Hungary can ‘no longer be considered a full democracy,’ says EU Parliament

[nauseus]

1 minute ago, Phoenix Rising said:

Quite, which will make your re-entry even more difficult and costly for you. But, of course, in the end everyone in the EU and the UK will benefit. 

Read the link.

[Phoenix Rising]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

Read the link.

I briefly perused it just to confirm it was utterly pointless. Meanwhile, here is a link you might find useful to follow before your impending re-entry:

 

Buy Vaseline petroleum jelly on Amazon

 

[placeholder]

6 hours ago, nauseus said:

27 countries 5.5x the size of just one - outstanding.

It' says a lot about your way of thinking and nothing at all about economic reality that you think this is relevant or significant. It's a market that 5.5 times the size of the UK's. The whole point of the EU is that it doesn't matter how many countries are in it when it comes to buying and selling, because, to coin a phrase, it's a Common Market.

[puchooay]

The heat is off Hungary now.  

 

Time for the EU to concentrate on Italy. 

[nauseus]

9 hours ago, Phoenix Rising said:

I briefly perused it just to confirm it was utterly pointless. Meanwhile, here is a link you might find useful to follow before your impending re-entry:

 

Buy Vaseline petroleum jelly on Amazon

 

Why pointless? Germany and the EU will slip like everywhere else.

 

And you can use that Vaseline for your own entry.

 

 

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, placeholder said:

It' says a lot about your way of thinking and nothing at all about economic reality that you think this is relevant or significant. It's a market that 5.5 times the size of the UK's. The whole point of the EU is that it doesn't matter how many countries are in it when it comes to buying and selling, because, to coin a phrase, it's a Common Market.

And you were giving me a lesson in arithmetic? The EU is not all about economics - this was not the main driver of the leave vote in the UK - try and get used to that.  

[candide]

1 hour ago, puchooay said:

The heat is off Hungary now.  

 

Time for the EU to concentrate on Italy. 

Why? Does the future Italian  government intend to muzzle opposition, to censure the media and control the judiciary? It's not what they have stated so far.

Edited September 26, 2022 by candide

[puchooay]

15 minutes ago, candide said:

Why? Does the future Italian  government intend to muzzle opposition, to censure the media and control the judiciary? It's not what they have stated so far.

I think you are missing the point.

 

EU don't like far right politics.

 

 

[nauseus]

On 9/17/2022 at 4:09 PM, RayC said:

No mechanism to do so

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_7_of_the_Treaty_on_European_Union%23:~:text%3Din%20Poland's%20favour.-,Expulsion,but%20failed%20to%20be%20included.&ved=2ahUKEwi0p7r7vJv6AhXMO-wKHUkNBtcQFnoECAgQBQ&usg=AOvVaw2ZTL1zgvT_k11u1v-Yi19i

Amazing eh? The Klingon Empire.

 

[nauseus]

On 9/19/2022 at 7:46 AM, Chomper Higgot said:

In general es, but not necessarily so:

 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-boris-johnson-hires-unelected-23518890

 

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/prime-minister-lost-seat-general-election

Yes, that's why I used the word generally.

[RayC]

43 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Amazing eh? The Klingon Empire.

 

The EU cannot expel a member state but member states are free to leave the EU.

 

How does that make the EU, "the Klingon Empire"?

 

[RayC]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

And you were giving me a lesson in arithmetic? The EU is not all about economics - this was not the main driver of the leave vote in the UK - try and get used to that.  

I assume that you mean that sovereignty was?

 

We've been here many times before. Between 1997 - 2016, the UK was forced to enact 3% of EU legislation which it had voted against.

 

So all this turmoil for what is, in effect, 3% more sovereignty. A price worth paying? Not imo.

[JonnyF]

4 hours ago, puchooay said:

I think you are missing the point.

 

EU don't like far right politics.

 

 

The EU doesn't like anyone who opposes their failing federalist project. Giorgia Meloni isn't really far right though, she is centre right. The left love to label anyone to the right of centre as 'far right' or 'alt right' in at attempt to discredit them, simply because they fear them.

 

In this case however, the EU is probably right to fear them. They are against the globalist agenda of the EU and many of it's prominent leaders such as Macron. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Italexit back on the cards under Meloni. If that happened, it could well signal the end of the EU. And not a moment too soon IMO, had they remained a trading bloc it would have been fine but too many power hungry politicians saw it as an opportunity for empire building. Still, you live and learn.

[JonnyF]

3 hours ago, RayC said:

I assume that you mean that sovereignty was?

 

We've been here many times before. Between 1997 - 2016, the UK was forced to enact 3% of EU legislation which it had voted against.

 

So all this turmoil for what is, in effect, 3% more sovereignty. A price worth paying? Not imo.

Just because the removal of sovereignty is gradual, does not mean it is not occuring. Despite the EU's best efforts to pretend it wasn't happening, many of us could see the direction of travel and didn't like it one bit. Hence we voted to leave, and left.

 

True Democracy in action.

[stevenl]

31 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

The EU doesn't like anyone who opposes their failing federalist project. Giorgia Meloni isn't really far right though, she is centre right. The left love to label anyone to the right of centre as 'far right' or 'alt right' in at attempt to discredit them, simply because they fear them.

 

In this case however, the EU is probably right to fear them. They are against the globalist agenda of the EU and many of it's prominent leaders such as Macron. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Italexit back on the cards under Meloni. If that happened, it could well signal the end of the EU. And not a moment too soon IMO, had they remained a trading bloc it would have been fine but too many power hungry politicians saw it as an opportunity for empire building. Still, you live and learn.

Italy is receiving many grants plus is borrowing money from the EU. There are conditions to receiving those moneys.

Italy knows what's keeping her alive.

[JonnyF]

16 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Italy is receiving many grants plus is borrowing money from the EU. There are conditions to receiving those moneys.

Italy knows what's keeping her alive.

Grants? Where does that money come from? You mean the EU is giving back some of the money Italy pays the EU every year... And for this, Italy should be grateful? EU logic...

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/316691/eu-budget-contributions-by-country/

 

 

 

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

Grants? Where does that money come from? You mean the EU is giving back some of the money Italy pays the EU every year... And for this, Italy should be grateful? EU logic...

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/316691/eu-budget-contributions-by-country/

 

 

 

These figures are, of course, incomplete, since they take no account of how much each nation receives from the EU. In other words, is it a net contributor or net beneficiary. The net contributions would be much much lower than the numbesr you cite.. So why cite them?

Also, it doesn't take into account contributions on a per capita basis. The UK has roughly 13 times the population of Finland. Did it contribute on  13 times as much on a net per capita basis?

Edited September 27, 2022 by placeholder

[JonnyF]

38 minutes ago, placeholder said:

These figures are, of course, incomplete, since they take no account of how much each nation receives from the EU. In other words, is it a net contributor or net beneficiary. The net contributions would be much much lower than the numbesr you cite.. So why cite them?

Also, it doesn't take into account contributions on a per capita basis. The UK has roughly 13 times the population of Finland. Did it contribute on  13 times as much on a net per capita basis?

Let's look at net contributors then...

 

Oh look, the UK moved up one place in the chart from 3rd to 2nd. Shame they left huh. Italy still in 4th place. 

 

https://www.statista.com/chart/18794/net-contributors-to-eu-budget/

 

[Phoenix Rising]

7 hours ago, RayC said:

The EU cannot expel a member state but member states are free to leave the EU.

 

How does that make the EU, "the Klingon Empire"?

 

Because it helps to mask the mind numbingly inane decision to leave the EU, the common market the UK had unlimited access to, with hundreds of millions of potential customers right on their doorstep.

Don't know what was the worst decision ever made by an electorate in a Western democracy; Brexit or the election of trump (although to be fair he did get less votes than his rival).

One thing is for sure, both outcomes have launched their respective countries on a markedly downward trajectory.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Phoenix Rising

[placeholder]

44 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Let's look at net contributors then...

 

Oh look, the UK moved up one place in the chart from 3rd to 2nd. Shame they left huh. Italy still in 4th place. 

 

https://www.statista.com/chart/18794/net-contributors-to-eu-budget/

 

So you're focusing on ranking rather than the net contribution? Really? So apparently, to your way of thinking the rank is more important than the actual net contribution? 

Also, this ranking is by nation and takes no account of population. Naturally the UK will have contributed more than the Netherland on a gross basis. It was the 2nd most populous country in the EU. But on a per capita basis?

[JonnyF]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

So you're focusing on ranking rather than the net contribution? Really? So apparently, to your way of thinking the rank is more important than the actual net contribution? 

Also, this ranking is by nation and takes no account of population. Naturally the UK will have contributed more than the Netherland on a gross basis. It was the 2nd most populous country in the EU. But on a per capita basis?

The chart shows the net contribution per year in Billions of Euros. That is what I am focusing on because that is what the EU will lose if/when Italy leaves.

 

Per capita is not particularly relevant to the discussion. If the EU loses 7 Billion Euros per year net contribution I am not sure there will be particularly concerned about the 'per capita' amount compared to The Netherlands. They will be down 7 Billion Euros and 2 of the top 4 net contributors in terms of "Billions of Euros net contribution" will have left in under a decade.

 

Of course, all of this talk of ranking and per capita contributions is your attempt to divert away from the fact that Italy is a large net contributor, and doesn't "need" the EU for grants as the other poster was trying to suggest. It's the old Europhile trick of claiming the EU 'gives them money', when in reality they are receiving back in funding much less from the EU than they put in (hence the term "Net Contributor"). 

 

Send me 1000 Baht, I'll return 400 and tell you to be grateful that I am "funding you" ????. 

 

 

 

 

[candide]

9 hours ago, puchooay said:

I think you are missing the point.

 

EU don't like far right politics.

 

 

No. It's you who have a distorted and biased view about why Hungary was sanctioned.

[placeholder]

41 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

The chart shows the net contribution per year in Billions of Euros. That is what I am focusing on because that is what the EU will lose if/when Italy leaves.

 

Per capita is not particularly relevant to the discussion. If the EU loses 7 Billion Euros per year net contribution I am not sure there will be particularly concerned about the 'per capita' amount compared to The Netherlands. They will be down 7 Billion Euros and 2 of the top 4 net contributors in terms of "Billions of Euros net contribution" will have left in under a decade.

 

Of course, all of this talk of ranking and per capita contributions is your attempt to divert away from the fact that Italy is a large net contributor, and doesn't "need" the EU for grants as the other poster was trying to suggest. It's the old Europhile trick of claiming the EU 'gives them money', when in reality they are receiving back in funding much less from the EU than they put in (hence the term "Net Contributor"). 

 

Send me 1000 Baht, I'll return 400 and tell you to be grateful that I am "funding you" ????. 

 

Actually, if you have been following the elections in Italy you would know that it's extremely unlikely that the right wing government of Italy will leave the EU, In fact, thanks to an approximately 200 billiion euro fund, Italy is actually in better shape financially now than the EU.

Britain has replaced Italy as Europe’s problem economy

By Sebastian Mallaby

However loudly the populists used to denounce Europe’s Germanic orthodoxy, they now promise to implement the economic plan drawn up by Draghi and approved by the E.U. — not least because it comes with almost $200 billion of post-pandemic recovery aid from Brussels.

Over the summer, fearing another euro-zone crisis triggered by the price shocks from the Ukraine war, the central bank created a bond-buying program to protect wobbly countries from short-selling hedge funds. To retain access to this support, Italy has to avoid crazy policies.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/09/26/britain-europe-weak-economy/

So, your claim that Italy doesn't need EU "grants" is irrelevant. More than ever it needs EU support. 

Within nations,  some regions are net contributors and some are net beneficiaries. Why should it be different in the EU? Especially, when the quantities, viewed in relation to a country's GDP are so small.  Do you know how relatively small the net contributions of the UK were to the EU? About 0.35% of total GDP.

[candide]

5 hours ago, JonnyF said:

The EU doesn't like anyone who opposes their failing federalist project. Giorgia Meloni isn't really far right though, she is centre right. The left love to label anyone to the right of centre as 'far right' or 'alt right' in at attempt to discredit them, simply because they fear them.

 

In this case however, the EU is probably right to fear them. They are against the globalist agenda of the EU and many of it's prominent leaders such as Macron. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Italexit back on the cards under Meloni. If that happened, it could well signal the end of the EU. And not a moment too soon IMO, had they remained a trading bloc it would have been fine but too many power hungry politicians saw it as an opportunity for empire building. Still, you live and learn.

European extreme right-wing parties have taken leaving the EU or leaving the eurozone out of their program, including in Italy, after watching how UK was faring. And It's not what the UK is currently experiencing which will change their mind.

Edited September 27, 2022 by candide

[puchooay]

17 minutes ago, candide said:

No. It's you who have a distorted and biased view about why Hungary was sanctioned.

I've never mentioned sanctions on Hungary. I merely pointed out that the EU have something else to think about.

 

My comment about right wing politics was in relation to the recent election results in Italy.

 

You have distorted what I said.

[JonnyF]

15 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Over the summer, fearing another euro-zone crisis triggered by the price shocks from the Ukraine war, the central bank created a bond-buying program to protect wobbly countries from short-selling hedge funds. To retain access to this support, Italy has to avoid crazy policies.

So now they are dressing up even tighter rules and regulations for Italy as 'protection' of Italy. Under threat of removing their funding (even though Italy is a net contributor to the federalist project as I have already demonstrated). Wow, Italy must be SO grateful. You gotta love the EU. ????

 

BTW, the Washington Post is notoriously ant British and anti Tory. I take their biased opinion pieces with a huge spoon of salt. Just one example of their nonsense below.

 

[candide]

5 minutes ago, puchooay said:

I've never mentioned sanctions on Hungary. I merely pointed out that the EU have something else to think about.

 

My comment about right wing politics was in relation to the recent election results in Italy.

 

You have distorted what I said.

You wrote:

"The heat is off Hungary now.  

 

Time for the EU to concentrate on Italy. "

 

Wasn't it an insinuation that the reason why Hungary has been sanctioned was because it was right-wing, and that Italy would enjoy the same fate with a far right government? What did you mean exactly?

[JonnyF]

28 minutes ago, candide said:

European extreme right-wing parties have taken leaving the EU or leaving the eurozone out of their program, including in Italy, after watching how UK was faring. And It's not what the UK is currently experiencing which will change their mind.

That's an opinion, not a fact.

 

Here is another opinion. 

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/8/30/italy-eu-face-big-risk-of-potential-far-right-victory-ex-pm

 

Personally I believe that Italy will try to renegotiate their terms with the EU. A bit like Britain did. We all know how that went.

 

 

[placeholder]

16 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

So now they are dressing up even tighter rules and regulations for Italy as 'protection' of Italy. Under threat of removing their funding (even though Italy is a net contributor to the federalist project as I have already demonstrated). Wow, Italy must be SO grateful. You gotta love the EU. ????

 

BTW, the Washington Post is notoriously ant British and anti Tory. I take their biased opinion pieces with a huge spoon of salt. Just one example of their nonsense below.

 

Italy's contributions are a fraction of the support they'll be getting from the EU. Do the math. And spare us the irrelevant slagging of the Washington Post. But I guess if you can't rebut the facts, that's the route you've got to take.

[JonnyF]

25 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Italy's contributions are a fraction of the support they'll be getting from the EU

Italy is a net contributor.

 

Meaning they put in more than they get out. I've already provided links to show this. Unless by support, you actually mean regulations banning them from acting autonomously...

 

The Washington Post is a rag. It's the equivalent of quoting The Daily Star. But hey, if that's the only source you can find to back up your points...