The Great Thai Mask debate: Dr Taveesin asks the public in Thailand to continue to wear masks in enclosed spaces

[DavisH]

On 7/15/2022 at 5:41 PM, Reposed said:

someone else's comorbidities do not take precedence over my own health.

 

Surgeons change masks every 20-30 minutes, and, something no one I have ever met knows, supplemental oxygen is pumped into surgical suites because the surgeons are wearing masks. Not a lot of supplemental oxygen in Bangkok.

 

People who would never put Diet Coke in their gas tank, guzzle it and eat garbage I would not feed to my dog, but you want me to respect them?

 

Nope. Not my problem.

How des wearing a mask affect your health? If yu can't manage to wear a mask for half an hour I wouls ay that indicates are you not all that healthy. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

On 7/17/2022 at 1:17 PM, rattlesnake said:

I recently read a great article on the subject by Paul E Alexander, MSc PhD, and other contributors, published on the AIER's website. I am sharing it here. I will also post the conclusion which I found particularly relevant:

 

https://www.aier.org/article/the-cdcs-mask-mandate-study-debunked/

Ahh... him again... a tower of public health credibility.... ????  Whenever I'm seeking out public health guidance, I always look to "economic" research entities who publish articles by dubious academics.

 

"A McMaster University professor is at the centre of a White House controversy over reports he tried to muzzle government scientists, demanded the power to edit COVID-19 documents from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and accused CDC staff of attempting to “hurt” U.S. President Donald Trump.

 

Paul Elias Alexander, an assistant professor of health-research methods at the Hamilton university, joined the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services earlier this year. He was brought in as a scientific adviser to Michael Caputo, a former Trump campaign staffer with no scientific or medical background installed as HHS’s assistant secretary of public affairs in April.

 

On Wednesday, HHS announced Dr. Alexander is “leaving the department” permanently and Mr. Caputo will take a 60-day medical absence."

 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/us-politics/article-mcmaster-university-professor-embroiled-in-white-house-controversy-for/

 

"Alexander was recruited from his part-time, unpaid position at McMaster University to serve as an aide to HHS assistant secretary for public affairs Michael Caputo in March 2020."

 

"McMaster University distanced itself from Alexander, saying, "As a consultant, he is not speaking on behalf of McMaster University or the Department of Health Research Methods, Evidence, and Impact."[6]"

 

After leaving the Trump administration:

 

"He is a participant in the Freedom Convoy 2022 protest against vaccine mandates in Ottawa.[19] He is a "board advisor" for "Taking Back our Freedoms", a group whose stated goal is "to bring a quick end to the so-called ‘C-19 health emergencies’ along with their unlawful ‘mandates’"

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_E._Alexander

 

And according to his own website, he's also no longer affiliated with McMaster University....

 

"He is a former Assistant Professor at McMaster University in evidence-based medicine."

 

https://www.drpaulalexander.com/pages/work-history

 

In other words, he's a right-wing fringe academic who got drummed out of the U.S. Health and Human Services agency after being installed there by a no public health background Trump flunky.

 

 

Edited July 19, 2022 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[notrub]

BRAVO!!!!  It is clear that masks help contain the exhaled water vapor and snot that the microscopic virus rides on.  Masks also protect those inhaling air too.  Without an undesirable extra dose of virus-laden snot.  

 

Anybody take note of the rise in numbers of covid infections in those countries where the mask mandate ended some time ago?  The newest version of covid is much much more transmissible and only a fool would go into a crowded indoor space without a mask.    (any nationality, gender, race, age, colour etc. etc.)

[rattlesnake]

57 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Ahh... him again... a tower of public health credibility.... ????  Whenever I'm seeking out public health guidance, I always look to "economic" research entities who publish articles by dubious academics.

 

"A McMaster University professor is at the centre of a White House controversy over reports he tried to muzzle government scientists, demanded the power to edit COVID-19 documents from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and accused CDC staff of attempting to “hurt” U.S. President Donald Trump.

 

Paul Elias Alexander, an assistant professor of health-research methods at the Hamilton university, joined the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services earlier this year. He was brought in as a scientific adviser to Michael Caputo, a former Trump campaign staffer with no scientific or medical background installed as HHS’s assistant secretary of public affairs in April.

 

On Wednesday, HHS announced Dr. Alexander is “leaving the department” permanently and Mr. Caputo will take a 60-day medical absence."

 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/us-politics/article-mcmaster-university-professor-embroiled-in-white-house-controversy-for/

 

"Alexander was recruited from his part-time, unpaid position at McMaster University to serve as an aide to HHS assistant secretary for public affairs Michael Caputo in March 2020."

 

"McMaster University distanced itself from Alexander, saying, "As a consultant, he is not speaking on behalf of McMaster University or the Department of Health Research Methods, Evidence, and Impact."[6]"

 

After leaving the Trump administration:

 

"He is a participant in the Freedom Convoy 2022 protest against vaccine mandates in Ottawa.[19] He is a "board advisor" for "Taking Back our Freedoms", a group whose stated goal is "to bring a quick end to the so-called ‘C-19 health emergencies’ along with their unlawful ‘mandates’"

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_E._Alexander

 

And according to his own website, he's also no longer affiliated with McMaster University....

 

"He is a former Assistant Professor at McMaster University in evidence-based medicine."

 

https://www.drpaulalexander.com/pages/work-history

 

In other words, he's a right-wing fringe academic who got drummed out of the U.S. Health and Human Services agency after being installed there by a no public health background Trump flunky.

 

 

This is not about public health guidance per se. He co-wrote an article which offers very interesting insights from a political viewpoint. If you look at my post again, you will see I added this article to illustrate a point I was making on the dubious modern-day relationship between science and politics.

 

As always, rather than focusing on the author and finding reasons to discard his work, I would have preferred some dialectically valid counter-arguments on the actual content, which would have involved reading the article and explaing why (if applicable) some points raised are questionable. Something closer to a real-life discussion, in person, where one has to rely on their knowledge and debating abilities without Google as an aid to add credibility to their claims.

 

In other words, a little less link-posting and a little more argumentation would be welcome ????

[KhunLA]

On 7/15/2022 at 12:35 PM, RandiRona said:

Anyone who feel like wearing should and anyone who dont want to should not. 

Easy decision!!

Sums it up for me. 

 

I only wear in 7-11 & Makro, with nose uncovered, as don't think you can enter the stores without.  Or rare occasion of visiting another chain vendor; Global, HomePro.

[Senior Player]

2 hours ago, notrub said:

BRAVO!!!!  It is clear that masks help contain the exhaled water vapor and snot that the microscopic virus rides on.  Masks also protect those inhaling air too.  Without an undesirable extra dose of virus-laden snot.  

 

Anybody take note of the rise in numbers of covid infections in those countries where the mask mandate ended some time ago?  The newest version of covid is much much more transmissible and only a fool would go into a crowded indoor space without a mask.    (any nationality, gender, race, age, colour etc. etc.)

What about South Korea where face masks are still compulsory indoors and on public transport? They have been experiencing a recent spike in Covid cases with Kim Jong Un blaming its neighbour for their own huge Covid spike. Note: mask wearing is also compulsory in North Korea. Did Singapore ever relax their mask wearing mandate for indoor and on public transport? Not that I'm aware. The only mandate that Singapore did away with was its strict outdoor mask rule in late March. And yet, all this mask wearing isn't preventing Singapore from experiencing a huge spike in Covid cases either.

 

Also worth noting, Singapore had administered enough booster doses to cover almost 70% of the population – far more than Britain or the United States, but doesn't appear to be stopping another deadly post-vaccination wave.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Senior Player

[Stocky]

Quote

The Great Thai Mask debate

Well it isn't is it?

 

This isn't a debate Thais are having, this is a 'debate', if you can call it that, largely amongst foreigners. It's a issue primarily in areas with significant concentrations of western tourists and expats, and much of the for and against is based on political outlook rather than science. If you venture into areas away from westerners, Hat Yai for example, mask wearing is still near 100%.

 

I'm perfectly happy to continue wearing a mask, up until last week I'd not had a cold or flu in two years, that's until my granddaughter brought a nasty flu back from school. Mask wearing at school is enforced, though not in the food court.

[rattlesnake]

2 hours ago, Senior Player said:

Also worth noting, Singapore had administered enough booster doses to cover almost 70% of the population – far more than Britain or the United States, but doesn't appear to be stopping another deadly post-vaccination wave.

Which begs the question: what's the point of getting 'vaccinated'?

[unblocktheplanet]

On 7/16/2022 at 6:28 AM, hotchilli said:

Westerners tend to be more confrontational about being told what to do.

Except we aren's 'being told what to do'! Common courtesy & respect, following the cultural norms for everyone to feel comfortable. Suck it up!

[ThailandRyan]

13 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

Which begs the question: what's the point of getting 'vaccinated'?

All vaccinations wane with time and why every year certain vaccinations require the annual booster like the Flu, Pneumonia, etc, and others need one every 5 or 10 years like tetanus, and Hepatitis B after checking for tither levels. Shingles is another one......so whats your point.  Don't take one if you think it does not help, but the virus's all mutate and so a new vaccine booster must be created......Have not seen one yet that has been created for the B.A. 4 or B.A. 5 variant, have you?

[rattlesnake]

3 hours ago, ThailandRyan said:

All vaccinations wane with time and why every year certain vaccinations require the annual booster like the Flu, Pneumonia, etc, and others need one every 5 or 10 years like tetanus, and Hepatitis B after checking for tither levels. Shingles is another one......so whats your point.  Don't take one if you think it does not help, but the virus's all mutate and so a new vaccine booster must be created......Have not seen one yet that has been created for the B.A. 4 or B.A. 5 variant, have you?

So according to this rationale, there is potentially no limit to the number of shots one can take as long as new 'variants' continue to emerge. 4 shots in the space of 15 months was already unprecedented and some European Union regulators such as the European Medicines Agency have already started warning against this approach, which is just not sustainable:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-11/repeat-booster-shots-risk-overloading-immune-system-ema-says

Boosters “can be done once, or maybe twice, but it’s not something that we can think should be repeated constantly,” Marco Cavaleri, the EMA head of biological health threats and vaccines strategy, said at a press briefing on Tuesday. “We need to think about how we can transition from the current pandemic setting to a more endemic setting.”

 

Why not just admit that it doesn't work? The only ones truly benefitting from these vaccine-oriented policies are the pharmaceutical giants, such as Pfizer whose operational growth exceeded 92% last year with a turnover of $81.3 billion:

https://www.pharmaceutical-technology.com/news/pfizer-full-year-2021-revenues/

 

And finally, as I can already hear you say "let's agree to disagree and move on", the reason why I'm spending so much time posting here is because I am seeing an alarming number of people who are having health issues since taking the shots (lots of them are catching Covid for a start, but not only: chronic fatigue, brain fog, ear issues such as tinnitus or strange eye infections, migraines etc.) and they are being ignored. I believe everyone can contribute to pushing for the truth, even at humble levels such as what I'm doing here.

 

Thanks.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

ECDC and EMA update recommendations on additional booster doses of COVID-19 vaccines

Press release

11 Jul 2022

 

The European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control (ECDC) and the European Medicines Agency (EMA) are recommending that second booster doses of COVID-19 vaccines be considered for people between 60 and 79 years old and people with medical conditions putting them at high risk of severe disease.

...

As a new wave is currently underway in Europe, with increasing rates of hospital and intensive care unit (ICU) admissions, it is critical that public health authorities now consider people between 60 and 79 as well as vulnerable persons of any age for a second booster.

...

Stella Kyriakides, the European Commissioner for Health and Food Safety said that ‘Our COVID-19 vaccines work, and offer good levels of protection against severe illness and hospitalisation. With cases and hospitalisations rising again as we enter the summer period, I urge everybody to get vaccinated and boosted as quickly as possible."

 

https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/news-events/ecdc-and-ema-update-recommendations-additional-booster-doses-covid-19-vaccines

 

 

 

[ozimoron]

19 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

Which begs the question: what's the point of getting 'vaccinated'?

Those numbers would logically be higher without masks and vaccines. BA.4 and BA.4 are now the most dominant strains and much more infectious than any previous strain of coronavirus.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I believe the current state of knowledge on COVID vaccines, even with the latest variants, is that while their protection against INFECTION tends to wane substantially after several months post injection, their protection against SERIOUS ILLNESS and DEATH from COVID is more effective and more long-lasting.

 

Thus there remains good arguments for  keeping up with vaccine boosters, especially for those in the older age groups and other vulnerable populations. No, the current vaccines aren't a 100% guarantee against becoming infected or even against becoming ill. But they substantially reduce your odds of becoming seriously ill or dying from COVID, as shown below.

 

"Being up to date on COVID-19 vaccines continue to provide strong protection against severe disease, hospitalization, and death in adults, including during Omicron variant predominance. Effectiveness against infection has waned across all age groups, but this is expected. Protection is highest in adults who receive a booster dose."

 

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccine-effectiveness

 

 

 

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#rates-by-vaccine-status

 

 

[Senior Player]

I should also have added New Zealand to the list of countries (Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan, China) that have strict mask mandates but where Covid infections have risen or are still rising faster than maskless countries. New data shows Covid infections and deaths in New Zealand have overtaken Australia in the latest Omicron wave despite ultra-strict mask mandates that were dropped in Australia. Death rates in New Zealand overtook Australia per capita at the start of March, despite the Kiwis being on the highest code red mask mandate restrictions—and have stayed higher ever since. Additionally, Jacinda Ardern is paying the price for her hermit Zero-Covid economy as New Zealand is crashing into a hard recession. Just thought I should add that as a continuation to my previous post.

[Senior Player]

2 hours ago, ozimoron said:

Those numbers would logically be higher without masks and vaccines. BA.4 and BA.4 are now the most dominant strains and much more infectious than any previous strain of coronavirus.

I think the point @rattlesnake was making was in reference to my own post that mentioned how Singapore has administered enough booster doses to cover almost 70% of the population—far more than Britain or the United States—but doesn't appear to be stopping another deadly post-vaccination wave. Singapore has one of the most ultra-strict mask mandates in the world, so logically the masks should prevent the spread of the virus regardless of the enhanced transmissibility of the new variants. If your argument is that protective masks work, then you can't have it both ways and claim the new strains are somehow being sneaky and bypassing the protective masks and infecting people. I'm not suggesting you are making this claim, but I've seen it crop up from time to time.

 

Though I should put a caveat from the Ministry of Health in Singapore who has stated as recently as this Saturday: "There is currently no evidence to indicate that BA.2.75 has substantially different virulence or severity compared to its Omicron predecessors."

Edited July 20, 2022 by Senior Player

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

57 minutes ago, Senior Player said:

I should also have added New Zealand to the list of countries (Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan, China) that have strict mask mandates but where Covid infections have risen or are still rising faster than maskless countries. New data shows Covid infections and deaths in New Zealand have overtaken Australia in the latest Omicron wave despite ultra-strict mask mandates that were dropped in Australia. Death rates in New Zealand overtook Australia per capita at the start of March, despite the Kiwis being on the highest code red mask mandate restrictions—and have stayed higher ever since. Additionally, Jacinda Ardern is paying the price for her hermit Zero-Covid economy as New Zealand is crashing into a hard recession. Just thought I should add that as a continuation to my previous post.

 

Were you going to provide any actual substantiating sources for any of the numerous allegedly factual claims you're making in your two posts above?

 

[ozimoron]

36 minutes ago, Senior Player said:

I think the point @rattlesnake was making was in reference to my own post that mentioned how Singapore has administered enough booster doses to cover almost 70% of the population—far more than Britain or the United States—but doesn't appear to be stopping another deadly post-vaccination wave. Singapore has one of the most ultra-strict mask mandates in the world, so logically the masks should prevent the spread of the virus regardless of the enhanced transmissibility of the new variants. If your argument is that protective masks work, then you can't have it both ways and claim the new strains are somehow being sneaky and bypassing the protective masks and infecting people. I'm not suggesting you are making this claim, but I've seen it crop up from time to time.

 

Though I should put a caveat from the Ministry of Health in Singapore who has stated as recently as this Saturday: "There is currently no evidence to indicate that BA.2.75 has substantially different virulence or severity compared to its Omicron predecessors."

BA.2.75? Every other country is saying that BA.4 and BA.5 are the current most common varieties and they are significantly more virulent that previous viruses. Infections are rising fast world wide.

 

Protective masks DO work, anything else is misinformation and if you want to claim otherwise you need to provide a link.

Edited July 20, 2022 by ozimoron

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Just because some country has this or that mask policy vs another that doesn't have the same kind of policy doesn't mean much in terms of comparing COVID case counts / outcomes.

 

Some people follow and abide by mask policies, others follow them only for apperance sake or not at all. And those kinds of practices can vary widely among different population segments/groups in a given country.

 

And then when their COVID cases start piling up, who's to say whether all those in the positive case counts category were among those strictly following the local masking requirements vs. those ignoring them? You just can't draw many meaningful conclusions from those kinds of comparisons.

 

I look at it from a more basic perspective: when you go to the hospital and check the doctors and nurses treating potential or actual COVID patients, as a general rule, they're all going to be wearing N95 face masks or better (better being powered respirator units, among others). And that's because the mainstream medical community knows that N95 face masks fitted and worn properly help protect the wearers from COVID.

 

At least during those work times that the masks are being worn. After the medical staff leave work, take off their masks, and go out into the big wide world, anything potentially can happen. No one wears face masks 24 hours a day.

 

 

 

Edited July 20, 2022 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[onthedarkside]

Two posts citing a disallowed, non-credible news source and a trolling post have been removed, along with another post quoting a news report without the required weblink to the original source.

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

5 hours ago, Senior Player said:

Death rates in New Zealand overtook Australia per capita at the start of March, despite the Kiwis being on the highest code red mask mandate restrictions—and have stayed higher ever since. Additionally, Jacinda Ardern is paying the price for her hermit Zero-Covid economy as New Zealand is crashing into a hard recession. Just thought I should add that as a continuation to my previous post.

 Your entirely unsourced comments above re New Zealand appear to be pretty misleading, not surprisingly....especially regarding the issue of face masks, as shown below.

 

It wasn't NZ's strict enforcement of COVID prevention policies such as mask wearing that has led to their recent COVID surges, but rather, their relaxing of those original tough policies that's led to more people there getting ill from COVID.

 

New Zealand seeks to repeat world-beating Covid response in face of surging cases

Amid warnings of a healthcare workforce collapse, the population is being urged to recommit to pandemic measures many thought were behind them

 

"In supermarkets and coffee queues, New Zealand’s chins are reappearing. Masks – previously a constant - have become patchy. Once-ubiquitous bottles of hand sanitiser begun to disappear. In some venues, laminated contact-tracing codes are peeling off the walls.

 

The country, which once embraced snap lockdowns in the face of a single Covid case, has in recent months progressively dropped restrictions and carried on as thousands of people have been infected. Now, looking down the barrel of a rising wave of infections and a growing death toll, New Zealand faces the question of whether it can reclaim its reputation for a world-beating Covid response."

 

(more)

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jul/16/new-zealand-seeks-to-repeat-world-beating-covid-response-in-face-of-surging-cases