Asylum plan 'very concerning' and would break international law - UN refugee agency

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

The boat crossings have gone up as lorry crossings have gone down.

The crossings are less likely to be impeded by the French as the UK left the Dublin Regulation and things are no longer a level playing field, it could be said the waves have become smaller.

It looks like the French waves are bigger, as they bid adieu and cheer off the rubber duck taxis leaving the beach at Plage de Strouanne. Bon Voyage! For RNLI call 999 or 112. 

[CG1 Blue]

3 hours ago, Hi from France said:

you just read the Guardian, one of the leading world newspapers, fiercely independent

Also fiercely anti-Brexit, and fiercely anti-Tory 

[Mac Mickmanus]

3 hours ago, Hi from France said:

you just read the Guardian, one of the leading world newspapers, fiercely independent

 

 

congrats ????

"Leading World newspaper ?

Out of the  16  UK daily newspapers , the Guardian readership figures are 13 th , meaning there are 12 other UK newspaper that have a bigger readership

 

[RayC]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

Brilliant! At the same time Ireland expects migrants to be a large percentage of an expected population jump of one million by 2040 (20%), (Project Ireland 2040), the Irish are already asking natives to leave! Many Irish citizens oppose this much migration and there have been several demonstrations already. The EU freedom of movement pillar is past its sell-by date.

 

https://www.sant.ox.ac.uk/sites/default/files/dahrendorf_essay_maeve_moynihan.pdf

 

 

The conclusion that freedom of movement within the EU is past its' sell-by date certainly isn't supported by your argument.

 

The article which you quote is mainly concerned with migration from outside the EU migration, which is also the subject of the demonstrations in Ireland.

 

And btw that link from 'The Independent' is from December 2013!

[proton]

5 hours ago, Hi from France said:

you just read the Guardian, one of the leading world newspapers, fiercely independent

 

 

congrats ????

Why is it always asking for donations if it's fiercely independent? Should be renamed the daily socialist!

[Bkk Brian]

7 hours ago, proton said:

Why is it always asking for donations if it's fiercely independent? Should be renamed the daily socialist!

Because its not drowned in adverts like some and has no paywall like some

[nauseus]

7 hours ago, RayC said:

The conclusion that freedom of movement within the EU is past its' sell-by date certainly isn't supported by your argument.

 

The article which you quote is mainly concerned with migration from outside the EU migration, which is also the subject of the demonstrations in Ireland.

 

And btw that link from 'The Independent' is from December 2013!

Freedom of movement was not much of an issue when the EEC was  up to 12 countries of similar status and culture. 

 

The article concerns burden sharing and in it Varadkar says about it: “an EU problem…that we all need to work together on”. Varadkar continued by saying that Ireland would play its role in the EU “burden sharing” of migrant arrival and transfer. 

 

The link site is St Antony’s College, Oxford; nothing to do with The Independent. That said, surprisingly, the date is not clear but the text and references indicate at least 2019.

[RayC]

4 hours ago, nauseus said:

Freedom of movement was not much of an issue when the EEC was  up to 12 countries of similar status and culture. 

Freedom of movement between the member states of the EU still isn't much of an issue. The illegal migration of non-EU citizens is the issue.

 

4 hours ago, nauseus said:

 

The article concerns burden sharing and in it Varadkar says about it: “an EU problem…that we all need to work together on”. Varadkar continued by saying that Ireland would play its role in the EU “burden sharing” of migrant arrival and transfer. 

And Varadkar was talking about non-EU (illegal) migration not migration between EU member states.

 

4 hours ago, nauseus said:

 

The link site is St Antony’s College, Oxford; nothing to do with The Independent. That said, surprisingly, the date is not clear but the text and references indicate at least 2019.

I didn't say that it was.

 

You replied to a post quoting an article from 'The Independent' from 2013 about the RoI's government response to unemployment and inferring that it was inconsistent with the goals of 'Project Ireland 2040'. That may be the case but the explanation is simple: In 2013 Ireland was still suffering from the effects of the financial crisis of 2018: Forward 6 years to 2019 and it is one of the fastest growing economies in Europe, hence the change in government policy.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, RayC said:

Freedom of movement between the member states of the EU still isn't much of an issue. The illegal migration of non-EU citizens is the issue.

 

And Varadkar was talking about non-EU (illegal) migration not migration between EU member states.

 

I didn't say that it was.

 

You replied to a post quoting an article from 'The Independent' from 2013 about the RoI's government response to unemployment and inferring that it was inconsistent with the goals of 'Project Ireland 2040'. That may be the case but the explanation is simple: In 2013 Ireland was still suffering from the effects of the financial crisis of 2018: Forward 6 years to 2019 and it is one of the fastest growing economies in Europe, hence the change in government policy.

The EU seems to be using the FOM pillar as a means to pressure members to share the burden of the larger number of non-EU migrants coming to Europe after 2015.

 

Yes - I missed the data of this article from 'The Independent - not sure why it has been used. But the problems remain and are ongoing with these demonstrations now.

 

 

Edited March 14, 2023 by nauseus

[onthedarkside]

off topic video removed. This is not about Gary Lineker

[proton]

8 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Because its not drowned in adverts like some and has no paywall like some

So is reduced to begging then, despite all the rich socialist readers ???? 

[RayC]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

The EU seems to be using the FOM pillar as a means to pressure members to share the burden of the larger number of non-EU migrants coming to Europe after 2015.

 

Yes - I missed the data of this article from 'The Independent - not sure why it has been used. But the problems remain and are ongoing with these demonstrations now.

 

 

How does FOM between EU member states pressurise them to share the burden imposed by the large number of asylum seekers? In fact, it could be argued that the existing EU policy -  whereby refugees are meant to remain in the first EU state in which they arrive until a decision on their status has been made - has exactly the opposite effect.

 

The demonstrations in Ireland are nothing to do with intra-EU migration. 

[nauseus]

10 minutes ago, RayC said:

How does FOM between EU member states pressurise them to share the burden imposed by the large number of asylum seekers? In fact, it could be argued that the existing EU policy -  whereby refugees are meant to remain in the first EU state in which they arrive until a decision on their status has been made - has exactly the opposite effect.

 

The demonstrations in Ireland are nothing to do with intra-EU migration. 

Several EU policies seem have been adjusted over the years - the Italians and Greeks could not bear this "burden" alone. The demonstrations in Ireland seem to have to do with migration of non-EU national migrants but by EU-internal arrangements, as Varadkar implied. 

[RayC]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

Several EU policies seem have been adjusted over the years - the Italians and Greeks could not bear this "burden" alone. The demonstrations in Ireland seem to have to do with migration of non-EU national migrants but by EU-internal arrangements, as Varadkar implied. 

A recognition that certain EU member states e.g. Greece, Italy might be overburdened by an influx of refugees and illegal migrants from outside of the EU - and that some action might be needed at an EU level to help mitigate the effects on those members - has absolutely nothing to do with intra-EU FOM.

 

The demonstrations in Ireland do not seem to be about migrants from outside the EU; they ARE about non-EU migration. These demonstrations weren't caused by "EU internal arrangements" (whatever that means?), they are a result of the Irish government's decision to establish refugee centres in certain parts of the country.

[sandyf]

On 3/14/2023 at 3:15 PM, nauseus said:

Several EU policies seem have been adjusted over the years - the Italians and Greeks could not bear this "burden" alone.

There is more than one "burden",  something the UK government and it's supporters refuse to acknowledge.

There has been armed conflict in many of the African states for a long time, currently 15.

 

"In at least 15 armed conflicts, including in the Democratic Republic of Congo, Cameroon, Ethiopia, Mozambique, Mali, Burkina Faso, and South Sudan, government forces or non-state armed groups have been implicated in abuses against civilians."

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/01/12/africa-conflicts-violence-threaten-rights#:~:text=In at least 15 armed,implicated in abuses against civilians.

 

Why didn't the UK government, or any other entity, set up a safe haven in somewhere like Rwanda years ago to try and keep the war refugees on the African continent. As usual it was head in the sand which allowed economic migrants from all over to join the flow into Europe. Collective responsibility with other measures could have reduced that to a trickle.

To make matters worse the UK kicked the EU in the teeth and now have no voice in the issues in the EU. If asylum seekers want to head to the UK why should the EU be concerned, not their problem.

The issue is now out of hand and desperation has set in, on both sides of the fence. Bills alone are no solution, there needs to be wire cutters in the other hand.

  

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

There is more than one "burden",  something the UK government and it's supporters refuse to acknowledge.

There has been armed conflict in many of the African states for a long time, currently 15.

 

"In at least 15 armed conflicts, including in the Democratic Republic of Congo, Cameroon, Ethiopia, Mozambique, Mali, Burkina Faso, and South Sudan, government forces or non-state armed groups have been implicated in abuses against civilians."

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/01/12/africa-conflicts-violence-threaten-rights#:~:text=In at least 15 armed,implicated in abuses against civilians.

 

Why didn't the UK government, or any other entity, set up a safe haven in somewhere like Rwanda years ago to try and keep the war refugees on the African continent. As usual it was head in the sand which allowed economic migrants from all over to join the flow into Europe. Collective responsibility with other measures could have reduced that to a trickle.

To make matters worse the UK kicked the EU in the teeth and now have no voice in the issues in the EU. If asylum seekers want to head to the UK why should the EU be concerned, not their problem.

The issue is now out of hand and desperation has set in, on both sides of the fence. Bills alone are no solution, there needs to be wire cutters in the other hand.

  

You do come out with some crackers. Africa's own internal problems and violence have been ongoing since long before the EU even existed. Don't be so silly. 

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, nauseus said:

You do come out with some crackers. Africa's own internal problems and violence have been ongoing since long before the EU even existed. Don't be so silly. 

Sorry, I must be mistaken. I was under the impression the UK government had suggested sending refugees to Rwanda. Horses and stable door come to mind.

The silly people are those that kicked the EU in the teeth, taking back control has become out of control. 

[Chomper Higgot]

On 3/13/2023 at 8:54 PM, Mac Mickmanus said:

"Leading World newspaper ?

Out of the  16  UK daily newspapers , the Guardian readership figures are 13 th , meaning there are 12 other UK newspaper that have a bigger readership

 

The Guardian has an international readership, and a solid reputation for first class journalism.

 

It’s also an accepted source to linked on this forum.

 

That doing so triggers a small number of reactionary right wing members is a bit of a bonus.

[James105]

5 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The Guardian has an international readership, and a solid reputation for first class journalism.

 

It’s also an accepted source to linked on this forum.

 

That doing so triggers a small number of reactionary right wing members is a bit of a bonus.

That's quite surprising it is considered as an accepted source on here considering it gets a 'Mixed' rating on the media bias site (which was used as reasoning for why a post from GB news was removed even though GB news has the same rating):

 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-guardian/

 

"Overall, we rate The Guardian Left-Center biased based on story selection that moderately favors the left and Mixed for factual reporting due to numerous failed fact checks over the last five years."

[Chomper Higgot]

18 minutes ago, James105 said:

That's quite surprising it is considered as an accepted source on here considering it gets a 'Mixed' rating on the media bias site (which was used as reasoning for why a post from GB news was removed even though GB news has the same rating):

 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-guardian/

 

"Overall, we rate The Guardian Left-Center biased based on story selection that moderately favors the left and Mixed for factual reporting due to numerous failed fact checks over the last five years."

There is no such thing as an unbiased newspaper, all of them have editorial lines.

 

Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying to you.

Oddly you linked to the media bias report on The Guardian but omitted the media bias report for GB News.

 

Here it is:

 

“QUESTIONABLE SOURCE

A questionable source exhibits one or more of the following: extreme bias, consistent promotion of propaganda/conspiracies, poor or no sourcing to credible information, a complete lack of transparency, and/or is fake news. Fake News is the deliberate attempt to publish hoaxes and/or disinformation for profit or influence ”

 

 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/gb-news-uk-bias/

Edited March 16, 2023 by Chomper Higgot

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

Sorry, I must be mistaken. I was under the impression the UK government had suggested sending refugees to Rwanda. Horses and stable door come to mind.

The silly people are those that kicked the EU in the teeth, taking back control has become out of control. 

The Rwanda idea does nothing to stop organized human trafficking, which is the main reason for the recent large increases in migrants arriving in Europe and, so, on to the UK. This is illegal in the EU but evidently not well controlled there. Merkel showed who was really in control of the EU in 2015, when European doors were opened wide by the words of one woman in one country - the vote to leave the EU was not just about immigration - but Mutti Merkel actually helped the UK out. 

[Chomper Higgot]

18 minutes ago, nauseus said:

The Rwanda idea does nothing to stop organized human trafficking, which is the main reason for the recent large increases in migrants arriving in Europe and, so, on to the UK. This is illegal in the EU but evidently not well controlled there. Merkel showed who was really in control of the EU in 2015, when European doors were opened wide by the words of one woman in one country - the vote to leave the EU was not just about immigration - but Mutti Merkel actually helped the UK out. 

The people traffickers are a direct product of restrictions on migration, in just the same way as boot leg gets were a direct product of prohibition.

 

You need to look a bit closer at who first created the mass refugee crisis of 2015 and then drive the refugees towards Europe’s borders.

 

It wasn’t Merkel, but you are correct it was a significant factor in Brexit.

[nauseus]

46 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The people traffickers are a direct product of restrictions on migration, in just the same way as boot leg gets were a direct product of prohibition.

 

You need to look a bit closer at who first created the mass refugee crisis of 2015 and then drive the refugees towards Europe’s borders.

 

It wasn’t Merkel, but you are correct it was a significant factor in Brexit.

From that I must assume that you think that unrestricted migration is OK? These people traffickers are criminals but continue on with it because they are allowed to. Migrants use the traffickers because they have the aim to reach Europe/UK but traffickers control most of the routes and means to achieve that aim. True refugees in strife lose out because they have no money and can't pay. Why do we see so few women and children in these groups arriving now?

 

I didn't say that Merkel created the wave of refugees but, yes her actions were a factor w.r.t. the Brexit vote. What was revealing (and more alarming) was the deafening silence from the EU after she rolled out the welcome mat, even after she had broken EU immigration rules.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34402001

[RayC]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

The Rwanda idea does nothing to stop organized human trafficking, which is the main reason for the recent large increases in migrants arriving in Europe and, so, on to the UK.

I'm not sure if organized human trafficking is THE main reason, but there's no denying it's a major problem.

 

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

This is illegal in the EU but evidently not well controlled there

Human trafficking is illegal everywhere. It's not a question of controlling it. It needs to be eradicated. Question is how. 

 

Is human trafficking "well controlled" in the UK?

 

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

. Merkel showed who was really in control of the EU in 2015, when European doors were opened wide by the words of one woman in one country

That is not what happened. If anything it showed the exact opposite to what you suggest i.e that Germany does not and cannot control the EU singlehandedly.

 

If you recall, Merkel opened the German borders to refugees; a move that was widely criticized by Sarkozy amongst others. Merkel also wanted an EU-wide quota system for re-housing refugees. This idea was adopted by the Commission and became EU law. However, the system was opposed - and never implemented - by many central/ Eastern European member states. A couple of years later the quota system was dropped.

 

A failure which shows flaws both in policy and implementation on the part of the EU? Almost certainly but not for the reason you suggest.

 

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

- the vote to leave the EU was not just about immigration - but Mutti Merkel actually helped the UK out. 

What do you know, we (almost) finish in agreement.

 

Given the result of the referendum, I wouldn't phrase things in that way but I agree with the gist of your argument.

Edited March 16, 2023 by RayC
Correction

[bannork]

Braverman unable to offer any legal routes to the UK for many asylum seekers.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

18 hours ago, sandyf said:

Why didn't the UK government, or any other entity, set up a safe haven in somewhere like Rwanda years ago to try and keep the war refugees on the African continent.

Years ago would have had to have been the EU as Britain was still in it so unable to do so, and the EU leaders seem quite keen on letting them in.

After that there was a little plague that sort of took over everything.

[thaibeachlovers]

13 hours ago, sandyf said:

Sorry, I must be mistaken. I was under the impression the UK government had suggested sending refugees to Rwanda. Horses and stable door come to mind.

The silly people are those that kicked the EU in the teeth, taking back control has become out of control. 

Seemed to me the only thing the EU did was to take as many as arrived on EU shores. That's not any sort of "control".

IMO special forces should be used to eliminate the traffickers. Do that and a lot of economic migrants will not be able to get to Europe as IMO they are the ones able to pay.

[sandyf]

15 hours ago, nauseus said:

The Rwanda idea does nothing to stop organized human trafficking, which is the main reason for the recent large increases in migrants arriving in Europe and, so, on to the UK.

There is more more to it than illegals but obviously you and others are so fixated the humanitarian issue is kicked to one side.

One day you may realise why there is still a need for prisons.

[sandyf]

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Years ago would have had to have been the EU as Britain was still in it so unable to do so,

If you had paid attention you would be aware my original post blamed the UN for not bringing the affected nations together, and the UK like the rest of the EU stuck their head in the sand.  As I also said probably down to a lack of interest by the UN with the US being so far from the problem.

Had the US been where Europe is things would have gone in a totally different direction.

 

 

[RayC]

7 hours ago, bannork said:

Braverman unable to offer any legal routes to the UK for many asylum seekers.

 

What an incredibly damning clip.

 

It shows that Braverman's proposal is unworkable and might actually encourage those desperate enough to seek out the traffickers, as there is no legal route to asylum open to them.

 

As an aside, I bet "the team" were delighted about being thrown under a bus!