Antony Blinken in Jerusalem: Urgent steps needed for calm

[Scott]

 

US Secretary of State Antony Blinken has called for Israel and the Palestinians to take "urgent steps" to restore calm amid escalating violence.

Speaking in Jerusalem, Mr Blinken reiterated US support for a two-state solution as "the best way" to bring security to the two sides.

Israel's new government opposes the creation of a Palestinian state.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-64423270

[RichardColeman]

2 hours ago, Scott said:

to take "urgent steps" to restore calm amid escalating violence.

Islamic violence all over the world again - not just Israel

[bangon04]

We cannot criticise the policies of the State of Israel because we are immediately labelled "anti-semitic" if we do. The US will protect the State of Israel at all costs.

Edited January 31, 2023 by bangon04

[Cory1848]

12 hours ago, bangon04 said:

We cannot criticise the policies of the State of Israel because we are immediately labelled "anti-semitic" if we do. The US will protect the State of Israel at all costs.

Well, not always. I have many good friends in the US who are themselves Jewish and who are both appalled and saddened by Israeli policies. Plenty of people are capable of looking at the situation with open eyes. What might be antisemitic, however, is holding Israel to a higher standard -- being laser-focused on mistakes made by Israel while not giving a hoot about worse mistakes made by other governments. In the end, Israel is just another country, and like other countries it often behaves badly.

[hotchilli]

Waring nations that have been fighting for centuries... 

[Hanaguma]

12 hours ago, Cory1848 said:

Well, not always. I have many good friends in the US who are themselves Jewish and who are both appalled and saddened by Israeli policies. Plenty of people are capable of looking at the situation with open eyes. What might be antisemitic, however, is holding Israel to a higher standard -- being laser-focused on mistakes made by Israel while not giving a hoot about worse mistakes made by other governments. In the end, Israel is just another country, and like other countries it often behaves badly.

Sadly, to far too many people Israel is not "just another country", it is a target.  How many other countries get told that they do not have any right to exist?  That are threatened with extermination?  I don't condone every excess of the Israeli police and military, but there is a certain level of justified paranoia in their behavior. 

[JonnyF]

I am sure both sides will stop the violence immediately now that Mr Blinken has educated them on the "best way".

[Saanim]

21 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Sadly, to far too many people Israel is not "just another country", it is a target.  How many other countries get told that they do not have any right to exist?  That are threatened with extermination?  I don't condone every excess of the Israeli police and military, but there is a certain level of justified paranoia in their behavior. 

I do not know who has said what about an "extermination", do you? What I know is that for more than 70 years the original population of Palestine is being evicted, their homes and centuries old olive orchards are daily destroyed, flattened.  That fact has been for years many times condemned by UN, numerous resolutions.  One of them (perhaps one in hundreds) was also supported exceptionally by US - at the end of Obama presidency.

 

The country is named officially by UN as "Occupied Palestinian Territories". (Assuming that the UN is not controlled and ruled by by islamists, is it?)  

 

Numerous reports by independent rapporteurs, with no further regards and actions.  And daily reported deaths of Palestinians by Israeli soldiers.

 

The international community (whatever it does mean) do nearly nothing against it as it (the I.C.) does in other cases with a huge outrage. That this unsolved situation is bringing daily more and more grave problems is surely inevitable.   

 

Just calling a spade a spade.

 

[Purdey]

I have never been certain why the Americans pour billions into Israel. From what i read, terrorism was used to create the state (e.g. the bombing of the St. David Hotel). I would have thought America would not support it. Is it because they are white? 

Those of Jewish faith are just 2.4% of the USA. Other, larger, yet colored, minorities get almost nothing in comparison.

 

If it is an independent state, good. Why can't it survive independently?

Constantly at war with its neighbors, it is the cuckoo in the nest. The Arabs were there before the influx from Europe. Perhaps they deserve their own country? 

 

i realize this is a sensitive subject but i don't understand why the people who were there first are not allowed a country, however small 

 

[Hanaguma]

1 minute ago, Purdey said:

I have never been certain why the Americans pour billions into Israel. From what i read, terrorism was used to create the state (e.g. the bombing of the St. David Hotel). I would have thought America would not support it. Is it because they are white? 

Those of Jewish faith are just 2.4% of the USA. Other, larger, yet colored, minorities get almost nothing in comparison.

 

If it is an independent state, good. Why can't it survive independently?

Constantly at war with its neighbors, it is the cuckoo in the nest. The Arabs were there before the influx from Europe. Perhaps they deserve their own country? 

 

i realize this is a sensitive subject but i don't understand why the people who were there first are not allowed a country, however small 

 

The US pours billions into a LOT of places- Jordan and Egypt together get as much money as Israel, for example. Ukraine is getting a ridiculous amount IMHO, but that is not relevant here. One might ask why Arab countries don't do the same for the Palestinians- more than 75% of aid comes from western/European countries. Seems the Arabs and Israelis can at least agree on that one point- that the Palestinians are a pain in the neck. 

 

And the "who was there first" argument is a non starter. Both groups have been there for centuries, and part of larger empires (from Roman to Ottoman) for centuries as well.  I guess two large differences are that: Israel is a functioning democracy (and the surrounding states are not), and that Israel respects human and minority rights far more than the surrounding nations. Try being Jewish or LGBT in Egypt or Saudi Arabia!

[Saanim]

Perhaps, a.o., it's worse to learn how Swedish Count Folke Bernadotte - who rescued thousands of Jews from Hitler's KZ (White Buses), then after the war being chosen by UN as peace negotiator at Palestine - how he ended up on his mission.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folke_Bernadotte

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-s-forgotten-hero-the-assassination-of-count-bernadotte-and-the-death-of-peace-934094.html

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 hour ago, Purdey said:

I have never been certain why the Americans pour billions into Israel. From what i read, terrorism was used to create the state (e.g. the bombing of the St. David Hotel). I would have thought America would not support it. Is it because they are white? 

 

Both the USA and Israel took up arms to persuade the British to leave before they became Countries  , they do have that in common . Also Jews are not predominately White , 

[Saanim]

1 hour ago, Hanaguma said:

The US pours billions into a LOT of places- Jordan and Egypt together get as much money as Israel, for example. Ukraine is getting a ridiculous amount IMHO, but that is not relevant here. One might ask why Arab countries don't do the same for the Palestinians- more than 75% of aid comes from western/European countries. Seems the Arabs and Israelis can at least agree on that one point- that the Palestinians are a pain in the neck. 

 

And the "who was there first" argument is a non starter. Both groups have been there for centuries, and part of larger empires (from Roman to Ottoman) for centuries as well.  I guess two large differences are that: Israel is a functioning democracy (and the surrounding states are not), and that Israel respects human and minority rights far more than the surrounding nations. Try being Jewish or LGBT in Egypt or Saudi Arabia!

Why not? Try e.g. in Iran, always ostracized  by Israel,  over 100,000 Jews years ago, now much less, however:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/despite-tension-between-iran-and-israel-irans-jewish-minority-feels-at-home 

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 hour ago, Purdey said:

The Arabs were there before the influx from Europe. Perhaps they deserve their own country? 

 

 

Same can be said for American Indians , Aborigines and Maoris

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Same can be said for American Indians , Aborigines and Maoris

No0ne of them want their own country.

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 hour ago, Purdey said:

 

 

i realize this is a sensitive subject but i don't understand why the people who were there first are not allowed a country, however small 

 

Jews were there first , 3000 years ago they built their Jewish Temple of David in Jerusalem and 1000 years later Romans invaded Jerusalem and killed nearly all the Jews there, 500  000 Jews killed by the Romans and that's when Arabs from surrounding area moved to Jerusalem

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 hour ago, Purdey said:

 

 

i realize this is a sensitive subject but i don't understand why the people who were there first are not allowed a country, however small 

 

The Palestinian  leadership want a hard-line Iranian style Islamic state  Country under Sharia law and if they were to become the majority in Israel, Jews may have to leave Israel again due to persecution , as they did have to leave Iran and various other Countries  in the past

[Hanaguma]

32 minutes ago, Saanim said:

Why not? Try e.g. in Iran, always ostracized  by Israel,  over 100,000 Jews years ago, now much less, however:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/despite-tension-between-iran-and-israel-irans-jewish-minority-feels-at-home 

Yeah, there are now in the neighborhood of 8,500 Jews left in Iran. Used to be 150,000.   After the Islamic revolution, the numbers dropped quickly. Gee, wonder why?

 

The exception does not disprove the rule.  

 

Now, about the other dozen or so countries in the area.... 

[Hanaguma]

36 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

No0ne of them want their own country.

Doesnt matter what they want.  They cannot and will not get it. Now if only Syria or Egypt or Saudi Arabia would give up just a tiny slice of their territory for the Palestinians to have as their own... 

[Saanim]

3 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

Doesnt matter what they want.  They cannot and will not get it. Now if only Syria or Egypt or Saudi Arabia would give up just a tiny slice of their territory for the Palestinians to have as their own... 

Was it Germany what the late Helen Thomas, the First Lady of WH press corps, once advised?

[placeholder]

4 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Jews were there first , 3000 years ago they built their Jewish Temple of David in Jerusalem and 1000 years later Romans invaded Jerusalem and killed nearly all the Jews there, 500  000 Jews killed by the Romans and that's when Arabs from surrounding area moved to Jerusalem

You mean there was nobody there before? The 12 tribes just marched into vacant territory? You know this how?

[Hanaguma]

25 minutes ago, Saanim said:

Was it Germany what the late Helen Thomas, the First Lady of WH press corps, once advised?

Sorry, I am not getting what you mean. Could you clarify please?

[Mac Mickmanus]

16 minutes ago, placeholder said:

You mean there was nobody there before? The 12 tribes just marched into vacant territory? You know this how?

The people living on the land became Jewish after Moses got a message from God on Mount Sinai .

   The 12 tribes of Israel come from errmmmm Israel .

The 12 tribes didn't march into anywhere , the land of Israel is where they originate from 

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The people living on the land became Jewish after Moses got a message from God on Mount Sinai .

   The 12 tribes of Israel come from errmmmm Israel .

The 12 tribes didn't march into anywhere , the land of Israel is where they originate from 

It's clear that you haven't actually read the Bible. I don't know how much credence to give it but according to that bizarre document, God led Moses to the Promised Land, namely Israel.  Moses himself never entered it.

[Mac Mickmanus]

5 minutes ago, placeholder said:

It's clear that you haven't actually read the Bible. I don't know how much credence to give it but according to that bizarre document, God led Moses to the Promised Land, namely Israel.  Moses himself never entered it.

I got my info from the Torah , rather than the Bible .

Jews were living on the land for 1000 years before the Bible was written 

[Credo]

I think it's nonsensical to try to argue one group was there 'first'.  The two groups, Jews and Palestinians, are so closely linked genetically it would seem that trying to determine ownership based on who was there first is farcical.   

 

In a study of Israeli Jews from four different groups (Ashkenazi Jews, Kurdish Jews, North African Sephardi Jews, and Iraqi Jews) and Palestinian Muslim Arabs, more than 70% of the Jewish men and 82% of the Arab men whose DNA was studied had inherited their Y chromosomes from the same paternal ancestors, who lived in the region within the last few thousand years. "Our recent study of high-resolution microsatellite haplotypes demonstrated that a substantial portion of Y chromosomes of Jews (70%) and of Palestinian Muslim Arabs (82%) belonged to the same chromosome pool."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews#cite_note-pmid11153918-37

 

Also here:  https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s004390000426

Edited February 1, 2023 by Credo

[Jingthing]

On 1/31/2023 at 7:56 AM, bangon04 said:

We cannot criticise the policies of the State of Israel because we are immediately labelled "anti-semitic" if we do. The US will protect the State of Israel at all costs.

That is not true. You can criticize their policies without being called an antisemite except if your criticism is obviously infected with antisemitism. 

[Jingthing]

13 hours ago, Saanim said:

I do not know who has said what about an "extermination", do you? What I know is that for more than 70 years the original population of Palestine is being evicted, their homes and centuries old olive orchards are daily destroyed, flattened.  That fact has been for years many times condemned by UN, numerous resolutions.  One of them (perhaps one in hundreds) was also supported exceptionally by US - at the end of Obama presidency.

 

The country is named officially by UN as "Occupied Palestinian Territories". (Assuming that the UN is not controlled and ruled by by islamists, is it?)  

 

Numerous reports by independent rapporteurs, with no further regards and actions.  And daily reported deaths of Palestinians by Israeli soldiers.

 

The international community (whatever it does mean) do nearly nothing against it as it (the I.C.) does in other cases with a huge outrage. That this unsolved situation is bringing daily more and more grave problems is surely inevitable.   

 

Just calling a spade a spade.

 

A lot of Arab activist rhetoric talks about driving the Jews into the sea. The terrorist rogue state of Iran has certainly been clear that they want to completely wipe out Israel. 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Credo said:

I think it's nonsensical to try to argue one group was there 'first'.  The two groups, Jews and Palestinians, are so closely linked genetically it would seem that trying to determine ownership based on who was there first is farcical.   

 

In a study of Israeli Jews from four different groups (Ashkenazi Jews, Kurdish Jews, North African Sephardi Jews, and Iraqi Jews) and Palestinian Muslim Arabs, more than 70% of the Jewish men and 82% of the Arab men whose DNA was studied had inherited their Y chromosomes from the same paternal ancestors, who lived in the region within the last few thousand years. "Our recent study of high-resolution microsatellite haplotypes demonstrated that a substantial portion of Y chromosomes of Jews (70%) and of Palestinian Muslim Arabs (82%) belonged to the same chromosome pool."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews#cite_note-pmid11153918-37

 

Also here:  https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s004390000426

That is true that the genetics are similar but I'm not sure why that's really relevant to the political situation. Italians are also genetically similar. 

 

An unfortunate flaw in the reason for Israel's existence -- finally a safe haven nation state after thousands of years of persecution in the diaspora is that now the majority of the world's Jews are in one very small country. Israel has compensated of course with their incredibly advanced security systems, but no such system is perfect.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Jingthing

[Mac Mickmanus]

6 hours ago, placeholder said:

You mean there was nobody there before? The 12 tribes just marched into vacant territory? You know this how?

4000 years ago Abraham moved to the land of Israel from Iraq and he had some Children there and his Grandsons were the 12 tribes of Israel  , all born in Israel 4000 odd years ago  .

  So the 12 tribes of Israel didn't march in from anywhere , they were born there and that's where Judaism/Jews originates from , Israel