'We're asking for help to bring our boy home to Manchester so he's not alone as he fights for his life'

[Yellowtail]

12 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Gaslighting again... 

 

You seem incapable of making a balanced arguement without exaggerating or distorting a comment to you can generate your own response !!!.... 

 

You think all helmets cost 20 k baht ?

I was responding to someone moaning the helmets people wear are too cheap. Please try to follow along. 

 

 

[Dogsredrocket]

40 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

People who think not-wearing a helmet is victimless are not the sharpest tools in the box...

Exactly and goes for all nationalities. I don't wont to end up in court because someone has managed to kill themselves in an accident that they caused.

 

Quite frankly the Thais are grossly incompetent and negligent when it comes to riding a motorcycle. Quality helmets should be mandatory and heavy fines should apply.  Babies and infants on motorcycles are another display of gross negligence.

[Dogsredrocket]

24 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I was responding to someone moaning the helmets people wear are too cheap. Please try to follow along.

Nice straw man fella. Do you think a 10 year old upturned ice cream container on the noggin is going to protect Somchai's skull contents?

 

Quite frankly you sound like someone who doesn't know anything about motorcycles or protective clothing. Why you have to argue in the face of complete reason is baffling.

 

[KhaoYai]

38 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Well, now you're changing your story, before in was Thais don't wear helmets, now it's most Thais out in the county. I have not been to Korat in a few years, but I was in Kabinburi for years and I would say most Thails in wear helmets there. 

 

In any event, I do not understand what business it is of mine or yours whether people want to wear a helmet or not. 

 

 

You are quite clearly being deliberately argumetative and I think most people here will easily see how.  If you see most people wearing crash helmets or even the majority of them, you must live in a different country to that which I spend a lot of my time in. The last time I spent much time in the city, Bangkok was no different - if that's changed, that's great news.

 

I think its quite clear why helmets are involved in this discussion and I am not prepared to continue feeding your deliberately argumentative stance.

[KhaoYai]

8 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

I only mentioned it as a lot of people are unaware of the 125cc limit & think that because they have travel insurance & a big bike license they're covered when most of the time they're not. 

 

I'm not suggesting that the "Gold Cover" doesn't cover a bigger bike but if you took a look at the All Clear FAQ... 

https://www.comparetravelinsurance.com.au/travel-insurance-companies/all-clear

 

It clearly states... 

What size moped or motorbike am I covered to ride overseas?

You are covered if the engine capacity is less than 125cc. You also need to be wearing a crash helmet.

 

 

 

 

The All Clear Gold policy covers any size of motorcycle - the only exclusions are below - from my policy:

 

13) a) you driving a motor cycle unless you hold the
equivalent and appropriate valid licence in the UK;
b) you driving or riding on a motor cycle unless you are
wearing a crash helmet;

 

The wording is in 'General Exclusions' and states what is not covered so.......you are not covered when riding a bike (no size limit metioned) if you don't hold a licence in the UK and you are not wearing a crash helmet.  Note, the policy does not cover the UK so don't draw any inference from the UK licence bit. It simply means that you must have a UK licence for that bike - that you are riding it abroad is implicit.

 

I should perhaps also state that I have just received a renewal quote and the price has jumped to £193.  I still think that's good value for a 12 month multi trip policy.

[Yellowtail]

9 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

You are quite clearly being deliberately argumetative and I think most people here will easily see how.  If you see most people wearing crash helmets or even the majority of them, you must live in a different country to that which I spend a lot of my time in. The last time I spent much time in the city, Bangkok was no different - if that's changed, that's great news.

 

I think its quite clear why helmets are involved in this discussion and I am not prepared to continue feeding your deliberately argumentative stance.

 

[KhaoYai]

3 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

 

Jeez.... we've covered this..........Bangkok for christ's sake!

[richard_smith237]

46 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

Gaslighting again... 

 

You seem incapable of making a balanced arguement without exaggerating or distorting a comment to you can generate your own response !!!.... 

 

You think all helmets cost 20 k baht ?

Expand  

I was responding to someone moaning the helmets people wear are too cheap. Please try to follow along. 

And your response was flawed reasoning to imply that people used cheap plastic lids because a guy on 15k baht per month can’t afford a 20k baht helmet....     

 

Your counter argument is unintelligent and a perfect example of gaslighting in a poor attempt to point score...  

 

I’m sure you know as well as anyone that perfectly good helmets are available...

Additionally, decent helmets are often given away with with the purchase of a new bike (I know, not everyone is on a new bike)... but there are good helmets around.

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

7 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

 

So you are basing your understanding on ‘central sukhumvit’ !!!!

 

Exactly 8.6kms from there, in my area the helmet wear is about 50/50 I reckon. Many of those same riders would probably wear their helmet if going to the Sukhmivit area, but if they are staying in the local area they don’t bother. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bday Prang]

7 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

It's not racial profiling. 

 Whether it is or it isn't , who cares anyway ?  There is nothing wrong with profiling, racial or otherwise. Its an important tool for law enforcement agencies and should be used more. Only the woke (or the guilty)  could object

[Yellowtail]

21 minutes ago, Dogsredrocket said:

Nice straw man fella. Do you think a 10 year old upturned ice cream container on the noggin is going to protect Somchai's skull contents?

Somchai? You sound like a racist. 

21 minutes ago, Dogsredrocket said:

Quite frankly you sound like someone who doesn't know anything about motorcycles or protective clothing. Why you have to argue in the face of complete reason is baffling.

Is a cheap helmet better than no helmet or not? 

 

I am not arguing that riding with a helmet is not safer than riding without a helmet, nor am I arguing that an expensive helmet is (generally) not better than a cheap helmet, so I'm not clear what you're about. 

 

I've had six motorcycles, a mini-bike and a go-kart. Sold the last one in '88, so I know little of modern equipment. I also had access to a company bike (typically Waves) for the over twenty years I worked in Thailand, but only rode it occasionally around the plant. I've had a number of accidents on bikes, one of which was serious. I quit riding because after my last accident it was not fun anymore.

 

I wish everyone would wear a helmet, but I never liked wearing a helmet and I have no interest in compelling others to wear one. 

 

 

 

[Yellowtail]

17 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

Jeez.... we've covered this..........Bangkok for christ's sake!

From your previous post:

 

"You are quite clearly being deliberately argumetative and I think most people here will easily see how.  If you see most people wearing crash helmets or even the majority of them, you must live in a different country to that which I spend a lot of my time in. The last time I spent much time in the city, Bangkok was no different - if that's changed, that's great news."

 

I just thought you might want some great news. Bangkok had changed a lot in the ten=twenty years since you've been here. 

[richard_smith237]

Just now, Yellowtail said:

Somchai? You sound like a racist. 

WOW... what are you on...  you pull the racist card !!! ????????????????

 

You are that desperate to point score in this debate you’ll try any tactic to attempt a hit.. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

3 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Bangkok had changed a lot in the ten=twenty years since you've been here. 

And there is more to Bangkok than central Sukhumvit... which seems to be where you are making all your observations and then generalising a 1569 Sq M metropolis of 10 million people !!!!... 

 

 

 

 

[Yellowtail]

16 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

So you are basing your understanding on ‘central sukhumvit’ !!!!

 

Exactly 8.6kms from there, in my area the helmet wear is about 50/50 I reckon. Many of those same riders would probably wear their helmet if going to the Sukhmivit area, but if they are staying in the local area they don’t bother. 

 

More gaslighting! 

 

I currently dive from Bangkok to Salaya at least once a week and to Samut Prakan at least every other. 

 

I drove from Kabinburi to Bangkok every week for over twenty years. 

 

I see you all the time blowing by me doing 140 in your Vios.... (just kidding) 

[Yellowtail]

6 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

WOW... what are you on...  you pull the racist card !!! ????????????????

 

You are that desperate to point score in this debate you’ll try any tactic to attempt a hit.. 

Can he not speak for himself? 

 

I'm sorry, but the condescending attitude so many people here is sickening.

[NoDisplayName]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

Again, what business it is of yours whether other people choose to wear a helmet? 

 

What negative affect does it have on you?

Well, here's where it gets interesting.

 

Let's say Billy Bob hits a curb at speed and flies over his handlebars, smacking his noggin on a light pole and cracking his skull.  Let's say he survives, barely, but needs multiple major surgeries, extensive time on a ventilator in ICU, and perhaps years of physical therapy.

 

Billy Bob was a wee bit tipsy, he didn't wear a helmet, and he had no insurance.  Heck, while we're at it, his license was suspended two years ago, but the police always looked the other way.

 

Somebody has to pay for all this.  There's the ambulance and police, paid for with tax bahts, but this takes away from deserving victims.  The hospital and the doctors and the medicines and the surgeries and the therapy?  It either comes out of the pockets of law-abiding insurance holders through higher premiums (if insurance come into this at all), or increased taxes, or the lost opportunities to use collected taxes for the public good.  There's potential psychological trauma caused to others, or damage to other property to consider as well.

 

So in a civilized society rights are not absolute.  They come with responsibilities as well.  If we're gonna let Billy Bob ride without a helmet, I'm fine with that, but no public services or insurance payout when he crashes.  He's on his own.  No helmet?  Send the street sweepers to push him into the gutter.

[richard_smith237]

39 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Can he not speak for himself? 

 

I'm sorry, but the condescending attitude so many people here is sickening.

Apologies for seeming condescending, it's often difficult not to come across as patronising and superior when responding to the utterly obtuse.....  

 

I do thank you for you contribution to the thread, the differences of opinion keeps it interesting, these threads would be over in moment if we all agreed. The comments of some help many of us realise that there are those out there who really are ‘just that different’ and lets face it half the people on this forum are of below the average intelligence of people on this forum... so someone has to speak up for them, so thank you for that too....  !...  ????

 

 

[richard_smith237]

23 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

If we're gonna let Billy Bob ride without a helmet,

Yellowtail... are you going to accuse him of being racist to Westernerer's for using the name ‘Billy Bob’ or is that ok and its only ’Somchai’ which suits your virtue signalling ???

 

 

 

 

[kwilco]

12 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

I only mentioned it as a lot of people are unaware of the 125cc limit & think that because they have travel insurance & a big bike license they're covered when most of the time they're not. 

 

I'm not suggesting that the "Gold Cover" doesn't cover a bigger bike but if you took a look at the All Clear FAQ... 

https://www.comparetravelinsurance.com.au/travel-insurance-companies/all-clear

 

It clearly states... 

What size moped or motorbike am I covered to ride overseas?

You are covered if the engine capacity is less than 125cc. You also need to be wearing a crash helmet.

 

 

 

 

Yes Staysure only cover you for bikes up to 125 cc.

You must have FULL licence and crash hat.

[Dont confuse me]

On 3/11/2023 at 6:22 AM, FritsSikkink said:

Father of 5, no helmet, on the phone while driving after a couple of drinks.

Now the family begging for money.

Nuff said. 

Well said, 

[kwilco]

On 3/11/2023 at 12:22 PM, FritsSikkink said:

Father of 5, no helmet, on the phone while driving after a couple of drinks.

Now the family begging for money.

Nuff said. 

Do what are you saying enough of? He should be left to die?

[Scott]

Trolling meme, baiting, bickering posts and replies removed.

 

[kwilco]

4 hours ago, Dont confuse me said:

Well said, 

But not enough said...there is no solution offered.

Millions of people visit Thailand every year. Statically people make mistakes and misjudgements.

This is bound to happen. Just saying "I told you so" achieves  nothing.  It is just  regurgitating the obvious.

I suppose it makes people feel smug when it isn't them.

The truth is that it can happen to them too....maybe not in the same way but rhey may find themselves locked up, hospitalised or stranded in Thailand for one reason or another and then what?

" it wasn't MY fault", I didn't know" "my insurance company conned me"... or are all the posters on this thread infallible?

The solution is that both embassies and Thailand should acknowledge a duty of care.

People either should be repatriated or fully treated in these circumstances...not left to die like the amateur Nazis on this thread are implying.

 

We can all see the errors and just reiterating them achieves nothing, apart from showing how dim those posters are...they contribute nothing to the situation.

Then there are those who point out that a more humane approach will lead to abuse. In fact they are wrong.... people who do this are a small constant...so are they suggesting that a whole scheme should be scrapped because of a few rotten apples and those in need should be left to suffer?

And the cost? As a portion of a nation's foreign expenditure or the Thai tourist industry's turnover, this is a drop in the ocean. To think otherwise just shows a lack of understanding of large numbers.... it is also perfectly reasonable to expect people to pay back the cost once they are recovered or repatriated ... this is a system that works all over the world from medical aid to education to buying a house.

It seems though that rather than think constructively, most posters on this thread prefer to stick to a nape of the neck regurgitation of the "bleedin' obvious" (John Cleese).

 

[KhaoYai]

Sadly, people will take chances, people will also break the law given the chance - especially when that law is not enforced.

 

This is why I brought the role of the state into this discussion.  I am not totally blaming the state for this and the other accidents with similar consequences that we hear of all too often. What I am saying is that the state has a role to play. Would this accident have happened at all in a different country - somehow I doubt it would, not in a country that has properly enforced traffic laws.

 

That said, even in such a country, accidents do happen - laws and enforcement will never stop them all. But, and its a very big but, the Thai state knows very well that literally thousands of people are killed on motorcycles on its roads every year. It also knows that its laws are not enforced and that all too often fines are both inadequate and are nothing more than Tea Money.

 

Enforcement would not save all those lives but I think its a safe bet that it would save an awful lot of them.  Its not too difficult to understand that the threat of a much higher penalty and the loss of one's licence would take time, but eventually would change things.  Yes people are much poorer in Thailand - so what?  All the more reason for them to fear a heavy fine or the loss of their licence.

 

But what do we see from the state? A new points system that allows people to be caught for drink driving 3 times before losing their licence!  To make things worse, they are now proposing ways that people who have lost points, can get them back within 6 months!!!

 

How do I know that a properly enforced system of punishment will work?  I see it in action every day in my home country - the UK.  I would bet everthing I own that on my drive into work tomorrow, I see no motorcycle riders not wearing their crash helmet.  Yes, there are far less motorcycles on the UK's roads but its not just about that, its about people's attitude towards the law.

 

I'm pretty sure that if people could get away with not wearing a crash helmet in the UK, some would.  I'm also pretty sure that if people could pay the police a few pounds to get out of a traffic offence or losing their licence, they would.

 

If people all behaved properly without laws, we wouldn't need them would we? As I said earlier, that's Utopia and it doesn't exist.

 

So, in my opinion, backed up by evidence of how things work in other countries, I believe that the state has a lot to answer for in this and all the other accidents that sadly happen in Thailand on a daily basis.

 

I am not a fan of over-regulation but there are some facets of life where regulations are very necessary.  When you ride a bike or drive a car, you are in charge of a weapon.  A weapon that can not only kill or mame you, it can kill and mame others - to say nothing of the heartache caused to victim's friends and families.

 

Regulation and its enforcement is sadly lacking on Thailand's roads and that needs putting right.  Will it be? The answer to that can be found in what I said about the new points system. Not a hope in hell. Next week, next month and next year, we will still be reading similar stories to the OP.

[kwilco]

2 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

Sadly, people will take chances, people will also break the law given the chance - especially when that law is not enforced.

 

This is why I brought the role of the state into this discussion.  I am not totally blaming the state for this and the other accidents with similar consequences that we hear of all too often. What I am saying is that the state has a role to play. Would this accident have happened at all in a different country - somehow I doubt it would, not in a country that has properly enforced traffic laws.

 

That said, even in such a country, accidents do happen - laws and enforcement will never stop them all. But, and its a very big but, the Thai state knows very well that literally thousands of people are killed on motorcycles on its roads every year. It also knows that its laws are not enforced and that all too often fines are both inadequate and are nothing more than Tea Money.

 

Enforcement would not save all those lives but I think its a safe bet that it would save an awful lot of them.  Its not too difficult to understand that the threat of a much higher penalty and the loss of one's licence would take time, but eventually would change things.  Yes people are much poorer in Thailand - so what?  All the more reason for them to fear a heavy fine or the loss of their licence.

 

But what do we see from the state? A new points system that allows people to be caught for drink driving 3 times before losing their licence!  To make things worse, they are now proposing ways that people who have lost points, can get them back within 6 months!!!

 

How do I know that a properly enforced system of punishment will work?  I see it in action every day in my home country - the UK.  I would bet everthing I own that on my drive into work tomorrow, I see no motorcycle riders not wearing their crash helmet.  Yes, there are far less motorcycles on the UK's roads but its not just about that, its about people's attitude towards the law.

 

I'm pretty sure that if people could get away with not wearing a crash helmet in the UK, some would.  I'm also pretty sure that if people could pay the police a few pounds to get out of a traffic offence or losing their licence, they would.

 

If people all behaved properly without laws, we wouldn't need them would we? As I said earlier, that's Utopia and it doesn't exist.

 

So, in my opinion, backed up by evidence of how things work in other countries, I believe that the state has a lot to answer for in this and all the other accidents that sadly happen in Thailand on a daily basis.

 

I am not a fan of over-regulation but there are some facets of life where regulations are very necessary.  When you ride a bike or drive a car, you are in charge of a weapon.  A weapon that can not only kill or mame you, it can kill and mame others - to say nothing of the heartache caused to victim's friends and families.

 

Regulation and its enforcement is sadly lacking on Thailand's roads and that needs putting right.  Will it be? The answer to that can be found in what I said about the new points system. No a hope in hell. Next week, next month and next year, we will still be reading similar stories to the OP.

Your assessment of road safety solutions is quite wrong....however I believe that Thailand has a responsibility towards visitors' safety as they are contributing to 20% of the country's  income.

To cite a single issue road safety is not a valid argument especially as you don't have a comprehensive overview of that situation. In reality it is general safety of tourists that needs to be addressed...health and safety issues, crime etc etc. Many buildings and resorts don't comply with international safety standards, electricity safety, hygiene,  swimming pools, standard of healthcare, corruption all are ome of the factors that can endanger visitors

[jerrymahoney]

Koh Samui Welcomes 200,000 Tourists in January 2023

 

https://www.thailandelitevisas.com/news-events-post/koh-samui-welcomes-200000-tourists-last-month/

 

So of those 200K tourists, how many had serious motor bike accidents, or fell off balconies, or dove into the shallow end of the swimming pool?

 

I can see that some officials might cite those numbers to say that resort destinations are statistically remarkably safe and that much of the problems  encountered by short-term tourists might be minimized if they would only read the travel-to-Thailand advisories/warnings given by the UK and US governments as a start.

 

[markclover]

The family should travel to Thailand and stay with him.  It's safer for their son than putting him on a plane for 13 hours + waiting around.

[Rimmer]

Some troll posts have been removed

[kwilco]

29 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

Nonsense, you're both over complication things and undercomplicating things.  You're also rattling on about a broad range of matters that are nothing whatsoever to do with this thread.

 

Thai people have just as much of a right to stay alive as foreigners do. I am not citing a single issue, I thought that was clear.  Cleaning up Thailand's traffic laws, their enforcement and making punishment's work would drastically reduce deaths and other casualties.  That is all I am concerned with here.

 

Overview of the situation?  What planet are you on?  Have you not seen how Thai's behave on the roads?  Have you not seen Tea Money given?  Have you any idea how few Thai's actually have a driving licence? Do you know what happens to them if they are caught without a licence?

 

General safety of tourists?  This thread is about a motorcycle accident and we are currently discussing the reasons why the accident happened and how it could possibly have been prevented.

 

If you want to start a thread about building standards, feel free to do so but I guarantee you, if you continue talking about such matters in this thread, the mods will step in and delete your posts. Please stay on topic.

You're xiting Thailands traffic laws and their enforcement which you don't understand are not the whole issue...it is intact a complex situation that is centred on public health issues amongst others...you're seeking a simplification because you fail to grasp the fill complexities of the overall situation. You are fixating on this one individual and applying an incorrect assessment of Thai Road safety issues to it.

That won't get a solution.