Joint Bank Account--widow refused access

[prakhonchai nick]

Helping a widow whose husband died many years ago. They had a joint savings account, and her widows pension was paid into that account. For several years she access her money via ATM card until that expired and since has been withdrawing money from the bank branch  (Bank designated with a letter)

 

Now the book is full, bank will not issue a new book until they have a  death certificate, and meanwhile despite being a joint account, she cannot withdraw any money

 

UK death certificate with notarised translation has been provided, but they now  say after 4 days, that they need to make enquiries in the UK...........<deleted>!!!!!!!!

 

Surely what they are doing is totally wrong.  There is no reason why the widow cannot access money in a joint account, especially as everything she was asked for has been provided.  Bank will not discuss!!!!!!!!

 

[NanLaew]

The bank will not discuss with you as a third party.

 

What entity notarized the translated death certificate?

[OneMoreFarang]

19 minutes ago, prakhonchai nick said:

UK death certificate with notarised translation has been provided, but they now  say after 4 days, that they need to make enquiries in the UK...........<deleted>!!!!!!!!

Do you blame the bank for doing due diligence?

Obviously she should be able to have access to that account. But give the bank a little time to confirm the details.

 

A few years ago I had to deal with some banks in Europe in a similar issue. It took months and lots of sometimes duplicated documents. Obviously it's nice if things happen fast, but sometimes we just have to wait and go through the process. 

[prakhonchai nick]

10 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

The bank will not discuss with you as a third party.

 

What entity notarized the translated death certificate?

She went alone. A Thai lawyer/notary public notarised the translated document and the orignial UK death certificate.

[prakhonchai nick]

4 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Do you blame the bank for doing due diligence?

Obviously she should be able to have access to that account. But give the bank a little time to confirm the details.

 

A few years ago I had to deal with some banks in Europe in a similar issue. It took months and lots of sometimes duplicated documents. Obviously it's nice if things happen fast, but sometimes we just have to wait and go through the process. 

The bank had a week, and then said they needed to refer to the uK...who and why they would not say, and sadly the widow was too meek and mild   (to put it frankly....plain dumb) to ask or request to see the manager as she had been told to do.

[userabcd]

Once again proves money in a bank account is not owned by the ones whose names are on the account and whose money is deposited in the account.

 

Wish there was some legal practical way to have our personal money/savings held outside of banks and investment institutions.

Edited March 15, 2023 by userabcd

[chickenslegs]

She could open a new account in her own name and make a request to her pension provider to pay into that account asap.

Any money in the joint account will be held by the bank until their procedures are concluded but, at least she will get her regular pension payments.

[OneMoreFarang]

5 minutes ago, prakhonchai nick said:

The bank had a week, and then said they needed to refer to the uK...who and why they would not say, and sadly the widow was too meek and mild   (to put it frankly....plain dumb) to ask or request to see the manager as she had been told to do.

And somehow you think "a week" is a long time for such enquiry. Think again! Some official procedures take months, even if all documents are supplied and all works according to plan. 

[OneMoreFarang]

5 minutes ago, userabcd said:

Once again proves money in a bank account is not owned by the ones whose names are on the account and whose money is deposited in the account.

 

Wish there was some legal practical way to have our personal money/savings held outside of banking and investment institutions.

You could use Crypto ... 

[userabcd]

5 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

You could use Crypto ... 

Never, not interested in that, very risky.

 

Exchanging in and out would at some point give rise to cause even more issues at any point in the normal banking system.

Edited March 15, 2023 by userabcd

[OneMoreFarang]

Sometimes we hear from scams around bank accounts. And then many people ask: Why did the bank allow that? Why did it happen? Why don't I get my money back?

They blame the bank(s) for doing things too fast and without doublechecking details.

And then we have posts that people complain why it takes so long to get things done with banks.

Too fast or too slow, people often blame the banks.

 

That doesn't mean I am a fan of all banks and how they do things. But I learned that sometimes we have to accept that some things take longer than what we expect.

And sometimes banks don't want to do certain things because they are afraid of getting later complaints why they did it. Banks have to work according to lots of regulations. And, as far as I know, many of those regulations are there to protect us, the honest bank customers. 

[scorecard]

26 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

The bank will not discuss with you as a third party.

 

What entity notarized the translated death certificate?

You mention they had a joint savings account.

Just to be clear, gets the facts right, is the joint savings account set up

- So that both parties must sign a withdrawal slip?

- Only one party needs to sign?

 

 

[prakhonchai nick]

7 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

And somehow you think "a week" is a long time for such enquiry. Think again! Some official procedures take months, even if all documents are supplied and all works according to plan. 

Sorry disagree. Joint account, husband dead, It is her money. proof of death provided. What more do they need! Even without his death, it was a joint account with just one  signature needed for withddrawal  NOT BOTH.

[prakhonchai nick]

1 minute ago, scorecard said:

You mention they had a joint savings account.

Just to be clear, gets the facts right, is the joint savings account set up

- So that both parties must sign a withdrawal slip?

- Only one party needs to sign?

 

 

Just one party.  As I said above she had been witdrawing regularly in the bank branch - until the book was full

[NanLaew]

10 minutes ago, prakhonchai nick said:

She went alone. A Thai lawyer/notary public notarised the translated document and the orignial UK death certificate.

I am not sure what value Thai notarization holds on a foreign-sourced document since the last time I checked, this country wasn't signatory to any international conventions on apostille. However, since this is a Thai institution seeking evidence, one would think the local notary would suffice.

 

I just checked and the British Embassy in Bangkok does not include attesting to UK-issued death certificates (if they ever did) in their limited services. Maybe the death certificate and notarized translation needs another stamp from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs either in Bangkok or Chiang Mai to make the bank happy?

[Liquorice]

9 minutes ago, prakhonchai nick said:

She went alone. A Thai lawyer/notary public notarised the translated document and the orignial UK death certificate.

How can a Thai lawyer authenticate a UK death certificate.

The correct procedure is to have the British Embassy authenticate the document, then have it translated, then legalised by Thailand's Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
Only then will it be acceptable as a genuine foreign document by the bank - hence their enquiries.

 

It's also no longer a 'joint' account per se.

[prakhonchai nick]

1 minute ago, NanLaew said:

I am not sure what value Thai notarization holds on a foreign-sourced document since the last time I checked, this country wasn't signatory to any international conventions on apostille. However, since this is a Thai institution seeking evidence, one would think the local notary would suffice.

 

I just checked and the British Embassy in Bangkok does not include attesting to UK-issued death certificates (if they ever did) in their limited services. Maybe the death certificate and notarized translation needs another stamp from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs either in Bangkok or Chiang Mai to make the bank happy?

That may be the case, but a) they won't say and b) they were given all they asked for.

[prakhonchai nick]

Just now, Liquorice said:

How can a Thai lawyer authenticate a UK death certificate.

The correct procedure is to have the British Embassy authenticate the document, then have it translated, then legalised by Thailand's Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
Only then will it be acceptable as a genuine foreign document by the bank - hence their enquiries.

 

It's also no longer a 'joint' account per se.

Valid comments, but she provided all that was asked for.

[Brickleberry]

21 minutes ago, prakhonchai nick said:

She went alone. A Thai lawyer/notary public notarised the translated document and the orignial UK death certificate.

According to the process for my visa, UK documents need to be notarized in the UK by an FCDO approved lawyer.

 

Thai lawyers can't notarize UK documents as genuine, they can only be notarized in the country of origin. A Thai lawyer can notarize a Thai translation as genuine, if the translation was done in Thailand.

[NanLaew]

3 minutes ago, scorecard said:

32 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

The bank will not discuss with you as a third party.

 

What entity notarized the translated death certificate?

You mention they had a joint savings account.

Just to be clear, gets the facts right, is the joint savings account set up

- So that both parties must sign a withdrawal slip?

- Only one party needs to sign?

Also check the small print to see what the banks policy on surviving signatories in the event of one or the other's early passing?

 

It's not a 'Thailand thing' either. When my father passed away in Scotland, there was quite a bit of a paper chasing for mum to maintain access to the funds in the joint account they held at the same branch for 56 years. A branch where their ONLY banking transactions were personal walk-in jobs. The staff were duly respectful but their rules insisted that the paper trail be completed before she could become the sole account holder. At that juncture, we decided that my sister obtain power of attorney for mum's estate and that helped immensely with withdrawing money and closing the account when she also passed away a few years later.

[NanLaew]

8 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

The correct procedure is to have the British Embassy authenticate the document, then have it translated, then legalised by Thailand's Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

Services we provide in Thailand

Consular staff can provide the following services only:

• administer an affirmation for the purpose of marriage under Thai law
• make a certified copy of a British passport
• issue a supporting letter for adoption in Thailand
• issue a visa transfer letter
• issue a supporting letter for a Thai nationality application

Before applying for one of our services contact the relevant Thai authority to find out what you need. This could be the local district office (amphur/amphoe), immigration office, ministries or another authority in Thailand, the UK or a third country.

Check that the document(s) we are able to provide will be accepted by the relevant authority and make sure you select the most appropriate service.

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/notarial-and-documentary-services-guide-for-thailand#services-we-provide-in-thailand

 

No mention of authenticating UK-issued death certificates.

 

 

[Liverpool Lou]

28 minutes ago, userabcd said:

Once again proves money in a bank account is not owned by the ones whose names are on the account and whose money is deposited in the account.

No. it does not prove that.  What it proves is that the banks have a procedure to follow after the death of an account holder and it seems from the wording of the OP that this woman did not inform the bank of her husband's death at the time as she is required to do by law.  That would prompt enquiries.

[Liverpool Lou]

1 hour ago, prakhonchai nick said:

Surely what they are doing is totally wrong.  There is no reason why the widow cannot access money in a joint account,

Did she advise the bank of his death at the time of his death and present the death certificate or did she "overlook" that? 

Banks have to be advised of the death of account holders at the time of the death, if she didn't do that until a time that suited her, red flags would be raised.

[OneMoreFarang]

I don't want to hijack this thread, but it would be interesting to know what is the best procedure to setup such account to make sure the surviving person has full access without delay.

I also plan to setup such an account for my gf. In case that I die she should have full access to all the money in that account right away (to pay bills, etc.). And she and I should also have independent full access to that account when we live. Obviously there is some trust involved. But it's good to have someone to get money out of the bank in emergencies. 

 

And in case she dies first, which is unlikely but obviously not impossible, then I should have full access.

I wouldn't put all my money into such a joint account because I don't want that she runs away with all the money. But for emergencies it is a good idea that she has access to some money.

[Liverpool Lou]

26 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

And, as far as I know, many of those regulations are there to protect us, the honest bank customers. 

Yes, and a woman not informing her bank of the death of her joint account holder but continuing to take money out (regardless of her apparent ignorance) is a big red flag to a bank.

[Liverpool Lou]

29 minutes ago, prakhonchai nick said:

Joint account, husband dead, It is her money. proof of death provided.

Proof of death provided years after his death and only when she was forced to provide it, yes?  By law, she is obligated to inform the bank of the death of its account holder at the time of his death.

[OneMoreFarang]

28 minutes ago, prakhonchai nick said:

Sorry disagree. Joint account, husband dead, It is her money. proof of death provided.

I wonder if that is true.

I.e. if there was a million dollar in that account, the husband or they together had kids. Then (at least for some nationalities) the kids will inherit some of that money. Like: 1 million assets for husband and wife together, husband dies, his half (0.5 million) will be inherited by his wife and his children - not just his wife!

Obviously there might be lots of other details, but you get the idea. 

[Liverpool Lou]

37 minutes ago, prakhonchai nick said:

Sorry disagree. Joint account, husband dead, It is her money. proof of death provided.

Sue the bank, then.   Or wait for them to complete their process that should have been started by the widow years ago.

[Liquorice]

16 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Services we provide in Thailand

Consular staff can provide the following services only:

• administer an affirmation for the purpose of marriage under Thai law
• make a certified copy of a British passport
• issue a supporting letter for adoption in Thailand
• issue a visa transfer letter
• issue a supporting letter for a Thai nationality application

Before applying for one of our services contact the relevant Thai authority to find out what you need. This could be the local district office (amphur/amphoe), immigration office, ministries or another authority in Thailand, the UK or a third country.

Check that the document(s) we are able to provide will be accepted by the relevant authority and make sure you select the most appropriate service.

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/notarial-and-documentary-services-guide-for-thailand#services-we-provide-in-thailand

 

No mention of authenticating UK-issued death certificates.

 

 

There is a legal procedure to follow to have any foreign document accepted as legitimate by Thai authorities.

As with marriage to a Thai, the BE can attest an affidavit to marry, but if widowed/divorce you must produce said document.
This is because the BE have access to Public records in the UK. (Birth, Death, Divorce) and can authenticate those documents as being genuine.

 

Alternatively, they may tell you that the UK death certificate should be first authenticated by the Home Office in Milton Keynes, then legalised by the Thai Embassy in London. This is then translated into Thai and legalised by Thailand Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

Without that vignette being attached by the MFA, the document could be a forgery.

 

I suspect the bank are making enquiries through the British Embassy to authenticate the Death certificate is genuine - could take months.
I'd advise you contact the BE yourself.

[Liverpool Lou]

3 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

I suspect the bank are making enquiries through the British Embassy to authenticate the Death certificate is genuine - could take months.
I'd advise you contact the BE yourself.

No reason for the Embassy to discuss it with him as a third party.