TM86?

[Norlund]

7 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Thanks, but the arguments are facetious and so easy to debunk.

No you do not. 
If you are in Thailand you must have been given “permission to stay” based on entering on a Non-B or a Non-O based on being married to a Thai national, there may be other visa entries that permit work but these are the 2 main ones

YES YOU DO. 

I believe that the desire to have a "Permission To Stay" is much greater than the knowledge you may have about Thailand.

 

"A foreigner is eligible to apply for a work permit as long as he has a non-immigrant visa or a resident visa, has an available employer who will provide documents for work permit, and the occupation he will perform is not prohibited to foreigners."

 

https://www.thaiembassy.com/thailand/work-permit-requirements

[Norlund]

12 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You should really read your own post. I responded to what you wrote, not what you imagined you wrote

 

however in respect of Thailand a 10 second search comes up with this titled “Extension of temporary stay under Section 15”
 

https://www.immigration.go.th/en/?page_id=2324

 

so are you trying to deliberately misrepresent the truth? Or are your searches incompetent?

Do you know what section 15 is about? If you do not know you can read this link. 

 

https://www.samuiforsale.com/law-texts/immigration-act.html

[sometimewoodworker]

14 minutes ago, Norlund said:

YES YOU DO. 

I believe that the desire to have a "Permission To Stay" is much greater than the knowledge you may have about Thailand.

 

"A foreigner is eligible to apply for a work permit as long as he has a non-immigrant visa or a resident visa, has an available employer who will provide documents for work permit, and the occupation he will perform is not prohibited to foreigners."

 

https://www.thaiembassy.com/thailand/work-permit-requirements

Once again you are categorically wrong. You are basing your protestations on a site that says

Quote

Copyright © 2021 ThaiEmbassy.com. This is NOT the official website of the Thai Embassy. 

Also you are insisting that the English wording must be taken as the ruling and only interpretation despite the caveat “ The translation of this document is for information purposes only.” This is on all guidance 

[Norlund]

There are a number of websites that prove that you need a Non Immigrant Visa when applying for a work permit. And this is one of them.

"Step 2: Obtaining the Thai Work Permit

Employee provided work permit documents:

• Passport - copies of every page. Each copy must be signed by employee.
• Non-Immigrant Visa
• Departure Card TM.6
• Education degree (signed copy) *
• Transcript (signed copy) *
• Certificates or licenses held by applicant (signed copy) *
• CV or Resume - describe in detail the applicant's past positions, duties, performance, length and place of employment.
• Photos, three (3) in quantities which are 5 x 6 centimeters in size (not passport photos) with full face and taken wearing business attire (no hat and some jurisdictions require suit and tie). This must have been taken within six (6) months before the application for the Thai work permit.
• Marriage Certificate (if married to Thai National). This includes the original and signed photocopies. Also include wife's Thai ID card, birth certificates of children, and household registration."

https://www.siam-legal.com/Business-in-Thailand/thailand-work-permit.php

[sometimewoodworker]

7 minutes ago, Norlund said:

Do you know what section 15 is about?

Yes.

 

[Norlund]

This is from the DLT which says you need a visa to apply for a Thai drivers license. 

Yes I know you are going to say this is a bunch of lies too. 

 

N CASE OF FOREIGNER RENEW THAI DRIVING LICENCE [BY YOURSELF]
FROM TWO-YEAR (DRIVING LICENCE) TO FIVE-YEARS DRIVING LICENCE

HAVE TO PREPARE THE DOCUMENTS AS FOLLOW

1. 1
   ORIGINAL TWO-YEAR THAI DRIVING LICENCE
2. 2
   PASSPORT WITH NON-IMMIGRANT VISA (ORIGINAL AND PHOTO COPY)
3. 3
   ORIGINAL PRESENT RESIDENT ADDRESS IN THAILAND CERTIFY FROM EMBASSY / IMMIGRATION BUREAU (VALID FOR 1 YEAR) OR WORK PERMIT (WITH PRESENT RESIDENT ADDRESS IDENTIFIED) AND ORIGINAL PHOTO COPY OR WORK PERMIT WITH ORIGINAL AND PHOTO COPY
4. 4
   ORIGINAL MEDICAL CERTIFICATE (5 DISEASES FORM) FROM CLINIC OR HOSPITAL (VALID FOR 1 MONTH)

https://www.dlt.go.th/en/two-year-license/

[sometimewoodworker]

1 minute ago, Norlund said:

There are a number of websites that prove that you need a Non Immigrant Visa when applying for a work permit. And this is one of them.

There are a number of websites that use the shorthand wording that you need a VISA none of them bother to use the correct “in Thailand you must have been given “permission to stay” based on entering on a Non-B or a Non-O based on being married to a Thai”

[Norlund]

4 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Yes.

 

Then you know it has nothing to do with what we are discussing here.

[sometimewoodworker]

32 minutes ago, Norlund said:

This is from the DLT which says you need a visa to apply for a Thai drivers license. 

Yes I know you are going to say this is a bunch of lies too. 

No it is a misstatement of the correct “in Thailand you must have been given “permission to stay” based on entering on a Non-O or a Non-immigrant long stay (usually 1 year) visa

[sometimewoodworker]

3 minutes ago, Norlund said:

Then you know it has nothing to do with what we are discussing here.

No it proves your deliberately obfuscating the facts

[Norlund]

16 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

There are a number of websites that use the shorthand wording that you need a VISA none of them bother to use the correct “in Thailand you must have been given “permission to stay” based on entering on a Non-B or a Non-O based on being married to a Thai”

Do you think that Immigration Office is lazy too?
 

https://www.immigration.go.th/en/?p=14714

[Norlund]

18 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

No it is a misstatement of the correct “in Thailand you must have been given “permission to stay” based on entering on a Non-O or a Non-immigrant long stay (usually 1 year) 

So you mean that ALL government offices in Thailand don't know what they are doing? So ALL the evidence you refuse to accept on that basis?

[sometimewoodworker]

@Norlund you are welcome to continue posting the English translations of the originating Thai language, there is no basis in fact of your total incomprehension of the point that a Thai translator uses the shorthand “visa” instead of the accurate “permit to stay” or “extension of stay”

 

It seems that you are also misunderstanding the fact that Thailand is possibly unique in splitting the visa out from the permit to stay. All Thai visas have  an “enter before date” after which they expire or become invalid. In most countries this is the last date you can stay in that country. Thailand is different in that you are often given permission to stay beyond the expiration date of your enter before, visa 

 

 

[Norlund]

3 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

@Norlund you are welcome to continue posting the English translations of the originating Thai language, there is no basis in fact of your total incomprehension of the point that a Thai translator uses the shorthand “visa” instead of the accurate “permit to stay” or “extension of stay”

 

It seems that you are also misunderstanding the fact that Thailand is possibly unique in splitting the visa out from the permit to stay. All Thai visas have  an “enter before date” after which they expire or become invalid. In most countries this is the last date you can stay in that country. Thailand is different in that you are often given permission to stay beyond the expiration date of your enter before, visa 

 

 

Rubbish and you know it. 

[DrJack54]

9 minutes ago, Norlund said:

So ALL the evidence you refuse to accept on that basis?

I'm almost embarrassed for you. 

You are twisted up in terminology.

 

If I bar chat with random guy and he states "I live here on retirement visa".

I don't correct him.

What he most likely means is ..

"I live in Thailand on extensions based on retirement" 

 

Those extensions could be from a non O retirement or non O-A.

Certainly not visa extension.

Visas cannot be extended.

The permission of stay can be extended. Very different.

 

Thai immigration even use terms such as "Retirement visa extension" 

No such thing but that has been pointed out by several knowledgeable posters and I posted earlier you are playing games.

If you have a genuine question such as which form to use or help with obtaining a non O and subsequent extensions based on retirement or marriage then by all means ask. 

You will be given sound advice.

Playing the silly card does not help.

Just making yourself look ridiculous. 

 

[Norlund]

When applying for a Resident Permit, one of the requirements is 3 consecutive years with a Non Immigrant Visa. But it is alleged that the Immigration Office and other public offices are so ignorant and lazy that it is actually 3 consecutive years with an "Extension Of Stay".

 

"1. An applicant’s qualifications A foreign national may qualify to apply for a residence permit if he/she 1.1 holds a passport of his/her current nationality, which was granted a NON-IMMIGRANT VISA and has been permitted to stay in the Kingdom ofThailand on the basis of one year visa extension for the total of at least 3 consecutive years up to the application submission date."

 

https://www.immigration.go.th/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/2.2คำแนะนำอังกฤษ-2565-legal.pdf

[Maestro]

On 11/13/2022 at 1:13 PM, Norlund said:

The forms TM86 and TM87 are not the issue here. The issue is how to change a visa you do not have. 

No visa is being changed. The title of the form TM8.9 is wrong, both the original Thai text and the English translation.

 

The correct title would probably be "Application for non-immigrant visa category O"

 

The issuance of this visa is subject to specific criteria and conditions which must be met by the applicant, as outlined in the guide for this form.

[Maestro]

On 11/13/2022 at 1:08 PM, Norlund said:

You enter on a tourist visa. A visa you loose the second you step outside the passport controll. So how is it possible to use TM86 when you don't have a visa?

You don't lose the visa when you step outside passport control at the point of entry into Thailand. The visa is still there in passport. If it was for a single entry, it was perhaps crossed with the text "USED", perhaps not, but either way it has been used for the purpose for which it was issued, ie for travel to Thailand. It is no longer valid for that purpose.

[Norlund]

12 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

I'm almost embarrassed for you. 

You are twisted up in terminology.

 

If I bar chat with random guy and he states "I live here on retirement visa".

I don't correct him.

What he most likely means is ..

"I live in Thailand on extensions based on retirement" 

 

Those extensions could be from a non O retirement or non O-A.

Certainly not visa extension.

Visas cannot be extended.

The permission of stay can be extended. Very different.

 

Thai immigration even use terms such as "Retirement visa extension" 

No such thing but that has been pointed out by several knowledgeable posters and I posted earlier you are playing games.

If you have a genuine question such as which form to use or help with obtaining a non O and subsequent extensions based on retirement or marriage then by all means ask. 

You will be given sound advice.

Playing the silly card does not help.

Just making yourself look ridiculous. 

 

I have proven that it is a VISA. It is only you who refuse to accept the facts by claiming that public officials are ignorant and lazy. Even the Immigration Office you refuse to believe. Where you have this nonsense with a "Permission To Stay" from could be interesting to know.

[Norlund]

Just now, Maestro said:

You don't lose the visa when you step outside passport control at the point of entry into Thailand. The visa is still there in passport. If it was for a single entry, it was perhaps crossed with the text "USED", perhaps not, but either way it has been used for the purpose for which it was issued, ie for travel to Thailand. It is no longer valid for that purpose.

Wrong. The VISA is the reason why you can stay in Thailand. 

[Norlund]

13 minutes ago, Maestro said:

No visa is being changed. The title of the form TM8.9 is wrong, both the original Thai text and the English translation.

 

The correct title would probably be "Application for non-immigrant visa category O"

 

The issuance of this visa is subject to specific criteria and conditions which must be met by the applicant, as outlined in the guide for this form.

Be my guest please tell the Immigration Office the correct heading. 

[DrJack54]

10 minutes ago, Norlund said:

I have proven that it is a VISA. It is only you who refuse to accept the facts by claiming that public officials are ignorant and lazy. Even the Immigration Office you refuse to believe. Where you have this nonsense with a "Permission To Stay" from could be interesting to know.

So ridiculous it's hard to even reply.

First up it's not just me ....Every post from experts such as ubonjoe and others have tried to point out where you are Wrong.

 

Keep sidestepping the facts and hopefully a moderator will close the thread. 

[Norlund]

This link comes from the Ministry Of Foreign Affairs in Thailand. And here there is proof that it is a VISA. But then again, these are probably also ignorant and lazy so when it says VISA, it should actually be "Permission To Stay".

 

https://www.mfa.go.th/en/page/issuance-of-visa?menu=5e1ff6e057b01e001a03f7d3

[Maestro]

On 11/13/2022 at 1:33 PM, Norlund said:

I don't need a permission of stay I need a tourist visa. Please read TM86 and you will se. 

Yes, the TM.86 form has a field labelled "kind of visa"

 

Another post in this topic already mentioned that forms often condense the text, like some sort of shorthand. Here, "kind of visa" askes for the type of visa with which you arrived in Thailand. It does not ask for a visa that is still valid for travel to Thailand on the date of your submission of the TM.86.

[Norlund]

This is a video I posted earlier in this thread, but I think some people don't fully understand the content. And in this video he explains what is the Difference Between a Thai Visa, Extension, and Permit to Stay? 

 

This is an American lawyer who has a Thai citizenship. There are videos of him that this forum itself has posted so his credibility should be something this forum accepts.
 

 

[DrJack54]

3 minutes ago, Norlund said:

This is an American lawyer who has a Thai citizenship. There are videos of him that this forum itself has posted so his credibility should be something this forum accepts

News flash.

Most regard that firm and videos as laughable.

Some folk post them along with Facebook stuff.

Quite funny really. 

[Norlund]

12 minutes ago, Maestro said:

Yes, the TM.86 form has a field labelled "kind of visa"

 

Another post in this topic already mentioned that forms often condense the text, like some sort of shorthand. Here, "kind of visa" askes for the type of visa with which you arrived in Thailand. It does not ask for a visa that is still valid for travel to Thailand on the date of your submission of the TM.86.

The post "Kind of visa" is the VISA you have at the moment you apply for a Non Immigrant Visa. 

 

Frankly, it is a very poor argument that public offices and public officials are "sloppy" with the use of language just to fit their version of reality.

[Maestro]

On 11/13/2022 at 2:02 PM, Norlund said:

I have been told over and over on FB and on fora online that you loose your visa the moment you pass the officer at the passport control. Are they all wrong?

Yes, they are all wrong. When they say "lose your visa", but they really mean to say that the visa has lost its validity (unless the visa was valid for more multiple trips to Thailand and the expiry date shown on the visa sticker has not yet passed). It is again some sort of shorthand.

[blackcab]

On 11/13/2022 at 12:43 PM, Norlund said:

The only logical explanation is that you don't loose your visa at the passport controll. 

 

The explanation is that your visa cannot be reused to enter Thailand (unless it is a multiple entry visa), however you are permitted to stay in Thailand for the time indicated on the ink stamp placed in your passport by the Thai immigration officer at your port of entry.

 

A TM86/TM87 is used to when you apply to extend the initial length of stay you have been granted by the immigration officer.

[Maestro]

On 11/13/2022 at 2:21 PM, Norlund said:

No it is not. Form TM86 is a form you fill out when you want to change a tourist visa to a Non Immigrant Visa. Or do you another idea for what this form is for?

The title of the form T.86 incorrectly says "APPLICATION FOR CHANGE OF VISA", whereas near the bottom it says correctly "I Wish to apply for a non-immigrant visa"