World History in Thailand - lack of or Arrogance?

[1FinickyOne]

43 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

I didn't know anyone in the UK who could speak a foreign language.

And French/German/Spanish in UK schools was a joke, I know I used to teach French and German.

well, at least you made it funny for them.

[1FinickyOne]

4 hours ago, actonion said:

Teach them the meaning of respect first, then  they might

If 'them' is a Thai person, respect will come from your deeds... not your words. 

[NativeBob]

History... who needs it?

fair tales, made up stories, adventures of fake heroes and horrible deeds done by dictators and warlords. Nah, thank you. Utterly useless just like comics.

A dirty tool to provoke Sudden Uber-Patriotic Syndrome in average folks: 

Uber-mensch, chosen ones, nation under the god and yes, my favorite:

never colonized

[petermik]

13 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

 

 

Could it be that certain groups have little interest in people becoming socially mobile and don't want too many kids to become so educated that they start to think for themselves?

Exactly...treat them as mushrooms kept in the dark and fed on rubbish....they don,t want the masses learning and asking awkward questions ????

[Chongalulu]

8 hours ago, 1FinickyOne said:

Well, any thread that begins w/this is not Thai bashing???

 

So, lets say for example, a farang goes back to his Gf's village - poor farmers, not much formal education, farmers who know how to do necessary things for farms... And they lead a simple life... quite pleasant for what they need to get by happily in their own world...

 

And their daughter returns w/a fellow who cannot read the newspaper or even understand when the news is spoken on the television. He cannot hold the simplest conversation, but he seems to have some money that he spends on beer. The beer part is ok, but he doesn't seem very bright or otherwise have much to offer - he can barely eat the food... 

 

And then this farang drinks too much beer and starts acting really stupid... 

 

Yes, I have seen this type of behavior. The guy might be 'accomplished' in the West, but is a total moron in the village... should they respect him and where he comes from? 

 

 

That, although perhaps you didn't realise it is an indictment,and a justified one, of the average Thai's failure to grasp anything outside their tiny bubble of experience,and more damningly a curiosity to look beyond it. The West is far more advanced and obviously so yet it doesn't intrigue them...?

[youreavinalaff]

5 hours ago, AlfonsV said:

A man organized training projects for youths on behalf of a foundation in several countries in Asia and Central America. After only 2 visits to Thailand, he summarized his impression as follows: "Here, form means everything, content means nothing". He was referring to the many ceremonies for teachers, officials, uniformed people and monks, flag roll calls, group photos, presentation of gift baskets, etc.
 

The problem discussed in this forum is the glaring shortage in school education that has been lamented for decades, perpetuated by poorly qualified teachers, especially in rural areas. It is a mix of ignorance, disinterest, belief in authority and pride in "Thainess" which may then lead to arrogance. Some years ago in Thailand, an internationally binding English baseline test was held among all Thai(!) English teachers. I forget how many teachers there were, 20,000 or 40,000? Half of the English teachers failed the test and only 6 (sic!) in the whole country passed the test 100%! Should we laugh or cry? The outcry from politicians and journalists faded as quickly as the one about the annual Smoky Season in the North.
 

About cars: How many Thais don't know that Mercedes, BMW, Volkswagen and Porsche are German products! Apropos general knowledge: Almost all Thais "confuse" Austria with Australia, if they even know that Austria exists. They are always surprised that the symbol of the Red Cross is the inverse in color of the Swiss national flag and that the founder was a Swiss. Or that England is an island. Or you are asked if Brazil is in Africa. If you mention Germany you often get Hitler mentioned immediately (with an admiring undertone) to show that the guy "knows" something, but without any idea about WW2 and the crimes of the NAZIS. "Jews" - who are they?
 

It's just more comfortable to watch stereotypical soap operas or European football where stars even can be called by their names. But honestly: In Europe surveys on the street also show a frightening level of knowledge and absurd answers to the simplest questions.

 

If you asked 1000 random people in UK, US, Australia......and more, the question " name 4 countries that border Thailand?", how many would answer correctly?

 

If you asked "name 4 countries that border Brazil?", how many would answer correctly?

 

The most difficulty I've had in explaining historic or geographic facts is the concept of Great Britan and United Kingdom. Who was I trying to explain to??? Americans. That's not to say all Americans don't understand, it's just an example.

Edited June 10, 2023 by youreavinalaff

[marin]

38 minutes ago, petermik said:

Exactly...treat them as mushrooms kept in the dark and fed on rubbish....they don,t want the masses learning and asking awkward questions ????

Bingo. This is another reason the dinosaurs are so upset, the youth are waking up. My wife studied world geography and history in school 40 years ago. When I told her those subjects are no longer taught she did not believe me and went on a crusade to prove me wrong. She later said "sorry" you were right for perhaps the second time in my life. Indeed they were phased out with more emphasis put on Sangcome, the subject where Buddhism and regard for the Royalty is taught.  

[Chongalulu]

2 hours ago, BritManToo said:

I didn't know anyone in the UK who could speak a foreign language.

And French/German/Spanish in UK schools was a joke, I know I used to teach French and German.

That's a function of English being the default second language globally of nearly all countries. When they need to communicate with each other English is required . So with English as your native tongue what second language would be your obvious choice? There isn't one really. I learned French to A level and have mastered some very basic Thai just by being here,but in terms of the former it's never been of much use.

[Zapitapi]

5 hours ago, gomangosteen said:

History. Suggest you check what is currently taught in your country of origin's 2023 curriculum. 

I'd suggest it is vastly different than what the memories here are, relics of the 'empire' and old war stories. 

Barely relevant in 2023.

agreed.. in most countries teaching as a mediator to understanding shifted to teaching trough repetition ..sure there are outliers but in the vast minority

[Chongalulu]

I've noticed a fundamental intellectual laziness here, perhaps even beyond what you could blame on the obvious culprit of the insidious education system. I mean that despite the shortcomings of that, and too the social conditioning, Thais must know that the West is much more advanced and wealthier,so why aren't they curious to find out why, especially in the digital age where information is at their fingertips? 

Is it because they are kept, although suppressed, just comfortable enough not to become a nuisance to those that are reaping the benefits of a reasonably developing country? Why do they chose to remain blind to the obvious corruption that robs them of so much more? Apathy seems to be the default setting which I hope the younger generation can throw off,but significant political change will be required to enable that.

[Zapitapi]

i must say i have enjoyed this tread ..more of this is needed

[JimHuaHin]

Arrogance?  Yes, but also ...

 

As some earlier posts have noted - the need to keep the masses ignorant so that they can be controlled.

 

There is the conservative "accepted" Thai version of history, and then there are the ever-changing "contested" versions of history.

[fvw53]

19 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

I tend to agree and I think it goes further than that.  An ex who was not from Bangkok but lived and worked there, knew how to get to work and back, where to buy food and very little else in relation to the geography of the city she'd chosen to live in.  Regionally, she argued with me about Burma, denying it had any coastline.  I had to show her a map to prove it.

I think it was Napoleon who said that "history" are the lies on which everybody agrees (look how history is created during the Donald Trump period)

[StayinThailand2much]

Neither the Thai educational system, nor Thai students are interested in 'World History'. I base that on my year-long teaching experience in Thailand:

 

Interested in world affairs/European history:

- Thai students (particularly in the Thai educational system): perhaps 1%,

- Expat kids (from all corners of the world, incl. Asia), living in Thailand: more than 95%.

Edited June 10, 2023 by StayinThailand2much

[Tropposurfer]

Thai education system, US educations system ... different but same same.

[sabai-dee-man]

When my wife first moved to the UK in the early 2000s, she discovered The History Channel. Not only was she glued to it, but very often I'd see her crying when it came to event regarding Burma and Thailand. She went on to run a local ex-armed forces social club, and became engrossed in western history, particularly WWII as my grandad was a D-Day veteran, and most of the club members were ex-WWII RAF. They're not all dumbarses... sometimes they just need to be shown the way.

 

Edited June 10, 2023 by sabai-dee-man
Punctuation/added some info.

[moogradod]

3 hours ago, Tropposurfer said:

Thai education system, US educations system ... different but same same.

I have not really an idea about the US education system. Just heard that at times you may compensate your intellectual ability by being good at sports (baseball or similar).

 

But I went to school in Germany and Switzerland and I can assure you that a Diploma (called Matura) from a Swiss High School (allows for higher University studies worldwide) is lightyears apart from what they call here in Thailand a Matayom 6. I dare to say that because I know some people who have attained just such a Matayom 6.

 

For the Universities (Thai and worldwide) exist as well published evaluations. I do not recall that any of the Thai Universities stands out in that list. People who have money enough send their children abroad for study. I know some. So not really same same I think.

[Scott]

3 hours ago, Tropposurfer said:

Thai education system, US educations system ... different but same same.

History is usually taught from the perspective of the home country.  It's ethnocentric in nature.  I don't even recall much of anything being taught about World History in the Thai curriculum.  In the English department where I worked, we did teach World History, but it was somewhat hard to make it relevant to Thailand.  

We also taught Thai & Asian history, which the students seemed to take a little more interest in and was easier for them but the majority of students simply were not interested in history.  Western World History was a lot harder for them to understand.  They had to learn a lot of geography first.  

[Hummin]

Doesnt every country and world power have their head stuck up in their butt? Seriously, just the last 60 years of history, should convince everyone how we are driven when it comes to truths and lack of interest as well knownledge of conflicts and how much we really care!

 

Thailand have their take on it,

 

 

[Scott]

A post with an altered quote has been removed.  

[rickudon]

Knowledge of History, Geography and even Science is sadly lacking.

 

Very few people comprehend that the world as we know it today was shaped by events of the past - that famous quote "those who do not know history are destined to repeat it". Unfortunately even in the west people make bad decisions because they have little  understanding of WHY and WHAT motivates people in other countries.

 

In Thailand, my F-in-L has a wealth of skills and local knowledge, he knows many herbs etc. Unfortunately it is all learnt by watching others - not necessarily from those who were actually good themselves. As a result poor quality is perpetuated.

 

My personal experience here - i was trained in freshwater biology and some aquaculture. But when it comes to managing, stocking ponds with fish, the Thai family know best - so we get abysmal growth rates due to overstocking, never make a profit. I stock the right amount of fish, of the right types, 1 week later the wife puts in 3 times as many - but often will not tell me, so i have no idea what fish are in the water until i see/catch some..... I have largely given up after wasting thousands of baht. Just let them grow by themselves, get enough to feed family only.

[KhaoYai]

13 hours ago, BritManToo said:

But I suspect few western people know anything of Asian history either.

I did refer to that.  However, things like the Industrial Revolution and WW2 were world events and therefore form part of World History - i.e. How we got to where we are now and which events shaped today's world.

 

I'm pretty sure that had the Industrial Revolution started in Japan for example, that fact would be taught in Western/European schools.

 

But its much deeper than what is taught. Thai kids seem to spend a lot of time at school but in general, appear to learn very little and that's very sad.  Every kid in every country should receive the best education possible and I would suggest that Thailand is easily capable of providing a good educational standard.  However a teacher friend (foreigner) told me that he was told that he was not allowed to fail any kids, no matter how poor their work was.  The head's instructions were that 'nobody fails here'.

 

It is not surprising that so many Thai kids have very little general knowledge if they 'win when the lose'.  It seems that just getting that pass mark is much more important than having the actual knowledge. The 'face' thing again!!!

 

 

Edited June 10, 2023 by KhaoYai

[fusion58]

11 hours ago, marin said:

Indeed they were phased out with more emphasis put on Sangcome, the subject where Buddhism and regard for the Royalty is taught. 

And the general lack of knowledge in those subject areas is shocking as well - particularly for a country where you can't swing a cat without hitting a temple or a shrine.

[fusion58]

1 hour ago, rickudon said:

Knowledge of History, Geography and even Science is sadly lacking.

 

Very few people comprehend that the world as we know it today was shaped by events of the past - that famous quote "those who do not know history are destined to repeat it". Unfortunately even in the west people make bad decisions because they have little  understanding of WHY and WHAT motivates people in other countries.

 

In Thailand, my F-in-L has a wealth of skills and local knowledge, he knows many herbs etc. Unfortunately it is all learnt by watching others - not necessarily from those who were actually good themselves. As a result poor quality is perpetuated.

 

My personal experience here - i was trained in freshwater biology and some aquaculture. But when it comes to managing, stocking ponds with fish, the Thai family know best - so we get abysmal growth rates due to overstocking, never make a profit. I stock the right amount of fish, of the right types, 1 week later the wife puts in 3 times as many - but often will not tell me, so i have no idea what fish are in the water until i see/catch some..... I have largely given up after wasting thousands of baht. Just let them grow by themselves, get enough to feed family only.

It's not just the lack of knowledge; it's the total disinterest and complete lack of anything resembling intellectual curiosity that I find troubling.

 

I don't begrudge ignorance, mind you - particularly in those people who simply lack educational opportunities. Willful ignorance, however, is an entirely different story.

[AlfonsV]

12 hours ago, petermik said:

Exactly...treat them as mushrooms kept in the dark and fed on rubbish....they don,t want the masses learning and asking awkward questions ????

In an upcountry school a 15/16 y/o boy didn't dare to ask his teacher about an issue he didn't understand when he was sitting in the classroom. Because the question "WHY" would be taken as an offence and undermine the teacher's authority. This is respect for elders ad absurdum based on hundreds of years of strict social hierarchy.

[captpkapoor]

While this may be true of a lot of (even educated) Thais, in my almost 50 years of work in various countries as well as working alongside various nationalities, I can honestly say that I've come across many Western (even educated !) people with very poor knowledge of international geography, history, cultures, languages and origins. The average newspaper is full of extremely local news, with barely a page devoted to international news - and that's for those who even bother to read a paper. 

[BritManToo]

5 hours ago, captpkapoor said:

While this may be true of a lot of (even educated) Thais, in my almost 50 years of work in various countries as well as working alongside various nationalities, I can honestly say that I've come across many Western (even educated !) people with very poor knowledge of international geography, history, cultures, languages and origins. The average newspaper is full of extremely local news, with barely a page devoted to international news - and that's for those who even bother to read a paper. 

I'm not sure international news is that important to most people.

And as nearly everything in the media is manipulated propaganda of some sort, there's probably not all that much reason for anyone to want to see any of it.

 

Back to the OP,

The same applies to history.

Edited June 11, 2023 by BritManToo

[AlfonsV]

5 hours ago, captpkapoor said:

While this may be true of a lot of (even educated) Thais, in my almost 50 years of work in various countries as well as working alongside various nationalities, I can honestly say that I've come across many Western (even educated !) people with very poor knowledge of international geography, history, cultures, languages and origins. The average newspaper is full of extremely local news, with barely a page devoted to international news - and that's for those who even bother to read a paper. 

Nowadays you do not need newspapers any more to be informed.

 

[KhaoYai]

12 hours ago, captpkapoor said:

I can honestly say that I've come across many Western (even educated !) people with very poor knowledge of international geography, history, cultures, languages and origins.

I don't doubt that at all but in relation to Thailand, the lack of education, or interest in it appears to be endemic, almost cultural.  Over the years I've seen a few programmes on TV relating to education in Africa and what was portrayed was kids desperate to learn but in many cases being constrained by a lack of funds, infrastructure and teachers.  An apparent contrast compared to what we see in so many Thai kids.  Could there be a societal reason for that?

 

As I mentioned earlier, my English teacher mate was told by the head of his school that he could not fail pupils - everyone had to pass.  To me, that illustrates an attitude of eductation not being taken seriously - providing kids appear to have been educated, all is well.

 

We are all born with empty heads and learn from our family, friends and academically, at school as we grow.  If that learning includes the attitude that having educational certificates rather than the actual knowledge is the most important thing, it is maybe, not so difficult to understand the lack of interest by pupils. 

 

The influence of the Thai phenomenon of 'Face' in Thai society may have a large bearing on this matter.  I don't think that many Westerners appreciate just how much 'Face' affects many aspects of life in Thailand.  I have come across many Thai people who have more understanding of English for example, than they appear to have.  Many won't even attempt to speak English for fear of getting it wrong and appearing stupid.  When I've tried to explain that foreigners will not make fun of them for trying it soon becomes apparent that it is not foreigners that create that fear - its looking stupid in front of other Thais.

 

Explained using that perspective, it is possibly not so difficult to understand the apparent lack of interest in education amongst many Thai kids.  Whether that apparent lack of interest is real or just a fear of losing 'Face', could possibly be the question. When kids can obtain a 'pass' when they have not actually ingested the knowledge necessary to achieve it, its not surprising that they appear uninterested in learning. I suspect that stripped bare, Thai kids are no different to any others, it may well be societal influences that make them the way they are.

[AlfonsV]

1 hour ago, KhaoYai said:

I don't doubt that at all but in relation to Thailand, the lack of education, or interest in it appears to be endemic, almost cultural.  Over the years I've seen a few programmes on TV relating to education in Africa and what was portrayed was kids desperate to learn but in many cases being constrained by a lack of funds, infrastructure and teachers.  An apparent contrast compared to what we see in so many Thai kids.  Could there be a societal reason for that?

 

As I mentioned earlier, my English teacher mate was told by the head of his school that he could not fail pupils - everyone had to pass.  To me, that illustrates an attitude of eductation not being taken seriously - providing kids appear to have been educated, all is well.

 

We are all born with empty heads and learn from our family, friends and academically, at school as we grow.  If that learning includes the attitude that having educational certificates rather than the actual knowledge is the most important thing, it is maybe, not so difficult to understand the lack of interest by pupils. 

 

The influence of the Thai phenomenon of 'Face' in Thai society may have a large bearing on this matter.  I don't think that many Westerners appreciate just how much 'Face' affects many aspects of life in Thailand.  I have come across many Thai people who have more understanding of English for example, than they appear to have.  Many won't even attempt to speak English for fear of getting it wrong and appearing stupid.  When I've tried to explain that foreigners will not make fun of them for trying it soon becomes apparent that it is not foreigners that create that fear - its looking stupid in front of other Thais.

 

Explained using that perspective, it is possibly not so difficult to understand the apparent lack of interest in education amongst many Thai kids.  Whether that apparent lack of interest is real or just a fear of losing 'Face', could possibly be the question. When kids can obtain a 'pass' when they have not actually ingested the knowledge necessary to achieve it, its not surprising that they appear uninterested in learning. I suspect that stripped bare, Thai kids are no different to any others, it may well be societal influences that make them the way they are.

From my experience I completely agree. The fears about loosing face (teachers, children, parents, friends, neighbours) is a very big obstacle in this society. These fears are culturally and mentally so deep rooted that I am afraid they will "never" overcome.

Remark: in some schools you can pay for a certificate even you was absent half of the time.