Wine has now become a real luxury in Thailand

[toofarnorth]

2 hours ago, Boomer6969 said:

I do, but it would be ridiculous to buy it to get drunk, I drink wine to enhance the dining experience, So one or two bottles week remains affordable. Otherwise I have given up on beer, it messes up my prostate, and I don't miss it anyway.

I don't miss my prostate either.

[ThailandRyan]

34 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

You grew up in the Napa Valley? I have news for you, Australians regard wines from that region as only fit for cardboard cartons. Thin and insipid.

 

I guess it depends on what one's palate gets trained for. A full-bodied Aussie Shiraz would probably overload your taste buds.

Shiraz's dominate my cellar, and I drink plenty of Australian wines, Chilean wines, and French wines.  My comment was directed at the fact that one needs to go and tour wineries and do some tastings in order to find a wine which is made local that meets their needs and tastes. My wine cellar has many different wineries from around the world which can be bought here.  What I find odd is that wines from the US are priced higher than a French Bordeaux here, and Australian wines run between 600 and 900 baht for the brands I purchase Like Peppercorn, or Zontes Footstep Chocolate Factory Shiraz whose 2017 bottling is among the top 4% of wines in the world. Anything from the Mclaren Vale in Australia is decent wine. Two Hands Lily Garden Shiraz is also decent.

Edited August 21, 2022 by ThailandRyan

[toofarnorth]

15 hours ago, Thailand said:

Peter Vella House White 1.5 litres around 520 baht presented in a nice plastic bag and served very cold more than acceptable for me.  The red is not too bad either.

 

All a matter of taste and that is mine. ????

 

 

Shared a bottle of Peter Vella smooth red a few days ago and I thought it rather splendid , 399B from Tesco Lotus'sss

[Excel]

7 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

Shiraz's dominate my cellar, and I drink plenty of Australian wines, Chilean wines, and French wines.  My comment was directed at the fact that one needs to go and tour wineries and do some tastings in order to find a wine which is made local that meets their needs and tastes. My wine cellar has many different wineries from around the world which can be bought here.  What I find odd is that wines from the US are priced higher than a French Bordeaux here, and Australian wines run between 600 and 900 baht for the brands I purchase Like Peppercorn, or Zontes Footstep Chocolate Factory Shiraz whose 2017 bottling is among the top 4% of wines in the world. Anything from the Mclaren Vale in Australia is decent wine. Two Hands Lily Garden Shiraz is also decent.

Just a technical clarification please.  To my knowledge no condo in Thailand has a cellar, so as you are discussing the contents of your wine cellar I assume you mean your house in the US ? Or do you have  temp/humidity controlled storage room for your wines in your condo which is technically not a wine cellar ?  A previous house of mine in BKK very many years ago  had one of those, fitted by a previous owner which frankly was a waste of time.

[sqwakvfr]

15 hours ago, Baron Samedi said:

When that happens, the technique is to pour sugar in the bottle and then shake it ????

 

555. Good one. 

[Walker88]

Given that there are a few folks here who do enjoy a good wine, there are a few major suppliers here who mostly sell to restaurants and hotels, but will sell to private customers if you buy sufficient quantity. They have excellent selections and---at least once clearing Customs---store the wine properly. Also, for folks living here, one can buy at a reasonable price a pretty good 'wine cellars' to hold wine at the proper temperature and humidity.

 

Buy enough wine, and one not only gets the wholesale price, but also may get a discount of up to 20% for cash purchases. As I stated in an earlier post, the prices for medium and higher quality wines are not much different from the US, especially for Italian wines, since importers under declare or pay 'a little tribute'.

 

The reason I wrote my first post in this thread is because I felt the article is wrong in that the duties Thailand imposes are less visible as one moves up the price point, owing to under declaration or tributes. Maybe European prices are better, but US prices for certain price points are no different than what I pay in Thailand, and since some readers here are from the US, that info may be of use. This is especially true of mid to higher priced Italian wines.

 

Everyone has his or her own price point and taste. While some argue that few can tell the difference between plonk and something special, that is not always the case. It's funny that wine tends to bring out two extremes, while beer does not. People who are really particular about beer never get scolded by those who say few people can tell the difference between cheap beer and, say, a Belgian Trappist brew, but when it comes to wine many get their panties in a twist if someone dares to enjoy a good Barolo or Brunello and can tell it from plonk. Folks are quick to criticize US beer (based on a long ago time when the choices were Bud, Miller and Schlitz vs today when the typical liquor store has 5000 different microbrews) and say their German or Czech or Belgian is vastly superior, but anyone who chooses a decent wine is criticized as overspending for something he cannot actually appreciate.

 

Drink enough wine and one can tell the difference and one gets accustomed to the good ones. One need not be a sommelier to tell good wine, just go through lots and lots of bottles. Maybe that's a curse and one is better off being pleased with plonk, but if folks can bark about their beer, why not wine?

Edited August 21, 2022 by Walker88

[SmartyMarty]

there is no such thing as a drinkable Thai wine.

[Excel]

22 minutes ago, toofarnorth said:

I don't miss my prostate either.

Well I'm not giving up mine if that is what it takes to think Thai wine is palatable ????

[ThailandRyan]

5 minutes ago, Excel said:

Just a technical clarification please.  To my knowledge no condo in Thailand has a cellar, so as you are discussing the contents of your wine cellar I assume you mean your house in the US ? Or do you have  temp/humidity controlled storage room for your wines in your condo which is technically not a wine cellar ?  A previous house of mine in BKK very many years ago  had one of those, fitted by a previous owner which frankly was a waste of time.

No i meant my personal refrigerated cellar of which I have two 48 bottle ones, one for the whites and Pinots, and the other for the reds. I had two others that I sold off. I really want to install a large one in my house in Hua Hin, in my study.  The refrigerated units works well.  In the US I have a house with a cellar in the basement which is temperature controlled, of course with living here my sister and her husband who live three houses down partake of the wines there and then restock.

[ThailandRyan]

10 minutes ago, SmartyMarty said:

there is no such thing as a drinkable Thai wine.

Your opinion, and we all have them, so agree to disagree.

[spidermike007]

I do not even think this information is close to being correct. If there was a 60% tax in wine, it would be reasonable here. I was told by reliable sources, that is is 360%. Wine prices here are downright stupid, for high quality wine. It is just one of the many, many sacrifices the goon squad needs to make, if there is any chance of attracting affluent tourists. 

 

When components of the intermediate inputs and the finished good are at different tariff rates, the effective rate of protection (Ep) is actually different than the advertised rate. This creates a non-transparent environment.

 

Table I                       Thai wine                            imports

1. A  CIF (per bottle) 6.89                                         8.09

2. B  Tarrif: A x 60% 0.00                                          4.85

3. C  Excise Tax: (A+B+C+D) x 60% or 1.7647059(A+B) 12.16 22.84

4. D  Municipal Tax: C x 10% 1.22                              2.28

5. E  Health Tax: C x 2% 0.24                                    0.46

6. F  VAT (A+B+C+D+E) x 7% 1.44                              2.70

   Total After Tax Cost (A+B+C+D+E+F) 21.94         41.22

   Effective Tax Burden 218%                                   410%

https://www.econ.chula.ac.th/public/publication/journal/2015/Jordan French.PDF

[spidermike007]

19 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

No i meant my personal refrigerated cellar of which I have two 48 bottle ones, one for the whites and Pinots, and the other for the reds. I had two others that I sold off. I really want to install a large one in my house in Hua Hin, in my study.  The refrigerated units works well.  In the US I have a house with a cellar in the basement which is temperature controlled, of course with living here my sister and her husband who live three houses down partake of the wines there and then restock.

Have you been able to find a source for good quality pinot noir here? I have not. In California I get very good quality single vineyard Sonoma wines for $50. Here? Difficult to find, and way, way overpriced. 

 

 

[ThailandRyan]

20 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

Have you been able to find a source for good quality pinot noir here? I have not. In California I get very good quality single vineyard Sonoma wines for $50. Here? Difficult to find, and way, way overpriced. 

 

 

The only Pinot's I have are ones I brought back with me on this last trip to the US.  When I used to go back and forth every 3 months I would bring in bottles to stock up on.  Never had any issues, always carried two bottles in my carry on and then 4 Bottles in my two travel suitcases which were wrapped in bubble wrapped and placed inside of a cold case.  The last two years with the Pandemic I pick up the majority of my wine through the Wine Connection.

 

The pinot I like from the US is the cherry-pie-san-pablo-bay-block-pinot-noir 

Edited August 21, 2022 by ThailandRyan

[xylophone]

I thought I might jump in here, mainly because there are few comments which interest me, especially having started my winetasting/collecting in or around 1970, so have tasted a fair few bottles, mostly red, in that time.

 

Firstly, I have tasted a few Thai wines, and have visited a couple of vineyards, but cannot say that I have been overly impressed with them, especially with the prices being charged, so after my first few tastings, I've never bought another one.

 

There have been some comments about the Napa Valley wine and Australian Shiraz, so my thoughts are as follows: – the Napa Valley can produce some great wines, and like other wine producing areas, can produce some very average ones, and an American friend of mine here who had only tasted "insipid" Californian Shiraz, thought that the Aussie wines would be likewise, and was stuck on Zinfandel. So I had to put him right with a good hefty Aussie Shiraz tasting.

 

Having said that I have tasted a couple of wonderful Zinfandel's, which I can not find here in Thailand at the moment, although I keep looking.

 

Talking to him, it would appear that the Californian Shiraz was a sort of everyday drinker and quite possibly from young vines and for mass production/cask wines, so he hadn't tasted the "real thing".

 

Having said that, there are some average Aussie wines, although these days my tastes lean towards Aussie wines (with some Italian ones thrown in) and these are made for the mass-market, and some can occasionally be good. However there are some big bold Aussie wines which really do need to be tasted, and really do need to be left a few years, because in their youth they are damn near undrinkable!

 

Some wine writers have criticised Robert Parker for glorifying these types of huge, almost undrinkable when young, wines, and I agree with that because he gives some huge scores to wines of this ilk and promotes them wherever possible.

 

Max Schubert of Penfolds started the "next level" Shiraz in Australia, whereas prior to him it was a widely grown grape and produced a lot of average drinkers, in fact in the 1980s and a little beyond, the Aussie government promoted the pulling up of old/unproductive vines (and that included some Shiraz as many of these vines had been planted decades before) in Australia because there was a glut and the quality of the wine was not anything special. That has changed over the years, and it has been recognised that old vines can produce some stunning wines and the Aussie Shiraz and Cabernet Sauvignon wines from various areas are some of the best you will find anywhere.

 

Vineyard techniques have also changed over the years and vine irrigation is often seen as necessary, and it has to be carefully controlled and regulated so that the end product is of sufficient quality and not purely driven by water (if you see what I mean). The object of the exercise being that the vine roots should be under a little stress so that they delve deeper into the soil searching out moisture and nutrients, thereby affecting the quality of the end result – wine!

 

Regarding the above, with hotter summer temperatures and "climate change" I believe vine irrigation will become a key factor in the production of wines over the coming decade or two.

 

Now an interesting fact if one wants to watch a good and interesting movie, which is based on actual events, and also stars the wonderful, late, Alan Rickman, and it is called "Bottle Shock" whereby wines from the Napa Valley beat the best wines that France could produce, in a blind tasting in Paris and the panel of judges were all French.........see below and it is well worth watching. 

 

The Paris Wine Tasting of 1976, also known as the Judgment of Paris, was a wine competition organized in Paris on 24 May 1976 by Steven Spurrier, a British wine merchant and his colleague, Patricia Gallagher, in which French judges carried out two blind tasting comparisons: one of top-quality Chardonnays and another of red wines (Bordeaux wines from France and Cabernet Sauvignon wines from Napa, California).[1][2] A Napa wine rated best in each category, which caused surprise as France was generally regarded as being the foremost producer of the world's best wines. Spurrier sold only French wine and believed that the California wines would not win.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgment_of_Paris_(wine)
 

[xylophone]

35 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

Have you been able to find a source for good quality pinot noir here? I have not. In California I get very good quality single vineyard Sonoma wines for $50. Here? Difficult to find, and way, way overpriced. 

 

 

Nice work if you can get it/them, however I have tried a few French Pinot Noirs here, and some of the better ones, however have been hugely disappointed – – maybe that's because my tastes have changed since my days of buying it by the case (Pommard Clos des Epenots was a favourite) and I have become accustomed to the fruit driven and great range of Aussie wines.

[Phuket Stan]

Wine used to be quite reasonable in Thailand during the 1990s but the huge recession that hit the country 1997 causing a huge (50%plus)devaluation of the currency.....The Thai HiSo  had been drinking top class wines with vigor as if there was no tomorrow so the Govt banged on all these high taxes overnight...Champagne was cheaper here than in France

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, ThailandRyan said:

No i meant my personal refrigerated cellar of which I have two 48 bottle ones, one for the whites and Pinots, and the other for the reds. I had two others that I sold off. I really want to install a large one in my house in Hua Hin, in my study.  The refrigerated units works well.  In the US I have a house with a cellar in the basement which is temperature controlled, of course with living here my sister and her husband who live three houses down partake of the wines there and then restock.

You refrigerate reds? Good grief.

[ThailandRyan]

17 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

You refrigerate reds? Good grief.

No i let them sit in the heat at 28 Celsius, to breakdown and become undrinkable.  Do you know much about wine refrigerators, or are you just trolling. You are aware that:

In most respects, wine refrigerators offer the environment for proper wine storage. They are designed to maintain ideal temperatures specific for storing wine, in the 45 F to 60 F range. Additionally, the design is meant to minimize vibration while holding the wines sideways in a cool, dark environment.

 

Edited August 21, 2022 by ThailandRyan

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, ThailandRyan said:

Shiraz's dominate my cellar, and I drink plenty of Australian wines, Chilean wines, and French wines.  My comment was directed at the fact that one needs to go and tour wineries and do some tastings in order to find a wine which is made local that meets their needs and tastes. My wine cellar has many different wineries from around the world which can be bought here.  What I find odd is that wines from the US are priced higher than a French Bordeaux here, and Australian wines run between 600 and 900 baht for the brands I purchase Like Peppercorn, or Zontes Footstep Chocolate Factory Shiraz whose 2017 bottling is among the top 4% of wines in the world. Anything from the Mclaren Vale in Australia is decent wine. Two Hands Lily Garden Shiraz is also decent.

I would still like to know what you consider to be a drinkable and reasonable cost Thai wine, as I have yet to find one.

 

McLaren Vale is just one of the good wine regions. Margaret River for whites, Rutherglen for bold reds that really smack one in the mouth. Hunter Valley, Barossa, Clare Valley, Heathcote, Warby Ranges, Mornington Peninsula.

 

The high volume wines such as Yellowtail are drinkable, but nowhere near what one gets at some of the boutique vineyards. Although I do have to admit a few are up themselves on price/quality.

 

[moogradod]

13 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

You refrigerate reds? Good grief.

How else do you want to bring the (red) wine to the recommended drinking temperature (usually well below 20 degrees Celsius) in Thailands climate ? He even uses a dedicated wine storage. Plebs like me must be satisfied with a normal fridge just to cool it down before opening. But I have less to store. We usually drink it more or less o the spot.

 

(I did only now see the post of ThailandRyan)

Edited August 21, 2022 by moogradod

[Lacessit]

2 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

No i let them sit in the heat at 28 Celsius, to breakdown and become undrinkable.  Do you know much about wine refrigerators, or are you just trolling. You are aware that:

In most respects, wine refrigerators offer the environment for proper wine storage. They are designed to maintain ideal temperatures specific for storing wine, in the 45 F to 60 F range. Additionally, the design is meant to minimize vibration while holding the wines sideways in a cool, dark environment.

 

It's a balancing act, too cold and the wines will not mature successfully, too hot and they are ruined as you say. My mistake, I thought you were referring to a normal refrigerator.

Never needed special storage in Melbourne.

[ExpatOilWorker]

Some reasonable wine deals at Central.

 

[ThailandRyan]

19 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I would still like to know what you consider to be a drinkable and reasonable cost Thai wine, as I have yet to find one.

 

McLaren Vale is just one of the good wine regions. Margaret River for whites, Rutherglen for bold reds that really smack one in the mouth. Hunter Valley, Barossa, Clare Valley, Heathcote, Warby Ranges, Mornington Peninsula.

 

The high volume wines such as Yellowtail are drinkable, but nowhere near what one gets at some of the boutique vineyards. Although I do have to admit a few are up themselves on price/quality.

 

PB Khao Yai has some decent enough wines and have been awarded gold medals at tastings in Vienna, of course it is up to you to try and decide if it is good or as some would say a plonk....

 

Monsoon Valley also has some decent wines as well as GranMonte Vineyard.  As always tastes differ between all of us.  Are they 91 to 95 grade wines, well no, but they are notable.

 

Reasonable price for you is what 150 Bht for a bottle of Thai wine.  I find 600Thb is about average for a decent Thai wine, of course money for me is not the issue, it is the drinkability and sitting with a nice glass in the evening while looking out the windows and listening to some classic jazz.

 

Edited August 21, 2022 by ThailandRyan

[xylophone]

23 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

It's a balancing act, too cold and the wines will not mature successfully, too hot and they are ruined as you say. My mistake, I thought you were referring to a normal refrigerator.

Never needed special storage in Melbourne.

It is quite possible that ThailandRyan has a wine cooler a bit like the one I have here, and it is temperature controllable for red as well as white wines, and as I only drink red wines and port, the setting is a given!

[toofarnorth]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

You refrigerate reds? Good grief.

As for me , I do put an ice cube in Red , I think drinking at cellar temperature here is a bit silly. White wine , bottle is in the fridge right now.

[toofarnorth]

24 minutes ago, xylophone said:

It is quite possible that ThailandRyan has a wine cooler a bit like the one I have here, and it is temperature controllable for red as well as white wines, and as I only drink red wines and port, the setting is a given!

I would love a glass of Port , where can I buy it.

[Lacessit]

36 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

PB Khao Yai has some decent enough wines and have been awarded gold medals at tastings in Vienna, of course it is up to you to try and decide if it is good or as some would say a plonk....

 

Monsoon Valley also has some decent wines as well as GranMonte Vineyard.  As always tastes differ between all of us.  Are they 91 to 95 grade wines, well no, but they are notable.

 

Reasonable price for you is what 150 Bht for a bottle of Thai wine.  I find 600Thb is about average for a decent Thai wine, of course money for me is not the issue, it is the drinkability and sitting with a nice glass in the evening while looking out the windows and listening to some classic jazz.

 

I am willing to pay up to 500 baht for a good wine. 700 baht for a Jacob's Creek Shiraz is complete BS. I sometimes pick up a Wolf Blass blend for 400 baht.

 

I bought the wine below at a wine cellar that dealt in upmarket wines in Australia. I told the store owner I wanted a good red that would travel well, explaining it had to endure temperature extremes of an aircraft hold and the Thai climate. About 700 baht in Oz.

When we opened it last year for a friend's birthday ( one glass each ) we all agreed it was magnificent.

Thanks for the names, I'll check them out.

[Nickelbeer]

ALL alcohol is too expensive in Thailand. beer should not cost any more than it does in Cambodia, but they are determined to tax to the max every recreational brew.

[Lacessit]

4 minutes ago, Nickelbeer said:

ALL alcohol is too expensive in Thailand. beer should not cost any more than it does in Cambodia, but they are determined to tax to the max every recreational brew.

Thai rum such as Sangsom and Hong Thong is less than half the price one would pay in Australia. I don't know what the tax is here for spirits, but it's brutal in Oz.

[xylophone]

10 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I am willing to pay up to 500 baht for a good wine. 700 baht for a Jacob's Creek Shiraz is complete BS. I sometimes pick up a Wolf Blass blend for 400 baht.

 

I bought the wine below at a wine cellar that dealt in upmarket wines in Australia. I told the store owner I wanted a good red that would travel well, explaining it had to endure temperature extremes of an aircraft hold and the Thai climate. About 700 baht in Oz.

When we opened it last year for a friend's birthday ( one glass each ) we all agreed it was magnificent.

Thanks for the names, I'll check them out.

Haven't tried a particular wine and was interested to see the grapes used, in as much as Roussanne is rarely seen outside of the Rhône wines, and is used to "soften" the Syrah (Shiraz) in that area, where allowed, and is allowed in the Ch Neuf du Papes blend. Also blended with Marsanne to produce white wines

 

I will have a look around the "wine cellar" area of Tops to see if they have that particular wine, as would love to try it, with wines from Cote Rotie and that area once being a favourite of mine.

Edited August 21, 2022 by xylophone