If, or When, I Die

[Robin]

Sparked by a discussion on this board, I have found something new to worry about.

 

.  

I am not getting any younger or fitter (now 78) and fully expect Khun wife to survive me, and I want her to be provided for.

We were legally married in UK, but not in Thailand.  We have been together for nearly 40 yrs.

I have made a will in UK, covering everything I own.:-

Property in UK,

Money in bank in UK and Singapore

Everything we own in Thailand is in wife's name ( land, house, car..)

I have on bank account at Kasikorn of my retirement visa, and another joint with wife.

Wife assures me that when I die, all in Thailand will go to her, and has been instructed as to how to inform my solicitor (executor) in UK

Can anyone with more knowledge of Thai legal system comment on this as I want everything to e as easy as possible for her when I go.

Wife has not made a will, as her mother told her it would be 'bad luck'  think about her death.

Wife and I agree that if she should pre-decease me, everything in Thailand except my bank account would go to her family, and they can sort it out between themselves.    I would not want to live on in the village, but would return to UK

We do not have any children but wife has niece she has brought up a daughter, and expects that she should inherit everything in Thailand.

To me, everything seems to be in place for easy procedures when either of us die.  Am I living in a fool's paradise it will not be as easy as I hope?

Wife and her family are typical country Thais with no knowledge of legal matters, as I suspect that many(most) Thais are

Being cynical, I am sure that wife's family fully expect to get everything we own in Thailand, and i am not going to try to contest this.

AFIK all our property, house. land, in Thailand is properly registered in wife's maiden name, as appears on her ID card and Thai passport.  She has ll the paper-work stowed away in our house.

I am not looking for a way to get possession of this property, I would probably just walk away after the funeral and leave i all to her family.

[Denim]

One thing to consider is inheritance tax in the UK. It can take a big chunk out of anything you leave your wife so it might be worth looking into now , while you can , to see if there are any measures you can take to soften the blow.

 

PS , congratulations on 40 years of marriage. Glad you both found your soul mates.

 

 

Edited August 10, 2022 by Denim

[stoner]

i can't say i would be as happy with the arrangements as you are. 

 

i'm 15 years in and fully expect my wife to leave me everything of the nothing that she owns ????

 

[Upnotover]

49 minutes ago, Denim said:

One thing to consider is inheritance tax in the UK. It can take a big chunk out of anything you leave your wife so it might be worth looking into now , while you can , to see if there are any measures you can take to soften the blow.

 

PS , congratulations on 40 years of marriage. Glad you both found your soul mates.

 

 

There is no inheritance tax to pay on anything left to a spouse, unless different rules apply to a foreign spouse, albeit one married in the UK.

[Tropicalevo]

1 hour ago, Robin said:

Wife assures me that when I die, all in Thailand will go to her,

First of all, well done on thinking ahead. Many do not.

 

I do not believe that the statement above is true.

When my wife died (without a will - we were in the process of writing one) I had to go to court to claim her possessions.

In law, all of her goods were to be shared between me, her parents and siblings. I had to obtain written statements from them all stating that they did not want anything.

Once I presented those documents in court, I was given possession.

Your parents (?) siblings and any children would have to do the same presumably.

Better to write a will in Thailand. Depending on where you live, English may be OK.

 

I am not a legal expert but that is what happened in my scenario.

[1FinickyOne]

This subject is haunting me lately too... My trusted lawyer here is gone - I wonder if the Will is subject to other factors including the honesty of lawyers here. 

 

We have raised a niece and in the absence of us both, I wonder if her not too bright mother will come after her for funds... which could put my niece in a very uncomfortable spot. She would likely yield. 

 

One way I have moved forward is by putting everything I own here in my wife's name... but surely she has no will... and I think might not like the suggestion... very complicated and the family, a great family, has never really had to face something like this??? 

[Tuvoc]

8 hours ago, Robin said:

Wife has not made a will, as her mother told her it would be 'bad luck'  think about her death.

Yeah, my wife won't make one either for that reason !  Whilst in the normal course of events I would die well before her, you never know what is going to happen in life. If she was to die before me I imagine the financial stuff would be a nightmare. As was mentioned, above the spouse does not get everything  here - it is shared between parents, siblings and the spouse, roughly speaking.

[Headgame]

Also 78 and was in a long term relationship with my Thai partner. Even if married it is important to have a Thai will dealing specifically with your Thai assets and a will in your home country specifically with those assets. My lady died suddenly of a massive heart attack 9 months ago. My will states if that were to happen my Thai assets go to my non Thai children. BTW, she too did not want a will. Who knows why. Go the extra step and make sure you clearly state your intentions in two wills.

[Thujone]

IF you die!?!

Optimist of the Year award goes to Robin.

[Excel]

28 minutes ago, Headgame said:

Also 78 and was in a long term relationship with my Thai partner. Even if married it is important to have a Thai will dealing specifically with your Thai assets and a will in your home country specifically with those assets. My lady died suddenly of a massive heart attack 9 months ago. My will states if that were to happen my Thai assets go to my non Thai children. BTW, she too did not want a will. Who knows why. Go the extra step and make sure you clearly state your intentions in two wills.

But the OP states he has no Thai assets as they are already in his wife's name. He only has a Kbank account in his name

[LukKrueng]

As you don't want to inherit any of your possessions in Thailand, lack of your wife's will shouldn't bother you. According to Thai law it all goes to her natural heirs (parents, children, siblings, spouse). If you never registered your marriage in Thailand and you don't contest the distribution of her assets, all will go to her family, but without a will the niece won't get any of it. She can instruct her relatives to give whatever she wants to the niece, but without a will it will be up to them.

[Tropposurfer]

I have a not to dissimilar scenario to yours mate.

I have assets and wills in Australia (British and Australian laws hold much commonality) and Thailand and had them drafted to comply with and not conflict with either nations laws around wills, assets and beneficiaries.

Maybe go to the well known American lawyer here; Benjamin at Integrity Legal in Khrong Thep and ask his advice. Wont cost you much for an initial consult, then you can go from there.

If you want to be doubly sure maybe have Benjamin coordinate with a lawyer you know in the Old Dart to be certain of conformance with British Law, Benjamin being an American and most familiar with US law and Thai law. He did with my stuff.

Paying for such advice and drafting of documents is cheap (when you think of the amount of assets being left, the emotional anguish and possible financial problems that can come to those you love from not leaving a cohesive will when you die). 

I'd go get married - civil in Thailand asap, make up a will for your wife and yourself, then dovetail connect (non-legal speak) your UK will to coordinate and confirm the Thai one/s.

This won't take too long and be sound if Benjamin has anything to do with it.

 

[vinci]

wife and i are still in our middle ages, but i have thought about this for quite sometime, just assume she go first, with a will i shall get everything, but one thing i'm still not sure of, we own a few property plus the one we currently living on, the house would directly go to me but what about the land if foreigner can't own land.

[dlclark97]

A friend on mine from the USA died last month without a will.  His legally married wife in Thailand and USA is having a very difficult time getting any of the money in his accounts.  Government has asked for copies of his parents death certificates (a request previously unheard of).  Apparently according to legal advice his father if still alive, would be first in line to inherit.  Next would be any of his male children and finally the wife.  Not right but appears that's the way it is done here.

[crazykopite]

There is no inheritance tax to pay in the U.K. if your wife is still alive after your passing. I can’t say anything with regards to Thailand accept make out a Thai will and lodge it with your local amphur i

[crazykopite]

23 minutes ago, vinci said:

wife and i are still in our middle ages, but i have thought about this for quite sometime, just assume she go first, with a will i shall get everything, but one thing i'm still not sure of, we own a few property plus the one we currently living on, the house would directly go to me but what about the land if foreigner can't own land.

I think they give you a certain amount of time to sell the property a friend of mine Thai wife passed a number of years ago the land and property were in her name but he had a legally binding document giving him a 30 year lease he still has the property I think there are 14 years left of the lease and once expired will be returned to her family she had two sons by a previous marriage but they havnt given him any grief over it  

[terryq]

Under Thai law if someone dies intestate then the surviving spouse does not automatically inherit everything.

 

The surviving spouse, as a statutory heir, would automatically receive 50% of the estate. The other 50% would then be shared by the six classes of statutory heir in descending order.

 

The first of these would be children who would share the other 50% equally.

 

If no children then the parents of the deceased would share the 50%. If no surviving parents then brothers and sisters and so on down the list.

 

For a full explanation

https://www.thailandlaw.org/intestate-succession-in-thailand.html

 

 

[lopburi3]

A very good link with complete information.  Long but worth the read.

https://www.samuiforsale.com/law-texts/thailand-inheritance-laws.html

[Lacessit]

I would suggest the OP could make his situation ironclad by having a Thai and UK will. The bank account in his name in Thailand might still be in dispute, as he is not married there. I would not want to rely on the impartiality of a Thai bureaucrat, when it is a fairly significant sum.

 

I have an Australian and a Thai will. My assets in Australia go to my son there, my assets in Thailand go to my Thai GF.

 

Nearly 40 years, well done. Although people get less than that for murder.

[lopburi3]

5 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

The bank account in his name in Thailand might still be in dispute, as he is not married there.

If he is legally married in UK he is married in Thailand.  You don't get the option to have more than one wife.

[hknn]

A swarm of relatives can claim a share of the inheritance as per Thai law if you don't prepare a will. There are 6 classes of statutory heirs in Thailand, besides a spouse. Children, grand children, parents, siblings, half-siblings, grandparents, uncles/aunts. Even if there are none on your side, the Thai court and your bank in Thailand are supposed to make a bureaucratic fuss before they transfer your possessions to your surviving wife - because they should have proof that no other claimants exist. An affidavit by your executor in the UK, even if he digs up birth and death certificates for your complete family tree, back to Lord Nelson, may not suffice. After all, you could have relatives in other countries. It could take years before they release the bank accounts to your wife. Of course, TIT: they may not bother to make a fuss if the potential relatives are foreigners. But I'd expect Thai courts and banks to not hand over your bank account without a heap of paperwork. 

Worse, the niece of your wife would probably get nothing without your wife's written will.

 

You should register your marriage in both countries. After you or she dies, the UK, SG and TH courts will insist that the survivor proves her/his claims as spouse before they release the bank accounts. The paperwork will be about the same, but it will be easier and less expensive to get a national marriage registration certificate while both spouses are alive.

 

The second step is easy: Under Thai law, you can make a so-called holographic testament, hand-written in English (section 1657 Civil and Commercial Code). Mention it it that at the time of writing, you don't have any surviving relatives that could be statutory heirs. Your sole heir shall be your wife. This should speed up the release of your bank account to your wife. Put this hand-written will somewhere safe, where your wife can find it, and she should be able to have it recognized by the Thai probate court after you kick the can down the road.

She should write her own handwritten will to make sure that her niece gets everything (or anything) after her death. Or else, a mob of her other relatives in classes 3 to 6 could claim to be statutory heirs. Does she have siblings or half-siblings? I'm not even sure that nieces belong to the lowest of the 6 classes of heirs. If not, the niece gets nothing without a will. If no statutory heirs exist after the death of your wife and she leaves no written will, either, the Thai government would pocket all her Thai assets. Her UK assets would go to her majesty's coffers, the SG bank account to the SG government.  

 

Safer would be a will according to section 1658 of the Civil and Commercial Code.  Have a lawyer write it in English and Thai (5 - 10k Baht) and file it at your local amphoe office in the presence of 2 witnesses. The witnesses must not be heirs. The lawyer can certainly provide the 2 witnesses, himself and 1 other.

Forms Of Wills under Thai Law | Family Law (samuiforsale.com)

There are also Word templates you can find by Googling, with the text in both English and Thai, so the lawyer and/or you only need to enter the names. No expensive translation is necessary for such a standard text. 

 

When you hire the lawyer, you may also consider to write a "physician's directive" or "living will".  

“Section 12: An individual is entitled to make a Living Will expressing that person’s intentions to refrain from receiving medical treatment for the purpose of extending the last phase of their life or for ending the suffering arising from the illness. 

Living Will in Thailand - Complete legal advice from professionals (isaanlawyers.com)

 

[hknn]

18 minutes ago, hknn said:

the 6 classes of heirs. If not, the niece gets nothing without a will.

As for the 6 classes of statutory heirs:

1. descendants;
2. parents;
3. brothers and sisters of full blood;
4. brothers and sisters of half blood;
5. grandparents;
6. uncles and aunts.

If any heirs exist in a higher class, the lower classes get nothing. Nieces do not belong to any class under Thai law. So she would get zilch unless your wife writes her own will.

Edited August 11, 2022 by hknn

[lopburi3]

2 hours ago, dlclark97 said:

Apparently according to legal advice his father if still alive, would be first in line to inherit.  Next would be any of his male children and finally the wife. 

Suspect that is a country far far away from USA where the laws are state specific - but in almost all cases spouse gets 50 or 30 percent off the top.

[Lacessit]

16 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

If he is legally married in UK he is married in Thailand.  You don't get the option to have more than one wife.

You are confident the Thai bureaucracy would recognize a marriage in another country? This is Thailand, remember?

What I am suggesting is to put any potential issue beyond doubt. IIRC, Thai probate takes about 6 months. Better if it is not longer due to some technicality.

 

[chilly07]

No mention of pension?

I have a will that names my younger brother as executor and I have asked him to sort this out for my wife. Everything else is in her name. 

[lopburi3]

10 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

You are confident the Thai bureaucracy would recognize a marriage in another country?

Yes - and he can not marry again in Thailand in any case - he is already married.

 

What they could do is change her name to his as there is no longer the old property ownership issue and that might speed things.

Edited August 11, 2022 by lopburi3

[Tuvoc]

2 hours ago, Tropposurfer said:

Maybe go to the well known American lawyer here; Benjamin at Integrity Legal in Khrong Thep and ask his advice. Wont cost you much for an initial consult, then you can go from there.

I got a quote from them, and in my particular case (but not necessarily for anyone else as it always depends on the circumstances)  it was over double the price of some other quotes from reputable lawyers. Certainly take advantage of free phone consultations. I got a will drawn up in Thai and English covering worldwide assets.  That is one option and seemed the cleanest to me.

[hknn]

9 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Thai bureaucracy would recognize a marriage

He should get a Thai and a British marriage registration certificate.

The probate court in TH will insist on seeing evidence of the marriage if they married in the UK. Conversely, UK and SG will insist on it if they married in TH.

This proof of marriage will require many of the same documents he and his wife had to provide for their original marriage document. It will be easier for him to obtain documents from Europe than for her. Birth certificates of both, current family register excerpt to show that the marriage has not been dissolved, passports, etc.

I married in Thailand and got a European marriage registration 6 or 8 years later.

 

[hknn]

In TH, wife and children would split the inheritance. If there are no children, the wife gets everything. Lower statutory heirs won't get anything because the wife is the highest statutory heir. But without a will, the widow would have to prove that her husband had no children in other countries.

 

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, lopburi3 said:

Yes - and he can not marry again in Thailand in any case - he is already married.

 

What they could do is change her name to his as there is no longer the old property ownership issue and that might speed things.

I don't know if I understand what you are saying, AFAIK there is nothing that impedes a couple from renewing their wedding vows in one or more than one country.

Be that as it may, how would an amphur in the backblocks of Issan know they were man and wife in the UK, if they chose to say nothing?