Freehold For Falang?

[siam-i-am]

According to this months Property report Thailand. "A draft regulationto to allow foreigners to buy homes in Vietnam when put into effect is likely to drive up demand and prices on the high end property market" Ngo Tri Long deputydirector under ministry of finance. This follows Malaysia and China allowing foreigners to purchase land. Will Thailand follow suit? or will it remain No can falang.

[Mid]

do some research on the meaning of Thailand ..................................

[lazeeboy]

do some research on the meaning of Thailand ..................................

if your'e an american you can own freehold of 1 rai as a residential plot, i dont think the rules in thailand will change in the near future

[Jingthing]

do some research on the meaning of Thailand ..................................

if your'e an american you can own freehold of 1 rai as a residential plot, i dont think the rules in thailand will change in the near future

Is this really true? I am skeptical.

[swissie]

To clarify: 1 Rai of land for Americans (US) or "Farangs" in general ???

[Maestro]

..allow foreigners to buy homes in Vietnam...Will Thailand follow suit? or will it remain No can falang.

The title (freehold) you gave your topic does not match the text in your post. As far as I know, foreigners have for a long time been allowed to buy homes (flats/apartments, houses) in Thailand.

--

Maestro

[JetsetBkk]

..allow foreigners to buy homes in Vietnam...Will Thailand follow suit? or will it remain No can falang.

The title (freehold) you gave your topic does not match the text in your post. As far as I know, foreigners have for a long time been allowed to buy homes (flats/apartments, houses) in Thailand.

--

Maestro

In case you are confused, the OP is talking about land, not houses.

http://www.thaivisa.com/buy_land_thailand.0.html

Thai property law states that with a few exceptions, like a Board of Investment approval or suitcases full of money deposited in a Thai bank, foreigners are not allowed to own freehold land.

[LaoPo]

According to this months Property report Thailand. "A draft regulationto to allow foreigners to buy homes in Vietnam when put into effect is likely to drive up demand and prices on the high end property market" Ngo Tri Long deputydirector under ministry of finance. This follows Malaysia and China allowing foreigners to purchase land. Will Thailand follow suit? or will it remain No can falang.

As far as I'm informed land in China is ALSO on lease; not freehold; I think it's 90 years but could be wrong. I can check if you wish.

LaoPo

[Old Man River]

..allow foreigners to buy homes in Vietnam...Will Thailand follow suit? or will it remain No can falang.

The title (freehold) you gave your topic does not match the text in your post. As far as I know, foreigners have for a long time been allowed to buy homes (flats/apartments, houses) in Thailand.

--

Maestro

In case you are confused, the OP is talking about land, not houses.

http://www.thaivisa.com/buy_land_thailand.0.html

Thai property law states that with a few exceptions, like a Board of Investment approval or suitcases full of money deposited in a Thai bank, foreigners are not allowed to own freehold land.

The written law does allow a foreigner to inherit up to one rai of land for residential purposes. I have checked with two attorneys and one confirmed with the Land Dept. (in Bangkok) that this is how they would rule and the other says in crunch time don't bet on it.

[Maestro]

In case you are confused, the OP is talking about land, not houses.

If I am confused it must be because I have the strange habit of assuming that a poster means that what he writes.

...allow foreigners to buy homes in Vietnam...

I know that “freehold” (mentioned in the title) includes the land but “home” does not, nor do we know from the OP’s post whether Vietnam does indeed allow foreigners to buy land.

--

Maestro

[bendix]

Sometimes a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. People put half-truths up here, and they're accepted as gospel.

Not only americans but ANY foreign national can own up to one rai of land for residential purposes, providing they invest (i think it's) 40 million baht in government bonds and keep that investment therein.

People can also INHERIT land from their spouse, but they need to divest of it within a year of inheriting it.

[Old Man River]

Sometimes a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. People put half-truths up here, and they're accepted as gospel.

Not only americans but ANY foreign national can own up to one rai of land for residential purposes, providing they invest (i think it's) 40 million baht in government bonds and keep that investment therein.

People can also INHERIT land from their spouse, but they need to divest of it within a year of inheriting it.

Not according to the Land Code. You work for a law firm. Check it out.

[bendix]

Point me to the statute, and I'll happily go check in our library. And will gladly admit I'm wrong if, indeed, I am.

[steveromagnino]

Point me to the statute, and I'll happily go check in our library. And will gladly admit I'm wrong if, indeed, I am.

There is a nice statute on my lawn; I think it is a nome. But I cannot tell you if you have a statute in your library, it will depend on feng shui and ceiling height.

Based on past posts, you are probably wrong. In some way. Beyond a reasonable doubt.. the price of mercy is not strained, it blah blah blah.

[bendix]

Based on past posts blah blah blah. Steve, the collective wisdom in this room would barely fill the back of a postage stamp. Writing with a magic marker. In very big letters.

Of course . . . i could be wrong but even when I'm wrong, I'm wrong in such a good way that I might as well be right.

PS . what the hel_l is a falang? Do people have to transliterate bargirls' pronunciation difficulties? It's farang, people. With an 'r'. For rocket.

Edited July 11, 2007 by bendix

[Old Man River]

Point me to the statute, and I'll happily go check in our library. And will gladly admit I'm wrong if, indeed, I am.

You made the comment that "people can also INHERIT land from their spouse, but they need to divest it within a year of inheriting it". What I am waiting for is the section of the Land Code (or elsewhere) that you were quoting when you said the land has to be divested within one year.

[bendix]

Point me to the statute, and I'll happily go check in our library. And will gladly admit I'm wrong if, indeed, I am.

You made the comment that "people can also INHERIT land from their spouse, but they need to divest it within a year of inheriting it". What I am waiting for is the section of the Land Code (or elsewhere) that you were quoting when you said the land has to be divested within one year.

Happy to oblige.

http://www.samuiforsale.com/Inheritance.htm

There is also plenty of discussion about this subject elsewhere on the forum.

Or try this:

Q: If his Thai wife dies, can a foreign husband inherit land and possessions that she owned?

A: By law, a foreigner is allowed to be his spouse’s executor. All non-land properties, legally allocated in the will can belong to any national. However in the matter of land, the law allows the foreigner to legally take possession of the land only for a period of one year during which the foreigner must either transfer the deed to a Thai national, or set up a company which controls the land. But, in practice, the Land Office usually allows the foreigner to possess it only for a shorter period. That might cause trouble when transferring ownership to a new buyer. It is strongly recommended that foreigners should sell the land within 180 days after getting possession to avoid difficulty in transferring ownership to a new owner.

This information is courtesy of Legal and Business Association, call xxx xxxxxxx

[Heng]

People "say" Section 93, but I've never read it myself so don't know if it really includes a 'must divest' clause.

ah... Brembo beat me to it.

Edited July 11, 2007 by Heng

[bendix]

All the information I've seen takes it a stage further. Land ownership by a farang upon inheritance depends upon approval from the Minister of Interior. This has NEVER been given. As such, even a year is 'liberal'. Either way, it still MUST be divested within a year. Divested in this instance means sold to a Thai or acquired by a company.

The same applies to inheriting condos in situations where OVER 49% are already farang owned.

I have asked a property law partner in my place to confirm this.

[bendix]

Update - this view has been endorsed by the head of the property law department at Baker & McKenzie who writes: "A foreigner cannot own land inherited from his spouse. The foreigner will be required to dispose of the land within a certain period (I am not sure if it's within 6 months or one year). In practice, the Land Office will not allow the land to be registered under the foreigner's name anyway."

[Old Man River]

All the information I've seen takes it a stage further. Land ownership by a farang upon inheritance depends upon approval from the Minister of Interior. This has NEVER been given. As such, even a year is 'liberal'. Either way, it still MUST be divested within a year. Divested in this instance means sold to a Thai or acquired by a company.

The same applies to inheriting condos in situations where OVER 49% are already farang owned.

I have asked a property law partner in my place to confirm this.

Now that is what I was looking for. The legal opinion I have from one of Bangkok's finest (perhaps your law firm) did not find anything written which specifically limits the time period an alien can hold land gained through inheritance. However, attorneys can make mistakes.

Opinions aside, unlike many on TV, I don't post things related to legal issues that I haven't already checked out with my attorneys. The way Thai law works, there is no common law. If it is prohibited, it would show up in writing somewhere.

You say that it depends on approval from the Minister of Interior and that he has NEVER given this permission. Again, that isn't necessarily true, but looks good on TV. The fact is, at least according to the Competent Authority at Bangkok's Land Dept., in practice the minister is never asked. The CA said the law is written so as to be polite to the prevailing minister, who is really not part of the permission process. Of course this could change and was based on advice of that CA given to my Thai attorney, but based on this information, I would never say NEVER.

However, as discussed, approval by the CA at the Land Dept. is only half the equation, the other half being a codified law specifically stating that aliens must divest within one year. This is why, since you made the statement that there is a time period, I thought you could quote the relevant statute. If your attorney can, that would be value added.

[Old Man River]

Update - this view has been endorsed by the head of the property law department at Baker & McKenzie who writes: "A foreigner cannot own land inherited from his spouse. The foreigner will be required to dispose of the land within a certain period (I am not sure if it's within 6 months or one year). In practice, the Land Office will not allow the land to be registered under the foreigner's name anyway."

Bendix, I have used B&M before in BKK and have a lot of respect for them, but as your attorney knows, unless it is codified or based on a supreme court decision, it does not mean it is the law. If it based on one judge's decision, that would only pertain to that case and would not hold true for succeeding cases.

Does the head of the property law department know the relevant statute? If he does, I can get a copy. Right now, I have one attorney from an international law firm opining there is no time limit and another opining there is. Hence, my pursuing this with you.

[Carmine6]

On the 1 rai, here's the English interpretation of the code from the Department of Land:

"... However, the Land Code has been amended with Section 96 bis providing that since January 19th, 2002, an alien is allowed to purchase land in Thailand for residential purpose and the land to be purchased shall be not more than one rai in area, and the following rules and conditions must be met:

1. Bringing money not less than Baht forty million into the Kingdom for investment and maintaining the investment not less that five years;

2. Permission must be obtained from the Minister of Ministry of Interior;

3. Money brought into the Kingdom shall be invested in one of the following businesses or activities; "

......

4. the land to be acquired shall be located in Bangkok Metropolis, Pattaya City, or Tessaban (Municipality), or in the area specified as residential zone according to the law on Town and Country...."

If you are granted permission, then fail to comply with requirements you have between 180 days and 1 year to sell the land. (This period is not related to the one year being discussed above.)

http://www.dol.go.th/guide/land_080745_eng.htm

http://www.dol.go.th/eng_version/menu.php

Edited July 12, 2007 by Carmine6

[Old Man River]

On the 1 rai, here's the English interpretation of the code from the Department of Land:

"... However, the Land Code has been amended with Section 96 bis providing that since January 19th, 2002, an alien is allowed to purchase land in Thailand for residential purpose and the land to be purchased shall be not more than one rai in area, and the following rules and conditions must be met:

1. Bringing money not less than Baht forty million into the Kingdom for investment and maintaining the investment not less that five years;

2. Permission must be obtained from the Minister of Ministry of Interior;

3. Money brought into the Kingdom shall be invested in one of the following businesses or activities; "

......

4. the land to be acquired shall be located in Bangkok Metropolis, Pattaya City, or Tessaban (Municipality), or in the area specified as residential zone according to the law on Town and Country...."

If you are granted permission, then fail to comply with requirements you have between 180 days and 1 year to sell the land. (This period is not related to the one year being discussed above.)

http://www.dol.go.th/guide/land_080745_eng.htm

http://www.dol.go.th/eng_version/menu.php

Thanks Carmine. What I am trying to find out for estate planning purposes is whether the often quoted opinion that an alien can inherit land but must dispose of it within one year is based on codified law. What I am sure of is that section 93 of the Land Code allows an alien to inherit land up to one year with the amount of land being limited by section 87 to not more than one rai for residential purposes.

My attorney has advised that there is no time limit, but attorneys make mistakes like everyone else. Therefore, since the prevailing opinion by many (as well as B&M - thanks Bendix) is that there is a time limitation, it would be nice to know where this limitation is written. So far, nobody has been able to offer this. If it isn't in the Land code, then perhaps it is somewhere else and in the context of something else with the assumption that it covers inheritances. Perhaps it does, and I would be happy to stand corrected if someone could come up with the appropriate law covering this.

OK, I realize that it is probably academic as none of us will outlive our wives anyway, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't plan as best as possible for our future.

[bendix]

I'll see what I can find. I'll get our library people onto it, but as you will know OMR, law in practice is generally a mixture of codified statute and common law opinion and interpretation. I suspect this issue might be the latter.

We do know that in law farang can inherit property. We also know that in practice the Land Office will not allow a foreigner to register land ownership except if he/she meets certain conditions already outlined. I suspect the actual practice (and, thus, the law) is a practical compromise between the two.

Either way, i would suspect that - codified or not - the area is sufficiently grey as not to base too much emphasis on it for estate planning purposes.

[Old Man River]

I'll see what I can find. I'll get our library people onto it, but as you will know OMR, law in practice is generally a mixture of codified statute and common law opinion and interpretation. I suspect this issue might be the latter.

We do know that in law farang can inherit property. We also know that in practice the Land Office will not allow a foreigner to register land ownership except if he/she meets certain conditions already outlined. I suspect the actual practice (and, thus, the law) is a practical compromise between the two.

Either way, i would suspect that - codified or not - the area is sufficiently grey as not to base too much emphasis on it for estate planning purposes.

Too date, I haven't followed the advice of the attorney I hired for this purpose as it seems too good to be true. The law firm I am now using agrees with your attorney and this is probably the right way to go to be prudent.

Thai law is purposely gray. If it isn't codified (written) then it isn't law and therefore up to the judge on each case to make the decision. There are no precedents created by any judge's decision, except for decisions made by the supreme court. This keeps it gray as each judge is left to interpret the same written law as they view it.

As it pertains to aliens inheriting property, I have yet to find out if the prevailing opinion is based written law, on one judge's decision in a directly related case, or one judge's decision in an unrelated case. Since too many people say the same thing, it is out there somewhere and it would be nice to put this to bed once and for all.

[Carmine6]

Thanks Carmine. What I am trying to find out for estate planning purposes is whether the often quoted opinion that an alien can inherit land but must dispose of it within one year is based on codified law. What I am sure of is that section 93 of the Land Code allows an alien to inherit land up to one year with the amount of land being limited by section 87 to not more than one rai for residential purposes.

My attorney has advised that there is no time limit, but attorneys make mistakes like everyone else. Therefore, since the prevailing opinion by many (as well as B&M - thanks Bendix) is that there is a time limitation, it would be nice to know where this limitation is written. So far, nobody has been able to offer this. If it isn't in the Land code, then perhaps it is somewhere else and in the context of something else with the assumption that it covers inheritances. Perhaps it does, and I would be happy to stand corrected if someone could come up with the appropriate law covering this.

OK, I realize that it is probably academic as none of us will outlive our wives anyway, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't plan as best as possible for our future.

Yeah, I was just clarifying the 1 rai, not the time limit.

Could it be Section 19 of the Condominium Act that is the genesis of the 1 year limit? Can't paste it because the website won't allow copy, but it's the link Bendix posted. http://www.samuiforsale.com/Rights_Inheritance.htm

Given the varying opinions, it's likely there's no actual limit stated elsewhere for land . But given this limit, it's easy to make the mental jump. I'll happily cheer on anyone wishing to be the test case for land not related to a condominium.

Even better source, bottom of the page. Looks to be actual text. http://www.bangkokbob.net/condominium.htm

Edited July 12, 2007 by Carmine6

[Old Man River]

Thanks Carmine. What I am trying to find out for estate planning purposes is whether the often quoted opinion that an alien can inherit land but must dispose of it within one year is based on codified law. What I am sure of is that section 93 of the Land Code allows an alien to inherit land up to one year with the amount of land being limited by section 87 to not more than one rai for residential purposes.

My attorney has advised that there is no time limit, but attorneys make mistakes like everyone else. Therefore, since the prevailing opinion by many (as well as B&M - thanks Bendix) is that there is a time limitation, it would be nice to know where this limitation is written. So far, nobody has been able to offer this. If it isn't in the Land code, then perhaps it is somewhere else and in the context of something else with the assumption that it covers inheritances. Perhaps it does, and I would be happy to stand corrected if someone could come up with the appropriate law covering this.

OK, I realize that it is probably academic as none of us will outlive our wives anyway, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't plan as best as possible for our future.

Yeah, I was just clarifying the 1 rai, not the time limit.

Could it be Section 19 of the Condominium Act that is the genesis of the 1 year limit? Can't paste it because the website won't allow copy, but it's the link Bendix posted. http://www.samuiforsale.com/Rights_Inheritance.htm

Given the varying opinions, it's likely there's no actual limit stated elsewhere for land . But given this limit, it's easy to make the mental jump. I'll happily cheer on anyone wishing to be the test case for land not related to a condominium.

Thanks Carmine. The one area of the Samuiforsale interpretation that appear wrong is the issue relating to the minister. I have read the actual code and it doesn't state what the link states. This was confirmed by my attorney's discussion with the Competent Authority of the Land Dept. in Bangkok. Of course, perhaps the CA that covers Samui has come up with an entirely different view from the code. Such is Thai law.

[Carmine6]

Thanks Carmine. What I am trying to find out for estate planning purposes is whether the often quoted opinion that an alien can inherit land but must dispose of it within one year is based on codified law. What I am sure of is that section 93 of the Land Code allows an alien to inherit land up to one year with the amount of land being limited by section 87 to not more than one rai for residential purposes.

My attorney has advised that there is no time limit, but attorneys make mistakes like everyone else. Therefore, since the prevailing opinion by many (as well as B&M - thanks Bendix) is that there is a time limitation, it would be nice to know where this limitation is written. So far, nobody has been able to offer this. If it isn't in the Land code, then perhaps it is somewhere else and in the context of something else with the assumption that it covers inheritances. Perhaps it does, and I would be happy to stand corrected if someone could come up with the appropriate law covering this.

OK, I realize that it is probably academic as none of us will outlive our wives anyway, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't plan as best as possible for our future.

Yeah, I was just clarifying the 1 rai, not the time limit.

Could it be Section 19 of the Condominium Act that is the genesis of the 1 year limit? Can't paste it because the website won't allow copy, but it's the link Bendix posted. http://www.samuiforsale.com/Rights_Inheritance.htm

Given the varying opinions, it's likely there's no actual limit stated elsewhere for land . But given this limit, it's easy to make the mental jump. I'll happily cheer on anyone wishing to be the test case for land not related to a condominium.

Thanks Carmine. The one area of the Samuiforsale interpretation that appear wrong is the issue relating to the minister. I have read the actual code and it doesn't state what the link states. This was confirmed by my attorney's discussion with the Competent Authority of the Land Dept. in Bangkok. Of course, perhaps the CA that covers Samui has come up with an entirely different view from the code. Such is Thai law.

Hm, well the Bangkokbob website has the same text so they're likely pulling the info from the same mistaken source.

[Old Man River]

Thanks Carmine. What I am trying to find out for estate planning purposes is whether the often quoted opinion that an alien can inherit land but must dispose of it within one year is based on codified law. What I am sure of is that section 93 of the Land Code allows an alien to inherit land up to one year with the amount of land being limited by section 87 to not more than one rai for residential purposes.

My attorney has advised that there is no time limit, but attorneys make mistakes like everyone else. Therefore, since the prevailing opinion by many (as well as B&M - thanks Bendix) is that there is a time limitation, it would be nice to know where this limitation is written. So far, nobody has been able to offer this. If it isn't in the Land code, then perhaps it is somewhere else and in the context of something else with the assumption that it covers inheritances. Perhaps it does, and I would be happy to stand corrected if someone could come up with the appropriate law covering this.

OK, I realize that it is probably academic as none of us will outlive our wives anyway, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't plan as best as possible for our future.

Yeah, I was just clarifying the 1 rai, not the time limit.

Could it be Section 19 of the Condominium Act that is the genesis of the 1 year limit? Can't paste it because the website won't allow copy, but it's the link Bendix posted. http://www.samuiforsale.com/Rights_Inheritance.htm

Given the varying opinions, it's likely there's no actual limit stated elsewhere for land . But given this limit, it's easy to make the mental jump. I'll happily cheer on anyone wishing to be the test case for land not related to a condominium.

Thanks Carmine. The one area of the Samuiforsale interpretation that appear wrong is the issue relating to the minister. I have read the actual code and it doesn't state what the link states. This was confirmed by my attorney's discussion with the Competent Authority of the Land Dept. in Bangkok. Of course, perhaps the CA that covers Samui has come up with an entirely different view from the code. Such is Thai law.

Hm, well the Bangkokbob website has the same text so they're likely pulling the info from the same mistaken source.

I have picked the info below off of a 2004 posting here on TV:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SECTION 93 OF THE LAND CODE

"The Minister shall permit the inheritance of land by an ALIEN who is the LAWFUL heir, but such acquisition, when added to that which is already held, my not exceed the amount which may be held under SECTION 87."

SECTION 87 OF THE LAND CODE

For residential purposes, an ALIEN may own 1 Rai.

In the event that you do NOT get the Minister's approval under SECTION 93, SECTION 94 comes into play.

SECTION 94 OF THE LAND CODE

"All land which an ALIEN has acquired unlawfully or without permission shall be disposed of by such ALIEN within the time limit prescribed by the Director-General, which shall not be less than 180 days, nor more than 1 year.

If the land is not disposed of within the time prescribed, the Director-General shall have the power to dispose of it."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The issue, then, is whether the minister has to give permission or whether it is as stated by the Bangkok Land Dept.'s Competent Authority that the wording of the code of that : "the Minister shall permit ..." is the way Thai law is written to show courtesy to the minister at that time, but in practice, the minister's permission is not needed and is never sought. Other than the interpretation of the Competent Authority at the time when you want to inherit the land, I don't think there is anything else in Thai law that covers this.

Given the CA's explanation, I would imagine there are several alien's who have gone through this process successfully, but of course this is an interpretation and therefore always subject to change. A 30 year appears to be the only safe way to go.