UK government scraps plan to replace all EU laws by the end of 2023

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, candide said:

 

"Official EU voting records* show that the British government has voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times since 1999, according to UK in a Changing Europe Fellows Sara Hagemann and Simon Hix.

In other words, UK ministers were on the “winning side” 95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and were on the losing side 2%."

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-uk-influence/

 

So It's not true that "These hundreds/thousands of EU laws basically bypassed the British Government on the way in - so why not on the way out?"

 

Why not post something accurate?

 

From your own link:

The UK has been in a losing minority more often over the past few years

In recent years the UK has been more often on the losing side of these votes.

Research by Dr Hagemann and Professor Hix shows that between 2009 and 2015 the UK voted against the majority 12.3% of the time, compared to 2.6% of the time between 2004 and 2009.

 

Why not admit that since QMV came into use and since the UK lost most of its vetoes, then the trend has been that UK interests were increasingly overridden?

[josephbloggs]

4 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Perhaps someone in favour of getting rid of these so called ‘EU Laws’ can give us an example of which particular laws they want to get rid of and why

 

 

....but......but.......SOVEREIGNTY!!

(ie. you won't get one single example from anyone)

Edited May 14, 2023 by josephbloggs

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, James105 said:

An undeniable truth is that a smaller minority of the electorate voted in favour of staying in the EU.   What is the point you are trying to make here? 

The point is clear - it is not correct to state, as was posted earlier, that' the British do what we want' as if brexit had universal support. We did not vote en masse so any suggestion that there was universal support is an insult to those of us who could see its inherent stupidity.

[RayC]

25 minutes ago, nauseus said:

From your own link:

The UK has been in a losing minority more often over the past few years

In recent years the UK has been more often on the losing side of these votes.

Research by Dr Hagemann and Professor Hix shows that between 2009 and 2015 the UK voted against the majority 12.3% of the time, compared to 2.6% of the time between 2004 and 2009.

 

Why not admit that since QMV came into use and since the UK lost most of its vetoes, then the trend has been that UK interests were increasingly overridden?

And from the same link:

 

" ... EU laws pass through several stages of negotiations in the Council and the European Parliament.

 

So the UK government’s ability to influence policies doesn’t only occur through voting—which is a ‘Yes’ or a ‘No’ situation—but also in negotiations over the actual text of a draft law.

Many accounts have shown that the UK diplomatic service has—at least historically—been very skilled in such negotiations over important laws.

 

Second, the records only relate to votes on proposed laws that eventually pass ... "  and does not include those which do not pass or fail to reach the 'voting' stage.

 

Is it a surprise that in an multi-national organisation, there are occasions where an individual country's interests do not align with a majority of the other members'? An individual member state cannot expect to get its' own way all the time; compromise is sometimes necessary.

 

Which begs what is, the more pertinent question: 'Are we better off in or out of the EU?'.

 

Eight years after the referendum, and three years since we officially left,  there is little to indicate that being out of the EU has been beneficial.

[Pink Mist]

Bickering baiting troll posts have been removed.  Stay civil to each other.

[transam]

1 minute ago, RayC said:

And from the same link:

 

" ... EU laws pass through several stages of negotiations in the Council and the European Parliament.

 

So the UK government’s ability to influence policies doesn’t only occur through voting—which is a ‘Yes’ or a ‘No’ situation—but also in negotiations over the actual text of a draft law.

Many accounts have shown that the UK diplomatic service has—at least historically—been very skilled in such negotiations over important laws.

 

Second, the records only relate to votes on proposed laws that eventually pass ... "  and does not include those which do not pass or fail to reach the 'voting' stage.

 

Is it a surprise that in an multi-national organisation, there are occasions where an individual country's interests do not align with a majority of the other members'? An individual member state cannot expect to get its' own way all the time; compromise is sometimes necessary.

 

Which begs what is, the more pertinent question: 'Are we better off in or out of the EU?'.

 

Eight years after the referendum, and three years since we officially left,  there is little to indicate that being out of the EU has been beneficial.

Be patient, I am sure you know "Rome wasn't built in a day", three years is just a time blip.

The only "begs the question", is by those who are still smarting over Brexit, the country moves on without a lead & collar.....................????

[nauseus]

27 minutes ago, RayC said:

And from the same link:

 

" ... EU laws pass through several stages of negotiations in the Council and the European Parliament.

 

So the UK government’s ability to influence policies doesn’t only occur through voting—which is a ‘Yes’ or a ‘No’ situation—but also in negotiations over the actual text of a draft law.

Many accounts have shown that the UK diplomatic service has—at least historically—been very skilled in such negotiations over important laws.

 

Second, the records only relate to votes on proposed laws that eventually pass ... "  and does not include those which do not pass or fail to reach the 'voting' stage.

 

Is it a surprise that in an multi-national organisation, there are occasions where an individual country's interests do not align with a majority of the other members'? An individual member state cannot expect to get its' own way all the time; compromise is sometimes necessary.

 

Which begs what is, the more pertinent question: 'Are we better off in or out of the EU?'.

 

Eight years after the referendum, and three years since we officially left,  there is little to indicate that being out of the EU has been beneficial.

Perhaps then, if we were allowed to leave fully and completely, that indictor might be more easily identifiable and clear? 

[Chomper Higgot]

9 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Perhaps then, if we were allowed to leave fully and completely, that indictor might be more easily identifiable and clear? 

The UK has left the EU fully and completely.

[candide]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

From your own link:

The UK has been in a losing minority more often over the past few years

In recent years the UK has been more often on the losing side of these votes.

Research by Dr Hagemann and Professor Hix shows that between 2009 and 2015 the UK voted against the majority 12.3% of the time, compared to 2.6% of the time between 2004 and 2009.

 

Why not admit that since QMV came into use and since the UK lost most of its vetoes, then the trend has been that UK interests were increasingly overridden?

I admit it, no problem.

However, it is not true that "These hundreds/thousands of EU laws basically bypassed the British Government"

 

Out of the 3000 retained laws, only around 100 bypassed the UK government.

[nauseus]

8 minutes ago, candide said:

I admit it, no problem.

However, it is not true that "These hundreds/thousands of EU laws basically bypassed the British Government"

 

Out of the 3000 retained laws, only around 100 bypassed the UK government.

I'd love to know where you got those numbers.

[James105]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

The point is clear - it is not correct to state, as was posted earlier, that' the British do what we want' as if brexit had universal support. We did not vote en masse so any suggestion that there was universal support is an insult to those of us who could see its inherent stupidity.

Nothing gets universal support.   I presume based on your suggestion that unless over 50% of the voting age population votes for something we should retain the status quo?   Would you stick with that philosophy with other things people vote for as that would mean Tory governments for at least the next century?

 

Brexit is just a rounding error in comparison to the self inflicted financial damage of lockdowns during covid and the upcoming financial lunacy of net zero - it's a shame people are looking the other way still on something that is relatively insignificant in comparison.  If you want to talk about "inherent stupidity" I'd suggest those 2 policies would be a good place to start.  

[candide]

36 minutes ago, nauseus said:

I'd love to know where you got those numbers.

3000*3%. The percentage indicated in the article was 2% since 1999, I used 3% to get a wide margin of error. The 2% figure doesn't take into account laws passed before 1999, a period during which QMV was very limited in scope (the Nice treaty dates from 2004), so It's likely below 2% since 1973.

[RayC]

3 hours ago, nauseus said:

Perhaps then, if we were allowed to leave fully and completely, that indictor might be more easily identifiable and clear? 

Yet again, a Brexiter refuses to take responsibility and accountability for a situation of their making.

 

Having served Article 50, the UK would have left the EU on the first anniversary of this date by default with no deal and it was completely within the UK government's power to have done just that. The EU, the UK parliament or any other group of remainers could not have prevented this happening (which is what you are implying).

 

There is no one to blame for the current situation other than successive Tory governments. 

Edited May 14, 2023 by RayC
Grammar

[Chomper Higgot]

10 minutes ago, RayC said:

Yet again, a Brexiter refuses to take responsibility and accountability for a situation of their making.

 

Having served Article 50, the UK would have left the EU on the first anniversary of this date by default with no deal and it was completely within the UK government's power to have done just that. The EU, the UK parliament or any other group of remainers could not have prevented this happening (which is what you are implying).

 

There is no one to blame for the current situation other than successive Tory governments. 

What the dwindling numbers of Brexiteers are engaging in is the fallacious argument that the problems with Brexit are firstly the fault of people who had no power over its execution and secondly that it was the execution of Brexit that is causing the ever more obvious failings of Brexit.

 

This may be summed up in an expression you might if come across:

 

’Its always somebody else’s fault’.

 

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Chomper Higgot

[Mac Mickmanus]

17 minutes ago, RayC said:

Yet again, a Brexiter refuses to take responsibility and accountability for a situation of their making.

 

Having served Article 50, the UK would have left the EU on the first anniversary of this date by default with no deal and it was completely within the UK government's power to have done just that. The EU, the UK parliament or any other group of remainers could not have prevented this happening (which is what you are implying).

 

There is no one to blame for the current situation other than successive Tory governments. 

The U.K wasn't able to serve Article 50 because it had to be passed through UK Parliament and the Remain  M.Ps voted against it , so it couldn't be passed .

  The Remain  M.Ps continually voted against everything with the hope that the Brexit vote would be overturned 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, RayC said:

Yet again, a Brexiter refuses to take responsibility and accountability for a situation of their making.

 

Having served Article 50, the UK would have left the EU on the first anniversary of this date by default with no deal and it was completely within the UK government's power to have done just that. The EU, the UK parliament or any other group of remainers could not have prevented this happening (which is what you are implying).

 

There is no one to blame for the current situation other than successive Tory governments. 

All mixed up and ridiculous.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

What the dwindling numbers of Brexiteers are engaging in is the fallacious argument that the problems with Brexit are firstly the fault of people who had no power over its execution and secondly that it was the execution of Brexit that is causing the ever more obvious failings of Brexit.

 

This may be summed up in an expression you might if come across:

 

’Its always somebody else’s fault’.

 

 

I'm sorry....but you might want to read that again.

 

 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The U.K wasn't able to serve Article 50 because it had to be passed through UK Parliament and the Remain  M.Ps voted against it , so it couldn't be passed .

  The Remain  M.Ps continually voted against everything with the hope that the Brexit vote would be overturned 

Article 50 was triggered in March 2017. The rest was a cluster.

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, nauseus said:

I'm sorry....but you might want to read that again.

 

 

I’m still waiting to read which particular so called ‘EU laws’ you Brexiteers want to get rid of and why.

 

I’m not holding my breath.

[RayC]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The U.K wasn't able to serve Article 50 because it had to be passed through UK Parliament and the Remain  M.Ps voted against it , so it couldn't be passed

The Supreme Court ruled that a bill authorising the serving of Article 50 had to be presented to Parliament. This bill passed through parliament and Article 50 was served on 27 March 2017. 

 

Given that Theresa May had said in October 2016 that she intended to serve Article 50 in the first quarter of 2017, it is clear that the Supreme Court's decision had no effect on timescales.

 

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

 

  The Remain  M.Ps continually voted against everything with the hope that the Brexit vote would be overturned 

... or perhaps they voted against the various proposals because they didn't think that it would be a good deal for the UK. What's passed up to now suggests that they have a point.

 

(For information, a private member's bill proposing a second referendum did not get a second reading)

 

Anyway, wasn't it a Brexiter argument that the UK parliament should be sovereign? Isn't this an example of that principle?

[RayC]

35 minutes ago, nauseus said:

All mixed up and ridiculous.

I don't suppose you'd care to elaborate?

[nauseus]

14 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

They did.

 

And many on the basis that they wanted the British Parliament to be sovereign.

 

This attempt to bypass Parliament is nothing at all to do with Brexit.

 

It is however an example of the anti democratic objectives of the extreme rightwing that was political driving force of Brexit.

 

There is no excuse to remove from parliament the authority to make and or replete laws.

 

This move is an attempt to replace parliamentary scrutiny and authority with executive edict.

 

And here we have Brexiteers baying to surrender parliament to the executive.

 

Quite remarkable really.

What is quite remarkable (but sadly expected) is that remainers refuse to concede that the British Parliament lost absolute sovereignty once the Treaty of Rome was signed and that sovereignty was significantly further eroded with each new treaty, regulation, directive and decision.    

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, RayC said:

I don't suppose you'd care to elaborate?

That would require an elaborate post.

[RayC]

7 hours ago, nauseus said:

Article 50 was triggered in March 2017. The rest was a cluster.

I totally agree????

[Chomper Higgot]

6 hours ago, nauseus said:

What is quite remarkable (but sadly expected) is that remainers refuse to concede that the British Parliament lost absolute sovereignty once the Treaty of Rome was signed and that sovereignty was significantly further eroded with each new treaty, regulation, directive and decision.    

No it did not.

 

Throughout the period of the UK’s membership of the EU the UK parliament passed laws in the same way it has done for centuries.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

10 hours ago, nauseus said:

Article 50 was triggered in March 2017. The rest was a cluster.

As was predicted and filed under ‘Project Fear’.

[JonnyF]

It's amusing how all the Brit hating Europeans and Americans were so happy to see us subjugated by the German Franco led EU. It was as if they were finally happy to see us put in our place. They couldn't take us over militarily so they tried to take us over via treaties, regulations, laws and open border policies, all hidden under the pretense of Democracy.

 

If Brexit was destined to be such a disaster you'd think they'd be begging us to leave the EU. That they are still so angry that we voted to leave and finally regained our sovereignty only reassures me further that we did the right thing.

 

We'll replace the EU laws when we are good and ready. We are in control of our own destiny again. We do what we want.

[Chomper Higgot]

27 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

It's amusing how all the Brit hating Europeans and Americans were so happy to see us subjugated by the German Franco led EU. It was as if they were finally happy to see us put in our place. They couldn't take us over militarily so they tried to take us over via treaties, regulations, laws and open border policies, all hidden under the pretense of Democracy.

 

If Brexit was destined to be such a disaster you'd think they'd be begging us to leave the EU. That they are still so angry that we voted to leave and finally regained our sovereignty only reassures me further that we did the right thing.

 

We'll replace the EU laws when we are good and ready. We are in control of our own destiny again. We do what we want.

Where did that ‘Brit hating’ accusation come from I wonder?

 

Let’s get you back on topic.

 

We now know not all so called ‘EU laws’ are to be removed.

 

Perhaps you can suggest an example and tell us why it should be removed?

 

 

[RayC]

6 hours ago, JonnyF said:

It's amusing how all the Brit hating Europeans and Americans were so happy to see us subjugated by the German Franco led EU. It was as if they were finally happy to see us put in our place. They couldn't take us over militarily so they tried to take us over via treaties, regulations, laws and open border policies, all hidden under the pretense of Democracy.

 

If Brexit was destined to be such a disaster you'd think they'd be begging us to leave the EU. That they are still so angry that we voted to leave and finally regained our sovereignty only reassures me further that we did the right thing.

 

We'll replace the EU laws when we are good and ready. We are in control of our own destiny again. We do what we want.

Wow .... the Americans were also in on this Franco/ German conspiracy to subjugate the UK! Given this evil empire's combined economic and military might we did well to resist it. Can't say that I have noticed it myself, although I was out of the country for +/-25 years so it must have happened while I was away.

 

Given that the EU is nothing but bad in your eyes, I'd have thought that you would want their Brit-hating laws off the stature book asap?

[placeholder]

On 5/14/2023 at 4:59 PM, nauseus said:

 

 

11 hours ago, JonnyF said:

It's amusing how all the Brit hating Europeans and Americans were so happy to see us subjugated by the German Franco led EU. It was as if they were finally happy to see us put in our place. They couldn't take us over militarily so they tried to take us over via treaties, regulations, laws and open border policies, all hidden under the pretense of Democracy.

 

If Brexit was destined to be such a disaster you'd think they'd be begging us to leave the EU. That they are still so angry that we voted to leave and finally regained our sovereignty only reassures me further that we did the right thing.

 

We'll replace the EU laws when we are good and ready. We are in control of our own destiny again. We do what we want.

As usual, when someone's got nothing,  they go to motive. Because, you know, while you can't prove motive you can't disprove it either. And since 48% of UK voters voted to remain, were they also rejoicing in the subjugation of the UK by the Franco German alliance?

And the polls consistently show now that a majority of UK citizens think that leaving the EU was a mistake. Let me amend that: a majority of UK citizens hate the UK so much that they think that leaving the EU was a mistake.

Edited May 15, 2023 by placeholder