By raft and on foot, migrants cross Rio Grande from Mexico to Texas

[Chomper Higgot]

6 minutes ago, transam said:

Do the undocumented illegal immigrants pay taxes on their earnings...?

They pay taxes on the goods and services they buy.

 

If there is tax evasion in payroll then that’s a felony committed by the payer.

[transam]

5 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

They pay taxes on the goods and services they buy.

 

If there is tax evasion in payroll then that’s a felony committed by the payer.

????............So no income tax and whatever on earnings, blimey, wouldn't the locals like that.....????

[Chomper Higgot]

3 minutes ago, transam said:

????............So no income tax and whatever on earnings, blimey, wouldn't the locals like that.....????

You are wrong again:

 

https://eu.dispatch.com/story/news/2021/03/15/undocumented-ohio-immigrants-taxes-no-benefits/4628218001/

[Hanaguma]

11 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The services California provides are paid for by the taxes paid by people residing in California, very many of whom are undocumented immigrants.

I guess then that California would be happy if Texas and Arizona were to bus their thousands of illegals to Cali instead of to New York or Washington DC then? Because the mayors of those cities are complaing about the cost, crowding, etc. 

[candide]

3 hours ago, placeholder said:

If Republicans were actually serious about stopping illegal immigration the solution is simple:  make hiring undocumented immigrants a felony. Locking up a slew of bosses would do wonders in that regard. But for some reason they refuse to take that step. Maybe they don't want to anger the farmers and other agricultural interests who provide a solid base of support and who depend on illegal immigrants for labor?

Not to mention Trump who was employing illegal immigrants...

[candide]

2 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

That is such a tired and racist shibboleth, please stop using it. There are NO jobs that Americans refuse to do. There ARE jobs that Americans refuse to do because the pay is too low, and is driven to low levels by competition from illegal immigrants. That is one of the biggest problems about illegal immigration- it hurts BIPOC Americans and those in the lower economic deciles the most. Without the presence of illegals, the free market could determine the correct wages for all jobs.  

Is it really the problem? The unemployment rate is low, businesses are often complaining they cannot hire enough employees, and wages have been rising.

[Hanaguma]

10 minutes ago, candide said:

Is it really the problem? The unemployment rate is low, businesses are often complaining they cannot hire enough employees, and wages have been rising.

Yes, unemployment is low because people have stopped looking for work. The key number is actually the workforce participation rate. It still is below pre-covid levels and shows little sign of rising. Ten years ago it was 65%, now only 62%. This is a measure of how many people are actually being productive. 

 

Businesses can hire, if they pay enough.   I think most people would be willing to pay an extra dime for a head of lettuce if they could be sure it was picked by a legal American resident or citizen.

[candide]

1 hour ago, Hanaguma said:

Yes, unemployment is low because people have stopped looking for work. The key number is actually the workforce participation rate. It still is below pre-covid levels and shows little sign of rising. Ten years ago it was 65%, now only 62%. This is a measure of how many people are actually being productive. 

 

Businesses can hire, if they pay enough.   I think most people would be willing to pay an extra dime for a head of lettuce if they could be sure it was picked by a legal American resident or citizen.

You are assuming that the reason for the lower participation rate is low wages. It's not what I read in articles about it. Reasons often evoked are that people are bored with <deleted> jobs, extensive working hours,  and other reasons such as childcare or early retirement.

"The share of the population that is working or looking for work remains 1.2 percentage points below their February 2020 values, as Americans that left work during the pandemic are coming back slowly due in part due to childcare and early retirement. source: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics"

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/labor-force-participation-rate#:~:text=Labor Force Participation Rate in the United States averaged 62.85,percent in December of 1954.

 

You are also assuming that the non-participating population would be able to do such agricultural hard work. This is far from obvious. Young and energetic people don't can find work rather easily. I would rather assume that the non-participants are not very fit (I.e. in the oldest age range, over 50) and are not able to dig or harvest 8 hours a day under the Californian sun.

Edited July 22, 2022 by candide

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, Hanaguma said:

Yes, unemployment is low because people have stopped looking for work. The key number is actually the workforce participation rate. It still is below pre-covid levels and shows little sign of rising. Ten years ago it was 65%, now only 62%. This is a measure of how many people are actually being productive. 

Starting in 2013, the U.S. labor force participation rate held steady around 63% until the COVID-19 pandemic struck. It was 62.3% as of May 2022. ..

From 2013 on, the monthly figures held steady in the vicinity of 63%, after a sharp decline in the wake of the Great Recession. However, in early 2020, the labor force participation rate fell markedly, dropping from 63.4% to 61.4% in the first half of the year, as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic. 

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/participationrate.asp#:~:text=Starting in 2013%2C the U.S.,a steady decline since 1990.

One of the problems with the labor force participation rate is that it includes all people aged 16 or old except convicts, people in nursing homes or mental hospitals, and soldiers, So as the population ages, that figure is up against some downward pressure.

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, Hanaguma said:

Businesses can hire, if they pay enough.   I think most people would be willing to pay an extra dime for a head of lettuce if they could be sure it was picked by a legal American resident or citizen.

That's dubious when it comes to agricultural labor. It's almost literally backbreaking work. The kind of thing you have to grow up with. And it's not clear that you can pay Americans enough to work in the dangerous conditions offered by slaughterhouses. Dairy farming would take a huge hit because it requires pretty much around the clock attendance on site.

Anyway, when I see evidence the the same politicians who so ardently support building a wall, and generally make life miserable for illegal immigrants, pass legislation to punish those who hire illegals, then I'll concede you have a point.

[EVENKEEL]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

That's dubious when it comes to agricultural labor. It's almost literally backbreaking work. The kind of thing you have to grow up with. And it's not clear that you can pay Americans enough to work in the dangerous conditions offered by slaughterhouses. Dairy farming would take a huge hit because it requires pretty much around the clock attendance on site.

Anyway, when I see evidence the the same politicians who so ardently support building a wall, and generally make life miserable for illegal immigrants, pass legislation to punish those who hire illegals, then I'll concede you have a point.

So what you saying is you want to deport every illegal working in the US, because if you want to punish the employer then the employee must also suffer.

 

The flow of illegals entering across our southern border needs to be stopped before you can realistically enforce existing laws and make new ones to tackle this problem.

 

Illegals have been picking in Ca. since forever, I don't see that changing. Dairy workers? yeah I don't see the illegals being replaced here either.

 

it's jobs in the building trades, warehousing and manufacturing that needs to return to legal residents.

[blackshadow]

6 hours ago, metisdead said:

 

Please note this topic is in the World News forum where other news from around the world is posted. 

ok no problem

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, EVENKEEL said:

So what you saying is you want to deport every illegal working in the US, because if you want to punish the employer then the employee must also suffer.

 

The flow of illegals entering across our southern border needs to be stopped before you can realistically enforce existing laws and make new ones to tackle this problem.

 

Illegals have been picking in Ca. since forever, I don't see that changing. Dairy workers? yeah I don't see the illegals being replaced here either.

 

it's jobs in the building trades, warehousing and manufacturing that needs to return to legal residents.

That’s a very strange logic.

 

 

[Scott]

The situation at the border will not be solved until the problem of why people are leaving their home country is corrected.  The general state of lawlessness and gang violence in Central America is fueling the movement of people.  It is exacerbated by grinding poverty.  As long as those conditions exist, people will move.  

 

Of those leaving, there is a percent that are political refugees and who have the right to have a hearing.  When people cross the border and present themselves to CBP and declare asylum, they are given a preliminary screening and if that is deemed to be credible, they are allowed to remain in the US pending a full hearing.  The vast majority of people crossing the border, do not claim asylum.  

 

There are laws in place to remove people who are in the US illegally.  Enforce those laws and do so quickly.  Allowing people to remain for years makes removing them difficult.  They get married, they have children, jobs and a life in the US.  The courts are then faced with deporting a husband or a parent of a US citizen.  

 

But the problem actually lies in the home country and if you want to solve the problem, do it there and you won't have people attempting to leave in large numbers.  

[Hanaguma]

6 hours ago, placeholder said:

That's dubious when it comes to agricultural labor. It's almost literally backbreaking work. The kind of thing you have to grow up with. And it's not clear that you can pay Americans enough to work in the dangerous conditions offered by slaughterhouses. Dairy farming would take a huge hit because it requires pretty much around the clock attendance on site.

Anyway, when I see evidence the the same politicians who so ardently support building a wall, and generally make life miserable for illegal immigrants, pass legislation to punish those who hire illegals, then I'll concede you have a point.

I agree completely that those who hire illegals should pay.   But reality is that only about 1.3 million illegal immigrants actually work on farms. The rest are in the service industries like hospitality, construction, and so on.  Shouldnt be too hard to replace the farm workers, with a combination of higher wages and immigration enforcement.   As forthe others, too many businesses have been getting away with turning a blind eye for too long. Americans used to make their own beds and flip their own burgers, they can do it again with the right incentives. 

[Scott]

A post advocating harm has been removed.  Continue and face a suspension. 

 

[placeholder]

6 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

I agree completely that those who hire illegals should pay.   But reality is that only about 1.3 million illegal immigrants actually work on farms. The rest are in the service industries like hospitality, construction, and so on.  Shouldnt be too hard to replace the farm workers, with a combination of higher wages and immigration enforcement.   As forthe others, too many businesses have been getting away with turning a blind eye for too long. Americans used to make their own beds and flip their own burgers, they can do it again with the right incentives. 

So what's stopping all those ferocious politicians advocating walls and increased deportations from passing laws to make hiring illegals a felony?

[EVENKEEL]

8 minutes ago, placeholder said:

So what's stopping all those ferocious politicians advocating walls and increased deportations from passing laws to make hiring illegals a felony?

So let's say one day a slaughterhouse employing 150 illegals gets busted and the employer gets charged with a felony. This means you also believe all 150 illegals should be arrested on the spot and deported.

[Credo]

3 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

So let's say one day a slaughterhouse employing 150 illegals gets busted and the employer gets charged with a felony. This means you also believe all 150 illegals should be arrested on the spot and deported.

You do know that everyone has to go to court.  The one with the best lawyer will be the employer, but since these are usually owned by a conglomerate, the most they will get is a fine.  The employees will be held in custody and no hearing if they have an order of deportation.  

 

Businesses are very seldom ever punished even when they know full well employees are illegal.

 

[placeholder]

12 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

So let's say one day a slaughterhouse employing 150 illegals gets busted and the employer gets charged with a felony. This means you also believe all 150 illegals should be arrested on the spot and deported.

Nowhere have I advocated for this. I'm simply pointing out the blatant hypocrisy of those who claim that illegal immigration is a dire threat to the United States but refuse to take measures that would bring it to a halt.

Edited July 23, 2022 by placeholder

[Hanaguma]

8 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Nowhere have I advocated for this. I'm simply pointing out the blatant hypocrisy of those who claim that illegal immigration is a dire threat to the United States but refuse to take measures that would bring it to a halt.

Why not? Seems only fair to punish both the employer and the employee who knowingly work illegally.  You cannot do one without the other.  If the workers are in the US illegally, they need to go. THEN you can use that evidence to prosecute the employer. Can't do it the other way around.  

[placeholder]

Just now, Hanaguma said:

Why not? Seems only fair to punish both the employer and the employee who knowingly work illegally.  You cannot do one without the other.  If the workers are in the US illegally, they need to go. THEN you can use that evidence to prosecute the employer. Can't do it the other way around.  

The fact is that those who claim that illegal immigration is a dire threat to the United States refuse to take steps that could eliminate it. 

As for why not...well, right now US unemployment is already close to record lows. Where are these workers going to come from?

[placeholder]

It should also be noted that virtually all of those politicians who most vociferously claim to be opposed to illegal immigration are also opposed to establishing a decent minimum wage in the USA.

[EVENKEEL]

6 minutes ago, placeholder said:

The fact is that those who claim that illegal immigration is a dire threat to the United States refuse to take steps that could eliminate it. 

As for why not...well, right now US unemployment is already close to record lows. Where are these workers going to come from?

How can any sane individual think these numbers are sustainable and not a threat.

 

https://nypost.com/2022/06/16/migrant-encounters-at-us-border-hit-another-high-in-may/

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

How can any sane individual think these numbers are sustainable and not a threat.

 

https://nypost.com/2022/06/16/migrant-encounters-at-us-border-hit-another-high-in-may/

You mean the economy can't absorb them?

There's also the fact, that you seem unaware of, that this is a 2 way phenomenon. Illegal immigrants also leave the country to return to wherever they come from. In other words it's not just about addition but also subtraction.

[Hanaguma]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

The fact is that those who claim that illegal immigration is a dire threat to the United States refuse to take steps that could eliminate it. 

As for why not...well, right now US unemployment is already close to record lows. Where are these workers going to come from?

Check the labor participation rate. There are plenty of people of productive age who are not working. OR, start a better visa/guest worker program. Process people in their home countries, vet them, and hook them up with reputable employers. No need for millions to rush the border.

[EVENKEEL]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

You mean the economy can't absorb them?

There's also the fact, that you seem unaware of, that this is a 2 way phenomenon. Illegal immigrants also leave the country to return to wherever they come from. In other words it's not just about addition but also subtraction.

Your response is dripping in desperation I'm afraid and lacks sincerity. 

[placeholder]

26 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Your response is dripping in desperation I'm afraid and lacks sincerity. 

Clearly you have answer for the facts I've raised  and try to make it personal instead. You have no answer for whether or not the economy can absorb these immigrants. You have no answer for the fact the immigration is a 2 way street. Illegal immigrants come and go. 

[placeholder]

29 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Check the labor participation rate. There are plenty of people of productive age who are not working. OR, start a better visa/guest worker program. Process people in their home countries, vet them, and hook them up with reputable employers. No need for millions to rush the border.

And why would these people who haven't been working, start to work now for low paying strenuous jobs? 

And I don't think it's a bad idea to start a guest worker program. What's stopping the opponents of illegal immigration from doing just that? Maybe they know that employers prefer workers who by force of circumstance have no legal protection?

[Hanaguma]

30 minutes ago, placeholder said:

And why would these people who haven't been working, start to work now for low paying strenuous jobs? 

And I don't think it's a bad idea to start a guest worker program. What's stopping the opponents of illegal immigration from doing just that? Maybe they know that employers prefer workers who by force of circumstance have no legal protection?

You need to incentivize the lazy to get off their collective bums and get productive.  Cut unemployment benefits and welfare for healthy singles, for example.  Pay subsidies to farms that employ legal residents with the savings.  Allow people to work and keep part of their benefits.

 

I think the people who want illegal immigation stopped DO want to improve the system. But they want the border to be secured first. No point in changing laws for guest workers if illegals are still pouring over at the rate of over 100,000 people per month. Fix the border, then fix the outdated immigration laws.