BITCOINERS, please help me to understand.

[Neeranam]

On 4/13/2023 at 12:52 AM, sammieuk1 said:

Many have ended up with bits of coin where their nest egg once rested is all I know????

What absolute nonsense. All long term investors that I know have made heaps. By long term I mean 3 year+. Only the ones that bought in at a stupid time, like housewives and sold when it went down lost money. 

[Neeranam]

On 4/12/2023 at 11:33 PM, swissie said:

As I understand it, while buying Bitcoins I get a combination of numbers that my baker around the corner will not accept as currency and give me no  loaf of bread for a part of my numerical combination.

The baker round the corner from me happily accepts my metal crypto card. 

I use it at BluePort Hua hin to buy bread, and also Tesco Lotus. try again.

[Neeranam]

On 4/12/2023 at 11:33 PM, swissie said:

In my younger days

Out of interest, when did you first hear about bitcoin?

[Neeranam]

On 4/13/2023 at 8:46 AM, Seppius said:

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4561719-warren-buffett-has-exposure-to-bitcoin-so-should-you

 

As of February of this last year, it is known that Warren Buffett invested $1 billion in Nubank (NU), which was labelled as a crypto-friendly bank. After recent events, calling Nubank crypto-friendly might be an understatement.

 

However, Buffett must see some potential in at least some new financial technologies since he sold "traditional" financial companies in favour of Nubank.

Exactly. Even the biggest Bitcoin haters and Luddites are now investing in it somehow, including idiots like Jamie Dimon who has continually slagged off Bitcoin, to cause FUD and a price drop, whilst buying it up. 

I really don't understand people like the OP who seem to trust banks and don't like Bitcoin, which of course was invented because of the corrupt Bankers.

[patman30]

17 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

The baker round the corner from me happily accepts my metal crypto card. 

I use it at BluePort Hua hin to buy bread, and also Tesco Lotus. try again.

you clearly don't understand how things work
or are just misleading to try and make a point
you spend FIAT when paying by card
(which you should know as i expect you must top up the card)

if not spending fiat, you would not need the card

Edited April 14, 2023 by patman30

[Neeranam]

9 hours ago, save the frogs said:

you're betting the farm?

you crypto pushers sound level-headed and not at all like sleazy used car salesmen and degenerate gamblers.

 

I literally bet my house in Khon Kaen. I sold it and am renting now until BTC goes to around $200k

I bought Bitcoin last year between $16,800 and $18,800.

 

 

[Neeranam]

1 minute ago, patman30 said:

you clearly don't understand how things work
you spend FIAT when paying by card

if not spending fiat, you would not need the card

The Bitcoin is changed to fiat just before, same thing. 

Same with my Revolut card.

I like using the card, just bought lottery tickets, milk, and eggs in the COOP in Scotland. I get 3% back in crypto. I also got free 1st class lounge when travelling last week and get free Netflix, Spotify, etc. It's done me very well. Also, I obviously  don't pay tax on the crypto I am spending.

[patman30]

1 minute ago, Neeranam said:

The Bitcoin is changed to fiat just before, same thing. 

Same with my Revolut card.

I like using the card, just bought lottery tickets, milk, and eggs in the COOP in Scotland. I get 3% back in crypto. I also got free 1st class lounge when travelling last week and get free Netflix, Spotify, etc. It's done me very well. Also, I obviously  don't pay tax on the crypto I am spending.

again
you are spending FIAT.....????‍♂️

[Neeranam]

16 minutes ago, patman30 said:

again
you are spending FIAT.....????‍♂️

again

I send bitcoin to my card when I want to buy something, so I am spending my Bitcoin.

[patman30]

13 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

again

I send bitcoin to my card when I want to buy something, so I am spending my Bitcoin.

"The Bitcoin is changed to fiat just before" -Neeranam

you are spending fiat, the baker accepts fiat
sorry but you clearly lack understanding of Bitcoin
going by all your comments

[Lemsta69]

1 minute ago, patman30 said:

"The Bitcoin is changed to fiat just before" -Neeranam

you are spending fiat, the baker accepts fiat
sorry but you clearly lack understanding of Bitcoin
going by all your comments

Correct. Also the conversion from BTC to fiat costs him a pretty penny because Crypto(.)com only let you do such conversions inside their app and not on their exchange.

 

The spread for in-app card top-ups is horrendous, or was the last time I used it about a year ago. That, and the crappy VISA exchange rates make the fancy metal composite card a paperweight. 

 

At no time in the process he describes does the Bitcoin network ever get used, it's all off-chain and registered only in CdC's database. The merchant has no idea that crypto is involved unless they feel the weight of the card and start asking questions.

 

Now if he said that he used the Lightning Network to pay the merchant I'd be more impressed but even then you're using a third-party and not directly interacting with the BTC network.

 

And don't get me started on the fact that you can't get a fancy metal card if you're living in Thailand so one would have to lie to Crypto(.)com about one's place of residence to get one (and buy and stake a considerable amount of CRO to get all the alleged perks).

 

We can't abide that sort of fraud now can we? What's next, using an agent to get one's "Retirement Visa"? ????

[Lemsta69]

Almost forgot...if you sell BTC to fiat and the sell price was higher than the buy price then that's a CGT event. Either the UK or Thailand will be expecting their cut. Not paying tax is even worse than using an agent! ????

[Neeranam]

14 minutes ago, Lemsta69 said:

Correct. Also the conversion from BTC to fiat costs him a pretty penny because Crypto(.)com only let you do such conversions inside their app and not on their exchange.

Not correct, I can convert to USDC on the exchange then hours onto card for no charge. 

[Lemsta69]

8 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Not correct, I can convert to USDC on the exchange then hours onto card for no charge. 

Well I'm going to have to take your word on that because last time I did that the hidden in-app spread from USDC to AUD was atrocious, something like 2 or 3 per cent. 

 

And that was on top of the appalling 0.2% trading fee on the exchange, hence why I stopped using CdC's services.

[patman30]

23 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Not correct, I can convert to USDC on the exchange then hours onto card for no charge. 

then you are not using bitcoin with your card
you are using USDC
selling USDC for fiat and spending the fiat....LOL

[Seppius]

21 hours ago, dingdongrb said:

I hate all bitcoin discussion and avoid it.......  why?

 

Because I am still kicking myself in the @$$....  I read about bitcoin in Investor magazine back in the mid 90s. One coin was going for $0.25 USD....  Yes, a friggin quarter!

 

At that time online trading wasn't occurring. I told myself to call my broker and buy $100 worth....  I never did!

 

I am sure if I had bought any I probably would have sold well before it hit the peak of $60k.

I think you may have your dates mixed up.

 

January 2009

Bitcoin was the first cryptocurrency created and is now the most traded and well-known. It was first launched in January 2009 by a computer programmer or group of programmers under the pseudonym Satoshi Nakamoto, whose actual identity has never been verified.

 

https://money.usnews.com/investing/articles/the-history-of-bitcoin

 

Also it was pennies when first launched

[fdsa]

1 hour ago, patman30 said:

again
you are spending FIAT.....????‍♂️

Neeranam just promotes his crshítto.com card for a commission, you could simply ignore his advertising.

[Lemsta69]

4 minutes ago, Seppius said:

I think you may have your dates mixed up.

 

January 2009

Bitcoin was the first cryptocurrency created and is now the most traded and well-known. It was first launched in January 2009 by a computer programmer or group of programmers under the pseudonym Satoshi Nakamoto, whose actual identity has never been verified.

 

https://money.usnews.com/investing/articles/the-history-of-bitcoin

 

Also it was pennies when first launched

It was free when it was first launched, you could mine Bitcoin on your desktop. Well I guess not entirely free as the CPU time costs money.

[Seppius]

Anyway I do not hold any Bitcoin, but have a ton of XRP that I bought $0.37 a while back, now trading $0.53

 

They have an ongoing legal case with the SEC, which if they win will see it move up to over $1 IMHO

Ripple/XRP have some of the best partnerships in the space

 

https://ripple.com/customers/

[patman30]

5 minutes ago, Seppius said:

Also it was pennies when first launched

There was no price when it first launched????

[Hummin]

People believe in imaginary gods, and people believe in imaginary values! Bitcoin is a imaginary value as long people believe in it! 

[Neeranam]

1 hour ago, Lemsta69 said:

Well I'm going to have to take your word on that because last time I did that the hidden in-app spread from USDC to AUD was atrocious, something like 2 or 3 per cent. 

 

And that was on top of the appalling 0.2% trading fee on the exchange, hence why I stopped using CdC's services.

Well I get back 3%, and havnt noticed any large payments, i use it all the time. 

[Neeranam]

30 minutes ago, Seppius said:

Anyway I do not hold any Bitcoin, but have a ton of XRP that I bought $0.37 a while back, now trading $0.53

 

They have an ongoing legal case with the SEC, which if they win will see it move up to over $1 IMHO

Ripple/XRP have some of the best partnerships in the space

 

https://ripple.com/customers/

I bought that first, $0.006 in early 2016.

Sold most at $2.40

[dingdongrb]

1 hour ago, Seppius said:

I think you may have your dates mixed up.

 

January 2009

Bitcoin was the first cryptocurrency created and is now the most traded and well-known. It was first launched in January 2009 by a computer programmer or group of programmers under the pseudonym Satoshi Nakamoto, whose actual identity has never been verified.

 

https://money.usnews.com/investing/articles/the-history-of-bitcoin

 

Also it was pennies when first launched

I understand what you say and with even doing a little Googling myself I come up with 2009. I may be getting older but I haven't lost my memory. I know I read about bitcoin back in the 90s as I was living in The USA at the time and reading various media such as 'Money', 'Financial Times', 'WSJ', 'Individual Investor', etc... back then. In 2009 I was then doing online trading and living in China.

 

Maybe what I was read was someone predicting the foreseeable future. Sort of like when I read back in the 90s that the future would be about 'information', the gathering of and selling information. Yeah, back in the day when you actually needed a phonebook....  ????

[Hummin]

13 minutes ago, dingdongrb said:

I understand what you say and with even doing a little Googling myself I come up with 2009. I may be getting older but I haven't lost my memory. I know I read about bitcoin back in the 90s as I was living in The USA at the time and reading various media such as 'Money', 'Financial Times', 'WSJ', 'Individual Investor', etc... back then. In 2009 I was then doing online trading and living in China.

 

Maybe what I was read was someone predicting the foreseeable future. Sort of like when I read back in the 90s that the future would be about 'information', the gathering of and selling information. Yeah, back in the day when you actually needed a phonebook....  ????

Maybe you mix it up with Block chain, 

 

First proposed as a research project in 1991, the blockchain concept predated its first widespread application in use: Bitcoin, in 2009.

 

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/b/blockchain.asp

[Neeranam]

3 hours ago, Lemsta69 said:

And don't get me started on the fact that you can't get a fancy metal card if you're living in Thailand so one would have to lie to Crypto(.)com about one's place of residence to get one (and buy and stake a considerable amount of CRO to get all the alleged perks).

 

We can't abide that sort of fraud now can we? What's next, using an agent to get one's "Retirement Visa"? ????

Being a dual citizen has advantages. 

I stayed about $800 worth of CRO which has increased substantially. 

 

I would never pay corrupt immigration officers to bypass immigration requirements, illegal immigrants are a scourge on society. ????

[Neeranam]

1 hour ago, dingdongrb said:

I understand what you say and with even doing a little Googling myself I come up with 2009. I may be getting older but I haven't lost my memory. I know I read about bitcoin back in the 90s as I was living in The USA at the time and reading various media such as 'Money', 'Financial Times', 'WSJ', 'Individual Investor', etc... back then. In 2009 I was then doing online trading and living in China.

 

Maybe what I was read was someone predicting the foreseeable future. Sort of like when I read back in the 90s that the future would be about 'information', the gathering of and selling information. Yeah, back in the day when you actually needed a phonebook....  ????

Maybe this from 1988

https://bitcoin.co.uk/1988-economist-magazine-prediction-come-true/

[swissie]

On 4/13/2023 at 1:28 AM, eisfeld said:

Very simple. Any asset is worth what other people are willing to buy it for. Nothing is directly backing Bitcoin in terms of physical assets. This is also the case for the Baht, Dollar, Euro or pretty much any other fiat currency since the backing with gold was abandoned. Physical assets in most cases will have some positive value left in the worst case (though in the extreme some might even have negative value i.e. you'll have to pay to get rid of it). As you might have noticed in the recent past, the value of a Dollar can vary quite a bit. Why? Because people changed their mind in terms of how much they value it.

 

Swissie you are calling Bitcoin just a "combination of numbers". This is a misleading way of thinking. Any information that is represented digitally is exactly that. The US nuclear launch codes are just a combination of numbers. How much do you think some evil powers would be willing to pay for them? Or how about the password to your bank account? It's all just a few bits. But there can be some real value assigned to these bits. And the value is exactly what the highest bidder might pay for it.

 

You should know because you said you traded commodities. Wait, halt. You actually didn't trade physical pork bellies. You speculated on digital derivative contracts that might then result in physical delivery or not. Actually on virtually all brokers they'll just force sell/buy the contracts on delivery date because their users don't actually want to receive or deliver these physical goods.

 

Anyone who says Bitcoin was a Ponzi Scheme does not know what the definition of a Ponzi Scheme is. It might be a terrible investment and you might lose all your money but that does not make it a Ponzi. One could argue it being a mania.

 

Now, what most people don't realize is that Bitcoin has some indirect backing. There are billions of dollars in mining hardware deployed. This creates an incentive for invested parties to keep the price as high as possible. Ironically this also represents a danger to Bitcoin because the Proof of Work mining mechanism is just incredibly wasteful in terms of energy. Bitcoin has also seen incredibly little development compared to other cryptocurrencies. Again this is a two sided sword. It made it more stable and safe but creates risk of being left behind eventually.

 

Also the only way for bitcoin to lose value is by people losing "faith" in it. Some kind of panic. Now, Bitcoin itself can't have something like a bank run because your coins can't just disappear like in a bank unless you keep them in an exchange (just don't). What could tank the value possibly is if governments were to ban it. There is also the eventually deflationary aspect to it that guarantees that over long timeframes the price has to go up as it becomes more scarce. This is the core reason why many think it's value will go up, and that in turn brings in all the other "investors" that don't understand much but don't want to miss out either.

Thanks eisfeld. Very helpful. Commodity Futures prices take their clue from the cash market price. Projecting the cash price into the future. That's why they are called "futures markets". That can lead to "Contago" or "Backwardation" situations. Finally backed by something tangible, the cash price of a commodity.

Not really comparable to "Cryptos".

[swissie]

Thanks guys. I am a bit wiser now. A few questions remain:

- The "production" of Bitcoins is called "mining". I read that the amount of Bitcoins that ever could be mined is limited to 21 Million coins. Why not more? Please explain. Surely we will not run out of numerical combinations.

- The "mining" uses already as much elctricity as the entire country of Morocco. "The Governements of this world" may find this unacceptable, if this trend continues.
-------------------
Many speculative bubbles have come and gone over time. Starting with the "Tulip Mania" in old Holland. 1 Tulip seed had the value of a downtown house, before the big crash. At least a tulip was something tangibe. One cold see it, smell it, touch it. On the other hand, most people have never seen, nor smelled, nor touched a Bitcoin.

I like "tangible things". Holding a 100 Dollar billl in my hands still gives me a warm feeling. Especially as long as the value of Cryptos is measured in form of US$.

The  word "Crypto" has it's origins in the old Greek language. Meaning: Mysterious, unexplainable, beyond comprehention. Food for thaught.

 

[Neeranam]

18 minutes ago, swissie said:

The "mining" uses already as much elctricity as the entire country of Morocco. "The Governements of this world" may find this unacceptable, if this trend continues.

All the banks in the world probably use more electricity than 10 Morroccos