Thai Person Without Thai Citizenship

[Sup3rfarang]

I don't know if this is the correct forum.  Please move if needed.

 

I was on Beach Road when I observed an old thin Thai woman crossing the road while pushing a little trolley with her belongings in it.  I decided I wanted to give her some money.  She headed down a soi and I followed.  And I found that, halfway down the soi, she was homeless and living in front of an abandoned shop.  So I gave her a donation.  To my surprise, she thanked me and asked my name in perfect English.

 

Her name is Penny and she was very nice to talk to.  She was married for a long time to a man from Denmark and lived there with him.  And she obtained Danish citizenship.  After her husband died she returned to Thailand.  But there is something wrong with her Thai citizenship status.  And this means she is ineligible for Thai medical benefits.  She seems to think that she needs to go to the Danish embassy and they can help her clear things up.

 

I am wondering if the experts in this forum could help me to help her with her Thai citizenship problem.  I know that the information I've provided is not much to go on.  So I want to go back and ask her more questions.  But I don't know what to ask, exactly.  Please give me a list of questions that you would ask her about her situation and I will carry them to her.  Thanks!

[eisfeld]

She might have given up her Thai citizenship when obtaining the Danish one. She should be able to get her Thai citizenship back (nowerdays she would not even be able to renounce her Thai citizenship). There might be a bit of a situation then with overstay but I'm sure it can be sorted out. I think the first stop is the local provincial administration office (who issues ID cards) with her birth certificate and other forms of ID she had from before.

 

But you would need to ask her for details because everything else on here is just speculation.

[Sup3rfarang]

Thank you eisfeld!

So questions to ask her:

1. Did she renounce her Thai Citizenship?  If so, when and where?
2. Does she have a copy of her birth certificate?  If not, where in Thailand was she born?
3. Does she have other forms of ID?

Does anyone have more questions/ideas?

[soi3eddie]

She should still have a Thai ID card. If not she can and should get one. That will at least get her Thai health care although it may not get her social security payment unless she has contributed. This is my understanding.

[Tropposurfer]

Good on ya for helping her. Pay it forward mate ????

[Thingamabob]

Very well done for trying  to help. I guess the most important question to ask her is whether not she has, or can obtain, her Thai birth certificate. 

Best of luck.

[Kenny202]

Without being too negative there is probably a good chance she is an illegal from Laos or Cambodia, not to say she doesn't deserve help

[Sup3rfarang]

1 hour ago, Kenny202 said:

Without being too negative there is probably a good chance she is an illegal from Laos or Cambodia, not to say she doesn't deserve help

Fair point there.  I will add to my questions list.  If something like this is the case then I could end up wasting a lot of time and energy.  Thanks for that.

[kokesaat]

Assuming she married and went to Denmark on a foreign passport, she should have some documentation.....old ID, old Thai passport, birth certificate, etc.  If all else fails, she should return to the city/village where she was born and try to find a long lost relative/neighbor who can vouch for them.  My wife went without a Thai ID card for about 20 years......she was fortunate to find an old friend of hers working in the local amphur office.  He signed a few forms and she got her ID back.

Good luck.

[jonnit]

My wife was out of Thailand and in the US for almost 40 years before returning to Thailand. She no longer had her old Thai ID, or passport both of which had been stolen with her purse several years prior. She did have some school attendance records and her mothers Thai ID that she had kept after her mothers death, plus the police report of the theft. We were in xxxxxxxxxxx and were told she needed to go to Roi Et where she had attended school and they could help. We went there and were told to go to the school and find records/teachers, etc., who could help. She found one retired teacher who remember her and got a statement from him. We then went and had it authenticated. We were then sent to Bangkok to find her records which were located after much digging in the deceased file. She had been put in that file due to the time she was absent. We then took her old paperwork and went back to xxxxxxxxxxxx to get her ID. Still not possible. So, we had to bring in 2 persons as witnesses who remembered her. She had an older sister in the area and an old lady from Ubon who remembered training her in her hair salon. So we returned another day with the witnesses and the Puyai Ban. We were still there from opening until sometime after lunch. It seemed all was going to be unsuccessful until the wife made a donation to their whatever fund. I'm not saying that helped, but 30 minutes later she had her ID. She then wanted to get her passport, but was met with the same story of how difficult that would be. She was not happy about that, so she said forget about it. I don't know the procedure for getting a Thai passport, but that could have been true. She still travels on her US passport even though I've tried to convince her to at least try again to get a passport. My wife was born during WWII, so finding her records may have been more difficult than it may be for this lady.

[DrJoy]

18 hours ago, Sup3rfarang said:

But there is something wrong with her Thai citizenship status.

If she renounced her Thai citizenship, there is no way to get it back.

Thai citizenship has to be applied afresh.

 

A birth certificate will have no bearing then

[eisfeld]

3 hours ago, DrJoy said:

If she renounced her Thai citizenship, there is no way to get it back.

Thai citizenship has to be applied afresh.

 

A birth certificate will have no bearing then

"getting citizenship back" vs "apply afresh".... that's just semantics. What matters is she needs to become Thai again.

 

A birth certificate is a very important document when trying to obtain Thai citizenship because people born to Thai parents have a birthright to Thai citizenship and the birth certificate will show the parents are Thai.

[Sup3rfarang]

Thank you everyone for the great info above.  Jonnit, your experience is very helpful indeed.

 

So last night I went back to see her at her small camp in front of the shop and get more details.

 

Her husband was well off and tried to provide for her future before he died.  But apparently his family were able to divert the funds and leave her living on a small allowance doled out to her monthly on a credit card.  She felt betrayed, all alone, and that she couldn't trust anyone over there so she decided she wanted to "go home" to Thailand and did so.  Over the years she made multiple attempts to re-establish her Thai credentials in her home province in Lop Buri and, later, here in Jomtien.  But the bureaucrats weren't very helpful.  She tried the process of getting her family to vouch for her to no avail and now, over the years, her parents have died.  And she lost contact with her brother who moved away.  I suspect the reason why some of the efforts in Lop Buri failed is maybe the right "donations" weren't applied?

 

Before she would rent a room and eat with the funds from the credit card but, after many years, the card has stopped working.  Now she is homeless and stateless.  She is getting older and needs medical care.  She is in a precarious position living near the beach.  As the tourists are coming back the city wants to clean up the area and clear out the homeless.  At one point the city tried to place her in an elder care facility.  I can testify that this lady is intelligent and has all her faculties.  She is fluent in English, obviously Thai, and probably Danish as well.  And she is physically strong enough, though thin, to walk all over the beach area daily.  Despite being homeless she keeps herself clean and fresh and her living area is well maintained.  She is in her sixties and not ready for the old folks home.

 

Earlier I didn't understand why she wanted to talk to the Danish embassy to solve a Thai bureaucracy problem but now I do.  Her Danish passport is expired and so not acceptable as identification when talking to the Thai government.  Jomtien has told her she needs this first before they can work with her.

 

So I think the first step in all this is I will take her on a day trip to the Danish embassy in Bangkok to get her Danish passport renewed.  I have sent an email to the Danish embassy requesting their procedures/requirements and an appointment.

 

Is there anyone with experience with such a quest that can give pointers on how I should prepare and what to do while at the Danish embassy?  This is a trek and I don't want to have to make multiple trips over simple mistakes.

[unblocktheplanet]

On 8/4/2022 at 10:47 AM, Kenny202 said:

Without being too negative there is probably a good chance she is an illegal from Laos or Cambodia, not to say she doesn't deserve help

Unlikely with the perfect English. Can she speak Danish (notoriously difficult but a requirement for Danish residency & citizenship)?

 

BTW, this is the best feel-good story here on TV in a very long time. I hope we're here because we care.

[FriendlyFarang]

23 hours ago, Sup3rfarang said:

Now she is homeless and stateless.

She isn't stateless, sounds like she is at least a Danish citizen.

Could you clarify if she still has Thai citizenship, or if she renounced it when she applied for Danish citizenship?

[Neeranam]

Good chance  she just lost her Thai ID.

How long has a 60 year old Thai woman been living in Pattaya?

Why on Earth would she want to move there? Possibly to rip off naive farang. 

My advice, let the Thai people find out if she is legit and help her. 

[perconrad]

On 8/5/2022 at 10:33 AM, Sup3rfarang said:

Thank you everyone for the great info above.  Jonnit, your experience is very helpful indeed.

 

So last night I went back to see her at her small camp in front of the shop and get more details.

 

Her husband was well off and tried to provide for her future before he died.  But apparently his family were able to divert the funds and leave her living on a small allowance doled out to her monthly on a credit card.  She felt betrayed, all alone, and that she couldn't trust anyone over there so she decided she wanted to "go home" to Thailand and did so.  Over the years she made multiple attempts to re-establish her Thai credentials in her home province in Lop Buri and, later, here in Jomtien.  But the bureaucrats weren't very helpful.  She tried the process of getting her family to vouch for her to no avail and now, over the years, her parents have died.  And she lost contact with her brother who moved away.  I suspect the reason why some of the efforts in Lop Buri failed is maybe the right "donations" weren't applied?

 

Before she would rent a room and eat with the funds from the credit card but, after many years, the card has stopped working.  Now she is homeless and stateless.  She is getting older and needs medical care.  She is in a precarious position living near the beach.  As the tourists are coming back the city wants to clean up the area and clear out the homeless.  At one point the city tried to place her in an elder care facility.  I can testify that this lady is intelligent and has all her faculties.  She is fluent in English, obviously Thai, and probably Danish as well.  And she is physically strong enough, though thin, to walk all over the beach area daily.  Despite being homeless she keeps herself clean and fresh and her living area is well maintained.  She is in her sixties and not ready for the old folks home.

 

Earlier I didn't understand why she wanted to talk to the Danish embassy to solve a Thai bureaucracy problem but now I do.  Her Danish passport is expired and so not acceptable as identification when talking to the Thai government.  Jomtien has told her she needs this first before they can work with her.

 

So I think the first step in all this is I will take her on a day trip to the Danish embassy in Bangkok to get her Danish passport renewed.  I have sent an email to the Danish embassy requesting their procedures/requirements and an appointment.

 

Is there anyone with experience with such a quest that can give pointers on how I should prepare and what to do while at the Danish embassy?  This is a trek and I don't want to have to make multiple trips over simple mistakes.

As a Danish citizen and dependent of how long time she have been living in Denmark and her age she may well be able to get the Danish old age pension. Dependent of the year she was born the age for starting is from 65 to 68.

She can phone the Danish Government pension department "Udbetaling Danmark" on phone +4570 12 80 61 and get more information by informing them of her Danish citizen number Cpr. Nr., the number is stated in her passport.

The max. Danish old age pension when living in Thailand is this year DKK 6.547 (THB 32.000)when you have lived in Denmark 40 years, if less years it will be reduced.

[Sup3rfarang]

Update: I've made an appointment for Penny for this Tuesday at the Denmark embassy for passport renewal.  I let her know and she will get her paperwork together Monday to prepare.  She showed me her expired passport and it expired in 2019.  So its not too old.  It should be a straightforward matter to renew it.

 

unblocktheplanet: I haven't asked her if she can speak Danish yet (I suspect she can at least speak some) but I plan to next time I see her.

 

FriendlyFarang and Neeranam: When I talk to her I try to not make it into an interrogation so I haven't pushed too hard on this.  I agree she most likely just lost her Thai ID and passport in Denmark and entered Thailand with her Danish passport.

 

perconrad:  Thank you so much for this info!  This could be quite valuable for her.  She's not quite 65 yet but we will still make the call to find out what she can expect at 65.

 

Also, in this most recent conversation with her I discovered that Penny buys candy and snacks and sells them to tourists on the beach all afternoon and evening.  This is how she has enough money to eat.  She walks many miles up and down the beach in the heat every day.  Previously, before Covid, she worked as a cook and barkeep at a bar on Soi Buakhao.

[Sup3rfarang]

I am happy to report our trip to the Denmark embassy was a success.  The embassy staff were very kind and helpful to us.  The paperwork was completed in about 20 minutes and Penny will receive her renewed Denmark passport in 2 to 3 weeks.  Once she has it Penny will decide if she will return to Denmark or resume the battle to get her Thai citizenship back.  But at least now she has options.  Back when Penny applied for Denmark citizenship Denmark did not allow dual citizenship.  As part of the process she had to surrender her Thai passport to the Denmark government which would have notified Thailand that she is renouncing.   Only a few years later Denmark passed a law allowing dual citizenship.

[rattlesnake]

I know a Thai woman who relinquished her Thai citizenship a long time ago in order to obtain a French one (I was shocked when I heard this, I didn't know it was even possible for something like that to happen). Now every time she goes on holiday to Thailand she has to make a visa and extend it just like any farang, which is ridiculous but that is the way it is. She is now old and wants to return to Thailand to live there but this is a major hurdle for her. She has told me it is the biggest mistake she ever made as her French ID card does not make her culturally French, she's still a foreigner there and rejected by her own country.

[kiwiaussie]

On 8/7/2022 at 2:32 PM, Sup3rfarang said:

Update: I've made an appointment for Penny for this Tuesday at the Denmark embassy for passport renewal.  I let her know and she will get her paperwork together Monday to prepare.  She showed me her expired passport and it expired in 2019.  So its not too old.  It should be a straightforward matter to renew it.

 

unblocktheplanet: I haven't asked her if she can speak Danish yet (I suspect she can at least speak some) but I plan to next time I see her.

 

FriendlyFarang and Neeranam: When I talk to her I try to not make it into an interrogation so I haven't pushed too hard on this.  I agree she most likely just lost her Thai ID and passport in Denmark and entered Thailand with her Danish passport.

 

perconrad:  Thank you so much for this info!  This could be quite valuable for her.  She's not quite 65 yet but we will still make the call to find out what she can expect at 65.

 

Also, in this most recent conversation with her I discovered that Penny buys candy and snacks and sells them to tourists on the beach all afternoon and evening.  This is how she has enough money to eat.  She walks many miles up and down the beach in the heat every day.  Previously, before Covid, she worked as a cook and barkeep at a bar on Soi Buakhao.

- Denmark for a long time didn't allow dual citizenship.

 

Its highly likely she would have had to relinquish her Thai citizenship before she got her Danish passport. She would have renounced it under section 13 of the (Thai) nationality act, and that renunciation would have been published in the royal gazette. 

 

http://web.krisdika.go.th/data/document/ext810/810050_0001.pdf

 

- It is very possible for her to resume her Thai nationality under section 23 of the same act. She will need to apply for this via the police special branch in Bangkok who should be able to give her the correct information on how to do it. There is a process, it will take time, but its entirely within her rights to do so.

 

- In the meantime, under immigration order 327/2557, section  2.23 states that "In the case of a person who used to have Thai nationality or whose parent is or was of Thai nationality visiting relatives or returning to his or her original homeland" they can apply for a special non-immigrant visa which will effectively allow her to stay here on her Danish passport while her Thai citizenship is reinstated.

 

There is a good article about that here: www.thaicitizenship.com/thai-ancestry-visas

 

- until her thai citizenship is reinstated however, it is likely she will remain outside the Thai social security safety net. 

 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by kiwiaussie