Brexit was Johnson and Johnson was Brexit. Now that he has gone, Britain must think again

[brewsterbudgen]

9 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Would have thought job losses more to do with COVID restrictions that lasted 2 years.

Don't see how Brexit split any families.

Brit economy seems stronger than most of the EU countries.

Inflation is rampant everywhere.

Interest rates have always been 6-8%, if you were stupid enough to buy a house believing 1-2% would continue, I don't have much sympathy.

 

As far as I can see the only negative effect of Brexit (for the general Brit population) is it's harder to retire to Spain or France.

 

PS.

I'm not a Brexit supporter as I wanted to live in France, and now I can't.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jun/17/norwegian-roxy-music-album-cover-star-kari-ann-moller-fights-to-stay-in-uk-post-brexit

[nauseus]

17 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jun/17/norwegian-roxy-music-album-cover-star-kari-ann-moller-fights-to-stay-in-uk-post-brexit

Strange she never got UK/dual citizenship decades ago.

[RayC]

7 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I didn't even mention the Euro , let alone the UK using the Euro

You also didn't supply any evidence to support your conviction that the pound would suffer if the UK applied to rejoin the EU.

 

In fact, if the most recent countries to accede to the EU e.g. Croatia, Czechia, Hungary, etc are anything to go by, then then the only conclusion is that there is no clear pattern (Data is available on the ECB website).

[RayC]

7 hours ago, nauseus said:

Different.

Why?

[Eloquent pilgrim]

12 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

They want to keep voting until, they get the result they want , then that vote would be the last one

 

Indeed. I find it remarkable that some people are still wetting their pants about the result of a referendum that took place 7 years ago.

It was decided by a majority vote of the eligible electorate that chose to use their right to vote;  there will not be another referendum, despite all the squealing from those that only support democratic decisions when they align with their own opinion.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

14 hours ago, RayC said:

When the UK decides to rejoin the EU

The UK will not decide to rejoin the EU; so anything you say, or have said subsequently, is fantasising and completely and utterly pointless.

[Mike Teavee]

16 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

 

Indeed. I find it remarkable that some people are still wetting their pants about the result of a referendum that took place 7 years ago.

It was decided by a majority vote of the eligible electorate that chose to use their right to vote;  there will not be another referendum, despite all the squealing from those that only support democratic decisions when they align with their own opinion.

I personally thought Brexit was a bad idea BUT it's happened so we need to just get on with it & whilst I sort of would like us to "Rejoin" the EU I think the cost of entry would put us in a weaker position than we were before we left so don't think it's an option.

 

But on the subject of Brexit, I did find this funny... 

 

Brexiter blames skidmarks on Remainer plot to ruin his underpants

 

A die-hard Brexiter has today blamed his ruined underpants on a secret Remainer plot to deprive him of his underwear.

Derek Williams, a retired bench-warmer from Basingstoke, told us that he has had to throw out at least two pairs of underwear this week due to Remainers determined to stop him from having full autonomy over his undergarments.

He told us, “If I was given the freedom I wanted – no, the freedom I voted for – then my underpants would remain pristine from dawn until dusk. The fact they do not remain so is not due to any unrealistic expectation on my part, but because Remainers are ruining everything.

“And before you say it, yes, I’ve heard it all before – ‘your desire for perpetually clean underwear is a fantasy not based in reality’, but that simply ignores the fact that it is the will of the people – well, me – that it be so.

“It’s my democratic right to underwear that remains clean, and the fact that they are regularly stained by an imperfectly wiped <deleted> is obviously the work of hardcore Remainers who can not accept that they lost.

“They really need to get over it and leave my underpants alone.”

 

https://newsthump.com/2023/06/16/brexiter-blames-skidmarks-on-remainer-plot-to-ruin-his-underpants/

 

Edited June 18, 2023 by Mike Teavee

[sirineou]

20 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

whilst I sort of would like us to "Rejoin" the EU I think the cost of entry would put us in a weaker position than we were before we left so don't think it's an option.

Let me see if I understand this correctly.

Rejoining the EU would be (arguably) better for your country, but you will not do something that is better  for your country because you might not get the same deal you had before which (arguably) was a lot better. 

It sounds to me like the "Perfect being the enemy of the good" 

This is my personal opinion, (right or wrong)

Personally I think it is a matter of pride. And I am not saying this to be rude, I would also have the same pride issues. 

Also I think that the EU is better off without the UK, Not because the UK will not enhance the economics, and not because it will not straightened security, but simply  because without British interference the EU is more capable of making the nessacery integration  reforms to make the EU a better union. 

Edited June 18, 2023 by sirineou

[Mike Teavee]

19 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Let me see if I understand this correctly.

Rejoining the EU would be (arguably) better for your country, but you will not do something that is better  for your country because you might not get the same deal you had before which (arguably) was a lot better. 

It sounds to me like the "Perfect being the enemy of the good" 

This is my personal opinion, (right or wrong)

Personally I think it is a matter of pride. And I am not saying this to be rude, I would also have the same pride issues. 

Also I think that the EU is better off without the UK, Not because the UK will not enhance the economics, and not because it will not straightened security, but simply  because without British interference the EU is more capable of making the nessacery integration  reforms to make the EU a better union. 

No you misunderstood me... 

 

I would like things to (sort of be) the way they were before Brexit BUT I believe that if we were to go back into the EU, the UK's position would be weaker than it was before Brexit so if people weren't happy with how things were before 2016, then they're certainly not going to be happy with how things would be if we were to rejoin - E.g. I wouldn't want to rejoin the EU if it meant we had to adopt the Euro.

 

I think the EU "Project" is hampered more by the inclusion of (financially) weaker nations & will never be fully integrated whilst you have smaller countries like Hungary able to veto the plans of the other countries despite being a drain on the EU as a whole. 

 

 

 

Edited June 18, 2023 by Mike Teavee

[sirineou]

24 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

No you misunderstood me... 

 

I would like things to (sort of be) the way they were before Brexit BUT I believe that if we were to go back into the EU, the UK's position would be weaker than it was before Brexit so if people weren't happy with how things were before 2016, then they're certainly not going to be happy with how things would be if we were to rejoin - E.g. I personally wouldn't want to rejoin the EU if it meant we had to adopt the Euro.

 

I think the EU "Project" is hampered more by the inclusion of (financially) weaker nations & will never be fully integrated whilst you have smaller countries like Hungary able to veto the pland of the other countries despite being a drain on the EU as a whole. 

Perhaps I do 

But here is my thinking , I am sure people would not be happy not to have as much as they had before, I know I would not. But wouldn't they be happy to have more than they have now?

But there is a problem. To improve your situation you might have to go back, hat in hand and admit that you were wrong.(not you personify but as a country ) and that's a hard pill to swollen. 

I know I would not want such medicine until I was very ill. 

May I make an additional unrelated point? 

I watch interviews of both sides with people such as  Nigel Farage ,Ann Widdecombe  etc, in disbelief, as they claim that it's not Brexit that is failing,  but it's implementation, and I can't understand why someone  does not say to them,

"Let me understand, you are claiming that it's not brexit that failed, but that you are incompetent?"

Edited June 18, 2023 by sirineou

[Eloquent pilgrim]

53 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Let me see if I understand this correctly.

Rejoining the EU would be (arguably) better for your country, but you will not do something that is better  for your country because you might not get the same deal you had before which (arguably) was a lot better.

With respect, you do not understand it correctly.

Pointless arguments about whether or not it would be beneficial for the UK to rejoin the EU not withstanding, the decision to leave was made by a democratic referendum; it was a majority decision to leave, and there was no clause for a subsequent vote to try to overturn the result, or to rejoin at a later point in time. The issue of rejoining is only raised by people that still refuse to accept, rather than support, a democratic decision simply because it does not align with their own opinion and wishes.

[Mike Teavee]

14 minutes ago, sirineou said:

But here is my thinking , I am sure people would not be happy not to have as much as they had before, I know I would not. But wouldn't they be happy to have more than they have now?

I agree with that but in my mind there are some Red Lines that would mean even if we had more than we have now, the price is not worth paying - The obvious one is the loss of our own currency which would mean that we wouldn't have the same "Tools" to use in times of financial crisis (You only need to look at what happened with Greece, if they'd have still had the Drachma they would have been better equipped to respond their financial crisis)    

 

14 minutes ago, sirineou said:

"Let me understand, you are claiming that it's not brexit that failed, but that you are incompetent?"

Totally agree with the last part... But I think it was an ill-conceived / defined idea which when happened nobody had a clue as to how to implement it...

 

It's all well & good to talk about a "Hard Brexit" but the 1st question that should have been asked, even before having the vote, should have been "What do we do about Northern Ireland" & a "Hard Brexit" wouldn't answer it.

 

IMHO, they've still not come up with a sensible solution to NI & i don't believe they can as there isn't one that would satisfy all of the interested parties. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 18, 2023 by Mike Teavee

[vinny41]

10 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Perhaps I do 

But here is my thinking , I am sure people would not be happy not to have as much as they had before, I know I would not. But wouldn't they be happy to have more than they have now?

But there is a problem. To improve your situation you might have to go back, hat in hand and admit that you were wrong.(not you personify but as a country ) and that's a hard pill to swollen. 

I know I would not want such medicine until I was very ill. 

May I make an additional unrelated point? 

I watch interviews of both sides with people such as  Nigel Farage ,Ann Widdecombe  etc, in disbelief, as they claim that it's not Brexit that is failing,  but it's implementation, and I can't understand why someone  does not say to them,

"Let me understand, you are claiming that it's not brexit that failed, but that you are incompetent?"

I think you will find that neither Nigel Farage or Ann Widdecombe have ever been in a position where they played a major role in the implementation of Brexit so you can't really call them  incompetent

[sirineou]

1 minute ago, vinny41 said:

I think you will find that neither Nigel Farage or Ann Widdecombe have ever been in a position where they played a major role in the implementation of Brexit so you can't really call them  incompetent

First let me say that as an American I am not well versed in British politics, but why should that stop me from having a strong opinion.???? 

I ment their side being incompetent. And them personally by having a hand in choosing those who did the actual negotiating. 

 

[vinny41]

2 minutes ago, sirineou said:

First let me say that as an American I am not well versed in British politics, but why should that stop me from having a strong opinion.???? 

I ment their side being incompetent. And them personally by having a hand in choosing those who did the actual negotiating. 

 

Ann Widdecombe was a MP from 11 June 1987 – 12 April 2010 and  Nigel Farage has never been a MP and neither of them have been in a position of selecting who did the actual negotiating

I am not aware of anyone that is stopping you from voicing your opinion

[Eloquent pilgrim]

25 minutes ago, sirineou said:

First let me say that as an American I am not well versed in British politics, but why should that stop me from having a strong opinion.???? 

I ment their side being incompetent. And them personally by having a hand in choosing those who did the actual negotiating. 

 

Neither Ann Widdecombe or Nigel Farage had any hand whatsoever in choosing the Brexit negotiating team.

As you say, you are not well versed in British politics, but perfectly entitled to give your opinion, and I haven’t noticed anyone trying to stop you from so doing.

[nauseus]

9 hours ago, RayC said:

Why?

Because we'd be trying to rejoin, Sweden is already in. Previous membership would not make a difference. The EU has always wanted all members to use the Euro since its inception and I think that is a condition of any new memberships now.  

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, sirineou said:

Perhaps I do 

But here is my thinking , I am sure people would not be happy not to have as much as they had before, I know I would not. But wouldn't they be happy to have more than they have now?

But there is a problem. To improve your situation you might have to go back, hat in hand and admit that you were wrong.(not you personify but as a country ) and that's a hard pill to swollen. 

I know I would not want such medicine until I was very ill. 

May I make an additional unrelated point? 

I watch interviews of both sides with people such as  Nigel Farage ,Ann Widdecombe  etc, in disbelief, as they claim that it's not Brexit that is failing,  but it's implementation, and I can't understand why someone  does not say to them,

"Let me understand, you are claiming that it's not brexit that failed, but that you are incompetent?"

Someone cannot not say to them "let me understand, you are claiming that it's not Brexit that failed, but that you are incompetent?" because these people were not in a position of power to do anything differently. The mismanagement of Brexit is down to Theresa  (Lino) May and her beloved Ollie Robbins KCMG CB. The negotiations were weak to start with and then went south from there. Even Johnson knew that to "get Brexit done" there could be few deviations made from the useless so-called Chequers Agreement, else there would be another 5 more years of pissing about.

Edited June 18, 2023 by nauseus

[sirineou]

3 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Ann Widdecombe was a MP from 11 June 1987 – 12 April 2010 and  Nigel Farage has never been a MP and neither of them have been in a position of selecting who did the actual negotiating

I am not aware of anyone that is stopping you from voicing your opinion

Never claimed that anyone stop me from voicing my opinion.It was a joke, where is your farmhouse  british humor?

Of course they were not MPs but I would think they would have some influence in their party. And as far as I know were active proponents in the brexit movement. 

I should not have named specific people because I knew people would try to hang their hat on that, it is a common debating techniques and I should know better . My Bad,

So then lets just say then the conservatives were incompetent  then. 

[sirineou]

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Someone cannot not say to them "let me understand, you are claiming that it's not Brexit that failed, but that you are incompetent?"

Their party was

[nauseus]

27 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Their party was

Good. That is what Farage is saying too.

[Chomper Higgot]

21 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Starmer/Labour have publicly stated that they will not seek to re-join the E .U and Ed Davey has stated that the Lib/Dems are not a re-join the E.U party .

   I was speaking about the general opinion  of the British public , like, , we left the E.U and now just get on with it .

  

The UK rejoining the EU is not the issue that the next General Election will be fought on.

 

So why on earth would political leaders make statements wrt to rejoining?

 

 

[RayC]

7 hours ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

The UK will not decide to rejoin the EU; so anything you say, or have said subsequently, is fantasising and completely and utterly pointless.

You either didn't read or didn't understand this paragraph in my original post.

 

"(Please read the post to which I am replying before making any 'opinion not fact', 'predict the future', etc. replies?)"

 

Some "interesting" logic applied.

Edited June 18, 2023 by RayC
Addition

[RayC]

3 hours ago, nauseus said:

Because we'd be trying to rejoin, Sweden is already in. Previous membership would not make a difference. The EU has always wanted all members to use the Euro since its inception and I think that is a condition of any new memberships now.  

Nations aspiring to become EU members do not have to adopt the Euro from Day 1, merely commit to adopting it at some point. Therefore, the fact that we would be rejoining makes no difference; the same criteria for adopting the Euro apply to both existing and aspiring EU member states, namely: 1) Price stability 2) Sound and sustainable public finances 3) Exchange rate stability 4) Long-term interest rates.

 

I don't know which criterion(ia) Sweden fails to meet, but there appears plenty of scope for the a rejoining UK to 'fail' as well.

[RayC]

3 hours ago, nauseus said:

Someone cannot not say to them "let me understand, you are claiming that it's not Brexit that failed, but that you are incompetent?" because these people were not in a position of power to do anything differently. The mismanagement of Brexit is down to Theresa  (Lino) May and her beloved Ollie Robbins KCMG CB. The negotiations were weak to start with and then went south from there. Even Johnson knew that to "get Brexit done" there could be few deviations made from the useless so-called Chequers Agreement, else there would be another 5 more years of pissing about.

An alternative premise is that the negotiations conducted by May's government were not a failure. The deal she got was as good as it could have been, given the UK started in a weak negotiating position.

 

Can you give some specific examples of what the UK could have done differently during the negotiations, and how that would have lead to a more favourable outcome?

[transam]

Brexit wasn't Johnson, and Johnson wasn't Brexit, Johnson became PM and took over the mess made by May and her crew........

But of course now everything is blamed on Boris, what a surprise.....................

[nauseus]

23 minutes ago, RayC said:

Nations aspiring to become EU members do not have to adopt the Euro from Day 1, merely commit to adopting it at some point. Therefore, the fact that we would be rejoining makes no difference; the same criteria for adopting the Euro apply to both existing and aspiring EU member states, namely: 1) Price stability 2) Sound and sustainable public finances 3) Exchange rate stability 4) Long-term interest rates.

 

I don't know which criterion(ia) Sweden fails to meet, but there appears plenty of scope for the a rejoining UK to 'fail' as well.

Sounds good. 

[RayC]

7 hours ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

With respect, you do not understand it correctly.

Pointless arguments about whether or not it would be beneficial for the UK to rejoin the EU not withstanding, the decision to leave was made by a democratic referendum; it was a majority decision to leave, and there was no clause for a subsequent vote to try to overturn the result, or to rejoin at a later point in time. The issue of rejoining is only raised by people that still refuse to accept, rather than support, a democratic decision simply because it does not align with their own opinion and wishes.

So that's it? No matter if it becomes blindingly obvious that Brexit has made the country poorer - in every sense of the word - and/or opinion polls were to show, say, 70%+ support for rejoining, there's no going back?

 

I accept that a decision was made to leave and that has happened. However, in a democracy, I am perfectly at liberty to voice my opinion that I believe the decision to have damaged the country, and that the sooner we try to undo that damage (by rejoining) the better.

 

I have tried to support the decision to leave. I sometimes close my eyes and wish really, really hard that the US would sign a trade deal with us, and that the financial 'savings' in EU contributions will help improve services and infrastructure in the country. So far my efforts have been in vain. Must be my fault, I'm probably not praying long or hard enough 

[nauseus]

15 minutes ago, RayC said:

An alternative premise is that the negotiations conducted by May's government were not a failure. The deal she got was as good as it could have been, given the UK started in a weak negotiating position.

 

Can you give some specific examples of what the UK could have done differently during the negotiations, and how that would have lead to a more favourable outcome?

An impossible question to answer as the details were never made pubic. It is also impossible for you to say that "the deal she got was as good as it could have been". However, in order to get a better deal then a tougher stance should have been taken from the off; May pretended to be doing this but that was all mush.   

[candide]

13 minutes ago, nauseus said:

An impossible question to answer as the details were never made pubic. It is also impossible for you to say that "the deal she got was as good as it could have been". However, in order to get a better deal then a tougher stance should have been taken from the off; May pretended to be doing this but that was all mush.   

It is far from obvious that a "tougher stance" would have led to a better deal.