Money for nothing: Universal basic income to be trialled in England for first time

[BritManToo]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

If people are given a UBI of £1600, what do you think they’ll do with it?

 

 

If it were me, I'd immediately give up working.

[Social Media]

1 hour ago, Denim said:

It's a start in the right direction. Hopefully it will snowball.

Make it the province and I'm in ????being just up the road.

[sirineou]

On 6/5/2023 at 7:15 AM, Gsxrnz said:

I'm guessing that the entire tax take from approximately 50 average wage working individuals will be required to fund this scheme. 

You guess wrong. Firstly a lot of the research that produced the innovations that are displacing workers was funded their  taxes, in essence we are shareholders and if we are displaced by such innovations we should be compensated. There should be a tax on corporations that use robots to displace human workers , Which exactly what will eventually happen because if robots displace human workers who would buy their products? 

But before that happens there would be resistance, and a lot of pain , as it has happened during every transformation from one era to another.

What is more pathetic is that much of the cattle are in support of the butchers on their way to the slaughterhouse.

You got to love humans LOL

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, James105 said:

Well if its given to me I won't do much with it as I don't need it.   The existing benefits system is provided on need, so someone who is disabled and needs extra assistance gets a bit more than someone physically fit.  A "universal" system would then treat everyone the same regardless of need.   

 

I think people who say they want UBI don't really want UBI.   They would still want a system based on need rather than a system that gives free money to those who don't need it, and would still want people who need the extra help receive more than those who don't.  

Here’s my question again, have another go.

 

2 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

If people are given a UBI of £1600, what do you think they’ll do with it?

 

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

34 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

If it were me, I'd immediately give up working.

That’s an option some would take I’m sure.

 

But what would you do with the money?

 

 

Edited June 6, 2023 by Chomper Higgot

[James105]

7 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Here’s my question again, have another go.

 

 

I'm one of the people, and answered what I would do with it as I can state this with some authority as I know me quite well.  If you are asking me about other people I'm not really sure how you would expect me to answer such a thing, but if they need it as much as I do then it will accumulate in the bank or investments.   Hope that helps.  

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, James105 said:

I'm one of the people, and answered what I would do with it as I can state this with some authority as I know me quite well.  If you are asking me about other people I'm not really sure how you would expect me to answer such a thing, but if they need it as much as I do then it will accumulate in the bank or investments.   Hope that helps.  

You’re one of the lucky ones, others not so.

 

Most people spent most of not all of their money.

 

Money they receive gets spent, taxes are paid,  businesses sell goods and services, businesses expand, people get employed, they get paid, more taxes are paid, they spend money and it goes around again.

 

Time to give putting money at the bottom of the economy a go.

 

40+ years of ‘trickle down economics’ has done nothing but strip wealth from the working and middle classes while feeding it to the already wealthy.

[herfiehandbag]

How do you get to be one of the 30 trial participants?

 

£1600 a month would see me through the last year's to my pension very nicely!

[Denim]

1 hour ago, Social Media said:

Make it the province and I'm in ????being just up the road.

Nothing to lose. Petchabun it is. Now we are three. Let the snowball roll.

[James105]

11 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

You’re one of the lucky ones, others not so.

 

Most people spent most of not all of their money.

 

Money they receive gets spent, taxes are paid,  businesses sell goods and services, businesses expand, people get employed, they get paid, more taxes are paid, they spend money and it goes around again.

 

Time to give putting money at the bottom of the economy a go.

 

40+ years of ‘trickle down economics’ has done nothing but strip wealth from the working and middle classes while feeding it to the already wealthy.

Do you really believe in the concept of UBI though or do you believe it should be means tested so those like myself who do not actually need it do not receive it?   Bear in mind that UBI specifically is a program in which every adult citizen receives a set amount of money regularly.

 

Also, is £1,600 enough?  A small flat in London will quickly wipe that out and presumably UBI would have to replace the existing welfare state.   So no free housing, no state pension, no child support etc.   Would disabled folks who currently receive more than able bodied folks find themselves getting the exact same even though their ability to gain income from work is extremely restricted to supplement this?  Would they see this as unfair? 

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, James105 said:

Do you really believe in the concept of UBI though or do you believe it should be means tested so those like myself who do not actually need it do not receive it?   Bear in mind that UBI specifically is a program in which every adult citizen receives a set amount of money regularly.

 

Also, is £1,600 enough?  A small flat in London will quickly wipe that out and presumably UBI would have to replace the existing welfare state.   So no free housing, no state pension, no child support etc.   Would disabled folks who currently receive more than able bodied folks find themselves getting the exact same even though their ability to gain income from work is extremely restricted to supplement this?  Would they see this as unfair? 

‘Believe’?

 

I’ll tell you what I think.

 

Its a very good idea to run trials to examine the idea.

 

 

 

[billd766]

Well 1,600 per month comes to 19,200 per year.

 

At present the personal tax allowance is 12,500 leaving a balance of 6,700 to be taxed at the BR of 20%.

 

So unless the personal tax allowance is ignored for those lucky people they will not be getting the 1,600 per month.

 

As has been mentioned by a previous poster, where will the money come from to fund this?

 

At this point my state pension is frozen at 25% of this rate. If the government cannot or will not  to bring me up to date on that, then they certainly cannot afford to pay UBI.

[Chomper Higgot]

42 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Well 1,600 per month comes to 19,200 per year.

 

At present the personal tax allowance is 12,500 leaving a balance of 6,700 to be taxed at the BR of 20%.

 

So unless the personal tax allowance is ignored for those lucky people they will not be getting the 1,600 per month.

 

As has been mentioned by a previous poster, where will the money come from to fund this?

 

At this point my state pension is frozen at 25% of this rate. If the government cannot or will not  to bring me up to date on that, then they certainly cannot afford to pay UBI.

Your state pension is not being frozen due to a lack of money.

 

[James105]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Your state pension is not being frozen due to a lack of money.

 

There is no spare money to raise though as the UK is already spending more than it receives in taxes.  

 

From https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/how-public-spending-was-calculated-in-your-tax-summary/how-public-spending-was-calculated-in-your-tax-summary#:~:text=These taxes made up around,commonly known as the deficit.

 

In 2021/2022:

Total tax income:  £918 billion

Total spending:  £1,040 billion

 

UBI will require probably at least an extra £1,000 billion of spending (minus £300 billion if existing welfare/pensions is scrapped).  

 

Where will the extra money come from?

[Chomper Higgot]

6 minutes ago, James105 said:

There is no spare money to raise though as the UK is already spending more than it receives in taxes.  

 

From https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/how-public-spending-was-calculated-in-your-tax-summary/how-public-spending-was-calculated-in-your-tax-summary#:~:text=These taxes made up around,commonly known as the deficit.

 

In 2021/2022:

Total tax income:  £918 billion

Total spending:  £1,040 billion

 

UBI will require probably at least an extra £1,000 billion of spending (minus £300 billion if existing welfare/pensions is scrapped).  

 

Where will the extra money come from?

Calm down, UBI is being trialed to study its performance.

 

I suggest waiting to see how the study goes rather than jumping to simplistic assumptions.

[James105]

20 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Calm down, UBI is being trialed to study its performance.

 

I suggest waiting to see how the study goes rather than jumping to simplistic assumptions.

It wasn't a simplistic assumption though.   It's actual data and numbers.  

 

Besides, it has already been trialled elsewhere and - quelle surprise - people were happier when being given free money.    I can confidently predict that the 30 people involved in this study will be happy about receiving free money unconditionally, but other than that it won't really answer the fundamentally essential question of how will it be paid for?  

 

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/05/finlands-basic-income-trial-found-people-were-happier-but-werent-more-likely-to-get-jobs/

 

"The final results were published on Wednesday for a landmark two-year basic-income study conducted in Finland: Participants were happier when given free money, but they were not any more likely to land a job."

[Chomper Higgot]

The Government are not trialing UBI out of a sudden urge to give people other than their chums money.

 

AI is upon us, it’s going to create mass unemployment, an it is already particularly hitting white collar and middle class jobs.

 

An answer needs to be found to the question how will people survive in an economy that doesn’t produce anywhere near enough jobs.

 

The second question is how will Government’s respond to Mass unemployment amongst a demographic that votes,

[scottiejohn]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The Government are not trialing UBI out of a sudden urge to give people other than their chums money.

The Government are not trialing UBI!

The trial is being run by think tank Autonomy. Researchers will work with the recipients to understand how the money affects their lives.

The pilot will also recruit a control group who will not get UBI, so researchers can compare the experience of people receiving a basic income with those not getting one.

Autonomy estimates the basic income payments will come to £1.15million over two years, while there would be further costs of about £500,000 for other elements such as evaluation and research.

The proposal is being supported by charity Big Local and Northumbria University and it follows two years worth of consultations.

 

A similar scheme is already being trialled in Wales for hundreds of young people who have just turned 18 and have been brought up in care.

Other countries including Iran, India, Canada and parts of the United States have also tested out similar trials.

Autonomy

Why people will be given money for free in universal basic income trial (msn.com)

People in England could be given £1,600 a month under new 'basic income' trial - Mirror Online

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

it is an "organisation called 

Edited June 7, 2023 by scottiejohn
extra links added

[Chomper Higgot]

18 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

The Government are not trialing UBI!

The trial is being run by think tank Autonomy. Researchers will work with the recipients to understand how the money affects their lives.

The pilot will also recruit a control group who will not get UBI, so researchers can compare the experience of people receiving a basic income with those not getting one.

Autonomy estimates the basic income payments will come to £1.15million over two years, while there would be further costs of about £500,000 for other elements such as evaluation and research.

The proposal is being supported by charity Big Local and Northumbria University and it follows two years worth of consultations.

 

A similar scheme is already being trialled in Wales for hundreds of young people who have just turned 18 and have been brought up in care.

Other countries including Iran, India, Canada and parts of the United States have also tested out similar trials.

Autonomy

Why people will be given money for free in universal basic income trial (msn.com)

People in England could be given £1,600 a month under new 'basic income' trial - Mirror Online

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

it is an "organisation called 

My bad, thanks for the correction.

 

Expecting this government to do anything proactive was a bit of a stretch.

[scottiejohn]

32 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

My bad, thanks for the correction.

 

Expecting this government to do anything proactive was a bit of a stretch.

Thanks!

I was not sure whether to give a laugh, as I did, or a thanks etc so I have thanked you here!

I hate this curtailed response system and a classic case of why the old (NON) "someone" was removed!

[quake]

On 6/6/2023 at 8:12 PM, BritManToo said:

If it were me, I'd immediately give up working.

I would spend it on booze and hookers.

the rest I would just waste.

[RayC]

3 hours ago, quake said:

I would spend it on booze and hookers.

the rest I would just waste.

Is this you?????

[ozimoron]

On 6/6/2023 at 7:04 PM, James105 said:

Like I said, the people who say they want UBI do not really want UBI.   If it is income capped it is not universal, it's what the UK currently has - a welfare system for those who need it.   

It's universal in the sense that nobody can earn less than the UBI rate.

[quake]

11 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The Government are not trialing UBI out of a sudden urge to give people other than their chums money.

 

AI is upon us, it’s going to create mass unemployment, an it is already particularly hitting white collar and middle class jobs.

 

An answer needs to be found to the question how will people survive in an economy that doesn’t produce anywhere near enough jobs.

 

The second question is how will Government’s respond to Mass unemployment amongst a demographic that votes,

+1 

[ChrisP24]

On 6/4/2023 at 7:15 PM, stereolab said:

£1600.00 will be spent by some, not all, on alcohol, cigarettes and lottery scratch cards. 

Yep.  But the rest of it they'll just squander. 

[James105]

7 hours ago, ozimoron said:

It's universal in the sense that nobody can earn less than the UBI rate.

You are confusing UBI with a different scheme which is Minimum Income Guarantee.   The trial mentioned in the OP would continue to pay out UBI even if someone found a job willing to pay them £1 million per year.   One of the selling points of UBI is that since it is not means tested there is minimal administration costs as everyone qualifies as soon as they turn 18.

 

https://www.ippr.org/blog/what-is-a-minimum-income-guarantee#:~:text=Defining a Minimum Income Guarantee,to meet their income floor.

[ozimoron]

4 hours ago, James105 said:

You are confusing UBI with a different scheme which is Minimum Income Guarantee.   The trial mentioned in the OP would continue to pay out UBI even if someone found a job willing to pay them £1 million per year.   One of the selling points of UBI is that since it is not means tested there is minimal administration costs as everyone qualifies as soon as they turn 18.

 

https://www.ippr.org/blog/what-is-a-minimum-income-guarantee#:~:text=Defining a Minimum Income Guarantee,to meet their income floor.

I'm not discussing any particular scheme. I'm discussing the concept of a universal basic income generally.

[EVENKEEL]

In the not too distant future when the masses don't have job due to the rage of the machine. Do you honestly think the gov of any country can afford to just hand out money. Oh no, they'll alot tiny cubicles, open bathrooms, food will be what they have to give. The future is grim.