Kid goes home with a sign stapled to his shirt - teacher is transferred and father is furious

[SAFETY FIRST]

19 hours ago, webfact said:

stapled the A4 sheet on the child's shirt

Hey, now that's thinking outside the box. 

 

I love it. 

 

 

[SAFETY FIRST]

19 hours ago, webfact said:

Phetchabun Kindegergarten in the north east

I've been driving to Phetchabun for over 20 years, it's not north east, I'd say the centre. 

 

[Mac Mickmanus]

Appalling behaviour when I think about it 

Imagine if you were in a restaurant and a woman waitress came to take your order and you stapled your order  to her shirt and told her to walk and see the chef

[Bobbie Davies]

Ah the good ol’ days. You know what? As a kid I actually did have teachers that pinned notes to our shirts or coats. Not big old signposts, but it did happen and no one cared. That said I think three things leap out at me.
First, was the embarrassment issue. In Thailand, as everyone knows, big no no, but it was a parental face save not for the kid.The article does mention his (the parents) embarrassment. Makes no mention at all of any embarrassment on the part of the child. Just that other kids were looking. No mention of crying or what have you. And if the parent was making a scene, I’ll just bet they were staring. All the 6 year olds I know couldn’t care less if there was a note attached. In fact they might be thinking of it as a game depending on how the teacher presented it. Not like the dunce hats we had to sit in the corner with as children, and yes it happened. So did corporal punishment if some of you don’t remember. And sometimes mandatory haircuts. This all in the US.

Second was the very noticeable fact that the teacher was not fired. Her transfer to another class was not necessarily a punishment but to get her out of the line of fire. She may have heaved a sigh of relief actually having to not teach English. You’ll also notice that the name of the Superintendent was mentioned, but not that of the teacher and the Superintendent made statements, not the teacher.

Lastly, we cannot put Western non-conformist constructs on this issue. The kid showing up in the wrong clothing could be a big issue. Yes, while some schools do not necessarily strictly enforce uniformity, especially those dealing with international children, many do. Uniforms are required from kindergarten through the University years. If you have ever looked at professionals, teachers included. They tend to wear very similar outfits as their peers. Thailand has a tradition, for instance of certain shirt colors on certain days. Yellow Mondays ring a bell? Or the civil dress uniform for Thai teachers on Mondays in government schools? They start at the start with conformity. We do not even know if the teacher was present at the time. Many teachers especially in like MEP work their 4 hours and are gone. Also laziness is not the only reason a teacher may not deal with a message in person. Line is the most prevalent method of reaching parents and there is an implication that they were not even looking at the messages, let alone answering. Also we do know the teacher was a woman, she may not have been comfortable “confronting” a parent.

[StayinThailand2much]

22 hours ago, daveAustin said:

Wow, why not write it on their forehead!

Don't give them ideas. What happens if the kids accidentally go to the wrong classroom? Will they get P.1/2 tatooed on their forehead?

[IgboChief]

2 hours ago, Bobbie Davies said:

As a kid I actually did have teachers that pinned notes to our shirts or coats. Not big old signposts, but it did happen and no one cared.

I feel sorry for your that your dad did not have the guts or interest to stand up for you. Mine always did and so I do for my daughter. Seems to be a bit of an issue with social development.

 

2 hours ago, Bobbie Davies said:

Makes no mention at all of any embarrassment on the part of the child. Just that other kids were looking. No mention of crying or what have you.

If you think, that this incident did not carve a long lasting impression then you must seriously lack a sense of fairness and just -- maybe linked to your own scars (see above).

 

2 hours ago, Bobbie Davies said:

Not like the dunce hats we had to sit in the corner with as children, and yes it happened. So did corporal punishment if some of you don’t remember. And sometimes mandatory haircuts. This all in the US.

I am lost of what you try to say here: When bad things happened in the woods 50 years ago, we consider them ok? Why not go back to a good old flaying? I mean, THAT would teach them -- right?

 

2 hours ago, Bobbie Davies said:

The kid showing up in the wrong clothing could be a big issue.

Cancer is a big issue. War is a big issue.

A 6 year old in wrong clothes is NOTHING. Not in any culture or any country. And don't say "Thailand", there are actually excellent schools in Thailand and very educated people.

 

2 hours ago, Bobbie Davies said:

and there is an implication that they were not even looking at the messages, let alone answering.

Sure, do that to my kid and there would be definitely implications.

If there is any problem with a student, big or small, the CALL THE PARENTS and hold them accountable. If you touch a 6 year old (unless there is immediate danger to prevent), then you are unfit for any job, but especially as a teacher.

 

Ask yourself a simple question: Would they have dared doing the same on a 16 year old student (not too wimpy)? I guess not and this demonstrates all what went wrong here: its pure bullying and abuse of power.

[IgboChief]

Btw, my daughter quite often showed up in the wrong dress or on public holidays etc. -- simply because we did not understand their tradition (and honestly did not care at all).

 

If my daughter got notice less than 48h about a special dress requirement, I told her to ignore and to explain it exactly in that way and to request to speak to me in case of any problems. She learned more from that about life than from all that costume drama together.

 

Children main gather knowledge in school -- but experience from their parents.

 

 

[SAFETY FIRST]

13 minutes ago, IgboChief said:

Btw, my daughter quite often showed up in the wrong dress or on public holidays etc. -- simply because we did not understand their tradition (and honestly did not care at all) 

I reckon the parents of this young child had the same pitiful, poor attitude. 

 

Probably why the teacher went to this extreme attempt to notify the parents.

 

[IgboChief]

5 minutes ago, SAFETY FIRST said:

pathetic, poor attitude

You are free to judge my attitude.

However you miss completely the point again: If there is a problem with a 6 year old, then hold the parents accountable. If you can't stand the non-compliance, then dismiss the family from that school.

 

But never ever touch a 6 year old.

[Bobbie Davies]

Hmm. I guess I was saying that this kind of stuff is not unique and should not be a huge surprise. And that the concern may not be the welfare of the child in the article but the saving of face for the parent. Naturally we would not do that today, I can’t think of a Westerner who would. But I do believe, not to minimize what actually happened, that it hardly rates as major abuse or rape. You can’t throw away a teachers entire career for a note pinned to a shirt, once. The reason I may sound unsympathetic to the child is not that I am uncaring, simply that there is no mention whatsoever of any reaction that the child may have had to this. Yes we would sue till Jesus cried for mercy if it happened to our kids. Yes, we can project our own assumptions on him and say, “Oh poor baby he may be mentally scarred for life”, but is that real or simply a projection of our own biases. Yes for us Westerners, Europeans, etc… it is a issue of child welfare. Honestly, the kid could have been skipping up to daddy and proudly showing his note, “look what I got pa, a note for you”, and the dad saw everyone looking and felt his reputation took a hit.  I’m not making a moral judgement on the importance or lack of importance that Thais place on conformity, it is however a fact. As is saving face. Is what the teacher did actually against the law? In a Western country it may be depending on whether it can be seen as abuse (depending on definitions of abuse) or not. Yes, Thailand is in the middle of an evolutionary change in education and yes Thailand has some great teachers, this is undeniable, there will be some hiccups though. And some schools are more advanced than others in their instruction methods and styles. But it is not one hundred percent, and given Thailand, it may never be. No I am not bitter or uncaring, you know, I was not the only one with notes pinned it was generally done with bunches of kids. Please phones, we didn’t have em, lived in the country and didn’t even have a tv till I was 12.  I never got the dunce hat, and my brother is the only one in the family that got the paddle at school. Yes my father did defend us, to the hilt, they just did not have a problem with the notes. I also certainly understand the nonconformity issue. I desperately wanted to belong at that age. And of course, we should not go back to shaming children. But that is another of my points, this was not A deliberate shaming of the child, but an attempt to communicate with the parents wrongheaded as it seems to have been.

[Bobbie Davies]

Whoa Nelly about the never ever touch a 6 year old. That is pure projection and bias. I touch and play with my friends, neighbors, and fiancés family kids all the time. I have also, as a person and a teacher, helped kids straighten their cloths, brush their hair and teeth, helped them form letters, cleaned them up when they were sick, hugged them when they were hurt or crying, etc… Touch is a necessary part of dealing with children. There is nothing improper or wrong about a friend, family member, or teacher coming into physical contact with a child for a variety of reasons.

[IgboChief]

7 minutes ago, Bobbie Davies said:

never ever touch a 6 year old

Which clearly was related to Violence, not to Love or social interaction. We must come from very different background if there is a misunderstanding here,.

[IgboChief]

28 minutes ago, Bobbie Davies said:

You can’t throw away a teachers entire career for a note pinned to a shirt, once.

Well, I can and I am glad I can -- because that kind of "teacher" should never have entered a school, not even as a janitor.

 

Just to put things in comparison: At our present school in Chiang Mai a teacher lost his job (with compensation) about un-proven allegations from 20 years ago! Which is the extreme on the other end and not a good example at all. I just want to prove what common sense about that topic yields.

 

32 minutes ago, Bobbie Davies said:

Naturally we would not do that today, I can’t think of a Westerner who would.

I agree on that one and leave it like that.

[Bobbie Davies]

You put it in context of a note being pinned on a shirt. That is not violence. So how would I assume you are talking violence? And the idea that a 6 year old does not care or that clothing is not important in any country of the world. Dear you must have grown up in a different world than anyone else on this planet because that is simply untrue. YOU may think it is unimportant, but that does not mean everyone around you has that same attitude. And you are aware of this as you yourself say you give your daughter an excuse to use if you don’t get 48 hours warning.

[IgboChief]

34 minutes ago, Bobbie Davies said:

Yes my father did defend us, to the hilt, they just did not have a problem with the notes. I also certainly understand the nonconformity issue. I desperately wanted to belong at that age. And of course, we should not go back to shaming children.

Good on your dad then, I also understand that things happened at a different time -- and they just did not know much better then (alas it must have been 50 years ago or so).

 

I agree, we should not glorify those times and don't justify what we wrong then and still is today.

[jacko45k]

1 hour ago, IgboChief said:

I feel sorry for your that your dad did not have the guts or interest to stand up for you. Mine always did and so I do for my daughter. Seems to be a bit of an issue with social development.

 

If you think, that this incident did not carve a long lasting impression then you must seriously lack a sense of fairness and just -- maybe linked to your own scars (see above).

 

I am lost of what you try to say here: When bad things happened in the woods 50 years ago, we consider them ok? Why not go back to a good old flaying? I mean, THAT would teach them -- right?

 

Cancer is a big issue. War is a big issue.

A 6 year old in wrong clothes is NOTHING. Not in any culture or any country. And don't say "Thailand", there are actually excellent schools in Thailand and very educated people.

 

Sure, do that to my kid and there would be definitely implications.

If there is any problem with a student, big or small, the CALL THE PARENTS and hold them accountable. If you touch a 6 year old (unless there is immediate danger to prevent), then you are unfit for any job, but especially as a teacher.

 

Ask yourself a simple question: Would they have dared doing the same on a 16 year old student (not too wimpy)? I guess not and this demonstrates all what went wrong here: its pure bullying and abuse of power.

Jeez, they are a delicate lot where you come from! 

Different times...Thailand is living in old ones.

[IgboChief]

1 minute ago, Bobbie Davies said:

That is not violence.

I have to oppose that passionately: in my book violence is anything and everything, which hurts you --e specially when its conducted from a position of overwhelming strength and power.

 

A 16 year old, strong boy would have stood that and it would never have happened that way. And thus, when its done to a 6 years old, its violence and abuse (although non physical). Simple like that.

 

Question: If I come at you and staple you, how would you react? a) you just take it and smile or b) you punch me straight into the face (lets assume I was not taller/bigger/younger/stronger).

 

I bet 1000 bucks, it would be b) answer. Now, ask yourself why no smile and take it, when it was no violence at all.

[IgboChief]

42 minutes ago, Bobbie Davies said:

Is what the teacher did actually against the law?

Yes, it actually is. Read the law, it is surprisingly strong , clear and modern. (Just bad enforcement as so often.)

Quote

Thai Law against corporal punishment in schools
Corporal punishment is unlawful in all schools under the Ministry of Education
Regulation on Student Punishment (2005) and the National Committee on Child
Protection Regulation on Working Procedures of Child Protection Officers Involved
in Promoting Behaviour of Students (2005), pursuant to article 65 of the Child
Protection Act.
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1, This applies to ALL schools in Thailand with NO exceptions be they public
or private institutions! If a school tells you different then they are wrong
and you should be wary of schools who are ignorant of the law.
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2. There is no such thing as a parental opt out. Individuals cannot "opt
out" of the law of the land. Any teacher who hits a child with parental
permission is STILL breaking the law.
ไม(มการเล5อกปฏบ*ตจากผ7%ปกครอง ไม(มบ$คคลใดถ7ก "เล5อกปฏบ*ต"
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3. That parents of children who are hit can demand financial compensation
from the school. (nothing like money to make parents become more active).
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4. The new Women`s and Child protection Unit of the Royal Thai police what to
catch and punish teachers who hit kids (they are behind the website)
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5. Remember a teacher who hits a child has broken the law and you are
entitled to protection from people who commit a crime.
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และค$ณมสทธ:ได%ร*บการปกป;องให%พ%นจากบ$คคลทก9าล*งก(ออาชญากรรม
6. You should NOT respect people who break the law.
ค$ณ*ไม(ควร*เคารพบ$คคลทท9าผดกฎหมาย
7. You should report all events of teachers hitting kids to your local
police.
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8. The Thai Ministry of Education recommends that children who have been hit
by a teacher to report the matter. See the MOE website below (it is in
Thai).
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ด%านล(างน1 (เปนภาษาไทย)
9. Corporal punishment is illegal in Thailand. Any teacher who hits a child
is breaking the law. If you break the law you are committing a crime. If you
commit a crime you are a *criminal*!
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[Bobbie Davies]

I don’t glorify them. But we are talking Western schools and Western education systems. You simply cannot make a direct comparison of the mentalities. That is one of the main reasons for schools in any country, to socialize and integrate children into THEIR society. You have a Western free thinker mentality, I do as well. But It seems there is a small difference between our viewpoints, I do not think my way is the only way. Different education systems have to be adjusted to meet the needs of their society, not ours. We and our children are guests in Thailand no matter how long we are here (assuming you do not go the citizenship route) and not the rulers. Remember Thailand was never part of the Imperial expansion efforts. We cannot claim our personal mentality is better for them, that is pure imperialistic thought. They are not savages being enlightened by our godlike ways. Many countries allow corporal punishment in their schools from standing against the wall in a squat, to full on pull the pants down spanking. And the accused action that teacher did 20 years ago was actually illegal I assume? 

[IgboChief]

3 minutes ago, Bobbie Davies said:

We and our children are guests in Thailand no matter how long we are here (assuming you do not go the citizenship route) and not the rulers.

My daughter is Thai citizen with a Thai passport. She is not guest to anyone, but has full rights.

 

3 minutes ago, Bobbie Davies said:

Many countries allow corporal punishment in their schools from standing against the wall in a squat,

But Thailand does not, its illegal. Thailand is not as backward as you paint it. My daughter attends an excellent school in Chiang Mai with most revered teachers.

 

Lookup my name, I do know real savage countries, where we burn thieves in tires on the road. Trust me, nobody would let a teacher strike his kids there. We would solve this matter and teachers know that.

 

My point is: Thailand knows better!

[Bobbie Davies]

I wouldn’t take it. But I am a Westerner. And the 16 year old you talk about would probably take it in Thailand. Some individuals might not, but many, many would. Have you ever seen the teacher welcoming ceremony in the schools in Thailand? The child goes up on a stand and scoots on their knees to the seated teachers and gives them a wreath at which time the teacher smiles at them and places both hands on their head. You would see that as groveling, they see it as a sign of respect. The same respect that is they will have to deal with their entire life. Are you aware that the kings wives and concubines are required to approach their husband on their knees? Do you know that below the king there is no one of higher status than monks and that you should never have your head higher? Or that the “wai” has several degrees based on the status of the person you are talking to? Do you know that every morning all the children stand at attention and do the Thai and Kings anthem? They are being taught respect and obedience to status symbols. Yeah the 16 year old would probably take it. On the violence we simply will have to agree to disagree. Again, we have no statements or evidence to assume that the child was traumatized only a projection that it might cause them to be traumatized. Honestly, the notes from when I was a kid did not traumatize me.

[IgboChief]

3 minutes ago, Bobbie Davies said:

Or that the “wai” has several degrees based on the status of the person you are talking to?

Sure I do, and my wai is always below the heart, except for people who actually deserve it from my heart.

[Bobbie Davies]

No, no I am not saying your daughter doesn’t go to a good school. I’m sure she does. Like I said some schools are better than others from a Western viewpoint. Out of curiosity, does she go to a government school, a international school, private school, what?

[Bobbie Davies]

And that is a big difference between you and Thai people. The wai is always necessary at the proper point regardless of their personal opinion. And most times it is from their heart even if they hate the person to the bone,

[IgboChief]

1 minute ago, Bobbie Davies said:

No, no I am not saying your daughter doesn’t go to a good school. I’m sure she does. Like I said some schools are better than others from a Western viewpoint. Out of curiosity, does she go to a government school, a international school, private school, what?

Primary school was a private school in Udon, all Thai Students except 3 expat kids. Despite ignoring their "rules" they still featured my daughter on all of their advertisements and wanted to hire me as a teacher. Never had any bad experience there, except one time a younger teacher stroke my daughter, I sorted it out and never anything happened again as long as my daughter was there.

 

Now it is an international school, 60% Thai Children.

 

 

[Gandtee]

It amazes me that today, everyone is expected to have a mobile phone and it's taken for granted that Line or what other hitech communications are at everyones hand. There must be many children who are looked after by family members who have never had access to this. It's a feeble excuse that 'parents won't see a handwritten note and the teacher didn't want the pupil to be embarrassed by not wearing the 'proper' attire?" I suppose wearing a sign on your chest doesn't constitute an embarrassment? 

[Bobbie Davies]

And I am not painting Thailand as backward. That is colonial thought. They are different only. Judging their goodness or badness forwardness or backwardness on Failure to meet some artificially created Western standard or goal point standard is would be pure hubris on our part.

[Neeranam]

On 7/27/2022 at 9:30 AM, daveAustin said:

Wow, why not write it on their forehead! Will they buy a new shirt? Unbelievable how some of these local teachers carry on... cutting kids' hair off etc. Lucky they didn't mess with the wrong mf's son and get a nice slap for their efforts.

Woke alert!

Not as bad as the teachers at my school in the UK. I was physically beaten in front of the class a few times. 

This is a top school where Lord Byron studied. 

My parents would never go to the school and complain, nor would I want them.

[Bobbie Davies]

Ouch! I am so sorry that happened to your daughter. I would be really sensitive after that too. I would set freak.

[Neeranam]

2 minutes ago, Gandtee said:

There must be many children who are looked after by family members who have never had access to this.

NO, this is 2022.