TM86?

[Norlund]

3 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

News flash.

Most regard that firm and videos as laughable.

Some folk post them along with Facebook stuff.

Quite funny really. 

Absolutely no facts do you accept. But how about providing evidence for what you claim. The only thing you and "your friends" come up with is how ignorant and sloppy Thai officials are and that they mean something completely different than what they write online. Do you really believe that <deleted>? Iff someone is laughing it would be the people who reads that nonsense. 

[Norlund]

7 minutes ago, Maestro said:

Yes, they are all wrong. When they say "lose your visa", but they really mean to say that the visa has lost its validity (unless the visa was valid for more multiple trips to Thailand and the expiry date shown on the visa sticker has not yet passed). It is again some sort of shorthand.

No they actually mean you have lost your visa and instead you have a "Permission To Stay". 

[Norlund]

7 minutes ago, Maestro said:

The title of the form T.86 incorrectly says "APPLICATION FOR CHANGE OF VISA", whereas near the bottom it says correctly "I Wish to apply for a non-immigrant visa"

Do you really believe that the Immigration Office writes "Change Of Visa" without meaning it? You should come up with something better than that.

[aussiexpat]

Just wasted 5 minutes of my life reading why the OP is on a mission for what I have no clue

 

Pretty simple, enter on visa exempt or tourist visa, apply for 90 day non-imm O visa, apply for 12 month extension..what is the OP arguing about?

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by aussiexpat

[Maestro]

11 minutes ago, Norlund said:

The post "Kind of visa" is the VISA you have at the moment you apply for a Non Immigrant Visa. 

 

Correct.  However, the "Kind of visa" the TM.86 asks about is not a question about just any of the many visas that may be in your passport, it is a reference specifically to the latest visa with which you arrived in Thailand prior to your application for a non-immigrant visa.

[Norlund]

11 minutes ago, blackcab said:

 

The explanation is that your visa cannot be reused to enter Thailand (unless it is a multiple entry visa), however you are permitted to stay in Thailand for the time indicated on the ink stamp placed in your passport by the Thai immigration officer at your port of entry.

 

A TM86/TM87 is used to when you apply to extend the initial length of stay you have been granted by the immigration officer.

When you enter Thailand on a Single Entry Visa you can leave the country as much as you please iff you have a Re Entry Permit Multiple Entry before the VISA expire.

 

The TM86 is what the heading says. Change of VISA.   

[Norlund]

5 minutes ago, aussiexpat said:

Just wasted 5 minutes of my life reading why the OP is on a mission for what I have no clue

 

Pretty simple, enter on visa exempt or tourist visa, apply for 90 day non-imm O visa, apply for 12 month extension..what is the OP arguing about?

 

Iff you mean an extension of the 90-days Non Immigrant Visa I fully agree with you. 

[aussiexpat]

1 minute ago, Norlund said:

Iff you mean an extension of the 90-days Non Immigrant Visa I fully agree with you. 

It's what everyone has been telling you for 4 pages of posts lol

[Dan O]

On 11/13/2022 at 8:05 PM, Norlund said:

It says "Change Of Visa". And that means you MUST have a visa. Whatever that visa is. 

you're correct, so you should not come to thailand because you can not seem to grasp logical explanations.  Sorry I can not read 5 pages of this nonsense

 

you have a stamp in your passport based of the visa type you applied for when you came to Thailand. Tourist visa, visa exempt ext..... each type of visa grants you a specific amount of time you can stay in the country before you either have to leave or get an extension of time. Either of those time frames is called "permission to stay" and printed on the stamp in your passport and is based on the type of visa originally stamped in your passport. When you use the TM86 or TM87 you are requesting immigration to grant you the option to receive "permission to stay" under whenever new visa type you are wanting to change to and be given the "permission to stay' that the new visa type allows.

[Norlund]

2 minutes ago, Maestro said:

Correct.  However, the "Kind of visa" the TM.86 asks about is not a question about just any of the many visas that may be in your passport, it is a reference specifically to the latest visa with which you arrived in Thailand prior to your application for a non-immigrant visa.

It is what I said. You arrive with a 60-days Tourist Visa. After 60 days you CHANGE the Tourist Visa to a Non Immigrant Visa. And then you Extend the Non immigrant Visa for 1 year more. "Permission To Stay" and "Extension Of Stay" do not exist. 

[DrJack54]

2 minutes ago, Norlund said:

When you enter Thailand on a Single Entry Visa you can leave the country as much as you please iff you have a Re Entry Permit Multiple Entry before the VISA expire

Straight up ridiculous.

You enter Thailand on a single entry visa such as tourist visa then you are stamped in with a permission of stay.

Some refer to as a permit of stay. 

In the TV example the stamp allows 60 day stay. 

You could obtain an extension 30 days .

If married you could could obtain another extension 60 days based on visit wife. 

The visa was "used" the day you entered Thailand. 

 

 

[Norlund]

3 minutes ago, Dan O said:

you're correct, so you should not come to thailand because you can not seem to grasp logical explanations.  Sorry I can not read 5 pages of this nonsense

 

you have a stamp in your passport based of the visa type you applied for when you came to Thailand. Tourist visa, visa exempt ext..... each type of visa grants you a specific amount of time you can stay in the country before you either have to leave or get an extension of time. Either of those time frames is called "permission to stay" and printed on the stamp in your passport and is based on the type of visa originally stamped in your passport. When you use the TM86 or TM87 you are requesting immigration to grant you the option to receive "permission to stay" under whenever new visa type you are wanting to change to and be given the "permission to stay' that the new visa type allows.

The "time frames" are NOT called "Permission To Stay". What you have is a VISA. That is why you can change your Tourist Visa to a Non Immigrant Visa at the Immigration Office. Every document you need in Thailand like a Thai drivers license, a Yellow Book, a Pink ID-card, a Thai bank account, Resident Permit, buy a car/motorbike in your own name and proof of residence from the Immigration Office is based on a Non Immigrant Visa. Why is this so difficult to understand? 

[Maestro]

12 minutes ago, Norlund said:

No they actually mean you have lost your visa and instead you have a "Permission To Stay". 

Well, I don't know what they meant to say, but I can assure you that you have not lost your visa and instead been given a permission to stay.

 

Just look at your passport. The visa you used to travel to Thailand is still there, in your passport, no longer valid for travel if it was valid for a single entry. Upon your arrival in Thailand and following verification by an immigration official that you qualified for entry into Thailand, a stamp was placed in your passport indication the arrival date and the expiration date of your permission to stay.

 

The permission to stay you were given on your arrival did not replace or substitute your visa, but the length of the permission to stay was based on the type of visa with which you arrived.

[Norlund]

17 minutes ago, aussiexpat said:

It's what everyone has been telling you for 4 pages of posts lol

Then you need to read what they write one more time. 

[Norlund]

13 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Straight up ridiculous.

You enter Thailand on a single entry visa such as tourist visa then you are stamped in with a permission of stay.

Some refer to as a permit of stay. 

In the TV example the stamp allows 60 day stay. 

You could obtain an extension 30 days .

If married you could could obtain another extension 60 days based on visit wife. 

The visa was "used" the day you entered Thailand. 

 

 

Don't you know what a Re Entry Permit is? Maybe you should ask your friends the experts. 

[Norlund]

5 minutes ago, Maestro said:

Well, I don't know what they meant to say, but I can assure you that you have not lost your visa and instead been given a permission to stay.

 

Just look at your passport. The visa you used to travel to Thailand is still there, in your passport, no longer valid for travel if it was valid for a single entry. Upon your arrival in Thailand and following verification by an immigration official that you qualified for entry into Thailand, a stamp was placed in your passport indication the arrival date and the expiration date of your permission to stay.

 

The permission to stay you were given on your arrival did not replace or substitute your visa, but the length of the permission to stay was based on the type of visa with which you arrived.

That's exactly what I'm saying. 

[Maestro]

41 minutes ago, Norlund said:

It is what I said. You arrive with a 60-days Tourist Visa. After 60 days you CHANGE the Tourist Visa to a Non Immigrant Visa. And then you Extend the Non immigrant Visa for 1 year more. "Permission To Stay" and "Extension Of Stay" do not exist.

Are you perhaps mixing up "Visa" "with permission to stay"?

 

Quote

 

You arrive with a 60-days Tourist Visa

 

 

 

You arrive with a tourist visa valid for travel to Thailand before the expiration date of the visa. I believe this expiration date is 90 days or three months after the issue date of the visa.

 

Quote

 

After 60 days you CHANGE the Tourist Visa to a Non Immigrant Visa.

 

 

 

After 60 days (I presume you mean after arrival in Thailand) you do not change the Tourist visa to a non-immigrant visa. A certain minimum number of days — which can vary from one immigration office to the next — prior to the expiration date of of your permission to stay, if you meet the requirements you can apply for a non-immigrant visa.

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Maestro
corrected a typo

[Maestro]

15 minutes ago, Norlund said:

Don't you know what a Re Entry Permit is? Maybe you should ask your friends the experts. 

I know I am not replying to the poster whom you are asking whether he knows what a re-entry permit is but this topic is not about re-entry permits, is it? If I remember correctly, the subject of re-entry permits was first brought up by you. Anyway, let's all remain on topic and leave the re-entry permit out of it

[blackcab]

1 hour ago, Norlund said:

When you enter Thailand on a Single Entry Visa you can leave the country as much as you please iff you have a Re Entry Permit Multiple Entry before the VISA expire.

 

The TM86 is what the heading says. Change of VISA.   

 

I would encourage you to take the matter up with immigration directly and explain to them how they can better correct themselves, either in terms of translation or else reworking the entire visa and extension system so that it accords with your understanding.

[Maestro]

3 hours ago, Norlund said:

This is a video I posted earlier in this thread, but I think some people don't fully understand the content...

Even immigration officials sometimes say or write "visa" when they mean what legally is called "permission to stay", but over time the readers of this forum are mostly able to guess what is meant when a particular term is used incorrectly and we generally make allowance for these imprecisions and do not stir up a fuss. It gets serious, though, when somebody suffers a substantial disadvantage because of a misunderstanding and I have seen at least one such case.

 

In this topic, where you sought clarification on the use of the form TM.86, you justifiably emphasised the importance of the correct use of the terms and I agree that they are not always easy to comprehend.

 

Even lawyers are sometimes prone to giving a wrong interpretation, for example in the video to which you linked at 1:20

Quote

"Anytime you're a foreign national in any country that is not your home country, the type of document that you are obtaining in order to provide lawful status in that country is a visa."

At that point, I stopped watching and listening. 

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Maestro
corrected a typo

[Norlund]

7 hours ago, Maestro said:

Are you perhaps mixing up "Visa" "with permission to stay"?

 

You arrive with a tourist visa valid for travel to Thailand before the expiration date of the visa. I believe this expiration date is 90 days or three months after the issue date of the visa.

 

After 60 days (I presume you mean after arrival in Thailand) you do not change the Tourist visa to a non-immigrant visa. A certain minimum number of days — which can vary from one immigration office to the next — prior to the expiration date of of your permission to stay, if you meet the requirements you can apply for a non-immigrant visa.

 

Wrong. You change your VISA. Because technically the Immigration Office does not issue visas although with a TM87 you can apply for a Non Imm,igrant Visa because Immigration considers this also a conversion.

[Norlund]

7 hours ago, Maestro said:

I know I am not replying to the poster whom you are asking whether he knows what a re-entry permit is but this topic is not about re-entry permits, is it? If I remember correctly, the subject of re-entry permits was first brought up by you. Anyway, let's all remain on topic and leave the re-entry permit out of it

The reason why a Re Entry Permit came up in the discussion was that it proves that you have a VISA.

[Norlund]

6 hours ago, blackcab said:

 

I would encourage you to take the matter up with immigration directly and explain to them how they can better correct themselves, either in terms of translation or else reworking the entire visa and extension system so that it accords with your understanding.

It is totally unnecessary because what the Immigration Office writes on its website is very simple and understandable. The problem may be that some people are unable to read it or perhaps have major problems accepting it because it does not fit into their view of the world.

[Norlund]

5 hours ago, Maestro said:

Even immigration officials sometimes say or write "visa" when they mean what legally is called "permission to stay", but over time the readers of this forum are mostly able to guess what is meant when a particular term is used incorrectly and we generally make allowance for these imprecisions and do not stir up a fuss. It gets serious, though, when somebody suffers a substantial disadvantage because of a misunderstanding and I have seen at least one such case.

 

In this topic, where you sought clarification on the use of the form TM.86, you justifiably emphasised the importance of the correct use of the terms and I agree that they are not always easy to comprehend.

 

Even lawyers are sometimes prone to giving a wrong interpretation, for example in the video to which you linked at 1:20

At that point, I stopped watching and listening. 

 

I see it as pure desperation when someone claimes that public authorities in Thailand write something they don't mean on their websites and that you have to guess what they really mean. You also claim that lawyers, and especially an American lawyer with 30 years in Thailand and who has Thai citizenship, do not know what they are talking about.

 

This must be the perfect "tool" to deny ALL THE FACTS in a discussion. Sorry this is just getting way too stupid.

[Dan O]

11 hours ago, Norlund said:

The "time frames" are NOT called "Permission To Stay". What you have is a VISA. That is why you can change your Tourist Visa to a Non Immigrant Visa at the Immigration Office. Every document you need in Thailand like a Thai drivers license, a Yellow Book, a Pink ID-card, a Thai bank account, Resident Permit, buy a car/motorbike in your own name and proof of residence from the Immigration Office is based on a Non Immigrant Visa. Why is this so difficult to understand? 

Great question that you have to ask yourself why you can't seem to grasp the terminology. I think you just want to argue for attention. 

[blackcab]

9 hours ago, Norlund said:

It is totally unnecessary because what the Immigration Office writes on its website is very simple and understandable. The problem may be that some people are unable to read it or perhaps have major problems accepting it because it does not fit into their view of the world.

 

Fortunately all of those people, you included, have the ultimate solution. You can use this forum.

 

Thank you for contributing and continuing to make aseannow.com the number 1 place to discuss Thailand immigration issues.

[Maestro]

17 hours ago, Norlund said:

Frankly, it is a very poor argument that public offices and public officials are "sloppy" with the use of language just to fit their version of reality.

Frankly, I am grateful that Thai Immigration uses English translations, even though not always completely accurate, for some documents. I admire foreigners who are fluent in reading, writing and speaking Thai, but I would be totally lost without the possibility of using English. That sometimes also the Thai text is inaccurate is another matter, of course.

[Maestro]

On 11/14/2022 at 3:57 PM, Norlund said:

Do you really believe that the Immigration Office writes "Change Of Visa" without meaning it?...

Yes.

[Maestro]

19 hours ago, Norlund said:

Wrong. You change your VISA. Because technically the Immigration Office does not issue visas although with a TM87 you can apply for a Non Imm,igrant Visa because Immigration considers this also a conversion.

It is a fact that immigration offices in Thailand issue non-immigrant visas to qualified applicants. The technique used for this is beside the point.

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by Maestro
Fixed a formatting problem

[Maestro]

The question in the OP has been answered. This topic is now closed.