Ukraine applies for Nato membership after Russia annexes territory

[metisdead]

Posts going off topic about the sabotage of the pipeline have been removed, this topic is about:

 

Ukraine applies for Nato membership after Russia annexes territory

 

The topic about the sabotage of the pipeline is here:

 

Mystery leaks hit Russian undersea gas pipelines to Europe 

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13 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

Ukrainians are as much Europeans as Russians are. Read into that as you like.

 

Actually, Putin and other Russians who subscribe to his view would absolutely disagree with you on that score. Their ideology endorses something called Eurasian values which are in opposition to the values subscribed to by most of Europe.

[Lacessit]

3 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

True, not sure how that will work with the lend lease agreement now in play since 1st Oct for weapons from the US allowing Ukraine’s military to access a host of new resources in addition to the normal aid US gives.

 

This Ukraine joining of NATO announcement is in my opinion a red herring, just a message to Putin that talks are over. After all, back in early March at the beginning of the war Zelensky publicly stated that Ukraine will not become a member of NATO and offered that as a peace deal to Putin, this was ignored by the Kremlin.

 

President Zelensky: 'Ukraine won't join NATO to stop the war with Russia'

 

As we all know Putin's invasion is nothing to do with NATO and all to do with land grab.

I am not sure Zelensky's statement about joining NATO is a red herring. He probably knows Ukraine joining NATO would be Putin's worst nightmare.

I do find it interesting Zelensky is quite prominent in visiting the front lines, or pretty close to them, which is a big morale boost for the Ukrainian troops. In contrast, Putin sticks to Moscow, where he can hold carefully stage-managed rallies and meetings. I guess he knows if he went anywhere near the battlefield, he'd be at risk of getting shot by his own soldiers.

[Gweiloman]

5 hours ago, billd766 said:

You do post such absolute rubbish most of the time.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63126156

 

Ukrainian troops have broken through Russian positions on the Dnieper river north-east of Kherson, a strategic Russian-held city in southern Ukraine.

The advance was reported by the Russian military and Russian-installed officials in the region. There is heavy Russian defensive fire, they say.

Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky said "there are new liberated settlements in several regions".

In the east, Ukrainian forces pushed into Russian-held Luhansk region.

President Zelensky said "fierce fighting continues in many areas", in his evening address to the nation, but he did not give details.

On Saturday his forces recaptured the important hub town of Lyman in the east, lying near the Luhansk regional border. Russia's military had turned Lyman into a logistical base.

 

 

So it looks like the war will be ending soon? Good news then.

[metisdead]

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[Gweiloman]

7 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

True, not sure how that will work with the lend lease agreement now in play since 1st Oct for weapons from the US allowing Ukraine’s military to access a host of new resources in addition to the normal aid US gives.

 

This Ukraine joining of NATO announcement is in my opinion a red herring, just a message to Putin that talks are over. After all, back in early March at the beginning of the war Zelensky publicly stated that Ukraine will not become a member of NATO and offered that as a peace deal to Putin, this was ignored by the Kremlin.

 

President Zelensky: 'Ukraine won't join NATO to stop the war with Russia'

 

As we all know Putin's invasion is nothing to do with NATO and all to do with land grab.

You wrote “As we all know Putin's invasion is nothing to do with NATO and all to do with land grab.”

 

There are some very well respected experts, Prof. Jeffrey Sachs of Columbia University among them, who holds the opposite view. Unfortunately, I’m unable to link his video as it’s against forum rules. If you are interested, search Bloomberg.

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6 hours ago, placeholder said:

Actually, Putin and other Russians who subscribe to his view would absolutely disagree with you on that score. Their ideology endorses something called Eurasian values which are in opposition to the values subscribed to by most of Europe.

Here's a good, brief exposition of what Eurasianism is all about. In the article this is taken from, the author discusses how Putin cited one of its chief proponents, Lev Gumilev, in a major speech some time before Russia invaded Crimea. This kind of bizarre dogma now permeates Putin's thinking. 

 

The ideas of the Soviet historian are influencing a new generation of hardliners
      " In his later years, Gumilev celebrated Eurasianism, a theory developed in the 1920s by Russian exiles. Nostalgia for their homeland and the trauma of the Bolshevik revolution had led them to reject the idea that Russia could ever be western and bourgeois...The Enlightenment, in the form of advanced European social theories, had brought Russia to genocide and ruin, while there was a harmony in the wildness of the Huns, the Turks, the Mongols.

https://www.ft.com/content/ede1e5c6-e0c5-11e5-8d9b-e88a2a889797

 

It's pretty crazy stuff.

[billd766]

45 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

So it looks like the war will be ending soon? Good news then.

Like you, I have no idea when the war will be ending. I do however admit that I have no idea.

 

On the one hand, the Ukraine is demanding that ALL Russians leave the whole of the Ukraine, including the Crimea which they illegally annexed in 2014. They also want full reparations from Russia and ALL Russian servicemen accused of murder, torture, war criminals, et al, including Putin if he is still alive when the war ends. Hopefully they will all be handed over to the Hague as war criminals. IMHO perfectly reasonable demands.

 

 

OTOH there is the mentally deranged Putin, pouring troops (if he can find them) and equipment into a war that he started and is losing daily. The only threat really that he has left is the big red button, and he knows that if he gets to that stage it will really be all over for him. I am not sure that if he really carried that threat through that the military would actually do it, knowing that they will also die meaninglessly.

 

I would hope that some of his own generals will be seeing sense now and be really plotting against him.

 

It is said that he has a loyal bodyguard.

 

I would like to point out that Indira Gandhi also had an extremely loyal bodyguard, two of whom assassinated her.

[Bkk Brian]

10 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

You wrote “As we all know Putin's invasion is nothing to do with NATO and all to do with land grab.”

 

There are some very well respected experts, Prof. Jeffrey Sachs of Columbia University among them, who holds the opposite view. Unfortunately, I’m unable to link his video as it’s against forum rules. If you are interested, search Bloomberg.

Not surprising really, Sach's an economist including a former economist advisor to Russia who promotes anti US propaganda on his own website. Denies the Uighur Chinese atrocities, Sachs has also repeated COVID-19 disinformation by China by stating publicly that COVID-19 came out of "US lab biotechnology" Also known as "Jeffrey Sachs, China's Apologist in Chief"

 

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19 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

You wrote “As we all know Putin's invasion is nothing to do with NATO and all to do with land grab.”

 

There are some very well respected experts, Prof. Jeffrey Sachs of Columbia University among them, who holds the opposite view. Unfortunately, I’m unable to link his video as it’s against forum rules. If you are interested, search Bloomberg.

Believe it or not, videos aren't the only way to absorb information. In fact, they're not even a good way. Much more difficult to critically examine arguments presented via videos (or podcsts). I don't understand your predilection for them. Here's some written stuff from Jeffrey Sachs with links to the articles.  

 

Ukraine Is the Latest Neocon Disaster

https://www.jeffsachs.org/newspaper-articles/m6rb2a5tskpcxzesjk8hhzf96zh7w7

 

Ending the War of Attrition in Ukraine

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/only-negotiation-can-end-ukraine-war-of-attrition-by-jeffrey-d-sachs-2022-05?barrier=accesspaylog

 

 

[Lacessit]

19 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Not surprising really, Sach's an economist including a former economist advisor to Russia who promotes anti US propaganda on his own website. Denies the Uighur Chinese atrocities, Sachs has also repeated COVID-19 disinformation by China by stating publicly that COVID-19 came out of "US lab biotechnology" Also known as "Jeffrey Sachs, China's Apologist in Chief"

 

One of the great flaws of social media is gullible people can be taken in by various "experts" simply on the basis of the supposed prestige of the interlocutor.

The Romans knew about it over 2000 years ago, they described it as argument ad verecundiam.

Facebook, Twitter and Instagram may have opened up new ways of talking to each other, it doesn't mean our critical abilities have improved since Rome ruled the world.

[Gweiloman]

Oh, I get it now. Any pro-western views are accepted as true, any opposing views are termed as apologists and anti-west. How silly of me to think that there are 2 sides to any dispute. 
 

The west is (always) right. Thanks for the life lesson. Just saw on DW that Ukraine has recaptured more territory in the south and north-east. Excellent news. The war will end soon, the US will supply cheap LNG to Europe, tremendous opportunity for Europe to wean itself off cheap gas, Putin will be tried as a war criminal, China’s economy will collapse soon and the world will be at peace again, with natural order restored. 
 

The future’s looking bright ????

[ThailandRyan]

2 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

Oh, I get it now. Any pro-western views are accepted as true, any opposing views are termed as apologists and anti-west. How silly of me to think that there are 2 sides to any dispute. 
 

The west is (always) right. Thanks for the life lesson. Just saw on DW that Ukraine has recaptured more territory in the south and north-east. Excellent news. The war will end soon, the US will supply cheap LNG to Europe, tremendous opportunity for Europe to wean itself off cheap gas, Putin will be tried as a war criminal, China’s economy will collapse soon and the world will be at peace again, with natural order restored. 
 

The future’s looking bright ????

I see your falling back into supporting the communist countries once again, even though their economies are failing and is one of the reasons Putin made his land grab.

[Gweiloman]

9 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

I see your falling back into supporting the communist countries once again, even though their economies are failing and is one of the reasons Putin made his land grab.

No no, not at all. Previously, I had no views on communism vs democracy. But I realise now that Communism is bad and by natural progression, all Communist regimes (Russia, China, North Korea, Cuba?, Laos etc) are bad and should undergo regime change so that they can be more like western countries.

 

I’m waiting with baited breath for the good ones to show these communists the right path to take.

[Lacessit]

3 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

Oh, I get it now. Any pro-western views are accepted as true, any opposing views are termed as apologists and anti-west. How silly of me to think that there are 2 sides to any dispute. 
 

The west is (always) right. Thanks for the life lesson. Just saw on DW that Ukraine has recaptured more territory in the south and north-east. Excellent news. The war will end soon, the US will supply cheap LNG to Europe, tremendous opportunity for Europe to wean itself off cheap gas, Putin will be tried as a war criminal, China’s economy will collapse soon and the world will be at peace again, with natural order restored. 
 

The future’s looking bright ????

I fail to see how viewing Putin as anything but a thief, poisoner and war criminal can be regarded as being balanced.

Perhaps you have forgotten your most ignorant post, when you stated the war in Ukraine would end immediately if the West stopped supplying weapons to Ukraine.

I am not sure if you are a Russian troll, or just morally vacuous. I'll save myself time by putting you on ignore. Goodbye.

 

[Gweiloman]

8 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I fail to see how viewing Putin as anything but a thief, poisoner and war criminal can be regarded as being balanced.

Perhaps you have forgotten your most ignorant post, when you stated the war in Ukraine would end immediately if the West stopped supplying weapons to Ukraine.

I am not sure if you are a Russian troll, or just morally vacuous. I'll save myself time by putting you on ignore. Goodbye.

 

Thanks ???? 

[ThailandRyan]

19 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

No no, not at all. Previously, I had no views on communism vs democracy. But I realise now that Communism is bad and by natural progression, all Communist regimes (Russia, China, North Korea, Cuba?, Laos etc) are bad and should undergo regime change so that they can be more like western countries.

 

I’m waiting with baited breath for the good ones to show these communists the right path to take.

Oh your sarcasm, it is just dripping from your post.  Shame you actually believe China, N. Korea, and Russia are prospering and not trying there best to seize others lands, while the western countries are far from trying to seize land, but are buying resources and assisting those countries.  But then you also think that the communist countries are far from war mongering and that is just reserved for the west....kudos.

[farmerjo]

10 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

I see your falling back into supporting the communist countries once again, even though their economies are failing and is one of the reasons Putin made his land grab.

Maybe it's long term vision,as they say they don't make land anymore.

If your major western customers are going green and when there set up they just cut off business your left in a hole.

The annexing of the four provinces provides compensation for this.

A power station to supply the area.

Agricultural land to supply food.

Remodeling landscape to encourage people to holiday at home.

Industrial manufacturing.

The problem is Ukraine is getting the rough end of the stick through no fault of their own,

 

 

 

[metisdead]

An off topic post has been reported and removed.

[coolcarer]

40 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

Oh, I get it now. Any pro-western views are accepted as true, any opposing views are termed as apologists and anti-west. How silly of me to think that there are 2 sides to any dispute. 
 

The west is (always) right. Thanks for the life lesson. Just saw on DW that Ukraine has recaptured more territory in the south and north-east. Excellent news. The war will end soon, the US will supply cheap LNG to Europe, tremendous opportunity for Europe to wean itself off cheap gas, Putin will be tried as a war criminal, China’s economy will collapse soon and the world will be at peace again, with natural order restored. 
 

The future’s looking bright ????

facts are accepted as true, not opinions. ignore the facts ignore the truth. Your hero Sach’s has been promoting lies and deception. 

[placnx]

23 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

It depends. Who was driving the expansion of NATO? (no need to answer, just a rhetorical question). Russia has protested for years, this is a redline for Russia. This is just another example of the proxy wars the collective west like to engage in.

In light of what's happened to Ukraine, Poland and others are very happy that they could join NATO. Russia's autocratic habit and imperial tendencies are the problem.

[placnx]

23 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

As you said, Russia shut down their own pipelines and thus did not need to bomb them.. I guess this is as easily done as turning a valve or something like that. No need to engage in a dangerous situation such as planting huge amounts of explosives on 4 different pipelines. Begs the question then of who might have have done such an irresponsible act. Cui bono and only one nation comes out on top.

Sabotaging the pipelines is Putin's way of sending a message to threaten pipelines and other undersea infrastructure in Baltic and North Sea, Europipe 1 and Baltic Pipe, for example.

[placnx]

23 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

 

 

Yes, the war can also be probably stopped the way you all suggested. However, it’s naive to think that will happen. So the war will continue and Europe (and probably Russia as well) will continue to suffer. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face lol. 

Putin doesn't care about his own people and how many "volunteers" may die in his Ukraine adventure.

[placnx]

22 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

I agree with your assessment.
 

Am I right in saying that you don’t believe the continued expansion of NATO eastwards was an existential threat to Russia? NATO was after all, created to combat Soviet aggression.

NATO expansion is inconvenient for Putin since it is an obstacle to reestablishing the Soviet Empire.

[Wobblybob]

23 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

 

 

Yes, the war can also be probably stopped the way you all suggested. However, it’s naive to think that will happen. So the war will continue and Europe (and probably Russia as well) will continue to suffer. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face lol. 

The only people that can stop this war are the people that started it, if Russia stops fighting and moves out of Ukraine the war will stop, but if the Ukraine stop fighting they will lose their country and their lives, so Ukraine does not have a choice.

[placnx]

10 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Today's statement from Minister of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine

 

Those who propose Ukraine to give up on its people and land — presumably not to hurt Putin’s bruised ego or to save Ukraine from suffering — must stop using word “peace” as an euphemism to “let Russians murder and rape thousands more innocent Ukrainians, and grab more land”.

 

Ukraine has no need to join NATO to kick the terrorists out.

If this war continues as it's going now, Ukraine will have earned its place of honor at the NATO table. Will Hungary stand in the way?

[placnx]

10 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

True, not sure how that will work with the lend lease agreement now in play since 1st Oct for weapons from the US allowing Ukraine’s military to access a host of new resources in addition to the normal aid US gives.

 

This Ukraine joining of NATO announcement is in my opinion a red herring, just a message to Putin that talks are over. After all, back in early March at the beginning of the war Zelensky publicly stated that Ukraine will not become a member of NATO and offered that as a peace deal to Putin, this was ignored by the Kremlin.

 

President Zelensky: 'Ukraine won't join NATO to stop the war with Russia'

 

As we all know Putin's invasion is nothing to do with NATO and all to do with land grab.

Zelensky's NATO move could be considered a response to the fake referendum.

[Bkk Brian]

7 minutes ago, placnx said:

If this war continues as it's going now, Ukraine will have earned its place of honor at the NATO table. Will Hungary stand in the way?

Hungary and Turkey unfortunately, Finland and Sweden are still waiting for them to sign the acceptance in to NATO

[placnx]

3 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

You wrote “As we all know Putin's invasion is nothing to do with NATO and all to do with land grab.”

 

There are some very well respected experts, Prof. Jeffrey Sachs of Columbia University among them, who holds the opposite view. Unfortunately, I’m unable to link his video as it’s against forum rules. If you are interested, search Bloomberg.

In the Yeltsin era Sachs was a promoter of giving Russians vouchers representing shares in state enterprises. People sold out cheap, and this led to the rise of the oligarchs and of Putin. 

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1 hour ago, farmerjo said:

Maybe it's long term vision,as they say they don't make land anymore.

If your major western customers are going green and when there set up they just cut off business your left in a hole.

The annexing of the four provinces provides compensation for this.

A power station to supply the area.

Agricultural land to supply food.

Remodeling landscape to encourage people to holiday at home.

Industrial manufacturing.

The problem is Ukraine is getting the rough end of the stick through no fault of their own,

 

 

 

Ya think Russia is getting the lollipop end?