..

Saying that, a CVT longevity relies on the very special fluid, if it is not changed at the required interval it maybe catastrophic for the box, the old style autos, not so.. 

Fair call I have no idea either and never came across that one.

The only auto box work I did was replacing the shaft oil seal adjoining the engine which happens on older vehicles.

 

Thats what I changed in my Volvo when it was 21 years old, the auto box was still sound as a pound as we could say at the time. ????

[Kwasaki]

13 hours ago, toast1 said:

Any suggestions

I guess the only solution is off to a Nissan dealership.

 

Does the car move and not hold the car in park is one test

 

It may be a engine shaft end bearing where it joins the auto box but that would not make a sound quickly. 

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Kwasaki

[JAS21]

Google Nissan Micro Forum.  In a MICRA FORUM (micra-forum.com) I see a post ‘what is this sound’…opposite problem to you.. his rattles in drive. Maybe a pointer.

[toast1]

Thanks for the info, its an '05.

 

The car drives normally, park is normal, everything works fine, but as soon as in park or nuteral, there is great rattling sound.

 

thanks

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by toast1

[Liverpool Lou]

20 minutes ago, toast1 said:

Thanks for the info, its an '05.

 

The car drives normally, park is normal, everything works fine, but as soon as in park or nuteral, there is great rattling sound.

 

thanks

 

Perhaps it's a vibration when the engine is running that disappears when any load is introduced by selecting D/R etc. The vibration could cause something under the car to rattle or knock against the underside/exhaust/gearbox such as a heat shield, for example.   Maybe the cat is on it's way out, they can rattle when they're past their best.

 

But, what do I know?!

[Kwasaki]

30 minutes ago, toast1 said:

Thanks for the info, its an '05.

 

The car drives normally, park is normal, everything works fine, but as soon as in park or nuteral, there is great rattling sound.

 

thanks

 

Well get it look at asap would be my advice. 

Good luck. 

[HauptmannUK]

In the UK the K12 Micra was fitted with the Jatco RE4F03 - a conventional four-speed auto with lock up clutch. I assume Thai market cars would be the same. This gearbox was fitted on almost all Nissans of that era - including the Primera, Maxima/QX etc.  Virtually indestructable. The only common fault was internal leak from the oil pump at high mileage leading to oil starvation and failure of various bearings - especially on the torque converter. IIRC we never actually repaired one.

In your case (assuming the noise is coming from the transmission) then it does sound like failure of the TC bushing or possibly the front clutch bearing/assembly.

On a car of this age the best option is probably to fit a secondhand gearbox. But get a decent mechanic to diagnose first.

Schematic diagrams and repair procedures for the gearbox are available here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/12HxsHQXfMpF738Bz7ReKEp71Dt0kIWEJ/view

Edited July 11, 2022 by HauptmannUK

[toast1]

Thanks for the info.

Very interesting

 

The noise has gone now.

 

It was making an incredible rattling sound when in park nuteral.

 

Someone suggested it might not be the tranie but plates or a drive shaft. 

 

Very strange that the noise has disappeared.

 

I could get it diagnosed at a transmission specialist but it is not cheap.

 

I would like to keep the car it's been a great vehicle super reliable.

 

Is it worth spending money on diagnostics now the noise has gone?

 

How can I find out if it's not the tranie but something else?

 

Thanks

Edited July 11, 2022 by toast1

[JAS21]

Whatever caused the noise has probably fallen off then … problem solved lol

[HauptmannUK]

3 hours ago, toast1 said:

Thanks for the info.

Very interesting

 

The noise has gone now.

 

It was making an incredible rattling sound when in park nuteral.

 

Someone suggested it might not be the tranie but plates or a drive shaft. 

 

Very strange that the noise has disappeared.

 

I could get it diagnosed at a transmission specialist but it is not cheap.

 

I would like to keep the car it's been a great vehicle super reliable.

 

Is it worth spending money on diagnostics now the noise has gone?

 

How can I find out if it's not the tranie but something else?

 

Thanks

Given that the noise has stopped then locating its source is going to be difficult.......

If the noise returns get the car straight round to a mechanic.

[toast1]

So, there's no point in having diagnostics done before the noise returns?

I'd rather get it fixed now, if I can find the problem, and save the car, rather than wait, but also don't want to waste money.

 

thanks

 

 

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by toast1

[Kwasaki]

3 minutes ago, HauptmannUK said:

Given that the noise has stopped then locating its source is going to be difficult.......

If the noise returns get the car straight round to a mechanic.

I agree get to a mechanic if you can find one. ????

[toast1]

 

 

go to a mechanic even if there's no noise and all is working perfectly?
Can they still diagnose the fault?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by toast1

[HauptmannUK]

3 hours ago, toast1 said:

 

 

go to a mechanic even if there's no noise and all is working perfectly?
Can they still diagnose the fault?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Speaking as someone who has had to diagnose many faults over the years I would say its probably not worth going to a mechanic at the moment.

No disrespect, but the average driver is pretty poor at describing noises and faults on a car, and even location of a noise.  If you listen to the driver you're quite likely to go off on a wild goose chase.  E.g. they will report 'whine from gearbox' when its actually a bad rear wheel bearing etc.  You will find that most vehicle technicians will want to hear the noise themselves otherwise it can be a waste of time and money for all concerned.

As far as your gearbox in concerned check that the fluid is cherry red colour without any 'glitter' (metal filings) and to the correct level.

[toast1]

Thanks for the info.

The fluid is quiet dark, not cherry red

However I've been warned not to change old auto gear box fluid as this can cause problems or lead to it breaking.

 

The fluid is actually too high, when hot, on the dipstick, but its been like that for years. It goes above the hot limit on the stick, when in neutral, after the engine has been running.

I'll check for glitter. 

 

Would changing the transmission oil be worthwhile, or lead to more problems?


Thanks

 

 

 

[Kwasaki]

11 hours ago, toast1 said:

Go to a mechanic even if there's no noise and all is working perfectly?
Can they still diagnose the fault?

 

Not much point if there's no noise. 

You could ask a mechanic to take the engine and auto box out dismantle it completely and check everything. ????

 

Just change the auto box fluid for now and see what happens.

[Denim]

15 hours ago, toast1 said:

Very strange that the noise has disappeared.

Guilty part has fallen off.

[toast1]

I think I'll wait!

But what about the fluid change?

I've been told not to change transmission oil on old transmissions, as it can break them. Scotty Kilmer on YouTube also says this.

 

The fluid is old, and dark.

 

Should I change it?

 

[transam]

16 minutes ago, toast1 said:

I think I'll wait!

But what about the fluid change?

I've been told not to change transmission oil on old transmissions, as it can break them. Scotty Kilmer on YouTube also says this.

 

The fluid is old, and dark.

 

Should I change it?

 

If its dark, it is stuffed. You may well have stuffed it not changing the fluid.

Smell it, does it smell burned..

Scotty kilmer.............????

[HauptmannUK]

58 minutes ago, toast1 said:

I think I'll wait!

But what about the fluid change?

I've been told not to change transmission oil on old transmissions, as it can break them. Scotty Kilmer on YouTube also says this.

 

The fluid is old, and dark.

 

Should I change it?

 

Your fluid is dark because it is carrying suspended debris (tiny particles of friction material and rubber from seals).  ATF does wear out. It oxidises and the various additives degrade or evaporate.

There is a theory the the detergents aNd dispersants in new fluid will disturb varnish and debris in an old gearbox. However in many years of dealing with automatic transmissions I have never known fresh fluid to harm a box that wan't already on its last legs.  Problem is a customer will bring in a car that's playing up and ask for a fluid change in the hope that its a cheap fix.  A month later the box dies completely and the customer blames the new fluid for 'making it worse'.

For your gearbox I would suggest Valvolene 'High Mileage' Dexron ATF - its available in TH.  It has additives to soften seals and less detergent than standard Dexron fluid.

The gearbox holds 7 litres but you will only drain 3 litres.  So do a drain and refill. Then drive the car few km.  Then do another drain and refill. You will have changed 75% of fluid.

Level is checked with fluid hot and engine running on level ground. Move selector through all positions. Return to P. Check fluid level. Don't overfil.

[toast1]

Great info, thanks

 

I'll check that out...

 

 

Edited July 12, 2022 by toast1

[DavisH]

4 hours ago, HauptmannUK said:

Your fluid is dark because it is carrying suspended debris (tiny particles of friction material and rubber from seals).  ATF does wear out. It oxidises and the various additives degrade or evaporate.

There is a theory the the detergents aNd dispersants in new fluid will disturb varnish and debris in an old gearbox. However in many years of dealing with automatic transmissions I have never known fresh fluid to harm a box that wan't already on its last legs.  Problem is a customer will bring in a car that's playing up and ask for a fluid change in the hope that its a cheap fix.  A month later the box dies completely and the customer blames the new fluid for 'making it worse'.

For your gearbox I would suggest Valvolene 'High Mileage' Dexron ATF - its available in TH.  It has additives to soften seals and less detergent than standard Dexron fluid.

The gearbox holds 7 litres but you will only drain 3 litres.  So do a drain and refill. Then drive the car few km.  Then do another drain and refill. You will have changed 75% of fluid.

Level is checked with fluid hot and engine running on level ground. Move selector through all positions. Return to P. Check fluid level. Don't overfil.

I changed the atf fluid in my civic a few years back. It had beena  few years and  lost track of when I last changed it (at least 40K kms anyway). ure enough after it was changed, I got a fresh leak of atf fluid on my driveway. I took it to a local shop and they changed the gearbox seal for abotu 5K if I recall (the engine neede to be lifted partially to do it, so quite a job. The new fluid must have loosened the gunk stuck to the seal, enabling it to leak (albeit a minor leak). Aside from that, the gearbox worked perfectly fine, even after 250K kms when I sold it. 

[toast1]

Interesting

 

What's your opinion of Skotty Kilner.

 

YouTube's favorite mechanic 

[HauptmannUK]

2 hours ago, DavisH said:

I changed the atf fluid in my civic a few years back. It had beena  few years and  lost track of when I last changed it (at least 40K kms anyway). ure enough after it was changed, I got a fresh leak of atf fluid on my driveway. I took it to a local shop and they changed the gearbox seal for abotu 5K if I recall (the engine neede to be lifted partially to do it, so quite a job. The new fluid must have loosened the gunk stuck to the seal, enabling it to leak (albeit a minor leak). Aside from that, the gearbox worked perfectly fine, even after 250K kms when I sold it. 

Common thing with Hondas is that they get refilled with Dexron ATF because the genuine Honda fluid is expensive. Honda fluid is a bit more viscous and has additives to lubricate seals. Shifting is also a bit smoother with proper Honda fluid.

[HauptmannUK]

2 hours ago, toast1 said:

Interesting

 

What's your opinion of Skotty Kilner.

 

YouTube's favorite mechanic 

I find it hard to watch Scotty - with all the arm waving etc I think he's become a bit of a parody of himself. I agree with the broad thrust of his argument though, that Toyota and Honda are good, but there's only so many ways you can say that before it gets boring.

He's also correct about the shortcomings of some German cars.

Our family business in the UK tends to specialise in MB and BMW/MINI  service and repair. Its a profitable market. In the UK there are large numbers of ex-lease/PCP MB and BMW on the market. The second/third owners invariably cannot afford franchise dealer maintenance costs and that is where we come in. We have the diagnostic tools and equipment to tackle these cars and its not difficult to comfortably undercut dealer prices yet still return a good margin.

We repair other makes too, with the major exception of JLR products.  Toyotas and Hondas seldom give much trouble - largely regular servicing (not much profit) and friction products (big profits).

[seedy]

10 hours ago, toast1 said:

Interesting

What's your opinion of Skotty Kilner.

YouTube's favorite mechanic 

Here is a very skilled German mechanic

 

[JAS21]

15 hours ago, HauptmannUK said:

Your fluid is dark because it is carrying suspended debris (tiny particles of friction material and rubber from seals).  ATF does wear out. It oxidises and the various additives degrade or evaporate.

There is a theory the the detergents aNd dispersants in new fluid will disturb varnish and debris in an old gearbox. However in many years of dealing with automatic transmissions I have never known fresh fluid to harm a box that wan't already on its last legs.  Problem is a customer will bring in a car that's playing up and ask for a fluid change in the hope that its a cheap fix.  A month later the box dies completely and the customer blames the new fluid for 'making it worse'.

For your gearbox I would suggest Valvolene 'High Mileage' Dexron ATF - its available in TH.  It has additives to soften seals and less detergent than standard Dexron fluid.

The gearbox holds 7 litres but you will only drain 3 litres.  So do a drain and refill. Then drive the car few km.  Then do another drain and refill. You will have changed 75% of fluid.

Level is checked with fluid hot and engine running on level ground. Move selector through all positions. Return to P. Check fluid level. Don't overfil.

On some cars it’s very important to change the filter at the same time. Years ago garage ruined the auto on my wife’s Mazda Lantis by not doing so.