Enoch Powell, he wasnt wrong in his forecast !

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

That was an awfully fortuitous conversation you had all those years ago, but just as well you remembered it when it would come in handy.

 

Well done you.

Yes the old black lesbian gambit.

Either it didn't happen or it's irrelevant to proving any point what one person says as if one person could possibly represents all of any group.

So basically a cheap debate trick.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Jingthing

[CG1 Blue]

On 9/2/2022 at 8:48 AM, Chomper Higgot said:

Surely that’s a matter of Government not allocating resources in accordance with population?

 

They are after all collecting more taxes on the increased economic activity.

 

Or is it a matter of the Government failing on multiple fronts so let’s start blaming immigrants?

 

Afterall, they’ve been in power for twelve years and, despite lots of promises and a great deal of noise, haven’t sorted this out yet.

 

You've disproved the theory that mass immigration has a positive impact on the economy. The increased tax take and economic activity is clearly not outweighing the overall cost - otherwise the UK economy wouldn't be suffering so much. 

Controlled immigration with a gradual population increase is good. What we've seen over the past 30 years is not so good. 

[placeholder]

9 hours ago, proton said:

 I asked a black lesbian activist in the 80's how she defined racism (they almost never can) she said- it's what ever we say it is!

Like transphobia and it's mate islamophobia these are just words to stop and demonise anyone being critical or even talking about the facts of immigration and Islam and what effects these have had on the UK.

Powell drastically underestimated how the numbers would explode, but anyone who cannot admit his prediction of what would happen coming true must have their head in the sand. What he said was correct and still no politician wants to even talk about it, or do anything.

Powell predicted that there would be rivers of blood by the year 1991. It's true that the rivers are now more polluted than they've been in a long time, but it's sewage, not blood, that's the problem.

[proton]

37 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Powell predicted that there would be rivers of blood by the year 1991. It's true that the rivers are now more polluted than they've been in a long time, but it's sewage, not blood, that's the problem.

You appear, like most whining about his speech, not to have read it. It neither mentions 1991 or that there would be rivers of blood in the UK. He mentions a classical quote of the river TIBER flowing with much blood, implying troubled times and anguish, not armed insurrection on our streets. 

 

https://anth1001.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/enoch-powell_speech.pdf

Edited September 3, 2022 by proton

[placeholder]

5 minutes ago, proton said:

You appear, like most whining about his speech, not to have read it. It neither mentions 1991 or that there would be rivers of blood in the UK. He mentions a classical quote of the river TIBER flowing with much blood, implying troubled times and anguish, not armed insurrection on our streets. 

 

https://anth1001.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/enoch-powell_speech.pdf

Oh, is that what it implied? Out of all the classical quotations he could have cited, and being a classical scholar there were so many open to him, he chose that one? 

[proton]

9 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Oh, is that what it implied? Out of all the classical quotations he could have cited, and being a classical scholar there were so many open to him, he chose that one? 

So you never read it then and just made up the 1991 part and really want to believe he meant actual butchery in the streets? Well, if you look at the list of stabbings in London alone this year perhaps that is not too far off.

[placeholder]

11 minutes ago, proton said:

So you never read it then and just made up the 1991 part and really want to believe he meant actual butchery in the streets? Well, if you look at the list of stabbings in London alone this year perhaps that is not too far off.

No I didn't make up the 1991 part. He predicted in 1971 that in 15-20 years that would be the state of things. I gave him the benefit of the doubt by using 1991. And in England and Wales for a 12 month period beginning in 2021 and ending in 2022 there were a total of 710 homicides out of a total population of about 59 million.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/283093/homicides-in-england-and-wales/

If that's your idea of a river of blood, you are seriously under acquainted with history.

Edited September 3, 2022 by placeholder

[Mac Mickmanus]

3 minutes ago, placeholder said:

No I didn't make up the 1991 part. He predicted in 1971 that in 15-20 years that would be the state of things. I gave him the benefit of the doubt by using 1991. And in England and Wales for a 12 month period beginning in 2021 and ending in 2022 there were a total of 710 homicides out of a total population of about 59 million.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/283093/homicides-in-england-and-wales/

If that's your idea of a river of blood, you are seriously under acquainted with history.

The speech in question was made in 1968

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The speech in question was made in 1968

Actually I believe it was in that Dick Cavett interview that he foretold disaster in 15-20 years. The interview took place in 1971

[Mac Mickmanus]

9 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Actually I believe it was in that Dick Cavett interview that he foretold disaster in 15-20 years. The interview took place in 1971

I just listened to the speech again and he said no such thing .

I suggest that you listen to the speech as well , before falsely saying its content 

[pedro01]

Enoch Powell was a nasty little racist. 

 

No big shock to see he has fans here. 

[Mac Mickmanus]

2 minutes ago, pedro01 said:

Enoch Powell was a nasty little racist. 

 

No big shock to see he has fans here. 

He was from an era where people could actually talk about things, rather than just calling each other names .

  Like *Only racists talk about immigration*

[NanLaew]

On 9/2/2022 at 11:54 AM, bert bloggs said:

On 9/2/2022 at 11:46 AM, Chomper Higgot said:

Look what you just did.

 

You picked out one racial group.

 

 

He did,the most violent one,in the paper today 19 teenagers kicking a girl on the floor, the picture says it all ,all black

Oops, here we go again. It's in 'the paper' again.

 

Shock...horror...fear(mongering)...

Edited September 3, 2022 by NanLaew

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Hi, are you in the right thread ?

This thread is about a UK Politicians speech from 50 years ago

It's about racism. Powell was infamously racist and that's the single reason his name is known to anyone today.

[Mac Mickmanus]

2 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

It's about racism. Powell was infamously racist and that's the single reason his name is known to anyone today.

........................and what is the connection between that and Trump calling Biden "Sleepy Joe" ?

[ozimoron]

5 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

........................and what is the connection between that and Trump calling Biden "Sleepy Joe" ?

You deflected into politicians calling each other names and now you're complaining about discussion of it? lol

[Mac Mickmanus]

4 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

You deflected into politicians calling each other names and now you're complaining about discussion of it? lol

No, I said when the film was made 50 years ago, that was when people had discussions without calling each other names

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

No, I said when the film was made 50 years ago, that was when people had discussions without calling each other names

The thread is about politicians. Enoch Powell was a politician.

[Chomper Higgot]

9 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

You've disproved the theory that mass immigration has a positive impact on the economy. The increased tax take and economic activity is clearly not outweighing the overall cost - otherwise the UK economy wouldn't be suffering so much. 

Controlled immigration with a gradual population increase is good. What we've seen over the past 30 years is not so good. 

You’ll need to demonstrate that link.

 

But yes, I’m quite sure this failing Government would like voters to believe their failures are all down to immigration.

 

The most on topic failure of this 12 year old Government is of course the failure to control immigration, despite having destroyed the economy, ostensibly to get back control of the UK’s borders.

 

So go ahead, trot out the old favorite rightwing excuse - scapegoat immigrants. 
 

It doesn’t solve anything but I’m sure it helps you to clear the bile.

 

 

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

6 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

He was from an era where people could actually talk about things, rather than just calling each other names .

  Like *Only racists talk about immigration*

Actually he wasn’t from an era when people could ‘talk about things’.

 

There were a number of topics that could not be openly discussed at the time without fear of reprisals, losing your job or perhaps criminal prosecution.

 

Beyond those issues he lived at a time when people, particularly women, were unable to openly discuss health issues with their own doctor, this was challenged and changed by individuals who did have a public platform, mainly women, bravely speaking out about serious health matters.

 

People suffered illness and abuse in silence, people ‘knew their place’. 

 

At the time Powell was speaking very many people were unable to speak up.

 

The reaction of the rightwing and the rightwing press was to try to shut these people up when they did so.

 

So quit with this nonsense that at the time the Racist Powell was speaking ‘people could actually talk about things.

 

It’s demonstrable hogwash.

 

The deference shown the Racist Powell was all part and parcel of the same problem.

 

There were the few who could speak, and the masses who could not.

 

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Chomper Higgot

[Mac Mickmanus]

Coincidently enough , I have just watched a video of Pakistanis and Indians having a mass street fight in Leicester .

  Seems to be sports related  

[Mac Mickmanus]

6 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Actually he wasn’t from an era when people could ‘talk about things’.

 

There were a number of topics that could not be openly discussed at the time without fear of reprisals, losing your job or perhaps criminal prosecution.

 

Beyond those issues he lived at a time when people, particularly women, were unable to openly discuss health issues with their own doctor, this was challenged and changed by individuals who did have a public platform, mainly women, bravely speaking out about serious health matters.

 

People suffered illness and abuse in silence, people ‘knew their place’. 

 

At the time Powell was speaking very many people were unable to speak up.

 

The reaction of the rightwing and the rightwing press was to try to shut these people up when they did so.

 

So quit with this nonsense that at the time the Racist Powell was speaking ‘people could actually talk about things.

 

It’s demonstrable hogwash.

 

The deference shown the Racist Powell was all part and parcel of the same problem.

 

There were the few who could speak, and the masses who could not.

 

 

There were many people who spoke up against Enochs speech at the time  and I believe that Enoch lost his job because of his speech .

    That was when people used to speak and listen , these days its all shouting at each other all at the same time , yelling abuse and trying to silence the other person . 

[ozimoron]

Just now, Mac Mickmanus said:

There were many people who spoke up against Enochs speech at the time  and I believe that Enoch lost his job because of his speech .

    That was when people used to speak and listen , these days its all shouting at each other all at the same time , yelling abuse and trying to silence the other person . 

The abuse was from Powell himself. You might reflect on why he lost his job. Even then his views were regarded as toxic.

[Chomper Higgot]

7 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

There were many people who spoke up against Enochs speech at the time  and I believe that Enoch lost his job because of his speech .

    That was when people used to speak and listen , these days its all shouting at each other all at the same time , yelling abuse and trying to silence the other person . 

I’m not shouting at you.

 

I’ve listened to your argument and made a reasoned counter argument.

 

Is that a problem?

 

Perhaps you are referring the multiple personal attacks I’ve had to put up with from rightwing members in this discussion (and others).

 

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Chomper Higgot

[Mac Mickmanus]

2 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

The abuse was from Powell himself. You might reflect on why he lost his job. Even then his views were regarded as toxic.

Do you think that the UK should have an open door policy to the citizens of the Commonwealth , where 2 500 000 000 people could legally get on a airplane and go and live in the U.K ?

   Should all Commonwealth citizens have the right to live in the U.K?

  All 2 and a half Billion of them ?

Or should there be visa restrictions ?

That is what Enoch was saying , there needed to be visa restrictions on people from the Commonwealth .

   Do you agree with him or not ?

[Mac Mickmanus]

3 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I’m not shouting at you.

I’ve listened to your argument and made a reasoned counter argument.

Is that a problem?

 

 

 

I didn't say that you were shouting at me .

I was talking about interviews with Politicians on television 

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Do you think that the UK should have an open door policy to the citizens of the Commonwealth , where 2 500 000 000 people could legally get on a airplane and go and live in the U.K ?

   Should all Commonwealth citizens have the right to live in the U.K?

  All 2 and a half Billion of them ?

Or should there be visa restrictions ?

That is what Enoch was saying , there needed to be visa restrictions on people from the Commonwealth .

   Do you agree with him or not ?

Those are not the words for which Powell was vilified.

 

I've already said that nobody supports unrestricted immigration. That's not the point.

Edited September 4, 2022 by ozimoron

[Mac Mickmanus]

Just now, ozimoron said:

Those are not the words for which Powell was vilified.

That was the gist of what he was saying .

Do you disagree with him ?

[ozimoron]

Just now, Mac Mickmanus said:

That was the gist of what he was saying .

Do you disagree with him ?

I'm not arguing about the gist of what he was saying but what he actually said.

[NanLaew]

2 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Hi, are you in the right thread ?

This thread is about a UK Politicians speech from 50 years ago

Yeah. This is the (increasingly irrelevant) dinosaur fan club thread.