British tourists to Thailand: Are you really covered? Travel insurance warning for medical emergencies

[Liverpool Lou]

3 hours ago, ChipButty said:

3 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

The FCO puts out a pretty strict warning about riding a motorcycle in Thailand 

 

 

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/thailand/safety-and-security
 

 

Expand  

Not many people read that, 

Well, that's not the FCO's fault!

[Liverpool Lou]

3 hours ago, sqwakvfr said:

In essence all insurance companies can find a way out of paying on claims or minimize the amount they pay.  

 

But they don't do that with legitimate claims.   Seems that a lot of posters here think that insurers should provide cover for circumstances that were not paid for by the premium.

[Liverpool Lou]

2 hours ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

There wouldn't be many surprises if people would read and understand the terms and conditions of an insurance policy, preferably before purchasing it.

 

The insurance industry does not use "small print" to describe a policy's terms, conditions and exclusions. These clauses are printed using the same size type as the rest of the policy and it is disappointing to see the media perpetuate this trope. Those citing "small print" are those who didn't bother to read their policy before they purchased it.

 

Insurers have every right to impose limitations on what they will cover and I don't think it should surprise anyone that hazardous activities like bungee jumping or motorcycling without a helmet would be excluded. Insurers are well aware of the frequency and severity of injuries involving these pursuits, certainly more so than most of those who would undertake them.

 

Purchasing a policy online directly from an insurer may be convenient, but this means that the policyholder won't have the assistance and commercial influence of a major insurance broker behind them if they have issues with claims. When I worked for an insurer, one of the first questions raised when there was an issue with a claim was "who is the broker". The insurer did not want to jeopardize the relationship with the broker, so would take a more favorable view towards paying the claim from the outset.

 

It does matter which insurance company you use. Coverages can vary as can claims-paying ability and attitude. A good broker will steer their clients towards insurers that treat their clients and their claims fairly and professionally. 

 

A policyholder should not hesitate to approach the insurance regulator if their claim has been denied incorrectly.

An AN poster making a rational statement, very unusual here.  It won't go down well, though!

[ChipButty]

Even walking along the road where I live can be dangerous I saw it happen one night as I was driving home not to far away from home the road is quite narrow and not well lit, this lunatic on a bike was constantly trying to get around me from both sides, I passed 3 people walking on my passenger side, and all of a sudden the guy on the bike made a dash to go up the inside of me and slammed into the back of the people walking, I could see in my rear view mirror he had come off the bike and the 3 people on the ground, it was impossible for me to stop on that stretch of road could have caused another accident,  

[ChipButty]

7 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Well, that's not the FCO's fault!

I didn't say it was did i? 

[Liverpool Lou]

2 hours ago, koolkarl said:

Then you have the solvency issue of the insurance company itself. 

What issue is that? Which western insurers are going broke and being unable to pay claims?

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, SS1 said:

The main problem is if the insurance company doesn't clearly define the hazardous activities that are not covered and use vague wording in their policy. This essentially gives them the power to reject much any claim if they deem your sports activity / transport hazardous. 

 

With Luma Health I use for global IDP insurance, they actually gave a very clear definition including a list of the sports and circumstances that are not covered. 

Can you post that list ?....   (screen print of that policy section). 

- I think it was both April and LUMA that I had to push to give me a list a number of years ago, its very good of LUMA to now provide specifics. 

[The Fugitive]

1 hour ago, worrab said:

I think I have related this story before but here goes. Back in 2014 I came here on a holiday and met up with my girlfriend, now wife, and flew up to Chiang Mai from Bangkok. Whilst there I fell seriously ill and popped into the local hospital. Long story short, transferred to Larna Hospital where I went under the knife for possible appendicitis. Surgeon removed healthy appendix and therefore suspected diverticulitis. It was so long op to remove part of the colon and after a few days left to continue the holiday.

No, back in on blues and twos 2 nights later and another major op as I had a sepsis leak. Came out of the op with a colostomy bag!! This was a temporary fix for 9 months to allow my colon to heal naturally. Anyway had to cancel flights due to time in hospital and had to rebook to Bangkok then myself back to UK.

The total bill came to just over £ 7000 which included new flights for the two of us and bank charges as I was paying upfront off my UK debit card. Thai hospitals are fantastic for itemised bills so sent everything off to the insurance company. This company was linked to my Lloyds Bank card which I had originally used to book the holiday therefore automatic cover. Paid out within 2 weeks!!

Absolutely fantastic (financially)! Sorry that you endured at least one unnecessary operation. Were you ever able to verify whether you actually did have diverticulitis and/or that the second operation was necessary? If your condition could have been treated by medicines only then the third nasty operation would have been avoided. 

 

Was your current account with Lloyds one of the 'package' ones which included various benefits (such as AA/RAC breakdown service and travel insurance) for which you paid a monthly fee?   

[richard_smith237]

25 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

4 hours ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

Some 35 years ago with nothing to read on a Thai island I pulled out the travel insurance package from my backpack and had a read. Turned out any accident involving anything with an engine was not covered. $1,000 down the drain and never bought travel insurance again

Just reading the policy coverage would have saved you wasting your money, no one to blame but you.

Recently when switching medical insurance policies (for my Wife and Son) I narrowed the choice down to a selection of 5 Companies / Policies - I requested the details (the detailed Policy cover - including what some would call the small print). 

 

I was told I could only receive this once confirming / taking out the cover. 

I’m not sure if this was down the broker or the individual companies themselves. 

 

 

 

 

 

[The Fugitive]

6 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

What issue is that? Which western insurers are going broke and being unable to pay claims?

Definitely remember a UK motor insurance company going under in the 1970's. Can't remember the name though. A guy I worked with had taken out his motor insurance with them and lost his premium. 

[Liverpool Lou]

3 minutes ago, The Fugitive said:

Definitely remember a UK motor insurance company going under in the 1970's. Can't remember the name though. 

Ah, ok, 50 years ago, very relevant.

[Andrew65]

11 minutes ago, The Fugitive said:

Absolutely fantastic (financially)! Sorry that you endured at least one unnecessary operation. Were you ever able to verify whether you actually did have diverticulitis and/or that the second operation was necessary? If your condition could have been treated by medicines only then the third nasty operation would have been avoided. 

 

Was your current account with Lloyds one of the 'package' ones which included various benefits (such as AA/RAC breakdown service and travel insurance) for which you paid a monthly fee?   

Many years ago an old friend who still lives in Thailand reckoned that the 'travel insurance' that came with his gold Mastercard would cover any medical expenses whilst living in Thailand. I expressed strong doubts that this would be the case! (He subsequently had an operation that cost 1 million Baht+, for which I think he just stumped-up for, quite a wealthy man).

Edited April 10, 2023 by Andrew65

[Terry2905]

3 hours ago, WHansen said:

Insurance companies globally (not just British) are thieves and deliberately hide what's not covered, wether it be home, vehicle, business, health or travel insurance.

 

Yes, everybody should read and understand the policy they are purchasing but it can be a minefield if you are not fairly well educated or too young to understand that insurance is legalised robbery.

The insurers will do everything in their power to avoid paying out.

 

I am 1 the unfortunate individuals who had an insurance claim (locally purchased from a reputable company) cancelled and not paid out for an urgent heart operation. I "accidently missed" declaring a previous condition. 2 pages of "yes or no", and I missed answering 1 yes!

 

Why?

 

Because the application form quite clearly stated if I had been diagnosed with a mental health issue in the last 10 years.

 

Yes, I had been misdiagnosed with a variety of mental health issues, ranging from anxiety, insomnia, MDD, bipolar 1, bipolar 2, et al! My records were from more than 10 years ago, but still on record at Bangkok Hospital. 

 

And some of the questions are there deliberately to refuse payment! For example? Have you ever had a headache in the last 10 years! Hmm! Does that include the occasional hangover! LOL!

 

I did declare all my previous pre existing conditions, but even though I had never been diagnosed or treated for a heart condition, my heart operation claim was refused!

 

And now, because I have had a health insurance policy refused/cancelled, no insurance company will cover me!

 

Thankfully I am on a non O extension, so insurance is not mandatory.

 

Anyway, the crux of the matter is that 1 very small mistake in the application form resulted in me "losing" the 65,000 baht cover fee, and then having to pay out of my own pocket 450,000 baht hospital fee for the heart operation.

 

I did appeal to the local insurance company, telling them that it was a very genuine misunderstanding/error on the application form, but to no avail!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[The Fugitive]

15 minutes ago, ChipButty said:

Even walking along the road where I live can be dangerous I saw it happen one night as I was driving home not to far away from home the road is quite narrow and not well lit, this lunatic on a bike was constantly trying to get around me from both sides, I passed 3 people walking on my passenger side, and all of a sudden the guy on the bike made a dash to go up the inside of me and slammed into the back of the people walking, I could see in my rear view mirror he had come off the bike and the 3 people on the ground, it was impossible for me to stop on that stretch of road could have caused another accident,  

Definitely as case for pavements where possible and for the authorities to ensure that they are kept clear for pedestrians to walk upon. 

[chang1]

12 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

The No Helmets / Riding while drunk / without a licence etc are also issues - Insurance companies could be a lot clearer with their exclusions, particularly in key areas of cover. 

Why should insurance companies have to state the obvious? A simple statement that putting yourself in danger is not covered should be enough for those activities. If someone can't be bothered to secure (not just wear) on a helmet when riding a motorcycle, why should an insurance company pay for their preventable head  injuries?

Many times me and my family have been the only ones on a bus or minivan wearing seat belts. The other passengers may feel cool and look down on me but in a crash I am far more likely to survive uninjured. I always take safety seriously. I will choose the best helmet in the rack not the prettiest. I will choose the bike with disc brakes instead of useless drum brakes. I will check everything works including lights. Accidents will happen so do what you can to improve your chances of survival and you will be much more likely to be covered by insurance.

It is impossible to list every activity and your responsibilities so use some common sense and don't be lazy.

If it is illegal to do something in the UK, what makes people think a UK insurance company is going to cover you to do it in a foreign country?

[chang1]

16 minutes ago, Andrew65 said:

Many years ago an old friend who still lives in Thailand reckoned that the 'travel insurance' that came with his gold Mastercard would cover any medical expenses whilst living in Thailand. I expressed strong doubts that this would be the case! (He subsequently had an operation that cost 1 million Baht+, for which I think he just stumped-up for, quite a wealthy man).

I have that account and it is limited to 31 days I think or maybe 45 days per trip and I think you must be a UK resident. Certainly not any good for living abroad.

It is clearly stated so he had no excuse for getting that wrong.

Edited April 10, 2023 by chang1

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

41 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

It comes down to age as well....  when I was young I was under the impression that the travel insurance provided by my ‘credit card’ sufficient cover... why wouldn’t I ????.... when I took the card that was one of the main points of the advertising (full travel insurance) so when I received the card I thought I was covered whenever I travelled (turns out I needed to book the travel through the ‘cards travel provider, or some such similar technicality’). 

 

I’m sure many others have fallen into that trap / been mistaken and look back and realise they were lucky. 

 

 

The No Helmets / Riding while drunk / without a licence etc are also issues - I know this is common sense, but Insurance companies could be a lot clearer with their exclusions, particularly in key areas of cover. 

(i.e. on front page - NOT COVERED IF RIDING WITHOUT A LICENCE, WITHOUT A HELMET OR WHILE INTOXICATED)

 

 

Regarding the main article: 

Since when was this considered a ‘hazardous sport’ ??....   I’ve done this, my family have all done this - IF such activities are considered dangerous insurance policies need to **list them, not hide behind vague wording ‘DANGEROUS ACTIVITIES’ because what I considered dangerous may be different and if an insurance company is not specific on this, their wording simply gives them wiggle room when the underwriter decides the claim is too high and ’rafting down a river’ or ‘falling off an elephant’ (or horse etc) was a ‘DANGEROUS ACTIVITY’....

 

 

This is untrue - Driving in Thailand on a UK licence is legal, there is also misconception that an IDP is needed (it not for a Licence issued in English from a country which is signatory to 1968 Vienna convention on road traffic).

(*Note: if the driver is a resident (i.e. on a Non-Immigrant Visa) they need to have a Thai Licence).

 

I don't care to get into the nth debate about these facts and the various interpretations surrounding the vagueness of the Thai Land Traffic Act etc (That said: I would advise any tourist to also get an IDP and any resident to get a Thai licence to avoid such debates with ether the police or an insurance company etc).

 

----------

 

**Regarding Elephant tracking being considered a dangerous sport. 

No insurance policy I have ever read mentions this. 

A while back it took me two months to obtain clarification from an insurance company regarding their wording ‘dangerous activities’...    their response was repeatedly vague and ambiguous... 

At one point the response was something along the lines of “cover (for skiing) will be decided upon based on the extent of the injuries in the event of an accident”, when pushed on this they responded that they’d decided IF in the event of injury they’d interpret if we were skiing dangerously based on the extent of injury... Which, IMO was utterly ridiculous. 

Eventually after a lot of back and forth and pushing them into corners I received a list and of specifics regarding cover. 

- Skiing (any country On Piste and / or Off-piste with a guide) - [full cover]

- Bicycling (in Thailand, on roads) - [full cover]

- Mountain biking  (on and off road) - [full cover]

- Wakeboarding / water skiing  (in Thailand) - [full cover]

- Motorcycling (in Thailand, on roads) - [full cover when licensed]

- Motorcycle Taxi  (in Thailand) - [full cover / no mention of helmet or not]

- Taxi  (in Thailand) - [full cover / no mention of seatbelt wearing or not]

- Diving - [full cover - when recreational diving IF certified (PADI) or with an instructor]

- Competitive Sports - [when not professional - fully covered]

 

Things I didn’t think of... 

- Rafting / Elephant riding / Bungee jumping / SkyDiving / *crossing the road !!!... 

 

(*potetnially one of the most dangerous activities in Thailand !)

 

The Point with my List is that it took two months to push the insurance company to be specific - their initial ambiguity provided them with sufficient wiggle room to avoid a claim, I accused them of such. 

At that point I was a few months away from needing renewal cover and wanted to ‘win’ and push them to give specific responses just to see how far they would go to avoid specifics and potentially avoid responsibility.

IMO, they’re [insurance companies] are all as bad as each other and look for the smallest of reasons not to pay out. 

 

 

 

 

 

You did the right thing in seeking clarification. It should not have taken two months to extract this information from the insurer, however. 

 

I suspect the vague answers came from a lower-level underwriter or claims handler and your query did not receive appropriate attention until it was escalated to a senior person by your repeated requests.

[Andrew65]

4 minutes ago, chang1 said:

I have that account and it is limited to 31 days I think or maybe 45 days per trip and I think you must be a UK resident. Certainly not any good for living abroad.

It is clearly stated so he had no excuse for getting that wrong.

There's the fact that his Mastercard bill/statement was sent to his home address which was now in Thailand rather than Ireland, he was probably covered when holdaying in Thailand, as he originally did.

[chang1]

20 minutes ago, Terry2905 said:

I am 1 the unfortunate individuals who had an insurance claim (locally purchased from a reputable company) cancelled and not paid out for an urgent heart operation. I "accidently missed" declaring a previous condition. 2 pages of "yes or no", and I missed answering 1 yes!

 

Why?

 

Because the application form quite clearly stated if I had been diagnosed with a mental health issue in the last 10 years.

 

Yes, I had been misdiagnosed with a variety of mental health issues, ranging from anxiety, insomnia, MDD, bipolar 1, bipolar 2, et al! My records were from more than 10 years ago, but still on record at Bangkok Hospital. 

 

And some of the questions are there deliberately to refuse payment! For example? Have you ever had a headache in the last 10 years! Hmm! Does that include the occasional hangover! LOL!

 

I did declare all my previous pre existing conditions, but even though I had never been diagnosed or treated for a heart condition, my heart operation claim was refused!

 

And now, because I have had a health insurance policy refused/cancelled, no insurance company will cover me!

 

Thankfully I am on a non O extension, so insurance is not mandatory.

 

Anyway, the crux of the matter is that 1 very small mistake in the application form resulted in me "losing" the 65,000 baht cover fee, and then having to pay out of my own pocket 450,000 baht hospital fee for the heart operation.

 

I did appeal to the local insurance company, telling them that it was a very genuine misunderstanding/error on the application form, but to no avail!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is rough. I think UK insurers in that position would pay out as it is not related to the undisclosed condition but if you had a mental condition you probably would not be covered.

[chang1]

31 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Recently when switching medical insurance policies (for my Wife and Son) I narrowed the choice down to a selection of 5 Companies / Policies - I requested the details (the detailed Policy cover - including what some would call the small print). 

 

I was told I could only receive this once confirming / taking out the cover. 

I’m not sure if this was down the broker or the individual companies themselves. 

 

 

 

 

 

Did you try their websites as they should be available there?

[The Theory]

Their claims were not rejected due to "not wearing helmets". Rejected due to insurers excuses for not paying for any major case. 

[worrab]

38 minutes ago, The Fugitive said:

Absolutely fantastic (financially)! Sorry that you endured at least one unnecessary operation. Were you ever able to verify whether you actually did have diverticulitis and/or that the second operation was necessary? If your condition could have been treated by medicines only then the third nasty operation would have been avoided. 

 

Was your current account with Lloyds one of the 'package' ones which included various benefits (such as AA/RAC breakdown service and travel insurance) for which you paid a monthly fee?   

I definitely did have diverticulitis and the second operation actually saved my life!! I have pictures from the first operation showing the healthy appendix and showing the affected part of the colon which had to be cut out. In effect it was actually 2 life saving ops due to the condition of the colon and there was no way medicines would have cleared it up.

And yes, it was my current account and debit card that had the benefits but I do not remember paying a monthly fee. Funnily enough I had forgotten this and had also taken out other travel insurance!! Doh!

[Liverpool Lou]

3 hours ago, koolkarl said:

Then you have the solvency issue of the insurance company itself. 

It's no issue.  Protection for policy holders is provided by the FSCS in the UK

[Kalasin Jo]

6 hours ago, Trip Hop said:

There are quite a few that fall into this category but don’t tar everyone with the same brush.

 

Most policies along with flights and holidays are bought online these days so not really over the counter. With the insurers that I use, everything is straight forward. Simple table of the 4 levels of cover available containing a summary of the differences between them. Click one button to see the full policy schedule for each which is straight forward to read and doesn’t contain any real small print as such. And before you ask, yes they do pay out!

Read every single document insurers provide before parting with your money. There should always be full terms, conditions and exclusions offered by reputable insurers before you buy. If these are not available before you buy them beware. It's too late if the send you these after payment.

Of course insurers are companies with shareholders so want to make a profit to pay dividends ( different with Lloyds of London where a syndicate of individuals back the policy....but they still expect profit).  On claims some don't quibble unless suspicious of the claim, some fight tooth and nail to decline a claim. All will decline a claim arising from circumstances which breach the policy terms, conditions and exclusions

[Liverpool Lou]

2 hours ago, Foghorn said:

Don’t trust insurance companies they lie and deceive you , that’s the moral of the story .

No, that's your moral of your story but it is false.

[Liverpool Lou]

2 hours ago, kingstonkid said:

How many of us go for walks at night in places like =Khao Toa

"...like Khao Toa".

You'd be safe there (wherever that is) although some people would say that you shouldn't do that in Koh Tao even though 99.9% of visitors never have a problem there, either.

[Liverpool Lou]

2 hours ago, sidneybear said:

Insurance companies are profit making businesses, so they have a knee jerk reaction to try to wriggle out of paying, hoping that claimants will give up.

"...they have a knee jerk reaction to try to wriggle out of paying..."

 

Complete cobblers from another poster who has no idea how insurance companies operate.

Edited April 10, 2023 by Liverpool Lou

[Liverpool Lou]

1 hour ago, spidermike007 said:

It is the M.O. of most insurance companies to turn down as many claims as they can, find any excuse not to pay

It is the MO of all insurance companies to pay out all genuine claims that are covered by the policy. 

The financial liability of insurers' paying claims has little effect on them as insurance companies are covered by their own insurance for those liabilities which are massively outweighed by premium revenue.

[Liverpool Lou]

1 hour ago, spidermike007 said:

 And one has to bear in mind they operate like a mafia.

One also has to bear in mind that that is cobblers.

[Andrew65]

14 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

"...they have a knee jerk reaction to try to wriggle out of paying..."

 

Complete cobblers from another poster who has no idea how insurance companies operate.

There's a big difference between an 'illness' and an 'accident' in such things (maybe obviously?). An old Scottish friend came down with meningitis shortly after arriving in Thailand. He spent a month in B'grad hospital and nearly died, He was then flown back to the UK in business class with a doctor & nurse whom the insurance company had flown over. I reckoned the cost was £70,000 (+).He had no complaints at all about his travel insurance. The only thing being, subsequent travel insurance would have been prohibitively expensive, so he never again visited Thailand.

Another old friend, Bob from Manchester, was 89 years old, and did mention the 'extortionate' amount of money that he had to pay for travel insurance (he had some 'pre-existing' conditions).

Edited April 10, 2023 by Andrew65