What is a higher power in AA?

[likerdup1]

16 hours ago, Andy F said:

The General Service Office of AA in New York assured me that the AA program is open to "personal interpretation" I can assure you that many alcoholics have left AA or avoided trying the AA program because they felt unable to use God as a higher power. It is them that have been led astray by the sometimes rigid and closed -minded views of the more fundamentalist members

I would be interested to know what your definition of God (as used in AA literature) is?

[Yellowtail]

14 hours ago, Andy F said:

That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. If God works for you then great! A lot of sober members in AA don't believe in God. They pursue a spiritual awakening that doesn't require a believe in God. Those that pursue Buddhism are a case in point. The bottom line is that Bill always wanted to make AA ALL INCLUSIVE.  The spiritual principle of AA is that EVERYONE is welcome. The believers, atheists, agnostics and freethinkers. "The ONLY requirement for AA .membership is a desire to stop drinking"

Any other position is not AA. It's fundamentalism. Why AA even embraces the AA fundamentalists. "Live and let Live" If I helped to convince a cynical newcomer that it's not compulsory to believe in God to get sober and stay sober, if my blog convinces them that there are a whole load of other higher powers in AA that are just as effective then it was worth writing. You're a member of AA if you say you are. Irrespective of your personal belief system. 

Sorry, did I touch a nerve? 

 

Where did I say anything that would imply that anyone was not free to use whatever they like, or nothing as a Higher Power? 

 

 

[scorecard]

2 hours ago, likerdup1 said:

Please, any members of AA. I beg you to be considerate and understand that someone may be reading this WHO REALLY NEEDS HELP with alcoholism.

These constant arguments which have been precipitated by Andy F's repeated postings of fringe and alternate views on doing the AA program are:

1) Not doing any service to AA

2) Not doing any service to someone who might find this forum looking for ACTUAL HELP.

3) Not a healthy introduction to AA for anyone reading here new to AA.

I would kindly ask Mr. Andy F to consider that his views are

1) Not the norm as most people in AA find a Higher Power/God of their own understanding.

2) Have precipitated argument and dissension (this is against this forums rules!)

I will reiterate what I've said.

THIS FORUM IS FOR PEOPLE WHO NEED HELP and any talk of AA should be offering HELP! Not views other than what AA literature plainly states. AA literature is the foundation for our program of recovery.

It is only Andy F's opinion that people "get driven" away from AA about talk of God. He in no way can know the true statistics on this. From my experience and many that have gone before this happens rarely Especially if the group is a healthy group and explains the word God is used to describe ONES OWN PERSONAL CONCEPTION.

This forum is here to help people with a drinking problem.

Any postings concerning AA IMHO should be generic, normal, mainstream posts designed for ATTRACTION rather than promotion of fringe or alternate methods of the AA program such as "agnostic" methods or personal "interpretations".

Freedom of speech?

[Yellowtail]

11 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Freedom of speech?

This board is a commercial enterprise, freedom of speech does not apply. 

[likerdup1]

2 hours ago, Lacessit said:

It's extremely doubtful there is a higher power. There is only the power within individuals themselves to change, and the self-discipline to do it.

 

 

You have a misunderstanding about what alcoholism is. Do you think people who are alcoholic and want to quit have not tried most every form of self-discipline to quit or moderate?

 

By definition someone is alcoholic if they LACK the will power of self-discipline to moderate or stop altogether even though there is a very strong desire to do so.

 

I know. I'm one of them. I tried for several years to give it up for good and all trying every form of self discipline. No amount of will power of self discipline worked for very long. 6 months of abstinence at best.

 

I found out the reason I could not moderate or stop altogether for very long. I had become alcoholic.

 

I crossed the line from hard drinker to alcoholic.

 

There is a simple way to understand it.

 

All alcoholics are drunks but not all drunks are alcoholics.

 

There is a big difference between a hard drinker who can give it up on will power and the alcoholic who cannot.

Edited April 23, 2023 by likerdup1

[scorecard]

4 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

This board is a commercial enterprise, freedom of speech does not apply. 

Rubbish. 

[likerdup1]

15 hours ago, Andy F said:

That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. If God works for you then great! A lot of sober members in AA don't believe in God. They pursue a spiritual awakening that doesn't require a believe in God. Those that pursue Buddhism are a case in point. The bottom line is that Bill always wanted to make AA ALL INCLUSIVE.  The spiritual principle of AA is that EVERYONE is welcome. The believers, atheists, agnostics and freethinkers. "The ONLY requirement for AA .membership is a desire to stop drinking"

Any other position is not AA. It's fundamentalism. Why AA even embraces the AA fundamentalists. "Live and let Live" If I helped to convince a cynical newcomer that it's not compulsory to believe in God to get sober and stay sober, if my blog convinces them that there are a whole load of other higher powers in AA that are just as effective then it was worth writing. You're a member of AA if you say you are. Irrespective of your personal belief system. 

Andy, wondering where you get your statistics about "a lot" of sober members?

 

Of course membership in the fellowship is all inclusive. It has been for most of AA's existence.

 

What do you mean when you say "believe in God"?  What is your definition of the word God as it's used in AA?

 

AA literature is quite clear that when the word God is used it is meant to be a "God of ones own understanding"

 

The AA 12 step program does not dictate anyone believe in any kind of particular God at all. Only that if one wants recovery the AA way they be open to experience a Higher Power's help or the help of a God by doing the 12 steps. They will then experience the power of a God personal to them. That's all.

 

To all readers, please understand that the AA fellowship and the AA 12 step program are two completely different things. Membership in the fellowship is open to all who want help with a drinking problem. To get recovery the AA way one has to practice the 12 step program of AA.

Edited April 23, 2023 by likerdup1

[1FinickyOne]

The universe... 

[Pouatchee]

16 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

In what other aspect of life does anyone conduct themselves based on faith in something absolutely unknown and unknowable? Blind faith, in other words. The only answer is, none. Zero. 

Democrats and WOKES fit the description. BTW I am not Republican... I consider myself an anarchist. 

 

 

[radiochaser]

23 hours ago, malathione said:

2,800 mAh.

What brand?  I want to buy some!

Yes, an off topic response!

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, likerdup1 said:

You have a misunderstanding about what alcoholism is. Do you think people who are alcoholic and want to quit have not tried most every form of self-discipline to quit or moderate?

 

By definition someone is alcoholic if they LACK the will power of self-discipline to moderate or stop altogether even though there is a very strong desire to do so.

 

I know. I'm one of them. I tried for several years to give it up for good and all trying every form of self discipline. No amount of will power of self discipline worked for very long. 6 months of abstinence at best.

 

I found out the reason I could not moderate or stop altogether for very long. I had become alcoholic.

 

I crossed the line from hard drinker to alcoholic.

 

There is a simple way to understand it.

 

All alcoholics are drunks but not all drunks are alcoholics.

 

There is a big difference between a hard drinker who can give it up on will power and the alcoholic who cannot.

I am aware alcoholism is regarded as a disease. I don't buy it, any more than I can buy the proposition smokers can't give cigarettes up. I quit smoking 40 years ago.

I have also given up pharmaceuticals such as anti-inflammatories, gastric reflux inhibitors, and blood pressure medications, via diet and exercise. I simply do not need them anymore.

Humans are capable of astonishing feats of will. My most vivid memory of my youth, with respect to will, was watching Vladimir Kuts in the 1956 Olympics, grinding his opposition into the track in the 5000 and 10,000 metres.

I can appreciate some are not capable of this, and if they find AA helps them, that's fine.

 

[likerdup1]

6 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I am aware alcoholism is regarded as a disease. I don't buy it, any more than I can buy the proposition smokers can't give cigarettes up. I quit smoking 40 years ago.

I have also given up pharmaceuticals such as anti-inflammatories, gastric reflux inhibitors, and blood pressure medications, via diet and exercise. I simply do not need them anymore.

Humans are capable of astonishing feats of will. My most vivid memory of my youth, with respect to will, was watching Vladimir Kuts in the 1956 Olympics, grinding his opposition into the track in the 5000 and 10,000 metres.

I can appreciate some are not capable of this, and if they find AA helps them, that's fine.

 

 Yea, by definition alcoholics cannot quit by "just not drinking no matter what". There are rooms full of them all across the world who meet every day. Respectfully whether you "buy it" or not doesn't really matter does it. I too gave up cigarettes without too much trouble. But when it came to drinking and drugs. Nope, would relapse time and again over the course of several years. Finally I did the AA 12 steps and I've been sober for 30 years and provide service to alcoholics looking for a way out. Until one has personal experience with alcoholism it is very very difficult to imagine what it is like. You sound like just a hard drinker who made a decision to give it up and did. You were never alcoholic.

Edited April 23, 2023 by likerdup1

[1FinickyOne]

5 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I quit smoking 40 years ago.

I have also given up pharmaceuticals such as anti-inflammatories, gastric reflux inhibitors, and blood pressure medications, via diet and exercise.

And yet, there are other faults that you have, habits that others don't have that you do? Right? 

[Lacessit]

1 minute ago, likerdup1 said:

Perhaps you should write a book for alcoholics and anyone with addiction problems. I have a feeling it would a short book though. Perhaps even a one sentence book.

 

"Just stop doing that, you can do it!

 

think it will sell?

I don't want to inflame this topic any further. If you don't like my opinion, I have others. Return of sarcasm serve.

[malathione]

10 minutes ago, radiochaser said:

What brand?  I want to buy some!

Yes, an off topic response!

Grin! I use EBL.

[likerdup1]

2 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I don't want to inflame this topic any further. If you don't like my opinion, I have others. Return of sarcasm serve.

Forgive me, I deleted that comment earlier as I saw it was not helpful and sarcastic. Please accept my apology.

[Lacessit]

3 minutes ago, likerdup1 said:

Forgive me, I deleted that comment earlier as I saw it was not helpful and sarcastic. Please accept my apology.

Done deal.

[Lacessit]

12 minutes ago, likerdup1 said:

 Yea, by definition alcoholics cannot quit by "just not drinking no matter what". There are rooms full of them all across the world who meet every day. Respectfully whether you "buy it" or not doesn't really matter does it. I too gave up cigarettes without too much trouble. But when it came to drinking and drugs. Nope, would relapse time and again over the course of several years. Finally I did the AA 12 steps and I've been sober for 30 years and provide service to alcoholics looking for a way out. Until one has personal experience with alcoholism it is very very difficult to imagine what it is like. You sound like just a hard drinker who made a decision to give it up and did. You were never alcoholic.

TBH, I don't think I was ever a really hard drinker. i think I have been thoroughly plastered about 3 or 4 times in my whole life. I seem to have some internal clock which tells me when I have had enough, be it half a dozen beers or a bottle of wine. I just don't like the feeling of being out of control.

 

Maybe you are right, I can't understand a full-blown alcoholic. We are all are different, if you supplied me with oral demerol you would be hauling me down from the ceiling every day. Oddly enough, morphine as a pain-killer has zero effect on me.

 

[radiochaser]

16 minutes ago, malathione said:

Grin! I use EBL.

I thank you. 

 

[malathione]

4 minutes ago, radiochaser said:

I thank you. 

 

My pleasure.

[orchis]

19 hours ago, Andy F said:

The spiritual principle of AA is that EVERYONE is welcome.

the reality in many groups is very different. 
also success rate AA is about 7%.
AA also constantly uses the terms "God", 'He/Him' and 'prayer' which do not allow a neutral interpretation.  


 

Edited April 23, 2023 by orchis

[likerdup1]

28 minutes ago, orchis said:

the reality in many groups is very different. 
also success rate AA is about 7%.
 

Where are you getting your information? This information is very inaccurate.

 

Respectfully there is absolutely no way to get accurate statistics. There is absolutely no way to monitor who has actually done all the 12 steps or who has just only gone to meetings. The AA fellowship does no such monitoring nor is it done by anyone else or could be for that matter. AA is anonymous after all.

 

My personal experience is that the AA program (not necessarily the fellowship) has a success rate of nearly 95%. Men I help who do all the 12 steps as layed out in AA literature recover from alcoholism.

 

On the other hand nearly all real alcoholics who ONLY go to meetings do not stay sober and continue to relapse.

Edited April 23, 2023 by likerdup1

[orchis]

1 hour ago, likerdup1 said:

there is absolutely no way to get accurate statistics of the efficacy of the AA program.

so it might be even lower than 7%?
a simple search shows addiction specialists/professionals estimating the success rate between 5 to 8%.
these are estimates because AA doesn't provide statistical material.
you narrow the success rate to "real alcoholics" who "successfully worked the 12 steps", which might be close to 5 to 8% of people who attend meetings.
moreover who defines the terms "real alcoholics" and "successfully worked the 12 steps" except AA itself?

[scorecard]

21 hours ago, Andy F said:

The General Service Office of AA in New York assured me that the AA program is open to "personal interpretation" I can assure you that many alcoholics have left AA or avoided trying the AA program because they felt unable to use God as a higher power. It is them that have been led astray by the sometimes rigid and closed -minded views of the more fundamentalist members

I will digress from AA for another comment. I was with my Thai son at a tourist attratction just outside of Chiang Mai, and an old friend from Australia. Son's wife and 2 daughters 6yo and 3yo  also in the group.

 

It was lunch time, we had found a table and my son's wife got several dishes and we started eating.

Son was attending to my old friend who uses a wheel chair.

 

Suddenly son's wife says "Where are the 2 girls?" Their chairs were empty. where

 

My son is always very focused on the safety and welfare of his kids and always concerned about kidnap etc.

 

We all started searching. I decided to search closer to the carpark and sure enough the 2 girls were seated at the side of a minivan with two American women blessing them and reading to them from the bible and holding the girls up in a prayer position while the farang women prayed loudly. This was about 300 metres from the tourist venue restaurant.

 

I very quickly called my son to say "I've found the girls" and explained where we were. Both girls now clinging to me and crying.

 

Son and his wife run quickly to where we were and their 2 daughters rushed to be with mummy and daddy, crying their hearts out.

 

My son speaks perfect Thai and English. He asked the American women "What are you doing?"

Instant response 'We're saving these lovely girls from the evils of local religions."

 

Son's wife had already called the police, there was a small police post only 200 metres from where we were, the police came quickly.

 

Son interpreted for the police. The police said they saw the situation as kidnap, police had already told another officer to come quickly with a police car, everybody taken to a bigger police station 10 minutes away. 

 

The two Americans had told me they were from a Christian missionary and they were determined to get Jesus into the lives of little local children. 

 

Another American woman had called the US embassy. They alerted an outside welfare organization who came quickly., a man and a woman, they seriously scolded the 2 evangelists and convinced the police to impost a fine and then get the evangelists Some type of w

I asked "Do you condone kidnap?" Response "God and jesus will understand, Jesus will enter their lives and love them and save them from any future dangers. ".  All rote sentences.

 

They were fined 1,000Baht each and told to report to the American embassy. What happened from there we never found out. 

[Andy F]

Thank you so much for sharing that Scorecard. Your somewhat anxiety provoking experience illustrates a very important point. No one and I mean no one should impose their religious or spiritual beliefs on anyone if they don't ask for it and are not ready to hear it.

 

As in this case, it only distressed the young girls to be subjected to an onslaught of ideas that these girls didn't want or ask for .

 

This is pure religious fundamentalism and as such is not coming from a place of love but of fear. This raises the question, was the intention of this religious intervention in the girls best interests? Was it in the interests of their highest good? Of course not! It was in the self- serving interest of the two American women.

 

The same exact principle applies in AA. Never, ever shove God down a vulnerable newcomers throat when they are not ready to hear it. Any type of fundamentalism is driven by self-serving agendas and fear. How secure where these women in their faith, that they needed to kidnap these girls to validate their own beliefs at the expense of these girls?

 

If they were really secure in their faith, there would be no need to "use" these girls to validate their own fragile faith. Thanks again for sharing that story. Everyone on this forum needed to hear it! ????❤️????

[MrJ2U]

On 4/22/2023 at 2:23 PM, Tropposurfer said:

I left because they kept serving stale bread egg sandwiches

As long as it's not Issan food.

 

[Skeptic7]

11 hours ago, likerdup1 said:

Show me where I say there is only one pathway? I am only speaking up for AA which does not in any way shape or form say it has a monopoly on the pathway toward abstinence from alcohol. AA does not claim to be the only path toward abstinence. This is generally understood my most all members. I think you have misunderstood sir. The original OP has his personal "interpretation" of AA which is outside the mainstream understanding of how to do the 12 step program. This is all I'm concerned with. He has every right to say what he wants. Just as I have the right to point out that it is not mainstream and is fringe opinion.

There are secular alternatives. 12-step Progam is dogmatic and rigid in it's method. It's a peddling power play to break a person further down and force them to admit they are not in control. There are other, better ways without this kind of BS. 

[Skeptic7]

6 hours ago, scorecard said:

I will digress from AA for another comment. I was with my Thai son at a tourist attratction just outside of Chiang Mai, and an old friend from Australia. Son's wife and 2 daughters 6yo and 3yo  also in the group.

 

It was lunch time, we had found a table and my son's wife got several dishes and we started eating.

Son was attending to my old friend who uses a wheel chair.

 

Suddenly son's wife says "Where are the 2 girls?" Their chairs were empty. where

 

My son is always very focused on the safety and welfare of his kids and always concerned about kidnap etc.

 

We all started searching. I decided to search closer to the carpark and sure enough the 2 girls were seated at the side of a minivan with two American women blessing them and reading to them from the bible and holding the girls up in a prayer position while the farang women prayed loudly. This was about 300 metres from the tourist venue restaurant.

 

I very quickly called my son to say "I've found the girls" and explained where we were. Both girls now clinging to me and crying.

 

Son and his wife run quickly to where we were and their 2 daughters rushed to be with mummy and daddy, crying their hearts out.

 

My son speaks perfect Thai and English. He asked the American women "What are you doing?"

Instant response 'We're saving these lovely girls from the evils of local religions."

 

Son's wife had already called the police, there was a small police post only 200 metres from where we were, the police came quickly.

 

Son interpreted for the police. The police said they saw the situation as kidnap, police had already told another officer to come quickly with a police car, everybody taken to a bigger police station 10 minutes away. 

 

The two Americans had told me they were from a Christian missionary and they were determined to get Jesus into the lives of little local children. 

 

Another American woman had called the US embassy. They alerted an outside welfare organization who came quickly., a man and a woman, they seriously scolded the 2 evangelists and convinced the police to impost a fine and then get the evangelists Some type of w

I asked "Do you condone kidnap?" Response "God and jesus will understand, Jesus will enter their lives and love them and save them from any future dangers. ".  All rote sentences.

 

They were fined 1,000Baht each and told to report to the American embassy. What happened from there we never found out. 

"<deleted>" missionaries should be banned. Buddhism is mind-numbing and "dumbing down" enough... and it is one of the milder of superstitions. I've talked to a few Gee-zus moron missionaries on flights here from the USA and quite firmly, informed them that they are not needed...nor wanted...here. They were shocked. Not accustomed to the silly bubble in which they reside being pricked❗????

[scorecard]

19 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

"<deleted>" missionaries should be banned. Buddhism is mind-numbing and "dumbing down" enough... and it is one of the milder of superstitions. I've talked to a few Gee-zus moron missionaries on flights here from the USA and quite firmly, informed them that they are not needed...nor wanted...here. They were shocked. Not accustomed to the silly bubble in which they reside being pricked❗????

Sure.

I've found that many of these missionary types (and others) firmly/categorically  believe the whole world wants to be American. 

Edited April 23, 2023 by scorecard

[likerdup1]

9 hours ago, orchis said:

so it might be even lower than 7%?
a simple search shows addiction specialists/professionals estimating the success rate between 5 to 8%.
these are estimates because AA doesn't provide statistical material.
you narrow the success rate to "real alcoholics" who "successfully worked the 12 steps", which might be close to 5 to 8% of people who attend meetings.
moreover who defines the terms "real alcoholics" and "successfully worked the 12 steps" except AA itself?

So, my point exactly. Respectfully there is no point in posting made up, estimated statistics by specialists or professionals who have a conflict of interest but also in most all cases after "treating" a patient will send them to... wait for it.. AA.

 

What we do see is there are an estimated 2 million or more people who attend AA meetings. Of those millions there are many people who have found help and enjoy recovery from alcoholism. In short, a lot of good is happening as a result of AA and that is not deniable.

Edited April 23, 2023 by likerdup1